IlstrawberrySeed

We know that all of the atium alloys have temporal and mental effects, and I have a theory on that, though not one I've posted. In the annotations, Brandon implies that the Lerasium bead is part of a fourth magic system. Shardmetals. But it operates incredibly similarly to allomancy. So, the effect of the alloys (There are 17+ possible alloys of atium and electrum, but less than infinity. Part of me wants to believe that Brandon was wiggling out of this with actual alloys and the fact there is a limited amount of investiture/matter/energy, so anywhere from one atom to the rest of the matter/energy/investiture used for ratios work.) are based on the interactions between the metals. We know that gold and electrum look into the spiritual realm to show you visions of yourself. We think that P-atium shows an expansive vision of the spiritual realm. We know most visions that come from the spiritual realm are filtered through the cognitive. P-Atium, if it does what we think, is probably filtered through the cognitive, so it touches the cognitive and spiritual realms. All alloys have cognitive or spiritual effects. Enhanced spiritual Past would show you other's past, those connected to you via location. Same with Enhanced spiritual future. I made this whole argument for Malatium storing other emotions before I remembered that Malatium is a gold alloy, not an electrum alloy, that's nalatium. You can read it if you want.

The little bit is in refrence to decay in power compared to Era 1, not decay as in not 1 to 1. The WoB implies it wasn't 1 to 1 in Era 1. I know you were being illustrative, but I want to bring it up whenever I am going to reply anyway. It isn't a huge deal, but it's technically not right, so I bring it up. And I understand why you did it like you did - It's the closest to real math we get. Intrestingly, if we get burn rates of normal and fuerochemical metals, we will actually get our first investiture unit that isn't arbitrary nor effect based.

Part of the confusion is there are 3 people who mostly agree with minor points describing it diffrenlty, in ways that are counter to each other, despite @therunner claiming he sees it the same way. (we might, I might just be misunderstanding his description. Read below to find out!) The way I understand it (and it's very similar to the MAG, though I thought this before reading those,) is that you burn the invested bit in X seconds, getting an amount of investiture equal to that used to get 10 seconds of speed, then the rest of the steel is regular steel that can be burnt in the regular Y seconds. X is not 10 (unless there is a coincidence) With 60B seconds, you burn it in X2 seconds, getting an amount of investiture equivalent to the investiture required to tap 600B seconds of speed. Then you have Y seconds worth of regular steel. X2 is not 600B. You just get an amount of investiture during those X seconds comparable to the investiture you get/use from/by tapping speed for 600B seconds, distrobuted evenly over X2 seconds. X2/60B = X/1, and X2/600B = X/10. The issue with the "magical breakpoint" is that our investiture units are actually units of the effect of the investiture, which is very confusing. You get 10 seconds worth of speed in X seconds, or 600B in X2 seconds, not it 10 seconds or 600B seconds. The key is to differentiate when the units are what they claim to be, or if they are investiture units. Investiture, not necessarily attribute. I can see multiple interpretations of #1, and I only agree with one of them. I actually didn't read it that way the first time, only the 4th time I reread it to respond. Would you be explain what you mean by "proportional to the metal charged?" (I know there is a not before it.) Absolutely. I disagree with this intensely, (which confuses me, since you agree with my description later on,) the amount of metal burned is proportional to the investitrue inside the metal. Unless of course you meant % charge, in which I could agree, but that is a confusing way to write it (for me). Makes sense, but I do believe someone born with it could pick it up and learn how to do it. The inquisitors were all adults, and had there spiritweb marred, and had weaker compounding. So could I, I don't have the book to check. Which part? You adress the ccs later, so I assume it's the maximum in a metalmind, but why would it? It would be an arbitrary cap before the metal becomes saturated, because max saturation is actually an issue. (see nightblood) If my third sentance, we have a WoB on it, about the weakening of feruchemistry. I meant keeping only a small bit to use yourself. Net gain is 900%, so if you kept 200% of gross, then you would have 800% to continue compounding with at probably 250% speed. Also, the faster you compound the steel, the more investiture your getting in a second, so it is a positive feedback loop, no matter the amount you cycle back into the compounding. That might be the WoB I was thinking about. I'll paraphrase what I remember: I don't see why this wouldn't be the same for compounding - your channeling investiture from a source to a metalmind. The different source shouldn't be a whole lot, and if it was what we were thinking, it would be compression rates. But it's not, so it has to be that some investiture is used in filling. That is the only conclusion I can come up with. It also rectifies Brandon's statements that it isn't 1 to 1, but tapping at the same rate doesn't have compression. I personally think that the latter are just outdated, and there is compression no matter the rate, but also that there is investiture used in filling, but that is an argument for another thread. Survivability as in it takes awhile for the radiant to assassinate them while they play purely defensibly. There isn't a way a mistborn without magitech to kill a windrunner with stormlight. A normal mistborn cannot outrun a windrunner, but one with bendalloy savanthood can, as can one with the specific thing discussed against a 5th ideal radiant in TLM/cosmere spoiler board. But, the mistborn is fast enough to make it take a while with the horseshoe trick (that can turn, can't it?). With F-gold and F-Steel, a fullborn can outrun a windrunner with the horseshoe trick, and can actually heal from the projectiles if they get hit. That is absolutly my bad, definitly not 24ccs then. Any idea the volume of TBoM? @alder24 I was wrong, it's not about 24ccs per metal in TBoM. I mean that fullborn has enough precognitive and cognitive abilities that they may as well have atium when they don't have atium, the effects are basically as good. D-Burning is dangerous if you don't channel it. D-Tapping is the same thing as being necroburst while tapping, they are the same effects, but touch range instead of self range. And it is only dangerous with sufficently large metalminds - a minmaxing fullborn would inplant tiny metalminds inside skin tight clothing. Likely weaved from larger metalminds as well for duration tapping. Small metalminds are just supperior to small ones in every way unless the size levels (it doesn't scale as a function of mass) increase the investiture/gram ratio by significant amounts. 1 It was a joke 2 leftover from Era 1. Darn it, I really have no idea what your referencing, I don't want to reread it already, I have 7 books on my bedstand and another at the library already. What about mentioning me next time it becomes relevent on either of the TLM boards. With steel/iron in a city, sure. With the horseshoe trick (not windrunners, but skybreakers, unless there is a way to prevent RL or is actually using "roads" (feilds of them, not actually a road. Unless it twists and turns and the windrunner has no idea where it goes.)) not so much. There isn't anything on scadrial effected by connection AFAIK. There wouldn't be anything impressive to do with it, unlike if a fuerochemist elantrian used F-Durilium to bypass the location requirement. Thanks! K. That's fair, but ity isn't 10*, its probably more like 2.5; (or 8.5,) (we don't know the rate the investiture is burned per mole, but thestored strength is max of .75ish, and then the investiture is multiplied by 10, and I believe diminishing returns apply to compounding, but even without it would only be 8.5;) and the mass is stored, but it still requires investiture during the compounding. However that can be mitigated via using A-Pewter strength repeatedly to dull the mass down. I'm fine with saying pewter burns faster than F-pewter for the sake of argument, but I personally disagree. I would very much like to see that (for reason's unrelated to this argument). Good to know though. K Good Job!

