Long Game 84: A Sel United

[Experience]

Just now, Kasimir said:

So you presumably claim you are withholding reason for a reason, yet this is unacceptable from others?

I too, would like to know both why Striker is voting (I suspect it's his thing about ties), and why you are doing what you do, but the inherent double standards here does beggar belief.

Good point actually, I guess I am contradicting myself. 

And I'm not going to reveal yet, so feel free to not reveal ya'lls either  

[Kasimir]

Here's the current state of my thoughts.

It still looks more like bait to me. I'm not ruling out that Exp is more in the vein of MR56 E!Archer, but from the looks of it, I still regard Devo's response as being so textbook and rigid that I'm almost inclined to wonder if this is a failed projection from E!Devo of what a Villager would do in response to an RP Elim claim.

I still think that the precedent of such claims in this context, and the history of players wanting in particular to do such things with RP should give anyone pause, particularly when a player with Exp's profile does such a thing.

And like, suppose as Devo thinks that it's some kind of E!Exp gambit. I don't see this really winning hardcore trust - at least not from me. He just gets a squint and an annoyed grunt while I move on. So what's it supposed to be then? What's the point of it, from E!Exp's perspective?

Part of me feels like I'm smacking down a wth vote on Devo. But I admit her vote just doesn't feel right to me, and this is the best sense I can make of why I dislike it. I'm just going to leave my thoughts here for comments, help, and move on.

@Experience - Other question for you: why single out Striker for his vote, and not Araris, who threw down the first naked vote on Devo, given in particular your history of gut paranoia on Araris?

[Experience]

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Other question for you: why single out Striker for his vote, and not Araris, who threw down the first naked vote on Devo, given in particular your history of gut paranoia on Araris?

Uhh. Probably because I didn't notice it, and I was also looking through why people were voting devo and then striker voted so I kinda just asked him then. 

[Mat]

Sorry for being so disengaged this game.

I think that Exp’s claim is NAI since it was likely was devised in their Empire doc and Aman is in that Empire doc  But disregarding that I’ve gotten a village feel from his explanations on this page.

[Kasimir]

41 minutes ago, Bort said:

What changed in the past year?

 

I really dislike this and it's tripping red flags for me.

Bort could've been playing up unfamiliarity with the current meta in MR57:

But I'm aware that he did display some unfamiliarity with more recently adopted terminology, such as PoE and thunderdome (which interestingly enough, shows up in LG74 and LG75, so right around the same period. Here's a sample:

Honestly, thunderdome appears way too often in LG75, I'm not even gonna bother beyond this point >>

It's not implausible that someone in Bort's Empire doc brought it up, and/or that Bort did a search into Araris's play history, in which case, good job for the effort. But given that as far as I'm aware, Bort was not active in 2021 SE and his return to activity only came this year in LG83 (welcome back, once again!  ), I'm finding it strange that Bort pulls this game out casually, and I'm wondering if it's the sort of thing an Evil doc mate might point out. (Because why wouldn't an Empire mate just intervene or say this?)

FWIW, I'm not really fond of the argument either, because I think it greatly ignores context. Bort is @ing Araris for challenging D1 pokevotes in a game not particularly plagued by inactivity by citing D3 in a game with inactivity in which Araris does in fact have to threaten voting, and is planning on going CC, which is a whole different ballpark from raw poke-voting.

For context for those who lack it, early 2021 in particular involved a number of times where players had to fish for low activity Elims and CC was the main way to do it. [Edited to add: IMO, LG73 is the classic case: TUA and Lotus and Connie weren't completely inactive but you just had to grit your teeth and commit to the low activity train.] I don't want to rehash CC arguments so I'm just going to summarise my views - CC generally doesn't work, and requires very specific conditions for it to be helpful. It doesn't work on true inactives and relies on the thought that you can go fishing for Elim lurkers, or at least bait their teammates out into a defense. Often, CC, especially combined with poke voting, is an excellent way to appear involved and engaged without having to actually do analytical work, and therefore I am in fact at least a bit suspicious of players engaging in CC without paying attention to the conditions.

I'm seriously tempted to just swap to Bort now.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Kasimir

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

24 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I still think that the precedent of such claims in this context, and the history of players wanting in particular to do such things with RP should give anyone pause, particularly when a player with Exp's profile does such a thing.

