What makes the Deepest Ones different?

[InsaneScotsman he/him]

So, in my re-reading of Arcanum Unbounded I came to one of my favourite shorts, Mistborn: Secret History. At the portion where Kelsier meets with Khriss and Nazh I couldn't help but notice something Nazh said that I hadn't picked up on before.

Quote

"One doesn't merely decide to become a shadow! It's an important rite! With requirements and traditions." - Mistborn: Secret History

This caught me and I started thinking, is it possible for one to ritualistically become a shade using whatever magic may be present on Threnody? Generally shades come about due to some weirdness in Threnody's investiture (maybe cos of large chunks of Ambition being ripped off in this system) but if one were to purposely create a shade, would it be a more powerful kind or simply like all other shades. One possibility that came to mind could be that this is how the one-time mentioned Deepest Ones come to be.

Quote

"God Beyond protect them if the fighting had drawn one of the Deepest Ones." Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell

What do you all think? Is there some other info floating around out there about Threnodite shades and The Deepest Ones, could someone like Kelsier be analogous to The Deepest Ones? This is my first theory so apologies if this has been spoken about before, I look forward to hearing all your opinions on the subject, Threnody is super mysterious and so much fun to think about.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I completely forgot that Nazh talked about rituals for becoming a shade. That makes no sense, why would you ever want to become a shade? There must be something else going on with that, but we probably won’t find out for a couple decades.

[Fezzik]

33 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I completely forgot that Nazh talked about rituals for becoming a shade. That makes no sense, why would you ever want to become a shade? There must be something else going on with that

Perpendicularities on Threnody are unstable and have a morbid origin. Mayhaps there is a connection. "Hey, we need to find someone to ritually murder; I have a hankering for chouta and need to get off-world."

[InsaneScotsman he/him]

1 hour ago, John203 said:

Perpendicularities on Threnody are unstable and have a morbid origin. Mayhaps there is a connection. "Hey, we need to find someone to ritually murder; I have a hankering for chouta and need to get off-world."

I always imagined perpendicularities on Threnody to be caused by concentrations of deaths all at once, say a small village or something. All the extra investiture needed to create a shade flooding to make multiple shades in close proximity makes a brief, small, unstable perpendicularity

[Gasper he/him]

47 minutes ago, InsaneScotsman said:

I always imagined perpendicularities on Threnody to be caused by concentrations of deaths all at once, say a small village or something. All the extra investiture needed to create a shade flooding to make multiple shades in close proximity makes a brief, small, unstable perpendicularity

I have thought something similar for a while. Possibly a back to the future like jump start needed to get into the perpendiculary.

[+Invocation]

4 hours ago, InsaneScotsman said:

I always imagined perpendicularities on Threnody to be caused by concentrations of deaths all at once, say a small village or something. All the extra investiture needed to create a shade flooding to make multiple shades in close proximity makes a brief, small, unstable perpendicularity

I thought it was either that or a bunch of Shades gathering in one location because of a breach of the Simple Rules or something else drew them and the location being small enough pierces a hole into the Cognitive.

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 2/8/2019 at 2:30 PM, StrikerEZ said:

I completely forgot that Nazh talked about rituals for becoming a shade. That makes no sense, why would you ever want to become a shade? There must be something else going on with that, but we probably won’t find out for a couple decades.

Maybe you would be semi sentient and would be able to protect your family. After all, Silence's shade had some sort of consciousness and was able to protect Silence. It would be an interesting form of ancestor worship. 

It would be interesting if The Deepest Ones were something like The Ire. In Secret History, the Ire speak as if Threnody was a player, not just a horde of angry shades. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by teknopathetic

[Lidolas he/him]

On 2/8/2019 at 1:30 PM, StrikerEZ said:

I completely forgot that Nazh talked about rituals for becoming a shade. That makes no sense, why would you ever want to become a shade? There must be something else going on with that, but we probably won’t find out for a couple decades.

I don't have my copy, but I don't think Nazh was talking about becoming a shade, but rather a cognitive shadow.  I see shades as a small subset of those.

[Inky]

It could be like actual cognitive shadow business on Threnody was a big thing in the culture before Ambition's wayward power messed up the planet, and all the cognitive shadows became Shades 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 2/8/2019 at 10:30 PM, StrikerEZ said:

I completely forgot that Nazh talked about rituals for becoming a shade. That makes no sense, why would you ever want to become a shade?

Immortality, sort of. For the same reason Kelsier became one.

[Jetter he/him]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Immortality, sort of. For the same reason Kelsier became one.

That is what I had assumed. My take on the deepest ones were something along the lines of a person achieving "immortality" by becoming a cognitive shadow, but maybe everything they touch dies and becomes a shade which then kills and makes other shades. So I was thinking of them as sort of the original shades with a functional mind, though who knows what time would do to said mind (the shades degrade over time as well).

[StrikerEZ he/him]

On 2/14/2019 at 8:04 AM, Oltux72 said:

Immortality, sort of. For the same reason Kelsier became one.

Well yeah, if they don’t mind becoming mindless and unable to stop themselves from killing people. I just don’t understand how anyone would want to become a shade, unless there are different types of shades that we are unaware of. 

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well yeah, if they don’t mind becoming mindless and unable to stop themselves from killing people. I just don’t understand how anyone would want to become a shade, unless there are different types of shades that we are unaware of. 

