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@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I think it's pretty cool. One thing that I realize now I probably wasn't very clear on, and this is a lot of assumption on my part... In the scene at the end of Oathbringer where Odium pulls Taravangian into the virtual Diagram room. We see the Diagram as it was written, then the room drops away, and then we see what Odium sees... My interpretation is that Odium is just extrapolating further. I don't think we're dealing with two separate views of the future. I think they match up, and the Diagram is just very limited compared to what Odium sees. It's like the Diagram is a single sentence written out. Then Odium comes along with a transparent page of golden text and overlays it on that single sentence. They match up perfectly, with Odium's version just revealing more/further. And when I say perfectly I mean almost perfectly. There's this one portion in the middle of the sentence that repeatedly seems wrong in some way, frustrating the people interpreting it. On Odium's overlay, that portion is just a jumble of words overlayed on one another to the point that it's illegible. I think that the reason the Diagram seems wrong is because it is. It predicted one branch which was once very likely, but now there are several possibilities propagating from Renarin (Odium's blindness). And in this particular case, the Diagram guessed the wrong one. Brandon basically confirmed Renarin's interference with Odium. So my theory is basically that if the Diagram is a work predicting the future then Renarin should be affecting it in basically the same way. The difference is that the Diagram is a static creation while Odium is seeing all of the possibilities as they currently exist. (If Odium looked into the future before Renarin bonded Glys, he probably would have seen with clarity what the Diagram predicted.) THAT SAID... I imagine Cultivation is much better at seeing the future than Odium. I figure it's possible that she has an easier time seeing all of the branches created by Renarin. So it's possible that the Diagram isn't wrong because of Renarin, but because Cultivation is manipulating people (maybe even Odium) by presenting a future that she knew would be wrong. Does that make sense? I'm personally skeptical that the Diagram is... coming from Cultivation to this degree. I think it can still be a tool of hers for the purpose of manipulation without needing to take things this far. But who knows... Sorry, I'm rambling. Personally, I think he'd still be greyed out because he's already had some influence that has stirred things up. BUT I DO think that this greyness would fade in time with Renarin dead, as his influences work themselves out and move from there. With Renarin alive, it will continue to grow, I think. Very hard to guess how long Sja-Anat has been leaning that way. Definitely a major question mark. I don't imagine she went to Cultivation. I think she's been more slow, and subtle, and careful. Afraid to move in the open, which I imagine would be required to visit Cultivation. I do expect that Glys was a weapon she planned for this purpose. A way to help out the other side. I don't know that she saw exactly what would happen with Glys... But I think she saw some of it. Less "here, this will cause X, Y, Z to happen and help you guys out" and more "here's a powerful tool, it will probably help"? Talk of Unmade reminds me... I can't remember if it comes up in this topic or not. In the Diagram epigraphs in Words of Radiance, there are three references from the "Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer." Two of them are explicitly about the Unmade, and I think they're suggestive about the relationship between Unmade and future sight. They are described as "a deviation". They have "relevance to precognition". The third epigraph is the traitor one: "One of them is most certainly a traitor to the others." The Diagram predicted Sja-Anat's treachery. So that's a clue perhaps to when that happened? Then again, maybe too ambiguous to be helpful there. Regardless, I think this soft connection between the Unmade and how they might influence the future is interesting, especially given the sequence of events that begin with Sja-Anat creating Glys...

Grandpa's old war buddies that everyone's heard stories about but almost no one has seen?

Today is the one-year anniversary of me joining the shard (and my 1000th post) and I thought it’d be fitting to make a topic for people to put their favorite parts of this site, and how they joined. So how did you find, join, and what do you like/dislike, about the 17th Shard? For me, I was reaserching more about Dalinar for a book report, and the Coppermind had a link here. I just thought it’d be fun to see what this was all about, and honestly, it’s something I wouldn’t change for the world. So many awesome people from so many different places, united by a love of Sanderson’s books. You guys are all so great. I don’t think I’d be as happy or confident as I am now, or as good of a writer. I discovered the wonderful world of roleplaying, silly forum games, and discussion on other similar interests, and through that, made a ton of friends. So yeah, what’s your story?

Things the Diagram Has Done to Strengthen Dalinar's Position: Pushed Kaladin to swear his Third Ideal Put a very pliant Emperor on the Azish throne (why else kill two Azish Emperors in a row?) Removed Jah Keved as a rival neighbor (can you imagine how much harder it would have been to build Dalinar's coalition with a belligerent Jah Keved still in the way?) Created a Skybreaker willing to follow Dalinar instead of the will of Nale (it was only a rock) Giving Dalinar the idea to capture Nergaoul Helped persuade the Theylans to join the coalition with the Kharbranthian surgeons, which in turn helped bring in the Azish because Fen was willing to help I'm sure I could come up with more if I took more time. I'm also going to guess that Dalinar is going to receive a friendly tip about how Odium can't see the future where Renarin is concerned. At pretty much every relevant turn, The Diagram has been beneficial to Dalinar's progression into the leader of the coalition against Odium. So to answer your question, yes I believe that The Diagram foresaw Dalinar's Ascension. That said, I don't think current Mr T or the Diagram's members see anything they're doing in that light. Diagram Mr T, fueled by Cultivation, is playing modern Mr T and friends for a greater purpose than they realize. It's also worth attempting to summon @Calderis since Calderis is a Diagram junkie