It does say it stores health on the fuerochemical chart. I am adopting this idea. 2 things. I don't think fill rate effects tap rate efficiency. I think attribute turns into investiture, some (linear, but doesn't have to be) of that investiture is used to move it to the metal, then tapping rates are constant. 2, Double isn't 1 to 1, at least in era 2. See above. IT As TLR was tapping large amounts at once, the compression would increase. If he has to tap at over 800 years, then the linear increase would be at about X=50, if not greater. 2 things again single isn't 1 to 1, at least in Era 2. I know I keep bringing it up, but I will keep bringing it up if I am responding anyway. Second, I think your loss is incredibly reasonable. I don't think it's exactly accurate, but I do believe that it is the right ball park.

But gems leak, jars don't. Not in a direct fight. investiture fueled mistborn vs windrunners has no chance until the windrunners are running low on investiture, possibly even until they are out. No chance to even run away from soulcasting though, they can just make an aluminum cube, (filling the air around you, not completely hollow,) and the only way to get out is to D-burn pewter, but that is so much investiture advantage on the radiant side. Radiant can drain them until they become a regular person that can be soulcast, or they can drown/suffocate them, etc. I suspect division will be an issue, but we don't know much about it. Mistborn's only chance is to win the investiture endurance challenge. Best way to do that is to run. Does it? They don't have to run out of bounds, just use less investure in surviving that the radiant. RUnnign away is the best, but not the only (for some orders) way to do that. Also, why for the second bit? With Bendalloy they are faster on turns. Both of them gain speed in straitaways, but Windrunner cannot keep up without G-forces they cannot stand, Edgedancers are a maybe.

