IlstrawberrySeed

There was a WoB that said Hemalurgic spikes cannot steal what is granted by a hemalurgic spike, but can steal what is granted by a hemalurgic spike. He then used the example of H-T stealing stealsight granted by H-A-S. I'll try to find it.

I don't agree with their statement either, but you said we know why the recreance happened. I wanted to know why you said that.

1. Mistborn are incredibly investiture effecient if they want to be. 2. I don't think so - Pewter seems to allow you to ignore pain and damage while enhance natural healing slightly. You might be able to heal like gold from physical wounds. 3. I belive they can, but it would expend an amount about equal to that in the shardpiece. An utter waste, considering they can just reform/resummon it. 4. Bendalloy would be beast. 5. Taking in peices were already mentioned, but it should use all the investiture. 6. Because it is unkeyed, it might allow alloys. I'd say go with no pure metal, as the magic of Shardmetals is from the metal, while the magic of Surgebinding and Allomancy is in the spiritweb. I'd say if they had it, they'd win easy, so lets regulate it to 2 seperate discussions if anyone thinks extra power Nalatium visions wouldn't cause the allomancer to win. 7. I agree. 8. Is savanting allowed? they win easy with pewter Savanting, Aluminum Savanting (Stop RL on them) and Bendalloy Savanting. 9. What tech level for each? If the radiant has a shardgun, they win hands down. That doesn't use investure, while pushing on it drains the mistborn faster than they can break the plate. If the mistborn has Era 2 mundane tech then the mistborn gets another advantage, but if the radiant gets fabrials &/or raysdium even if the mistborn gets scadrian magitech, they loose unless they can gold compound &/or steel compound. Also, a strong enough mistborn can push on airborn metals. This won't provide the lift necessary without F-I, but if medalians/hemalurgy are added, the mistborn is better at maneuverability, though slightly less effecient at slower speeds, and a lot worse at extended flight. Radiant wins if they fly away and mistborn has to chase them, they get fabrials & mistborn cannot compound, or they go to space. Agaisnt non-gravatation, the mistborn seems to win or stalemate pretty consistently. Abrasion might be able to do a similar tactic of sliding away, but without the 3d aspect the windrunner can use the horseshoe trick and be more investiture effecient except in very specific enviornment of a downhill slop that cannot be pushed on. A Bondsmith's powers have a range of touch, so even they might dare to loose, but we really don't know what's possible if they go to the CR or what enhanced copper or aluminum savanthood might do to other magics.

Because if you haddn't read RoW, I would have said there is more to muddy it. If you'd read RoW, I wanted to know why you said that, cause I don't know why.

The quote didn't say no invested abilities, it's said no people with magic. There is a difference. The aviar are not people, and have magic abilities. Unless I don't understand the terminology as well as I thought I did, the aviar have invested abilities. Please show me the definitions if I'm using them wrong, such that I might use them correctly. Also do note that I wasn't referencing solar systems, but the scientific definition of system. You were the person who told me matter and enregy are the same thing, (not just convertable) and extrapolated it to investiture, matter, and energy are the same thing. If we are talking about investiture in a system, an argument relying on alternative states is valid. As far as I understand it, Adonalsium or someone holding the dawnshards, created pre-shattering matter and energy from investiture. Could be totally wrong - Until I read CC-AU I thought that pre-shattering there was only 1 planet with sapient and sentient creatures. I felt incredibly stupid for the next 2.5 minutes. (At which point I was too absorbed in the story.) In one of my drafts I actually mentioned we agree they have innate investiture - I understand that. We disagree on wether there are/could be worlds that don't have innate investiture. I want to list a few things that I think we agree upon that I have been using, and could have been undermining the discussion if we don't. Planets/Solar Systems can have different amounts of "allotted" investiture (not in a shard) That is the case pre-shattering Investiture is allotted to things, but exists in the spiritual realm even when allotted. There are 3 states of the same thing - matter, energy, and investiture. Innate investiture is separate from your soul, and one that has a soul doesn't necessarily have innate investiture.