I have come up with an argument that Unity is not a reinterpretation of Honor, as follows. First, did Dalinar take up a full Shard at the Battle of Thaylen Field? I do not think so. Though there are visualish similarities between this scene and the one in which Vin was infused with all the mists, nevertheless, Preservation was an intact Shard, whereas Honor is not intact. Also, Vin's physical form was vaporized during her full Ascension, whereas Dalinar is still flesh-and-bones. So, if Dalinar did not pick up a full Shard, would it have been possible for him to have reinterpreted a full Shard's Intent? Even if it would be possible to do so, does Dalinar know enough about Shards, Shardic Intents, Adonalsium, etc. to know how to reinterpret a Shard's Intent? I think not. Consider, Sazed picked up two intact Shards who had emulated Adonalsium to the extent of not just colonizing some already-existing world, but making a whole world out of thin air. Sazed was a scholar, used to analytical thinking. Yet, he learned very little about Adonalsium from the residual knowledge of the subject contained in the two Shards he took up. Even if Dalinar became a Vessel, I doubt he would have had Intent-reinterpretation downloaded into his mind at the time. So, supposing Dalinar took up enough of a Shard to reinterpret its Intent, he would have done so basically by accident. I don't know about you but of the many things in the Cosmere that require you to know, Intentwise, what you're doing, before you can quite do them, changing the interpretation of Shardic Intent seems like it would be near the top of a list of those. Dalinar, without knowing that his god is a Shard of Adonalsium who assigned the Intent of Honor to an ambiguous fragment of the original god, managed to reimagine his god as if it were Unity and not Honor? All he knows about that Shard, without even knowing that it is a Shard, is that it is known as Honor. Now, you might say, well, did Sazed even know, explicitly, enough to reinterpret Shardic Intent, when he became a Vessel? However, Sazed was in a substantially different position. He was not reinterpreting an already-given Intent, but assigning an interpretation to an emerging Intent. Every Intent has to be interpreted, so in the original case of the Shard being taken up in the first place, that vacuum has to be filled. But once filled, it becomes more a decision, what its interpretation will continue to be. Either you can try to hold on to the interpretation, or you can let the Shard reinterpret you, so to speak. Anyway, Sazed, as a Feruchemist, was used to thinking of his power in terms of a balance of Ruin and Preservation, so assigning the interpretation of Harmony to the Intent of his new di-Shard, would have been a natural cognitive move for him to make. Dalinar, by contrast, would have to rather self-consciously believe that Unity was what Honor was "supposed" to be, and so on, in a situation where he doesn't even know that Honor as a Shard can "supposedly" be anything but what it is, as such. This all brings up the second major condition of the argument, which is the massive difference between the Unity-Honor alternative, and the Harmony-Discord alternative. Unity and Honor would be reciprocal. Harmony and Discord, however, are opposites. Unity can be conceived of as a kind of Honor, or Honor as a kind of Unity, but Harmony is not a kind of Discord. Let's say, Harmony and Discord are on the same level of complexity, whereas Unity is a less complex concept than Honor. It seems as if the Intent of Honor already contained the Intent of Unity within its own interpretation as such, whereas interpreting the Intent of Ruin + Preservation as Harmony excludes simultaneously interpreting it as Discord. Granted, we're talking about the difference between a monadic and a dyadic Shard, with different preambles, but together with everything else considered so far, I'd say that, "I am Unity," has a virtually zero percent chance of being an expression of Shardic reinterpretation on Dalinar's part.

