IlstrawberrySeed

Their converting the mass into investiture and vice versa. Investiture has no weight or mass, so there is no issue storing in the metalmind. And the "at rest" argument seems to work for me except with the fact that the relative motion is the same no matter the frame of reference. I'm definitely headconanizing this.

I personally disagree with this. First, Burning a pure Shardmetal isn't Alomancy, it's another magic system. Thus, burning a shardmatal-base alloy would be a hybrid magic like compounding. This other shardmetal magic is universal. Additionally, more recent WoB suggest that connection isn't required. That said, there is a nugget of evidence suggesting that pure Shardmetals burned by an allomancer can either do the shardmetal thing or something else. The latter may require connection to the shard, but this seems unlikely to me. As such, allomancy isn't unnaturally universal when used with shardmetals, since it's a different magic system. Secondly, Hemalurgy is an unusual magic system in that it's naturally universal, just like shardmetal burning. There is no need for shardmetal versions of hemalurgy (if it's hemalurgy instead of shardmetal magic) to be unnaturally universal. As neither Hemalurgy nor "Allomancy" being made unnaturally universal when used with shardmetals, I don't see feurochemistry being unnaturally universal with shardmetalminds.

Ah, good point. Not really, when your number one argument seems to be it's not a closed system. A useful PMM is made to secrete energy into another system, something which necessitates it not being a closed system, and not being isolated. Say you isolate worlhopeprs, and the shroud reflects 100% of energy from space (including UTol), and you had borders in the CR, and you set aside a specific amount of investiture from the SR (to account for births, etc.) The spirits would reform forever due to energy->investiture conversion being the inverse of the investiture->energy conversion, which is what is outputting the usable energy. Basically, it turns ambient, unusable, energy into useful, suedo-electric, invested energy, at no recurring cost. ???? Ok. Ok, I understand your take on spirits splitting/not now. It seems reasonable, and the differences don't seem to apply to the argument.

Something like a spren bond should fill cracks. The more powerful the bond, the more cracks are filled and/or the more effectively their filled.

You're misunderstanding some of what I'm trying to say. I have never heard of that necessity for natural cognitive entities, where did you here that? Except nothing is truly a closed system. It's whole point is to release energy and bring it back, meaning that for it to be closed, you need to include the whole planet. But worldhoppers go there, so you have to include all the systems worldhoppers go to, and all the forces, etc, until you end up with the whole cosmere. You can't draw a line somewhere and say "it works." There is always something interacting with it, and what you need to show to make it a cosmere PMM is that given XY & Z, the limit as time approaches infinity of the situation is concurrent with the present. That's what I was saying. In-world, they would think it's PMM, but I suspected that it wasn't because of the Feruchemistry thing. Because the ideal of a PMM is also a flawed premise, and you can't go after someone for not responding to your evidence without also following them down their reasoning. He has also said in a WoB that it's hard, if it's even possible. For one, time doesn't exist in the SR, so all investiture in the CR and PR is simultaneously in the SR, but "allocated" such that it cannot be pulled out multiple times. I don't understand this take, would you explain further?

Right. That's what I said. It is PMM if you consider the Spirits as part of the system or you don't limit it to closed systems, since it required something to turn it off, not wearing down on it's own. I don't believe that's the only explanation. Remember that Mater and Energy can be converted to investiture, the heat/light/etc. created by the spirits could convert back into the investiture of said spirit. Keyword could. I personally don't have a solid opinion. As your later WoB edit confirms, I thought it was more likely "perfect" in the same way "feurochemistry" is 1:1. As in negligibly not. This argument will go nowhere if you don't respond to the analogies given the analogies. Sure, the analogy is impossible, but so are all models we use. I specifically referenced the probability of gems not being truly perfect. That is partially correct. There is a difference between having infinity and proving that the limit as time approaches infinity the machine is concurrent to the machine at t=0. If you have infinity as part of an equation, something's wrong, but infinity in limits is OK. Brandon Says he wants Thermodynamics to hold, but has said it is difficult to make them work. For example, to have a spirit split to make energy, it must be in a lower energy state. However, it reforms naturally, meaning the natural state must be in a lower energy state. Alternatively, it reforms enough to gather energy, but then the argument would be if the ambient energy is required or if all investiture and energy was converted to matter but one hijo, would it reform after being split into hion.