And like, suppose as Devo thinks that it's some kind of E!Exp gambit. I don't see this really winning hardcore trust - at least not from me. He just gets a squint and an annoyed grunt while I move on. So what's it supposed to be then? What's the point of it, from E!Exp's perspective?

You just have a better memory than me. I didn't think of Exp as that type of player, but having looked through some of the 156 pages of content I do see an elim claim as a villager in BT1.

More of a possibly forgetting the rules and the sense that the only way this could possibly be helpful as a village move is if it's brought up.

8 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I think that Exp’s claim is NAI since it was likely was devised in their Empire doc and Aman is in that Empire doc

Why would that be your assumption? You think four other people said yes, let's have one of our members claim elim and see what happens when presumably the villagers in that doc would have no idea as to Exp's real alignment?

[Mat]

1 minute ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Why would that be your assumption? You think four other people said yes, let's have one of our members claim elim and see what happens when presumably the villagers in that doc would have no idea as to Exp's real alignment?

Yep.

 

[Kasimir]

13 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I think that Exp’s claim is NAI since it was likely was devised in their Empire doc and Aman is in that Empire doc  But disregarding that I’ve gotten a village feel from his explanations on this page.

You can just say you're that one Teoish who voted against transparency, you know  

[Mat]

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

You can just say you're that one Teoish who voted against transparency, you know  

I could, but that’d be a lie  

[Araris Valerian]

54 minutes ago, Bort said:

What changed in the past year?

 

Pretty sure the circumstances are very different there, the least being that my vote was on D3, when it's pretty pathetic if all I can muster up is a poke vote. But the more important thing i that there's nothing particularly wrong with moving a vote from one player to another. But if a player can consistently get you to unvote them by posting fluff, why bother voting at all?

I'll also echo Kas in that it's a bit weird this came to your mind when my own memory of that cycle is pretty much non-existent, but since I am definitely a proponent of reading old SE games, I will also choose to ignore that for now.

[Bort]

It's pretty simple.

One thing I do remember from back in the day is the Contribution Crusade, so I went and looked for the last time Araris posted about it, and it was only last year that he supported it. (His only other more recent post was defining 'CC' in another thread - you can go and search out his posts for yourself). But, taking it in context actually makes me suspicious of Araris, since in that game, the Crusade was in response to inactive players.

This game, I've been poking players who haven't checked into the thread yet, trying to encourage activity. Why would you have a problem with that?

Edit:

Yeah, now I have an actual suspicion, Shadow, Araris

• Thaidakar the Ghostblood (3): Matrim's Dice, Archer, Baker
• Matrim's Dice (1): Amanuensis
• Devotary of Spontaneity (3): Araris Valerian, Kasimir, Striker
• Archer (1): Experience
• Experience (2): Thaidakar the Ghostblood, Devotary
• Araris (1): Bort

Edited April 3, 2022 by Bort

[Araris Valerian]

59 minutes ago, Bort said:

This game, I've been poking players who haven't checked into the thread yet, trying to encourage activity. Why would you have a problem with that?

Mostly because you haven't actually accomplished your goal. Tani hasn't contributed anything worthwhile, and that's the distinction I'm trying to emphasize here.

[Bort]

Just now, Araris Valerian said:

Mostly because you haven't actually accomplished your goal. Tani hasn't contributed anything worthwhile, and that's the distinction I'm trying to emphasize here.

I know, but it's day one. At this stage of the game, just being active is enough for me. Don't get me wrong, I'd have preferred something constructive, but I know I'm not great at day one analysis, so I don't expect too much from others. If it was a D3 CC, I'd be trying for better than that.

That game of yours that I quoted was suffering from a major inactivity problem. My poke votes on day one serve as a reminder that the game has started, something I'm hoping helps prevent that kind of situation from happening to begin with.

[Experience]

I like the bucket idea so I'm stealing it.

Good Bucket:

Spoiler

• Mat: D1 village bro ftw. Think his reaction to my claim is NAI tho.
• Aman: Empire interaction yay
• Devo: Reaction to my claim seemed pretty pure, so village for now. 