Alright, yon Shardlings, maybe you can help me make sense of something that's been bothering me for years and particularly this past month or so since I re-read SLA last. You'll have to bear with me through what will certainly be a large wall of text as I present the facts as I see them, the conclusions I've drawn, and some tangential speculation (cause this is my thread dammit and I'll speculate if I want). If reading the Stormlight Archive has taught me anything about Brandon's writing, its that to find where the big secrets are you should look at what he writes around. Look at the elephant in the room. And here in the first half of the series I don't think there's a bigger elephant in the room than Gavilar and, by extension, the Sons of Honor. For a man who we spent two books fighting a war over (20% of the series) we know remarkably little about him. He was certainly a man of secrets. Of all the secret societies we're aware of on Roshar, the Sons of Honor are the most secret to us, the readers. Gavilar gets very little screen time and much of that is early in the timeline of OB flashbacks. So what do we know about Gavilar Kholin, beyond the blindingly obvious (king of Alethkar, Navani's first husband, was assassinated by Szeth, etc)? I see Gavilar's life as taking place in 3 acts. Very early on (probably sometime before the first Dalinar flashback), Gavilar graduated from tribal warlord to aspirant King. Something, possibly the birth of Jasnah, inspired Gavilar to look beyond his own generational aspirations toward founding an Alethkar that would maintain continuity for generations. He did not want to Alexander the Great his way through life, choosing instead to Wilhelm I of Germany and organize and consolidate power in Alethkar, ostensibly for the first time in generations. I'm not sure how I feel about going around conquering your neighbors in the simple name of unity but as far as pre-Industrial warlords go Gavilar seems fairly forward-thinking, even if some of his philosophizing about dynasty and stability is after-the-fact justification for actions taken earlier in life. After uniting the Alethi under the Kholin banner, Gavilar spends much of the rest of his life attempting to politic his way into legitimacy, both among the highprinces and internationally. From here on out Gavilar effectively abandons the battlefield, choosing instead to tactically deploy the Blackthorn to prove a point when simple words fail. Judging purely by results, he is not very good at this, though we only really have one result to go by. When Tanalan and the Rift go into rebellion, Gavilar stalls them purely with his own politics, then later by deploying Dalinar to the Vedan and Herdazian borders to prove a point, then by using Dalinar to smash the rebellion outright. Not very politic. But the attempt was made and Gavilar was at least able to divorce himself from his younger warlord persona by shoving that onto Dalinar while adopting the airs of a politician himself. Somewhere in this time is where the third act of Gavilar's life begins, however, and where things relating to Gavilar start to get a little hazy. We know at some point, almost certainly after the unification of Alethkar, that three things happen concerning Gavilar: he joins the Sons of Honor, he starts receiving the Bondsmith visions, and he starts reading The [In-Universe] Way of Kings (in case it becomes relevant, I will hereafter refer to the in-universe Way of Kings by full name and to the book on my desk as TWoK). We do not know the order of occurrences here. We also do not know how many of the visions Gavilar received or if he actually swore any Bondsmith oaths, unless there's some WoB I'm unaware of. However, given the quotes above and their contexts, as well as clues given to us about how Gavilar went "strange" later in life, I suspect that he must have joined the Sons of Honor before he started receiving his visions. The first quote implies some purpose found, and the Sons of Honor would supply that while newly received visions would probably provide more questions than clarity. As to the second quote, I believe the visions qualify as "revelations" to be shared. It is worth noting that Gavilar was a lot less cagey than Dalinar about his visions. Mr T tells us directly that he'd been told of Gavilar's visions. And Amaram's response to the leaked visions at the feast in WoR... you know what I'm just gonna quote it. Amaram speaks with the air of having read the vision in question, despite it being one of many released just prior to the conversation and not actually being able to read the women's script. I realize that he could have had it read to him, but he's still really quick off the cuff with his spicy take on "And now I am dead, Odium has killed me. I am sorry." Almost as if he'd already known and parsed what Tanavast had said. This, combined with the fact that he conveniently shows up in the warcamps shortly after Dalinar having fits during the highstorms becomes public knowledge, leads me to believe that he had knowledge of Gavilar's visions and their contents. If Amaram knew their contents, it is likely that the body of the Sons of Honor knew their contents as well. Indeed it is possible that Mr T had associations with these guys prior to visiting Cultivation/Nightwatcher and that's how he knows about it too, but this is baseless speculation. The one person who does not know anything about these visions who, it seems to me, definitely should have is Navani. Failing to confide in Jasnah is understandable, to a degree. But is Gavilar really spending every highstorm apart from Navani after this starts happening? Even if there's not something more sinister going on, this illuminates exactly how rough their marriage was by this point. And if, as I believe, Gavilar's visions started before sending Dalinar to Rathelas, then he was ditching Navani every highstorm for at least five years before his death. Not that there are that many visions, necessarily, but my point is more that this was not attached to some shortly pre-death strangeness associated with Gavilar. His and Navani's issues, whatever they were, were not new when he died. This entire paragraph presupposes that Navani is not concealing information about Gavilar from Dalinar, and indeed her mention of Gavilar's black spheres seem to indicate that she's being up front with Dalinar. At this point I will move off Gavilar directly and address the Sons of Honor more directly. As I said in the opening of this (already horrendously long) post, we know next to nothing about the Sons of Honor. Mraize tells Shallan that Gavilar was a "driving force" in the expansion of the Sons of Honor. We know that Amaram was recruited by Gavilar into the Sons of Honor. I believe that Gavilar intended to recruit Dalinar especially after he started distinguishing himself on the Alethi frontier, but it was impractical while Dalinar was on the front lines and Dalinar became extraordinarily unreliable after Rathelas. I further believe that Amaram's presence on the Shattered Plains was specifically to recruit Dalinar, especially since his fits in the highstorms became public knowledge. As to the Sons of Honor's relationship with the other secret societies, I believe both the Skybreakers and the Ghostbloods opposed the Sons of Honor's attempts to usher in a Desolation. Obviously the Skybreakers tried to kill Amaram, and Gavilar expected assassins from the Ghostbloods. Incidentally, I think this is what set Jasnah at odds with the Ghostbloods: the Ghostbloods were trying to prevent Gavilar from starting a Desolation, and Jasnah was counter-assassinating their assassins, making a target (and an enemy) of herself. I think in a way, the Diagram is kind of an offshoot of the Sons of Honor. Gavilar and Mr T were friends, and Gavilar made Mr T aware at some point of his visions, but Mr T ended up taking a different path than the the Sons of Honor. The only other confirmed member is Restares, who on the one hand Amaram writes to as a superior in his letter to him at the end of WoR, but on the other Gavilar fairly easily suspects as being behind his own assassination after Thaidakar is eliminated as a suspect. Beyond these two tidbits we really know nothing about Restares. I also believe that Aesudan was a member of the Sons of Honor. My evidence is shaky but not nonexistent. My first supporting piece is the fact that Gavilar desperately wanted to marry Jasnah off to Amaram, and I suspect he was following the same behavioral pattern that Jasnah shows in trying to get as many Knights Radiant tied into House Kholin as possible. Elhokar says that Jasnah opposed his marriage to Aesudan, but there appears to be no opposition to it from Gavilar's corner. The second supporting piece are Aesudan's own words (of which we have precious few): Not only is Aesudan clearly aware of what Gavilar was up to in his later days than us readers are, she's gone totally next level with it. If it is true that Gavilar was attempting to bond an Unmade, and bear in mind here that I take everything Aesudan tells us with a pinch of copper, then this to me is strong evidence that Gavilar never progressed beyond proto-Radiance. And this leads into the problem what's been bothering me all this time. Mraize tells us that the entire mission of the Sons of Honor was to ignite a Desolation. Gavilar's words to Eshonai on the night of his assassination corroborate this, only extending that Gavilar and the Sons of Honor knew exactly what they were about. And again, if Gavilar really was trying to bond an Unmade, then he really really knew what he was about. Here's the thing: I get not understanding what Tanavast's visions were trying to show. They're fairly arcane and for a long time Dalinar takes them in the context of the life he's living. Dalinar spends two whole books thinking that he's being charged to unite the Alethi against the Parshendi, when in reality the scope is so much larger. He's supposed to unite the world against the void. This is an understandable misunderstanding. Its a mistake of scale, not of intent. But how in Damnation does Gavilar talk himself into thinking these same visions mean that he should take an active hand in kickstarting the Desolation? For the purpose of bringing back the Heralds and strengthening the Vorin Church? This is a massive gamble based on layers of misunderstanding. Firstly, the visions themselves are incompatible with modern Vorinism, and not just the part about Honor being dead. Secondly, like Nale and Ishar, they seem to be putting the cart before the horse in terms of how a Desolation starts based on a wild misunderstanding of the Oathpact. Nale and Ishar seem to think that the return of the Knights Radiant are somehow causal to the Desolation instead of being responsive to it, and the Sons of Honor seem to think that they can shepherd in a Desolation and that the Heralds and Knights Radiant will return, rather than a Desolation starting as a result of a weakening or breaking of the Oathpact. But regardless of what they thought they knew, if your conclusion is "yes let's start a Desolation" it seems pretty apparent to me that your reasoning has strayed somewhere. So, am I missing something somewhere that we know already? From what information we've been presented so far in the text, Gavilar's motives make less than no sense to me. Causing an event known to cause 90% extinction and risking 100% extinction in the name of Alethi and Vorin unity is not the act of a sane group of people. In fact, if you take the phrase "voidbringer" at face value, that is, someone who brings the void, then Gavilar and the Sons of Honor are by definition Voidbringers. Sure, Amaram goes full Voidbringer at Theylan Field, but on the face of things as we have it he's been a voidbringer for the better part of a decade by the time Theylan Field rolls around. This is what he was working towards. And I can't for the life of me figure out why.