Right. I explained it porly: Stab a counshot, lurcher, or mistborn. I'll say coinshot for now, but it works either way. Give the steel spike granting A-steel to someone. Have them burn steel, so they have steelsight. Stab them with a tin spike to steel the steelsight. This can be deadly. Remove the steel spike from them, and give it to someone else. Repeat steps 3-5 to get an infinite number of tinspikes granting steelsight from a single coinshot. Repeat with gold, electrum, and bronze, possibly F-chromium or breaths in a necrosil spike. Alternatively, you can use an F-tin spike to tap pre-made stores (made with F-gold or F-Aluminum) to get all 4-6 of these from 1 spike. It's a way to turn any animal that can burn metals/tap metalminds into a spike factory without killing more than 1 metalborn. SoScadrians might be intrested, but medalians are better than hemalurgy to an extent. Of course, one can get all but 8 allomantic powers from medalians + hemalurgy if they don't interfere, the 4 limit holds, and they can make allomantic medalians, all of which are speculative. I explained it bad. Let me explain it better. But first, this to get an infinte amount of tapping ability, AKA eat everything (no calories/nutrients), or getting cold. Not getting hot, or getting nutrients without eating. Fill your metalmind as full as you want. Tap it incredibly slowly. It isn't inside your body. Burn aluminum. This empties the metalmind, same as leach while tapping. Of course, one can do this by jsut moving attribute from one metalmind to another constantly, but that takes a longer time, and more concentration.

A spike can steal the "human sences" granted by invested powers granted by hemalurgy. Need steelsight, but not steel or iron? Kill 1 guy for steel/iron, give it to another, have them burn, then kill them for the sight. Rinse and repeat. Aluminum can allow F-bendalloy to eat everything with just 2 bendalloyminds. Similarly, one can become as cold as one wants with A-aluminum and F-Bronze (or is it brass) can become as cold as they want.

So it is back to running away and awaiting dunning. Not handling them, but effective. Also, the bendalloy rates I have been using are regular bendalloy rates, not super-bendalloy that would drain at comparable rates. Iron/Steel or even pewter might be more investiture effective for running from some of the radiants, but it would be bad against windrunners and possibly skybreakers. The mistborn likely has vials, so they would mearly use X vials runnign away, and leave the rest, and the Dor didn't seem to leak from the jars, so the dunning would still happen. Isn't it great how in so many fictional situations, kiting or fleeing is the best option?

This explains it.

But things exist inside the SR. A point cannot contain anything. Actually, that's the questioner saying that people cannot go there. All Brandon says is it isn't a place. He has responded in ways that don't contradict the truth, but also don't dispell incorrect assumptions before. Also, AFAIK, that still doesn't explain it.

Trying to understand something with 0 dimenstions is incredibly dificult. I imagened it as in everything existing overlapping, in which case it would be fine, if spiritually/mentally touching the metalmind, the physical part of it that holds the investiture, were possible for feruchemistry. Ok. Then why do you say she has to maintain it in the cognitive?

Elantrian or Awakener. They have the easiest to make magitech, and if I share my breath, I might get children with breath, acculating more for my descendants to play around with.

It would likely require to have a station you grab some from. However, even if that isn't allowed, 10L should drain a decent amount of stormlight, considering there is nothing better for the mistborn to carry around. Savantism is not a typical thing, but we allowed savantism and squires for match 2. Match 1 was pretty easy: soulcast aluminum box wins, gravatation wins, maybe division wins, lightweaving wins if they get laysers, all win if they get ranged shardweapons, else looses. Storage still leaks, and if the windrunner doesn't use stormlight, then mistborn doesn't need to use Dor. Just have lunch until they breath in. Also, it isn't investiture intensive. Forgery is the only magic system in a novel AFAIK that uses less investiture than the metalic arts. K. None. Its used for lamps. And mistborn never used any improvised weapon AFAIK. Did anyone use an improvised weapon in the first trilogy? There are few wepons shown on screen, are only the weapons shown onscreen aloud? It doesn't, it hurts the unprotected squires. The plate cannot protect all of them at once, and the closer together they are (the faster the plate can move) the quicker multiple people get endangered and need plate. There is no way to protect all of them with plate, getting soaked is actually a better defence than plate. When were guns alowed? I thought we were still equal tech levels, just savantism and squires to offset them. K.

Perpendicularities peirce all three realms, and one can go from physical to cognitive, so why not one of them to spiritual? A person there would likely die. Also, I meant metalminds transported physically into the cognitive and atatched to your cognitive self, not the cognitive bits attached to your cognitive self. Does that excerpt contenue? As far as I can tell, it ends with the ropes turning to smoke, and has nothing to do with the boat and spheres.