Null Bucket:

Spoiler

• Thaid: I fail to read Thaid ever, so Null for now. Feel like they are a pretty easy ML, but their reactions to votes this turn were def a bit different than normal so idk.
• JNV: Did the simulation, but imo that's NAI though much appreciated. Other stuff but don't remember.
• Striker: Thaid vote seemed eh but whatev
• Archer: I voted on earlier, but he's up to null, leaning slight vil gut.
• Illwei: Hasn't posted
• Baker: Only voted Thaid so far, but new player so won't vote them this turn.
• Sibling: Hasn't posted
• Bort: Confused about Bort-Araris interaction
• Tani: Posted but was really nothing.
• Kas: Some pretty good thoughts, but leaving null for now. Slight vil gut lean.
• Araris: Staying off of him for the first turn, as I always tunnel him for some reason.
• Orlok: Hasn't posted
• Shadow: Hasn't posted
• TJ: Hasn't posted

Bad Bucket:

Spoiler

None for now

I'm pretty sure all the people I put as Hasn't posted haven't yet posted, but correct me if I missed anyone. Some connection with Bort/Araris/Kas together, but need to think more about it. @Tani, do you have any new thoughts about the game? Tani (Archer)

Why does my brain want to vote Araris so bad xD. It's so hard to resist.

[---]

Hey I've posted 3 times >:(

[Kasimir]

Just now, Illwei said:

Hey I've posted 3 times >:(

Clear Eiwlil erasure there!

[Araris Valerian]

1 hour ago, Experience said:

I like the bucket idea so I'm stealing it.

Good Bucket:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Mat: D1 village bro ftw. Think his reaction to my claim is NAI tho.
• Aman: Empire interaction yay
• Devo: Reaction to my claim seemed pretty pure, so village for now. 

Null Bucket:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Thaid: I fail to read Thaid ever, so Null for now. Feel like they are a pretty easy ML, but their reactions to votes this turn were def a bit different than normal so idk.
• JNV: Did the simulation, but imo that's NAI though much appreciated. Other stuff but don't remember.
• Striker: Thaid vote seemed eh but whatev
• Archer: I voted on earlier, but he's up to null, leaning slight vil gut.
• Illwei: Hasn't posted
• Baker: Only voted Thaid so far, but new player so won't vote them this turn.
• Sibling: Hasn't posted
• Bort: Confused about Bort-Araris interaction
• Tani: Posted but was really nothing.
• Kas: Some pretty good thoughts, but leaving null for now. Slight vil gut lean.
• Araris: Staying off of him for the first turn, as I always tunnel him for some reason.
• Orlok: Hasn't posted
• Shadow: Hasn't posted
• TJ: Hasn't posted

Bad Bucket:

  Reveal hidden contents

None for now

I'm pretty sure all the people I put as Hasn't posted haven't yet posted, but correct me if I missed anyone. Some connection with Bort/Araris/Kas together, but need to think more about it. @Tani, do you have any new thoughts about the game? Tani (Archer)

Why does my brain want to vote Araris so bad xD. It's so hard to resist.

I’ll just note that in my opinion everyone should start in the “Bad Bucket” and have to work their way up.

Also, I’ve been elim 8 times in the last year (9 if being a SK counts), and village only 5, so I think wanting to murder me is a pretty reasonable impulse.

[Archer]

-Unvoting Thaid because although they seemed a little more direct than usual in response to my made up pressure, they didn't panic or anything so I'm not getting a strong read on them either way. 

-Disagree with Mat that Striker isn't e-e with Thaid because extra unexplained votes can scare villagers off a train because they suspect elim bandwagoning. 

-I'd like to know how Kas learned Shadow's gender. 

-JNV is clearly evil. Using math is an obvious elim tell. :P. (Cool outcome though!) 

-Skimmed the thread, but I just realized I might not be on tomorrow morning, so my voter's moving to Aman. Here's my pitch. In the Teo doc I felt they oversold their belief in e!Thaid, fourth vote can be e-e for the same reasons as a fifth, they suggested in our doc that we assume our doc has no moles and have been fairly pro information sharing. 

I also found them asking Mat for exactly five reasons was an odd request, and trying to double vote seemed weird too. 

Aman (Thaid lad) 

[---]

5 hours ago, Experience said:

Why does my brain want to vote Araris so bad xD. It's so hard to resist.

Experience is village

[Kasimir]

4 hours ago, Archer said:

-I'd like to know how Kas learned Shadow's gender. 

Quote

Look I recruited someone! And that was before I found out she was a Sanderfan so what're the odds! [...] 

Also #Kasimir could you maybe PM shadow a link to your games dead doc? That way she can get a look at how things operate from behind the scenes

I pay attention. Do you not?  

Edited to add:

Interested in hearing from @Amanuensis about this one - but this point in particular I don't find suspicious.