I personally believe that Hemalurgic Aluminum is charged before hand, but it doesn't really matter for the aluminum hemalurgic round. If one can use a hollow tip shot and still hit the bindpoint depth, then that might be what is needed. Also, do we know if Vin's earing was coated during the spiking of her sister or not? (Or other coating relevant WoBs?)

How far are you in the SA

What would you call aviar - They have the invested ability to grant things - usually which are invested abilities themself. And that comes from the parasites. It's lower level than that. Spren also grant invested attributes, if not invested abilities, see greatshells and luckspren, or parshendi. Every world is invested by Adanalsium (except Scadrial, etc, but no need to go there), but that doesn't mean they are uniform. To create matter one must invest. That doesn't mean the matter is invested - all investiture used could be converted to matter. The same thing can be said about energy and souls - A larger asteroid technically has more investiture than a smaller one. All investiture on a planet can be used for mundane function - matter, energy, and souls, and that wouldn't necessarily cause one to have innate investiture. I have read the WoBs many times. Invested in that WoB is refrencing thaking permanent residence in the location. She didn't do that, doesn't mean that people don't have Autonomous Innate investiture seperate from the Adanalstic Innate investiture related to the Ambient investiture from before the shattering. They have innate investiture - but worlds (could?) exist that don't. (Technically he never confirmed there were, only implied it, so there is no cannon yes or no on it, because it's all offscreen at the moment.)

FotS is not the lowest Investiture though. It was invested by Adanalsium, and then shards messed with that investiture, which I read as investing - not neccessarily adding investiture from another system, but from one subsyestem to another. Otherwise there would be no invested abilities. There is Adanalstic Investiture everywhere, but some places are just enough for the spiritweb - no extra for innate investiture.

Too big, Tapping sized, because if he fills until he has 4 strength (minimum), and he had 10 at the start, if he gains strenght, his body won't recognize it, it would go strait into the Pewtermind. So he will keep growing mussels as if he was 4 strenght, not 11, 20, 30, 40, etc. 5 years might not be enough. I agree it would improve, and I agree that's how it would work if storing a static rate, but one can also store a static amount or store to a static amount, and the kid is storing to a static amount - or at least that is how I understood it. Intresting. Didn't knwo about those, but I still think he could become a filling savant if such things exist - and I postulate they do. Fuerochemistry is basically 2 abilities, 1 to store and 1 to tap. All abilities have the ability to savant (I wonder if hightenings are really just Biochroma savants), and I believe it's a 2-ability power, unlike most powers. Now, it could be that since it doesn't really permeate your spiritweb as it flows out, it doesn't do anything, but I would expect it too.

By non-invested BS implied not extra invested - enough for things to exist like in our world, + cognitive and minimal souls. Nothing not required for life. I'll try to find the WoB, I read it in a thread yesterday. First of the Sun has/had an avatar investing the world like a shard. They have less investiture, hence the disparity. And it has Adalnostic innate, but that doesn't mean there aren't places that don't have Adalnostic innate. That second WoB is the one I was referencing, but the part you cut off. He says "I believe they all do" once, and twice that we just havent seen worlds like that yet. I read that as Brandon reading "All cosmere worlds" to be the ones we've seen, or at least the ones we've heard of, for his "I believe they all do."

Ah. I'll look into the TnT equivelent. What would you say is reasonabe, 1/2 the mass of a regular bullet in harmonium? I also meant more the 'Don't think that works' (Paraphrased) and less 'But this might' (Paraphrased) That's how I understood the argument, so thanks for clarifying. Might I ask what you mean by Intent effecting it? True. The not effected is for a fist sized or larger projectile - If all previous projectiles are bullet or coin sized, then decent chance Kal uses larger objects so Reverse Lashing doesn't mess up his. Why would Iron/Steel not let him orient? This is more curiosity, as I already believe it isn't a viable way of getting through plate. I like these posts more than a poll because you can legitimately figure out why others think they way they do. A poll encourages click and go, while this encourages discourse, and even thread takeover (like that one about nukes in which order is second best). I prettymuch ignore polls because they only convey oppinion.