Mundane technologies are usually allowed. Oil is a very common "improvised" weapon in fantasy tropes, as is a DoT liquid like acid or alchemist fire. I see oil as standard equipment, though acid would be specilized. Radiant could have it, along with metals, weapons, etc. It just that if it doesn't matter, it isn't brought up. Squires would have trouble soulcasting it away, and only 1 order has RL. More effecient healing just means more oil is needed, same with frictionless, since it will still light the ground. And the plate cannot protect them all, you can toss multiple before they hit, spren doesn't have time to move from one to another between collisions. Aluminum is better in a white room. But it cannot be used with a bendalloy bubble (it might pop it, but would definitely would get refracted). One could reach out of the buble and stick some aluminum into their mouth, nose, or what have you, but that is more difficult to pull off, and less likely to kill. Sure. Their wet, and have to use stormlight to stay warm . In reality, that would work pretty well. Back to outrunning them and waiting for them to dun. I though plasma was an ionized gas. Also, fluid dynamics apply to gasses as well.

I remember reading Feruchemist in relation to Ferring, I'll have to look back and see if I'm remembering incorrectly.

I keep reverting to acid, but lit oil is common and easy to get ahold of. Only 2 orders can really prevent this, the soulcasting orders, who can soulcast an aluminum box, and be done with us. Maybe. Anyone else want to voice their view on this? True. As above, oil is pletily common, and while less damaging, more likely for one to have have large enough quanitites. Right. It's fully inside until the wick is short enough, at which point it's fully outside, along with the explosion. And I don't necessarily mean directly damaging the the plate, but flingin them back can damage the plate, as can the debris from the explosion. The bigest question is wether the tongs would cause it to be inside, because if so, one might as well just use dinamite on a stick, and have the dinamite explode near them at bendalloy speeds. No, they don't. Metalic arts are incredibly low investiture. Burning bendalloy at a flare uses about as much investiture as a radiant leaks and uses passively, barily more if more. The moment a radiant uses a surge, they are behind on investiture. Also, they could age fast, and that could be an issue, but we have to assume it isn't, because death by old age is boring, likely a draw/false match, and potentially not even a thing.

How much would a therapist get paid to give Sazed Therapy? Lol.

I realise it is unclear, but I meant Wax's leaning.

You mean because of the capital F? I never noticed wether feruchemist was capitalized or not when referring to ferrings.

I know this, and ferrings existed before Rashek was born (but rare). I don't see how he was clearly referencing a full feruchemist, would you explain?

I thought she just looked into the cognitive to make sure it was there. Would you update me on how? (WoBs or scenes from books)

What do you mean? The closer they are, the less liquid arms they need. You aren't having them get inside the bubble like Wayne, but rather tossing a liquid through the edge of the bubble, because who cares about the refraction, it's a liquid that it going every which way anyway. For gasous investiture, but the liquid investiture didn't seem to leak, and even if it did, (or we are using gassous investiture,) the mistborn is using less to damage the squires than the squires and radiant use to heal. That is the question. I think one can, at least for the most common ways. No he doesn't, if he doesn't care about refraction, such as when using liquid arms. If you splash acid, oil, or another liquid on someone from a flask, a large portion is going to miss them. With the refraction, some that would miss will hit, and more that would hit will miss, and more area will get splattered. It will still do what you want it to do. Alternitively, hold a peice of dinamite with tongs such that the wick ends at the edge of the bubble, with the wich inside. As the wick burns, it is inside, but once the wick is gone, and it starts to explode, it happens in realtime, allowing you to get out of the blast. This is less likely to work than the acid or flaming oil, but if it works, it can actually do damage to plate. Even if it doesn't let you shape it so it's smaller than your abdomen, there is nothing preventing you from just not going where someone would be put into the bubble. Bendalloy prevents the use of the horseshoe trick (based on what we have said in this argument), and the horseshoe trick is faster than non-savanted bendalloy. However, bendalloy savants are still top 4 fastest people in the cosmere, along with steel/steel twinborn, coinshot halfborn and fullborn/steelrunner halfborn.

There is no space, so you would always be in contact with it. WoB said we've seen people go to the spiritual realm, but I think he RAFOed who. I personally think Aon Tia sends people to the spiritual, then pulls them back in the place specified. And yes, we would have to somehow anchor the metalmind to our cognitive self, but Jasna does that with a boat and filled spheres. It's definitely speculation. Thanks.

There are feruchemist - ferrings. I agree we will probably see another full feruchemist, but I think this annotation is likely referring to ferrings. I like the idea that being in the mists recharges them.