Quote

-Skimmed the thread, but I just realized I might not be on tomorrow morning, so my voter's moving to Aman. Here's my pitch. In the Teo doc I felt they oversold their belief in e!Thaid, fourth vote can be e-e for the same reasons as a fifth, they suggested in our doc that we assume our doc has no moles and have been fairly pro information sharing. 

Knowing what I do of Aman's PM policy, I am not surprised.

I'm just also going to say straight up that this has been my operative approach to my doc - I am not pro info-sharing within the doc and will heavily judge anyone who tries to roleclaim, but am acting on the operative assumption that everyone in there is a Villager. Rationally, this is very likely false, but I prefer wary cooperation/discussion, and trust myself to sufficiently revise my credences given time and data. I'm also motivated to avoid a second Urbain Inquisition within my Empire, due to how negative that experience was for Ren, Gamma, and myself.

I don't regard that point in particular as damning but an issue of approach to the game.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kasimir
grammar

[Amanuensis]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I pay attention. Do you not?  

Edited to add:

Interested in hearing from @Amanuensis about this one - but this point in particular I don't find suspicious.

Knowing what I do of Aman's PM policy, I am not surprised.

I'm just also going to say straight up that this has been my operative approach to my doc - I am not pro info-sharing within the doc and will heavily judge anyone who tries to roleclaim, but am acting on the operative assumption that everyone in there is a Villager. Rationally, this is very likely false, but I prefer wary cooperation/discussion, and trust myself to sufficiently revise my credences given time and data. I'm also motivated to avoid a second Urbain Inquisition within my Empire, due to how negative that experience was for Ren, Gamma, and myself.

I don't regard that point in particular as damning but an issue of approach to the game.

I'm interested to hear from @Amanuensis too

7 hours ago, Archer said:

-Unvoting Thaid because although they seemed a little more direct than usual in response to my made up pressure, they didn't panic or anything so I'm not getting a strong read on them either way. 

-Disagree with Mat that Striker isn't e-e with Thaid because extra unexplained votes can scare villagers off a train because they suspect elim bandwagoning. 

-I'd like to know how Kas learned Shadow's gender. 

-JNV is clearly evil. Using math is an obvious elim tell. :P. (Cool outcome though!) 

-Skimmed the thread, but I just realized I might not be on tomorrow morning, so my voter's moving to Aman. Here's my pitch. In the Teo doc I felt they oversold their belief in e!Thaid, fourth vote can be e-e for the same reasons as a fifth, they suggested in our doc that we assume our doc has no moles and have been fairly pro information sharing. 

I also found them asking Mat for exactly five reasons was an odd request, and trying to double vote seemed weird too. 

Aman (Thaid lad) 

Gonna respond to this post a little out of order, but I've got a lot to unpack.

- "Here's my pitch." Why do you sound like a salesman and not a detective? Like...  no joke, I genuinely find that one phrase suspicious within itself. This feels like you're testing the waters of a potential Aman misyeet more than you are bringing evidence into the thread that you genuinely believes makes me an elim. I don't feel a Villager feels that they need to convince people to join their vote - particularly when initially presenting their suspicion. I do feel like an elim feels they need to do that, though.

- In the doc, Archer tried raising this same "oversold belief in e!Thaid" thing. And right now I can't quote it directly, but this is a misrepresentation of how that conversation went down. I told my doc something along the lines of "I wouldn't be surprised if Thaid has finally rolled elim for the first time. He seems unusually aware of people voting for him." I also said something like "I've been wrong about Thaid being an elim recently due to him being different between games, so I'm not reading into his alignment too much, but I added my vote to see if anyone would stack the votes even higher (testing for elim going for low-hanging fruit) or if anyone would try to save Thaid (testing for elim protecting a partner)." I also pointed out that at the time of this conversation, there were over 30 hours left in the turn and that I did not actually expect Thaid to remain the top wagon by the end of D1, and that I found it very interesting that Archer felt 4 votes on Thaid on the first couple pages meant his yeet was a foregone conclusion. This leads me to believe that A) Archer is E/E with Thaid or B: Archer knows Thaid is Village and is using my Thaid reaction test to make me look bad for some reason? There is a C possibility in which this is Village paranoia but... I really don't buy it at this juncture