@Frustration@Nameless*@therunner I once again fell into the trap of not saving my response even though I was getting it done in one sitting, so this is going to be less refined being my frustrated take 2. There are 3 conversations going on, and I will adress all of them in their own Headings. Conjoined Fabrial Mechanics I'm not the first to think this, but it was quickly dismised before. The main difference between this and other views is that the ratio that matters is the Gem:Total ratio, so if the Gem to Gem ratio was 1:5, the movement would be 1/6 or 5/6 of the expected movement, and the smaller gem gives more torque (if rotating) to the larger Gem, meaning disproportionate Gems (in flight) would be used most effectively to make Chulls pull harder for less for the same distance flown, allowing more consistent movement, while smaller gems can be used for elevation to minimize weights. PMM I don't think the Terris Wheel is PMM. 1: It requires negligible energy in the form of brain waves, but also you need food and water, bendalloy, Dor, or Etc. to keep it running. I do think that the FM would have ran forever given that the Hion/Hijo dispersed & reformed faster than they were produced/consumed, because they would reform due to being entities that are not killed. Even Nightblood's kills return back to the SR. That is only if you consider the spirits as part of the system or you don't limit it to isolated systems, which most everyone but Frus seem to not. l think Frus's latest design has promise but isn't quite there. For one, you can get rid of the Fabrial clocks by using well placed pieces of ralkalest, but you still need stormlight for the conjoiners and the output. That doesn't mean it isn't incredibly useful, turning stormlight into energy more efficiently than anything else other than a perfect gem. On Perfect Gems, they emit light, which should be able to be harnessed, but loose no light, according to Brandon. Therefore, unless it's like the whole Feruchemistry thing, they would be a PMM on it's own, provided you can use the energy produced to protect it from damage. I don't think that Rithmatic style Awakening produces a PMM either, since the material wears. Even if you replace it, it is doubtful that realistic Mass and Breaths can create enough energy to convert some energy into investiture to heal the Mass. I say realistic, because if you take up a shard and make a planet sized thing and awakened it, and had a suitably large generator it operated, it would likely be enough, especially since damage becomes less important due to the square-cube law. I think the most likely one involves Perpendicularities and the Height difference from CR to PR. Teleportation Skyward was going to be in the cosmere, except he wrote it too early, so it would have too many spoilers, so I extrapolate from minor spoilers about its magic. TLDR, or no spoilers, I think the way I think teleportation works in the cosmere (^) supports that the investiture required to teleport is above the threshold of any energy differential caused by teleportation.

Brandon Has confirmed that Yumi is immortal (aging wise) (Shard cast interview) but her perception will likely cause her to age, though probably not to the point of death. Additionally, he confirmed that most Yuki Hijo are slightly less invested than an Alantrian. I do think there is another difference though, an Alantrian is basically an investiture sink, at all moments so much investiture is being shoved through their bodies that they glow like Radiants from leakage. Their investiture is more like Svanthood than Breaths or Yuki, since those go to the soul directly.

I know that there were ones that could burn Dur ilium, and I read the part (WoB? Annotation?) where it talks about Ruin generally thinking it a waste to spike a mistborn for it, preferring instead to have misborn inquisitors.

It's maybe inert - being that it doesn't make someone sick, but an incorrect alloy does. If one were to burn a non-viable metal, it *probably* makes someone sick, but it isn't garunteed. However, with it being the other half of electrum, I would expect it to count as an incorrect alloy unless it was also a viable metal in its own right.