So he played 9 dimensional chess against himself and lost?

Voidus is who Calamity wishes he was. (And a heck of a lot nicer, but that's a given.)

That's incredibly well phrased, and I think a great description of what's actually going on. I like this a lot, and I think that it's pretty awesome that Odium, in his attempt to gloat about his superior knowledge of the future to a mentally simple Taravangian reveals a tactical piece of information to T that he, Odium, is completely blind to and which T would never have known about if Odium hadn't gloated. Yet another reason why Odium messed up by coming to T on a dumb day. This is the part I disagree with. I think the Diagram was meant to be a self-correcting roadmap, with cultivation's agent, T, in charge of it's maintenance and implementation. The Diagram can never be wrong, because it's simultaneously a feint along multiple simultaneous lines and a continuously adjusted through-line for Cultivation's plans. Renarin while possibly invisible to all future sight, is still just a singular actor in a planet wide chain of events, and his disruptive actions and the possibly unforeseeable actions by Odium are exactly why Cultivation needs an active agent like T to continually monitor and adjust her plan. Sometimes the modifications will be purely for misdirection, sometimes it will be to control T's intelligence to just the right degree that he presents the proper mischaracterization of the Diagram that is needed in a given situation, and sometimes (like when he steps up working on the Eila Stele bomb) it will be to set in motion a complex chain of events that push things along a particular line at a particular point. I get why you wouldn't want this to be true, future sight to this degree seems a little Deus Ex Machina-y, but Odium also doesn't exist in a vaccuum, he has plans I am sure that are invisible to Cultivation, and by extension, the Diagram. I think the Diagram is just one battlefront in an epic struggle that will be waged across all 3 realms, this is just an incredibly awesome metaphor for the 3-Dimensional chess game played by god-like actors with the power to see in the future. Rad stuff to be sure.

Does anyone want to use pig latin to secretly communicate in code after we are no longer to communicate via PM?

How dith thy get thou hands on that? I hideth it well. Behindeth a tree.

Cal, you might have to update your Diagram spiel, I think it's pretty conclusively worded in this Skyward pre-release AMA WoB that what's going on with Lift is due to the Nightwatcher, not direct Cultivation intervention (the wording in this typed AMA response is very specific). Let me know if you think I'm wrong. This post by @teknopathetic is great and is probably the one you're thinking of. There's some good discussion about the Diagram on the rest of that thread too: and So the timing on this is very suspicious, Dalinar did have his first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher and there's this WoB that Jofwu got from the Skype Q&A last October: Brandon's response heavily implies that this gap in the visions should stand out as something significant and states clearly that this was intentionally meant to be this way. Seems to me that this is part of Cultivation's plan, to forestall Dalinar from seeing the visions until he is ready to progress in his ideals as a Bondsmith. With her personally sending tendrils of power into his mind, seems reasonable to surmise that she would have a fair idea when Dalinar would be in the proper mental state to progress with his ideals. During this in depth plumbing and pruning of his mind and memories, it's also reasonable to assume that she would put in place some means of monitoring Dalinar's mind/mental state going forward, and that she would also be able to control when specific pruned memories would come back. It's highly suspicious that the memory of Rathalas and Evi's death comes back when Dalinar is in Jah Kaved, and that causes him to utterly break down at a point in time where he has enough time to recover mentally before Odium tries to make Dalinar his Champion. This is some serious foresight, and some good gardening. It would be interesting to do a reread and focus on what's happening immediately before he gets each specific memory back and look for a possible deeper seated motivation for why a specific memory was returned at that specific time.