- As Kas pointed out, my PM policy (and thus Empire policy) is to assume the person(people) I'm PMing with is(are) Village. I hate being Village and paranoided to the point where people refuse to work with me, and I feel that it directly inhibits the Village's overall ability to focus on catching the elims, thus ultimately helping the elims win since they want the village to be distracted by infighting. Furthermore, me being "fairly pro information sharing" is a stretch. Archer originally proposed us collectively voting on if we should have any roles in our Empire claim. I instead suggested that we pretend our Empire has every role and, with a table, have each person pitch what they think each role should do every night turn. That way our Empire can discuss at length what we think each role should do, and said players with those roles could take the relevant discussion into consideration. Not only would this allow us to coordinate our potential roles, it wouldn't require said roles to reveal themselves, and thus become a target, of the elims. It would also be discussion that is generated within our Empire that could help us determine each other's alignments. This leads me to believe that Archer has a vested interest in keeping our Empire paranoid and uncoordinated, and is using the excuse of "our doc must have a mole" to achieve that. The ironic part is I'm increasingly becoming convinced he is the mole.

- "Disagree with Mat that Striker isn't e-e with Thaid because extra unexplained votes can scare villagers off a train because they suspect elim bandwagoning." I'm... confused. Did you not just say you suspect me for "overselling my belief in e!Thaid"? But now you're saying that Striker could be paired with E!Thaid? Do you think that I'm paired with e!Thaid too and I fourth-voted my own teammate for... what? The luls? These thoughts appear to contradict each other in a way I don't believe comes from a Villager solving the game mindset - it feels more like an elim trying to keep options open, especially in the event that Thaid flips elim - which I have previously theorized could be possible and makes sense on a team with Archer. This especially makes sense given Archer's reasoning for unvoting Thaid: "they didn't panic or anything so I'm not getting a strong read on them either way." This feels extremely hedgy and I can't help but disagree; I think any Villager would be able to form some kind of opinion on Thaid's reactions, whether their opinion is accurate or not. Is it damning? No, absolutely not. But it's data, and I do not buy that Archer instantly leaps to NAI from it.

- "I'd like to know how Kas learned Shadow's gender." - @Kasimir, could you tell me whether or not you are in Shadow's Empire? I have a feeling that Archer knows you are not and thought this question would either A: make people think he's inquiring to show that he doesn't know the rosters of other Empires, B: he thought he could use your knowledge of Shadow's gender when not being in the same empire to suggest you both are elims together, or C: does not actually know the roster of your Empire or Shadow's Empire and is fishing. No matter what, though, I don't understand why v!Archer would latch onto this specific detail from everything that has been discussed today.

- "I also found them asking Mat for exactly five reasons was an odd request, and trying to double vote seemed weird too." Please tell me... how are either of these things elim indicative? "Odd" and "weird" do not = "elim" for one, and I will vehemently argue that neither of those things is "odd/weird" in the first place. It's very clear that I disagreed with Mat's initial take on keeping our Empires a secret, and that I wanted to figure out if his desire to do so was indicative of him being an elim. Asking for five bullet points (or less, or more, I gave him options) was meant to be a thought exercise, both to challenge Mat to think about the topic more deeply (if he succeeded, I might have been convinced to drop my current stance) as well as to see if he was approaching this game from a village or elim mindset. Secondly, Striker also did something I wanted to vote him for at the same time, and so I decided to take a page out of the QF59 playbook and "double vote" in order to make both Matrim and Striker feel pressure to answer. Striker's answer inevitably led me to reading him as village, while Mat's answer felt both appeasing and dodgy at once, which actually makes me suspect that Mat is an elim trying to remain on my good side + not trying to expose that his stance on Empire secrecy is alignment motivated. This leads me to believe that Archer could be paired with Matrim, who I began voicing even greater suspicion of in our doc.

Thaid   Matrim   Archer

If any of you three are village, this is when you should begin trying to prove it to me  

ED1T:

Dang I just wanted to have a chill D1 but people gotta make me write essays I guess >>

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir]

24 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

- "I'd like to know how Kas learned Shadow's gender." - @Kasimir, could you tell me whether or not you are in Shadow's Empire? I have a feeling that Archer knows you are not and thought this question would either A: make people think he's inquiring to show that he doesn't know the rosters of other Empires, B: he thought he could use your knowledge of Shadow's gender when not being in the same empire to suggest you both are elims together, or C: does not actually know the roster of your Empire or Shadow's Empire and is fishing. No matter what, though, I don't understand why v!Archer would latch onto this specific detail from everything that has been discussed today.