First of the Sun is invested - we haven't seen a non-invested planet yet where people have no innate investiture.

Figured. True. Would you explain your reasoning? Figures. Maybe if it was a thug/bloodmaker round, but not near enough even then to crack without true bombardment that they would dodge. Unfortunate, as there is no other way to provide that with their tech level AFAIK. At least other than F-Brass, which isn't combat relevant. Assuming no savanthood (other than A-Steel), no benefit from A-electrum (except to play with his fortune and think faster), no magitech rounds, and no medalians, than the only way I can see him winning is if he can use alomantic grenades to his benifit, whether Cadmium, Chromium, Aluminum, Necrosil, or Durilium. In theory, a double cube that uses aluminum and ___ would have to be dodged, not Lashed, but it would be dificult to get it in range of Kal. However, if one can slip a cube into a Reverse lashing's target, to an object near him, then it might be able to catch him.

Adhesion, used physically, manifests the same in both orders, and Gravitation is almost the same in both orders and fused, but is stackable in all 3 cases. For Reverse lashings to be useful, they have to have greater gravitation than .7gs. We all agree that. I postulate that it's because it stacks like basic, your postulating it doesn't like Full Lashings, and it's strength is static. Either can be correct, or the strength could be based on amount of surface/mass infused, or by the stormlight, or based off of the object and stormlight only determines length of time. And I don't know if it really matters, because in any case he should be able to get a high enough gravity to pull a regular buller off track. I doubt it, but if a halfborn can push/pull on their metalminds without (as much) difficulty, that would provide a method of resistance, especially with durilium. Is there a WoB/scene confirming this or only about general metalminds? It doesn't need to function as a full bullet, only a core or as a projectile attracted to a reverse lashing. The main question is how small a primer projectile can be made with current technology, since we only see hand size cubes. A hand cannon could be used to launch a spherical one, but that would be noticeably different, and likely be unaffected by a Reverse Lashing targeting bullets, but a bullet could be inserted inside to make it attracted. Question, if Wax threw a bullet, and it was pulled by a Reverse Lashing, but he aimed it using Iron and Steel, then hit the pin when it's only a footish away from Kal, would the bullet make it out of orbit and hit? I could totally see windrunner rounds for mistborn actually being bullets with multiple casings. I wonder if a Trellium bullet passing through solid Harmonium would cause a reaction, because if so, he could coat a Trellium bullet in harmonium. When it impacts, even if just the Reverse lashing, should be enough to damage the plate into cracking after the second one.

What? Source please.

Thanks The wording's a little iffy, but we can roll with F-steel doesn't do anything for bullets for now. (Mussel speed shouldn't effect burn rate, but F-Steel does) True Why wouldn't one be able to? It's the same concept of stacking Regular lashings. In the battle for the tower he explodes with a bunch of light and pulls a bunch of arrows, but when doing it incognito fewer arrows are effected and less strongly - the Flash had large impact force for each arrow, while the bridge barely flinched. If Reverse lashings are a combo of a full lashing and a basic lashing, than why wouldn't it inherit the stackability of the basic lashing? I obviously was filling a tinmind with my sence of time, because I put .1 second for maybe a few inches. Don't know what I was thinking, as it would totally pull it off course like that if it applied for that long. But it wouldn't even apply that long, since the Ironpull starts before the lashing. I meant trick them into pulling a primer instead of not pulling the primer, not instead of the other bullet.

It doesn't have to be charged by him, and can be (theoretically) charged with durilium. Ah I don't have the books, can you describe the scene? (I believe you, just want to actually remember it) Where is that stated (I know it's true for Pewter) Do we know that? He can stack Reverse Lashings. I was counting "Landing" in reaching, considering the windrunner never wants to be off the ground except for Lashings. If they get near a solid object, and the tack - push method is what your using, you stop firing and switch until they no longer within danger of quickly Reverse Lashing your bullet. It may even be able to trick them into reverse lashing a primer bullet, which would make bubling them while slow much easier.