I think Nazh was talking about a rite to become a Shadow, as in Cognitive Shadow, not a Shade specifically.  There are tons of different Cognitive Shadows kicking around including Kelsier, The Returned, The Heralds, and even the Stormfather himself (who was a spren that is now bonded to/Merged with the Cognitive Shadow of the former Vessel of Honor) and most are not the mindless killing machines that the Threnoly Shades are.  In general terms all it really takes is a significant amount of Investiture at the time of Death to prevent them from moving Beyond, and sometimes an Anchor of sorts that holds them (which can be as simply as your classic Unfinished Business ghost trope).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 15/02/2019 at 3:40 PM, Quantus said:

I think Nazh was talking about a rite to become a Shadow, as in Cognitive Shadow, not a Shade specifically.

I agree.

On 15/02/2019 at 3:40 PM, Quantus said:

  There are tons of different Cognitive Shadows kicking around including Kelsier, The Returned, The Heralds, and even the Stormfather himself (who was a spren that is now bonded to/Merged with the Cognitive Shadow of the former Vessel of Honor) and most are not the mindless killing machines that the Threnoly Shades are.  In general terms all it really takes is a significant amount of Investiture at the time of Death to prevent them from moving Beyond, and sometimes an Anchor of sorts that holds them (which can be as simply as your classic Unfinished Business ghost trope).

But that turns the question around. If Threnodians had a ritual to turn you into a Cognitive Shadow, why did a significant number of people not use that option?

That requires basically a death wish. There must have been a downside to the decision, too, or it would have become an obvious no-brainer.

[Fezzik]

You couldn't have waited just a few days? The last post was Feb. 15, so you could have brought it back on the one year anniversary.

[Honorless he/him]

I think the Deepest Ones are drawn by humans fighting Shades, which is the impression I got from how & when Silence mentioned them.

This seems contradictory to the idea that these would be the more sapient variety that people willingly try or tried to transform into

Edited March 25, 2020 by Dreamer
edited out the term 'spren'

[Draginon he/him]

When I hear Deepest Ones I immediately think of Deep Ones and remember that Threnody is kind of gothic horror. What if Threnody has Lovecraftian myths? What if these are Cosmere versions of the Deep Ones themselves?

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

In Mistborn: Secret History, Part 5 "Ire" Chapter 2, the Elantrians are concerned that Threnodites are there in Scadrial's CR; the Ire group's leader Alonoe says, "The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage." So I'm guessing that these "powers" are maybe the "Deepest Ones" being discussed in this thread? [Edit: I see that @teknopathetic posted something like this above - credit where credit's due.]

Gotta love the Cosmere! So many secrets!

Edited February 10, 2020 by Lump-wing

[+robardin he/him]

On 2/9/2020 at 7:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

But that turns the question around. If Threnodians had a ritual to turn you into a Cognitive Shadow, why did a significant number of people not use that option?

That requires basically a death wish. There must have been a downside to the decision, too, or it would have become an obvious no-brainer.

For the same reason that Rashek chose not to, even though as one who had touched the power of a Shard, the Beyond could not take him if he didn't want to go (as post-Ascension Kelsier realized about himself in Secret History). Vin could have chosen to stay on as a shadow, for the same reason and in the same way, but refused - heck, both she and Elend turned down the offer from the newly Ascended Sazed not just to become Cognitive Shadows, or even something physical (but Shardically bound) as the Heralds and the Fused are on Roshar, but to full on recorporate.

As Preservation said to Kelsier when Rashek departed:

Quote

Kelsier gaped. "He left?"

"To the Somewhere Else," Fuzz said, sitting down. ...

"He didn't have to leave," Kelsier said. "He could have remained. Could have survived!"

"I told you, by this point rational people want to move on." Fuzz vanished.

It takes a special kind of motivation, combined with the right knowledge and amount of Investiture (being a full Mistborn helped Kelsier "stick" in the Cognitive Realm long enough to reach the Well and leap in), to become a Cognitive Shadow.

And evidently for Nazh, such an act has a proper way to go about it!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

For the same reason that Rashek chose not to, even though as one who had touched the power of a Shard, the Beyond could not take him if he didn't want to go (as post-Ascension Kelsier realized about himself in Secret History). Vin could have chosen to stay on as a shadow, for the same reason and in the same way, but refused - heck, both she and Elend turned down the offer from the newly Ascended Sazed not just to become Cognitive Shadows, or even something physical (but Shardically bound) as the Heralds and the Fused are on Roshar, but to full on recorporate.

As Preservation said to Kelsier when Rashek departed:

It takes a special kind of motivation, combined with the right knowledge and amount of Investiture (being a full Mistborn helped Kelsier "stick" in the Cognitive Realm long enough to reach the Well and leap in), to become a Cognitive Shadow.

And evidently for Nazh, such an act has a proper way to go about it!

But what is that reason, even if Rashek shared it? What do you have to lose? The existance of a CS, going by Kelsier's example, isn't horrible and you have a new world to explore. You could bond the living. You get some magical powers. Why go immediately without pressing need?

You can always go later. Or can you?

[+robardin he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But what is that reason, even if Rashek shared it? What do you have to lose?

[Eternal Khol he/him]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But what is that reason, even if Rashek shared it? What do you have to lose? The existance of a CS, going by Kelsier's example, isn't horrible and you have a new world to explore. You could bond the living. You get some magical powers. Why go immediately without pressing need?

You can always go later. Or can you?

its simple.

 Living is harder than dying