Author's Note: Did this one up quick after realizing Sazed is definitely an advice recycler. Some quotes come directly from Chapter 45 of Well of Ascension. Enjoy! “I need to talk to you, Sazed,” Mare said. “I can spare a few moments, I think,” Sazed said. “But, I must warn you that my studies are very pressing, and my next assignment is coming up soon.” Mare grinned, her gleaming smile lighting up her dark features. “When are they not? What is it this time, the lost religion of people who worshipped anthills?” “Close. These people diefied nature itself--everything, from the fiery ashmount to, yes, even the smallest of ants, was seen as part of the divine. I…” Sazed trailed, off, catching a curious look in Mare’s eye. She seemed tense, distracted. Usually she paid rapt attention to anything to do with pre-ascension times, but today something was off. “Mare… what’s wrong? Mare hesitated, biting her lip slightly. Then, she moved over to the table, sitting down across from Sazed and pulling her legs up before her on the wooden seat. “Sazed,” she asked, “how do you know if you’re in love?” Normally so confident and brave, it was strange to see Mare shrink back into herself, looking almost like the girl who had saved Sazed’s life years ago. Sazed blinked. “I…I do not think I am one to speak on this topic, Mare. I know very little about it.” “You always say things like that,” Mare said. “But really, you’re an expert on just about everything.” Sazed chuckled. “In this case, I assure you that my insecurity is heartfelt. You certainly seem to have a better understanding than I.” “Humour me. You’ve got to know something.” “A bit, perhaps,” Sazed said, moistening his lips nervously. “You know, when we first met I think part of me thought I had a… an infatuation with you, to be honest, not that that would have ever worked out.” “Oh Sazed,” the sound of Mare’s laughter was somehow enchanting and heartbreaking at the same time. “You didn’t really, did you?” Of course I didn’t. It’s not a Eunuch’s place to love, after all. “Only a little, when I thought we might be kindred scholastic spirits. That was before I realized you have far too volatile a temperament for true scholarship.” Mare swatted Sazed playfully. “I’m serious Sazed. Please, I need to talk this out.” “Very well then. I’ll bite. You seem to be getting quite close to that conman who won’t stop bothering you. What, you thought I missed all those notes and gifts he’s been leaving at your window? You know, back before the Final Empire, a gentleman would leave a lady a whole bundle of flowers as a show of affection. They called it a bouquet.” “A whole bundle, really Sazed? I can’t even imagine. Kelsier will need to up his game then. He hasn’t even managed to find me a single flower, let alone an entire bouquet.” “You might be holding him to slightly too high a standard, Mare. So how do you feel when you are with him?” “I want him to consume me,” Mare said, softly. Her hushed tone almost sent a chill down Sazed's spine. “He’s like fire Sazed, and sometimes I think just being near him will be enough to destroy me entirely. He’s like the sun, blotting out all the stars in the sky with his radiance. When I’m with him I feel exhilarated, and alive. It’s like all my emotions are being rioted while I’m flaring tin. He makes me feel like being a part of something greater.” Sazed blushed, unused to hearing Mare talk in this way. “That… uh… seems to be a good sign, Mare.” “But… he scares me too, Sazed.” “Scares you?” “Sometimes, when I look in his eyes I see something. A darkness.” Mare held up her hand before her, as if she were reaching for something intangible. “His light makes me feel like he might turn me into something far greater than I imagined, but there is darkness in him too, beneath all that charm, and it is equally seductive. Dangerously so. What if I give in to him, and he changes me Sazed? Makes me forget about everything I care about. Destroys my hopes and dreams, leaving those flowers to wither in my imagination, subsumed to his wishes.” “That's… very poetic, but perhaps a little melodramatic as well? I understand the concern. Master Kelsier is… well, he’s certainly not someone I’d have chosen for you. But I also trust you to know yourself, and I doubt even the blackest darkness could blot out your dreams. Like the stars, hidden by mist, I think you could find a way to bring light to even the darkest night.” Mare smirked. “Now who’s being a poet?” “I learned from the best. But since we are playing Deepness’s advocate, I’ll try a different line. If Kelsier is so frightening, let’s turn to our more obvious choice, hmmm? What about Master Marsh? He’s been fond of you for far longer than you’ve even known his dangerous thieving brother.” “Ah yes, Marsh.” Mare’s lips quirked slightly, forming a hint of a smile before flattening into a thoughtful line as she glanced back out the window. “I don’t want him to love me. Marsh needs… he needs a woman who can stand by his side as he leads the rebellion to victory. A woman who can live up to the ideals and standards of perfection he holds so dear. Someone who can sink back into his arms and be glad of their protective embrace.” Mare turned back, meeting Sazed’s gaze. “That’s not me, Sazed. Marsh wants to protect me, but sometimes I think I’m already lost. I’m not the person he thinks I am, and it would be cruel of me to pretend otherwise.” “Master Marsh, though, is in love with you, yes? You trust him. Those iron eyes, as people call them, see a great deal, I think. How do you know he doesn’t love all of who you are, because you are exciting and different? That man could use a lot of things, but a little laughter and spontaneity certainly could not hurt.” Mare cocked her head to the side. “Careful Sazed, flatter me too much more and I might believe you do still fancy me.” She means no harm, she’s your friend. “My point stands. You are who you are. Despite Master Kelsier’s interference, despite your different approaches to life, Marsh fell in love with you, and I have to say your dreams, though ambitious, are rather compatible.” “I shouldn’t have let him fall in love with me. He deserves to be with someone who… deserves him, not someone like me.” Sazed frowned, feeling like he was missing something. “And why do you, of all people, not deserve to be loved?” Mare shook her head. “It’s not that simple, Saze.” “Few things are. Yet, I tell you this. Love must be allowed to flow both ways—if it is not, then it is not truly love, I think. It is something else. Infatuation, perhaps? Either way, there are some of us who are far too quick to make martyrs of ourselves. We stand at the side, watching, thinking that we do the right thing by inaction. We fear pain—our own, or that of another.” He reached forward, taking Mare’s hand in his own. “But…is that love? Is it love to assume for Marsh that he has no place with you? Or, is it love to let him make his own decision in the matter?” “And if I’m wrong for him?” Mare asked. “You must love him enough to trust his wishes, even if you disagree with them. You must respect him—no matter how wrong you think he may be, no matter how poor you think his decisions, you must respect his desire to make them. Even if one of them includes loving you.” Mare smiled slightly, but she still seemed troubled. “And…” she said very slowly, “if it doesn’t flow both ways? If I’ve already betrayed his feelings?" Ah…. Mare tensed immediately. “This must stay between us.” “Of course, as always.” Sazed hesitated. “It is Master Kelsier then? Mare shrugged. “Let’s say it is. You heard me before Sazed. He makes me feel so many things. Marsh makes me feel loved, but nothing else.” “Do you love him?” “Who?” Sazed shrugged. “You’re infuriating. Fine. I don’t know. I respect Marsh, and I think I’m infatuated with Kelsier, or maybe, the idea of him. There might be something more there, but I honestly can’t be sure.” Sazed hesitated. In this matter, he knew he should remain unbiased. He didn’t know enough about Kelsier, or his intentions, to compare him to Marsh—and Keepers were supposed to give information, but avoid specific advice. “And does he love you?” “Marsh certainly does. I mean, it’s obvious isn’t it? Kelsier… I… I think he does. I know he wants me. It’s just hard to tell with him. For all I know he’s just doing this to spite his brother. With Marsh, it’s an open book. I know exactly where I stand with him. With Kelsier, there’s... always another secret. Shouldn’t I pay more attention to the man who is more exciting for me? Or should I play it safe and choose the more dependable one?” “I don’t know, Mare. I honestly don’t know. I warned you of my ignorance in this area. I think you’ve already made up your mind though, and maybe just needed to talk yourself into it?” She sighed. “It’s all so frustrating. I should be worrying about the city and about overthrowing that Lord Tyrant, and making flowers bloom again, not which man to spend my evenings with!” “It is hard to defend others when our own lives are in turmoil,” Sazed said. Mare stood. “Thank-you Sazed. You’re a good friend. Thank-you for listening. I don’t know what I’ll do without you. Please say you’ll stay?” “I’m afraid the Synod has another assignment for me elsewhere. I’m sorry Mare but, we can’t all be as brave and daring as your Kelsier. Give Master Marsh my regards.” Mare nodded in understanding. “Yes. I will. Good luck Sazed. Stay safe.” Sazed smiled, and wished her the same, though in his heart he knew she wouldn’t be.