TotES

On the combining shards, We know that P+R should be Creation, in it's most stable form. Aditianally, while Harmony the intent could be pretty stable, Harmony-Sazed is not acting under the Intent of Harmony, but mostly under the intent of Preservation. Do to this, I personally believe that the most important part of a shard combination's most stable state is what the components did while they were separate. The Vessel has an impact, and their actions, perception, and intents are some of the most important (IMO) factors for the "expressed" intent. If all shards were combined, it might not reform into the same this as Ado. Supposedly, all the intents existed equally in Ado, but in the theorizing we can do about Creation (with no actual evidence) has Ruin expressed more than Preservation. So, I think it's unlikely to get another thing Adonalstic in nature, but it might be Adonalstic in other ways. I suspect that the only way to pry out info about this from brandon would ask about if you shattered a shard, and sequestered one of the, say, 5, and the other 4 interacted in different ways, and then you combined all 5 in all 30ish ways consecutively, would the results be the same, and were any of the results the original shard?

How is it paradoxically additive?

It's assuming that metals shift imediatly to the new function when the function swaps. So Harmonium would be no more when Discordium exists (which is an unknown) We can simply subtract the 16 original metals, double it, and then att the 16, since anti-investititure can react with inestiture regardless of shard-orientation. However, the real question is whether solid alloys are possible to make between anti- & regular investiture, both of diferent shards and the same shard, but there ain't no way to make mixed shardmetals (ex: harmonium, but anti-ruin).

This is one theory. I don't know why he would do it, but if it were from Kel, we don't know why he did it. All I'm saying is it's a possibility, and therfore the medalian doesn't prove Kel can use medalions. We also know very little about the Feruchemical-ish possibilities of breaths, which could have transphered the memory from Kel to someone who could store it. All I was pointing out is that we don't know that Kel can/could use medalions, and I personally think that it makes more sense if he never could than can but won't or could but can't.

Ultimate metal count clarifications (such as "are shard-base alloys allomancy or something different in YOUR mind" and "do all 19k+ digits of metals have unuique effects") What's up with Gold Hemalurgy? (It's useless, other metals do what it does better) Questions about an eclectic world & ttrpg that includes multiple universes melded including the cosmere. How to best incorperate magic systems into Shard/Adinalstic/other basis. How magic systems like Rithmatics and Cytonics would have changed if he'd stuck them in the cosmere What pairs of shards to use for Values (I asked the shard, but I still want his answer) Effect of Rasdium wire + metalminds in various fashions. A simple set of 4 shards each shard could shatter into.

There are other ways this could have happened, including it being Hoid's memory of an illusion he himself created, weather accurately or not. I personally think this makes more sense than him being able to use medallions but not using them.

I just finished, and honestly thought that the current dimension was the "most substantial" / "Highest on the tree" / "original river," but don't see that expressed in the forums. How do we know that isn't the case?

These were the 2 I was refrencing.

Brandon said the other way can work too when talking about keyless items vs keyless people, and also mentioned there are other ways than these. (Rasdium wire to a metalmind anyone?)

It also could have something to do with Gold Hemalurgy - it's always seemed off. The rest of the Hemalurgic -> Feruchemical metals can get the hybrids related to it's quadrant, so why a spike that can only have 4 instead of 5/6 options, and that are duplicates (unlike the H-A, which are all 4 uniques)? I suspect it's an in-world misconception, much like Atium spikes taking Higher/temporal metals rather than any ability. I really don't see Gold hemalurgy only stealing those 4 with no other benefits. (Preface, little known fact is that a WoB says that a single spike can steal multiple powers [with a single pass IIRC], though it's unknown in-world). Perhaps it has a bind point that can take 3/4, and the others only have points that can 3/4 if none are hybrid, but with the number of bindpoints in the Heart that seems unlikely as well.

This is valid, but I'm doing this for a specific purpose in mind, (posted above), so it isn't really an argument against trying, like it could have been if I was actually curious.

The extra abilities are also dictated by material, likely having something to do with fabrial mechanics. I wish we know what Vivena's sword was made of, if it's not allomantically viable, that could play into the whole "not conscious" thing.

I thought they mentioned securing the wagon via ropes. I don't have the book to double check though.