2. There is already an Avatar of Autonomy, and it is Jadeth, or so WoB imply. He will intercede more in the sequel. 3. Maybe, though it may be an advantage of large amounts of investiture in general, Elantrians are heavily invested enough that they may be Shard Metals - as Shard metals are material heavily invested enough to not be considered what it was before.

The windrunner has to be going 370 before getting trapped in the bubble to be out that fast. The time it takes to build up that momentum, considering the bubbles will be "refilled" in the direction your traveling, would be enough for Wax to empty out several chambers, especially if he uses a speed buble himself since aim doesn't matter. I don't remmebr the Whig, but They haven't made blood attractors either. The bullet doesn't need much charge - the bullet could be mostly ettmetal. And the size of the bullet matters less if it's tapping F-steel. I don't see how .1sec of .7g acceleration on a bullet will effect it by significant amounts. The pull itself would also help prevent rotation. Remember, it's not reactive to the lashign taking effect, it's reactive for the windrunner reaching to touch something.

But he only needs 2 primer cubes and 1 primer bullet, because he can retrieve one cube once it runs out with bendalloy. And would they be able to get out before their plate cracks or even breaks? Yes, but smaller. I don't think the small momentum provided by .1 seconds or less of a Reverse Lashing on the back end would do enough to effect a bullet's path. It'd be more efficient to just dodge, if I understand things correctly and he could dodge. I still don't see why this wouldn't work. If you take a thumbtack, insert it into a bulletshaped piece of cork, then soulcast the cork into aluminum, and file the thumbtack, the aluminum should contenue when the tack is pulled backward, and the casing won't even touch the thumbtack. Most of the force would be on the thumbtack. What I'm saying is I understand it's not allowed, and mentioned in a way akin to a Red Herring Fallacy with out actually using it as an argument. Of course. I'll probably still use it in other conversations, as I've been doing that for months, so just remind me. I always spell out Brass, Bronze, Bendalloy, Copper, Cadmium, and Chromium be cause abbreviations are more complicated than useful. The rest of the base metals can be 1-letter.

Very Well. True, but if the radiant is trapped inside of cadmium bubbles indefinitely, the amount of projectiles is the only question. Tapping the fuerochemical metal. I don't know if it could tap F-Pewter, but F-Steel, F-Gold, and F-Iron should all have drastic effects on damage to the plate. I don't see why it must be pulled off as it leaves the barrel, especially if it's being pushed on as it leaves. True, but an offhand mention of that is the same as offhandingly mentioning that a shardblade can be a shardgun, and Wax looses. But that isn't allowed either. It was tied in with the H-Aluminum. I forgot about that fabrial, but wax doesn't want to get close anyway.

Why would anti-breath gemstones cause them pain?

Bleeder also had axcess to the killed steelrunner's metalminds, so it still could have been lots of speed.

If a cadmium grenade can catch the windrunner, likely a new type of hazekiller round, then Wax could load a bunch of porjectiles into the buble to cause plate to crack, and can toss another cadmium grenade inside, and so on, grabing a grenade using bendalloy when it switches to the next one. A bullet enhanced by F-P, F-S, F-G, or F-I should be able to brake plate without the need for steelpushes, meaning it can be aluminum coated enoguh to not be RLed. And a regular bullet can have a backplate made to be Ironpulled off when the windrunner starts to infuse an object. If the gun is enhanced by F-G, much more gunpowder can be used. Aluminum Hemalurgy or A raysdium-gem bullets could be used for draining the radiant, and A-C and A-A Harmonium bullets can be used to disrupt the radiant as well. Fabrials aren't going to help the radiant near as much as Scadrian tech would help the windrunner. A F-G, F-S, F-Z, or F-N medalion would change the game, so I assume medalians aren't allowed.