An addition to the equipment point list has been made. The following was added:

(Said grapevine twirls his mustachios and laughs superciliously) Forsoothe, I prayest that this doth not portend That in this forum, with a Toaster's voice Thou shalt cry "Havoc" and let slip the toast of war; That this foul deed involving thine oryginal folio Shouldst cause thee with carrion men, to bury yon dastardly scheming grapevine.

Thy dastardly crook, stealing my beloveth and very oryginal folio. You got an upvote too, you sly... grapevine?

Oh, that didst make me snigger behindeth mine own hands, like a merry little school girl evenst. (am out of upvotes, but will get you one for that you sly toaster you)

You are not the only one. I hate that thread, and I wish it would die. But seriously though, that thread worries me.

WOB to the rescue Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] We're doing a piece of art for a friend that's a crossover between Stormlight Archives and Harry Potter. How would you sort Dalinar, Kaladin, Jasnah, and Shallan? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Jasnah's a Slytherin. Hands down, very easy. Dalinar's would depend on which Dalinar you're talking about. Dalinar is probably going to be Gryffindor either way, would be my guess. Shallan's a Ravenclaw, straight up. Kaladin's tough. You could Hufflepuff Kaladin. You could totally Hufflepuff Kaladin. I think that works.

One response word: No.

Same here. This is why I make the twists, not participate...

I just want Kaladin to love himself.

Awesome, nice twists Ashpren! I think I found some of that Toaster, and it was definitely a Shakespearean Tradgedy: GIMMEL: 'O Hotdogeo, Hotdogeo! Wherefore art mine Hotdogeo? KELSIER: Shall I hear more, or shall I soothe yon crazy loon? (Kelsier suspended underneath the balcony, burps, then listens as Gimmel keeps talking to himself) GIMMEL: A rose by any other name is still a rose, but no rose doth taste as sweet as mine Hotdog-eo. Filings of iron, dustings of pewter, a solitary piece of atium didst adorn my fair Hotdogeo. Oh miserable wretch am I, I am lost without mine Hotdogeo I've got good news and bad news for you Gray. First the good news, your nemesis is dead...which leads directly to the bad news, I think you're on your own on this one... Super excited for this, I think this is going to be an awesome round!

I would buy this without hesitation This next one is an Edgedancer spoiler.

Last night I reread the scene where Taravangian speaks with Odium... So basically they are looking at the Diagram as it originally appeared, written all over the original room it was created in. Odium then overlays his vast knowledge on top of it. And we see that in one corner it's all gone black, presumably because of Renarin. I thought it was interesting that Taravangian mentions that this black section begins "behind where the bed had stood". So I flipped open to the Diagram epigraphs in WoR and found two that seem to be in that same area of the room, near the bed. I think it's interesting that both of these are directly related to Taravangian's plans to become king of the world. They are also, so far as we know, the biggest failing of the Diagram so far. Their interpretations and predictions concerning Dalinar (and the politics for Taravangian to take over) have been repeatedly wrong. Is it just a coincidence that these pieces of the Diagram are written near the bed, which is where Renarin's impact on Odium's foresight is rooted? A bit of a tangent here, but... Why is the blackness rooted in Renarin? We can speculate all over, but the obvious (general) answer is that it's related to the corruption of Glys. That's the most unique thing about him. And the most tangible thing we know of that's a result of this is his ability to see the future. I think Renarin's ability to see the future is causing him to have an atium-like affect on the grand scale of events on Roshar. When somebody uses atium, they can see the future of the world around them. It's different for Renarin of course... He clearly sees a bit further ahead than one does with normal atium usage. And his sight is centered around key moments rather than a simple foresight into how the objects/people around him move. But it's effectively the same thing. When TWO people burn atium, they see a (seemingly) infinite number of possibilities sprouting from the other person. This is because you're getting a positive feedback loop that makes each person's actions nearly impossible to predict. So I think this is what's happening with Renarin's blackness on "Odium's Diagram". Renarin's just one guy of course. Compared to Odium's future sight, he presents a relatively small margin of error. But it's enough to have an impact in one corner. Imagine you're a general burning atium while watching a battle unfold, as one of the soldiers on the battlefield also burns atium. That person's actions would be a mess that makes no sense of course, but he doesn't influence the ENTIRE battlefield. You can see most of it clearly. Just not that corner over there. All of that to say... Odium seems to have augmented Taravangian's Diagram in this scene, and it's very curious to me that the blackness of Renarin is in the same corner as these snippets relating to Taravangian's plans concerning Dalinar and the coalition. Snippets which have repeatedly proven hard to work with, at best. Theory: Renarin Kholin's ability to see the future has caused events concerning Dalinar and the coalition to diverge from what Taravangian originally predicted.

Ayt well I was experimenttinf with some new art supplies I got for Christmas, and I decided to do some skyward Fanart because I really loved it. Ayt well I know this is probably going to be crap but here we go! I'm going to do another big one of Jerkface and some minis of the other cadets. Anyway, here's Spensa and Rig! Yeet! Claim the stars my dudes, and post any skyward Fanart you did!

What novellas do y'all want to see? Personally, I hope we get one about Drehy and Skar escaping Kholinar with Gavinor.