Sigh. Forgive me fellow Empire guys, but you guys aren't answering my questions, so I guess I'm just going to make the executive decision and do it. Please forgive me if y'all don't approve of this decision but y'all are ignoring me so I just have to do as I see fit right now.

Yes, I am, but Shadow just showed up to say she was busy IRL, I reassured her that was okay because RL >>> games. So that doesn't work out. However, Shadow never at any point mentioned her gender - I read it off your post (the one I linked.)

Edited to add:

24 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Dang I just wanted to have a chill D1 but people gotta make me write essays I guess >>

I was supposed to have a quiet, chill RPful game.... .___. I feel you bro.

Edited to add 2:

If this is a good time to Empire claim, I'm the Aan'allein representing Malkier.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis]

29 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Sigh. Forgive me fellow Empire guys, but you guys aren't answering my questions, so I guess I'm just going to make the executive decision and do it. Please forgive me if y'all don't approve of this decision but y'all are ignoring me so I just have to do as I see fit right now.

Yes, I am, but Shadow just showed up to say she was busy IRL, I reassured her that was okay because RL >>> games. So that doesn't work out. However, Shadow never at any point mentioned her gender - I read it off your post (the one I linked.)

D'aw  I feel bad now because it seems like your Empire isn't super active, which is a shame. I bet we'd be at 20 pages by now if we had been paired together  I'm glad shadow has you to show her the ropes whenever she's not busy tho!

Okay so, you and shadow are together, cool. That still means e!Archer could not have a mole in your Empire + another Empire and thus would try fishing for that information, or that e!Archer does have a mole in your Empire and wants to seem like he doesn't know your Empire's roster by asking that question.

Also possible that v!Archer is just... latching onto you knowing Shadows gender as a way to pair you for... what reason?

I'm asking you Kas because I legitimately don't know. What does v!Archer gain from asking that question?

How do you feel about my overall response to Archer's post? Do you think I'm crazy for suspecting Archer for it?

Edited April 3, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir]

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

D'aw  I feel bad now because it seems like your Empire isn't super active, which is a shame. I bet we'd be at 20 pages by now if we had been paired together  I'm glad shadow has you to show her the ropes whenever she's not busy tho!

I mean, we are at 20 pages. Cannot confirm nor deny how much of that is due to me repeatedly asking the same questions.

Sorry for the late reply, just got back off a two hour AoE2 session with Orlok and Wyrm, with Wyrm hardcarrying. (Sorry guys .___. ) My brain is officially dead from the stress.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

Okay so, you and shadow are together, cool. That still means e!Archer could not have a mole in your Empire + another Empire and thus would try fishing for that information, or that e!Archer does have a mole in your Empire and wants to seem like he doesn't know your Empire's roster by asking that question.

Either would seem possible; or alternative he could be trying to connect me and Shadow and suggest that I must have that info from elsewhere. But IDK as it's not a very strong E shade - the simplest explanation would be that she's in my Empire.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm asking you Kas because I legitimately don't know. What does v!Archer gain from asking that question?

I am aware that V!Archer sometimes asks weird things. That is to say, right now, I don't know either.

1 hour ago, Amanuensis said:

How do you feel about my overall response to Archer's post? Do you think I'm crazy for suspecting Archer for it?

My immediate thoughts:

• I would like @Experience, as the other publicly known member of your Empire, to talk about his take on your in doc events. Like...I don't think you'd lie about it that obviously and I have light reason (potentially bordering on gut) to think you're Village (I said as much in my doc) on the basis of OOG conversations we've had about our playstyles going forwards. But all the same, I think that your take carries with it a certain perspective, and I'd like a cross-check. To me, the statement doing the heavy lifting is Archer's in doc behaviour, because that to me is more or less the one point that concerns me the most:
   

  2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

  - As Kas pointed out, my PM policy (and thus Empire policy) is to assume the person(people) I'm PMing with is(are) Village. I hate being Village and paranoided to the point where people refuse to work with me, and I feel that it directly inhibits the Village's overall ability to focus on catching the elims, thus ultimately helping the elims win since they want the village to be distracted by infighting. Furthermore, me being "fairly pro information sharing" is a stretch. Archer originally proposed us collectively voting on if we should have any roles in our Empire claim. I instead suggested that we pretend our Empire has every role and, with a table, have each person pitch what they think each role should do every night turn. That way our Empire can discuss at length what we think each role should do, and said players with those roles could take the relevant discussion into consideration. Not only would this allow us to coordinate our potential roles, it wouldn't require said roles to reveal themselves, and thus become a target, of the elims. It would also be discussion that is generated within our Empire that could help us determine each other's alignments. This leads me to believe that Archer has a vested interest in keeping our Empire paranoid and uncoordinated, and is using the excuse of "our doc must have a mole" to achieve that. The ironic part is I'm increasingly becoming convinced he is the mole.