I’m in the same timezone as you, but I’m going to be super busy tomorrow so happy 2-hour early birthday @TwiLyghtSansSparkles

As has been established, Voidus is the Ghostbloods, and Voidus is a part of the DA, therefore the ghostbloods are a part of the DA.

I can’t believe you wrote that in literally a minute.

Hey all. I'm guessing everyone reading this is already aware but just in case you're new/missed it; the Stormlight Archive will be produced in two five-book arcs. This means there will of course, be a gap between the books. From what I've seen/read it sounds like the consensus is 15 years. (Guessing there's a WoB I haven't read on the topic.) I suspect there will be something pretty momentous at the end of book 5 to cap things off. Now what do you suppose that could be? I don't have any solid theories myself yet, but varying ideas all running amok through my grey brain matter. *** Here's a not-entirely logical progression that's going through my brain about all this on the fly. Firstly, what would slow things down for a bit? Ie. Why is there the gap? I get it from a technical perspective, acts, pacing, etc, but there has to be an in-universe reason for the gap as well. I'm guessing it's going to be something pretty bad. The end of the first arc will undoubtedly have some sort of fitting conclusion for the first crew (Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar/etc) but I don't see things ending, er, happily... There needs to be a reason for the next arc to come around in the first place. A reason for the first group to go on hiatus for the interval as well. I doubt anything terribly important is going to happen during the gap. Or if it is it will be off-screen, referenced in the back 5 flashbacks. So a conclusion with a bit of a slowing down, but the promise of problems arising again. (Otherwise why have a gap at all?) Few things... First, Lift doesn't need stormlight to use her surges. That alone has me believing we'll get to a point where no one but her has access to their powers. How that's done I don't know, but the simple fact that everyone but her needs it to access their surges makes it pretty easy to see there will be a point where no one can use it, but her. Second, the reaction the Stormfather has to Odium. IMHO, the Stormfather is terrfied of him. But it was too much from a stoic stolid Stormfather for me to just brush off. Third, throughout the books we're seeing small tidbits of info passed to us in regards to Stormlight acting almost like a drug. Kaladin himself worries, "was this what it would be like every time he ran dry". At some point, someones going to run dry and it's not going to be pretty methinks! Well, what if everyone runs dry? (Everyone that isn't awesome that is.) Fourth, this quote from the Stormfather. "To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound. Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have." Time itself is a win, but then if it's a win, time will have a cost. That gap between books may not just be a "gap". It could be the product of a momentary win. A momentary win with a cost...? What is the cost? ... Odium(or something) kills the Stormfather. No more highstorms. No more Stormlight. I'm sure there will be some tit for tat in this exchange. The loss of the Stormfather as the price for winning the time between books. Odium's great counter-stroke to a plan from the KR that goes awry perhaps. In that same vein, I go back to Lift. She doesn't need Stormlight to surgebind... she'll have access to powers, and I could see her being the reason Stormlight comes back in book 6. It also fits in with the Honor/Cultivation duality we have. The front 5 seem particularly relevant to Honor. Cultivation is just sort of sitting back biding her time. Except we know she's not just sitting back. She directly impacted Dalinar like a chess piece to counter Odium's Champion plot. Cultivation seems to be playing the long game, and if I had to guess I'd say Cultivation is going to be more of the theme in the back 5 to compliment Honor in the front. Lift being something of her Champion possibly? (Thus she took from Lift the need for Honor and replaced it with sustenance, cultivation.) It also leaves us in an interesting, yet at the same times almost boring, point in the books. The perfect place for a 15 year gap. No radiance for the Radiants, a reason to slow down, retire, move onto other things, their lives. *** This is all off the top of my head as I write this and ponder, so now it's time for your ideas! (Cause I'm not at all sure I'm on the right track, albeit it makes some sense to me.) Cheers

Glue.

I’d like to out point you all with my thousands of arms.

The struggles of an incorporeal nightwielder (getting ignored, stuff falling through his hands, etc. An enforcer cell gets lost in the catacombs. Nighthawk cancel’s the office’s cellphone plan

This one deserves special emphasis because on re-read Taravangian quite explicitly spells out to Dalinar exactly how to capture a spren. If it were a worse writer I might dismiss this as simple plot contrivance, but since this is Brandon I think we can safely assume events played out this way for a reason. If anything, having Navani explain the process to Dalinar would have felt much more organic. Taravangian being the one to do it seems important (and likely a clue).

First off, I agree with @Calderis and @teknopathetic that the diagram is a master work of Cultivation, and that it required the intervention of Cultivation to pull it off. His variable intelligence is probably not random at all, but is rather the key to how the Diagram functions. As the architect, primary interpreter and only one allowed to modify the diagram, Taravangian is the Living Key to the complex cipher that is the diagram. This seems to me that Cultivation created the Diagram with her futuresight, and built in the capacity for self-correction with T's boon/bane. When the Diagram is humming along as it should be, T has one of his weeping and drooling days, when small course corrections are required he get's a highly intelligent day to make annotations / minor corrections to the course of the Diagram, and when the causal chains of events have spun severely out of line with the overall plan he gets a brilliant day (like the day that he changes his plans about Dalinar). I don't necessarily agree with this. Renarin was spared by Jasnah as an act of compassion and there was an alternative future where Renarin was killed by Jasnah that Odium still sees. T met with Odium during one of his compassionate dumb days, and was thinking about his grandkids when he struck the new deal with Odium. It seems highly significant to me that T knows about the one person who exists outside of Odium's futuresight (who is still alive because of a compassionate act), sounds like a hidden dagger to me. I've speculated before that maybe Odium is blinded by Compassion, and maybe that's the secret to why T, on his dumb days is extra opaque to Odium. I don't think this is true, and the proof for this being not the case is that the version of the Diagram that Odium brought up contained part of the Diagram that Odium himself couldn't see. I think it's more the case that Odium drew forth the whole diagram in toto, and then possibly attempted to muddy the waters by the future additions (which Taravangian would have obsessed over if he had been having a more brilliant day). I actually don't agree with this at all, the second WoB you quote shows that they are distinct and disparate entities, this line in particular (emphasis added): If they are virtually the same thing, then what lesson is the Nightwatcher learning by bestowing boons/banes? This is inline with a speculative theory of mine, the foundation is solid but the superstructure is a little shaky. My theory is that the Nightwatcher is a "Remade", that she is actually Chemoarish, and Cultivation is rehabilitating her after her Unmaking from Odium. The descriptions of the Nightwatcher from OB are super creepy, and the fact that Cultivation is supervising the Nightwatcher while she dispense boons/banes is odd unless there is a reason that the Nightwatcher might need to supervise the NW. I know the full text of the above WoB says that Cultivation doesn't intervene to change the NW's boons, but this could be because at this point the Nightwatcher is rehabilitated enough that she only needs supervision and not intervention. And there's this WoB that says that the green mist that is suffusing the Nightwatcher is actually Cultivation investiture: The fact that Cultivation is described as a warm soft brownish color (and not green and misty) implies to me that the Nightwatcher is suffused with and not necessarily composed of Cultivation investiture. The connection to Chemoarish is more tentative, here's the only information we get about which is from Hessi's Mythica: And like the follwing WoB, it's always struck me as peculiar that there are 3 Invested shards and 3 Bondsmiths on Roshar: The parity between God level spren and shards seems significant, and I think that it worked out like this (total speculation here, but almost to the level of reasoned conjecture). We know from WoBs that were existent spren on Roshar before the 3 were Invested in Roshar and that the magical ecology of Roshar predates the arrival of the Shards. So I think that there were already god level spren on Roshar pre-splintering and that they were responsible for maintaing the Ecology of Roshar: The Stormfather for distributing Investiture to accomplish singer transformations and to distribute Crem. The Sibling (most likely LifeBrother) who was responsible for infusing the Crem with additional investiture to make plants grow on the Rocky soil of Roshar. The Nightwatcher, responsible for the Old magic that flows out to creatures on Roshar (magical purelake fish, Floating Island great shells, Chasmfiends, etc). When Investing on Roshar, the 3 shards got one of each of these ecological god level spren, and the Bondsmiths were able to bond these god level spren. Honor got the Storms to distribute Stormlight, Cultivation got LifeBrother (aka the Sibling, who I also think is a collection of StormStriders that move with the Highstorm) to infuse crem with investiture to aid life on roshar (I think it's a magical side effect that plant's can move on roshar) and Odium got the Nightwatcher (and then Unmade the Nightwatcher to turn her into Chemoarish). One of the problems with the 3 Bondsmiths bond the 3 god spren theory is the obvious question of why would Odium's god spren bond a KR? I think the answer to this is that the KR bondsmith responsible for bonding the Odium controlled god spren bonded the spren forcibly and was necessary to contain Chemoarish. The Dustmother (there is definitely a naming parallel with Stormfather there) is a pretty frightening name and she was probably a pretty horrible force when loose on Roshar. How did Cultivation rehabilitate the Dustmother and turn her into the Nightwatcher? Well, she has had the 4,500 years since Aharietiam to Un-Unmake Chemoarish, and most likely convinced her to sign up because the Nightwatcher loves giving out freaky banes (Check out that guy that walks on his hands because I made him see the world updised down, green misty tendril high five cultivation).

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Yeah, thats the one. I dont remember name-changing him to Gimmel though...

Logmul of Sdrawckab opened a dust-covered eye and attempted to reorient herself. What was this? A competition? She was supposed to kill people? By drawing things with chalk? How? Where was she, anyway? She's have to ask where she'd ended up afterward, if she survived. Looks like everyone was hastily starting already - tracing their first lines, rushing over to each other, rivalries and alliances crystallizing among the crowd, only to be shattered as the game would progress. Hesitantly, Logmul of Sdrawkcab picked up a piece of chalk and silently watched the intricate shapes being drawn. She watched, and she drew her first lines...

The Shard that just wants to survive planted an idea in Ati's mind to manipulate Leras into coming up with his plan so that Harmony would offer to help Hoid if he could, which would scare Odium, who would also be responding (unwittingly) to the plan that Autonomy set in motion to get Ambition killed, which also led to the deaths of Aona and Skai, who secretly implanted Hoid with an incomplete Elantrian trigger so that he could use Sandweaving to trick Endowment into thinking that he was from Taldain so that Khriss would end up on Nalthis and put something extra in Nightblood, all for the sake of getting Szeth to pick up Nightblood and put something extra in Azure (if you know what I mean ) so that Azure's child can trick Zahel into marrying the Nightwatcher, which is going to trigger Cultivation's plan to trick Taravangian intro tricking Dalinar into tricking Odium into tricking the Shard that just wants to survive into Investing in a world. Then PRESTO Adonalsium reforms and says, "This was My secret plan all along!" before the God Beyond appears and turns everyone into sticks. EDIT: Kelsier is involved here, too, he's tricking Mraize into travelling through time to make it possible for Khriss to assist the Five Scholars despite being their successor.

This. Except he does not deserve to die. To damnation (Braize) with him!

TLR is the sorting hat.

I'm the... I'm... Who knows at this point. Maybe Grandpa's crazy friend who sticks his head out of the basement now and then?

I disagree. Moash is the devil incarnate. All those who say likewise are about as trustworthy as the Ghostbloods. I am sorry @Dalakaar.

I hate Moash more than Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter. That's saying something.

Um

Someone had to say Words that we must all expect Yes, I am a Stick.

The Sibling was sleeping during the Weeping while the Chimney Sweeps were Sweeping, but Kaladin had a Salad in the Shower of the Tower when the fateful Hour struck and the Sibling was unstuck from the lumbering of his slumbering and the power in the tower turned back on. I have a disease, similar to Tourretes, where whenever I hear alliteration of certain variety I have to compose a Dr. Seuss like bit of nonsense. Please continue your discussion.

Chapter Five: Smoke and Ash Big thank you's to @Alyssum314 and @ladymxdnight for helping with this chapter!

Chapter One: Oathbreaker