  Anything else needs me to take a nap first. That game was a two hour intense slogfest, Orlok nearly died, I nearly died, and I can't make an evaluation at this point but will do so when I get back.

• Honestly I'm still too tilted by Devo and Bort to make sense of Archer right now and I think I'm tunnelling (and have asked my doc if I'm tunnelling.) I need to take a break and then re-engage. I'm aware of Exp's argument that her reaction is too pure, I just really don't buy it and I don't know if I'm just tilted and tunnelling, or...

Edited to add: @Amanuensis- To be clear, it's defeasible reason. I know better than to be too confident in my ability to read you, and I think that E!Aman would know we had those conversations, and deliberately skew his approach to not be immediately detectable. I've made this caveat in my Empire doc as well. But I'm fine with being wrong about you as long as I revise, and for the moment, I'm cool with my knowledge of your playstyle thoughts/desires as weak evidential basis for V!Aman.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Sorry for the late reply, just got back off a two hour AoE2 session with Orlok and Wyrm, with Wyrm hardcarrying. (Sorry guys .___. ) My brain is officially dead from the stress.

All good! Sorry you're braindead from stress. I hope you had some fun at least!

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Either would seem possible; or alternative he could be trying to connect me and Shadow and suggest that I must have that info from elsewhere. But IDK as it's not a very strong E shade - the simplest explanation would be that she's in my Empire.

I am aware that V!Archer sometimes asks weird things. That is to say, right now, I don't know either.

Yeah TBH I'm not 100% sold on E!Archer from this. I feel like the smarter play for an elim would be to appease me (like Mat has done) and NK me instead. It's possible he's worried about me getting protection and being hard to kill, but idk. I feel like e!Archer would be safer just voting Devo or Bort (unless he's also partnered with one of them?). For that reason I could see v!Archer just being paranoid of me and not having good reasons to suspect me other than "he's in my doc and pro-cooperation, he must be evil."

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

My immediate thoughts:

• I would like @Experience, as the other publicly known member of your Empire, to talk about his take on your in doc events. Like...I don't think you'd lie about it that obviously and I have light reason (potentially bordering on gut) to think you're Village (I said as much in my doc) on the basis of OOG conversations we've had about our playstyles going forwards. But all the same, I think that your take carries with it a certain perspective, and I'd like a cross-check. To me, the statement doing the heavy lifting is Archer's in doc behaviour, because that to me is more or less the one point that concerns me the most:

I too welcome Experience to confirm what I've brought to light.

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Honestly I'm still too tilted by Devo and Bort to make sense of Archer right now and I think I'm tunnelling (and have asked my doc if I'm tunnelling.) I need to take a break and then re-engage. I'm aware of Exp's argument that her reaction is too pure, I just really don't buy it and I don't know if I'm just tilted and tunnelling, or...

I honestly am uncertain about Devo / Bort and have decided to not get involved. Can't tell if you being tilted by them is an e!Kas or v!Kas thing, if I'm honest, so I'm not willing to follow along. If there's a mole in my doc and you're an elim, then you probably know this already since I've talked about it there, but if you're Village, then just know I'm 100% convinced you're Village yet  after QF59, I know you can blend very well and even clutch a win, so I hope you understand my wariness is a sign of respect <3

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: @Amanuensis- To be clear, it's defeasible reason. I know better than to be too confident in my ability to read you, and I think that E!Aman would know we had those conversations, and deliberately skew his approach to not be immediately detectable. I've made this caveat in my Empire doc as well. But I'm fine with being wrong about you as long as I revise, and for the moment, I'm cool with my knowledge of your playstyle thoughts/desires as weak evidential basis for V!Aman.

That's fair! For that reason, I'm sure v!you can understand my unwillingness to write you off yet either but I'd never vote my ThreadPMBro D1 anyway, so if you're an elim, you are safe for now