IlstrawberrySeed

My evidence was wrong, but simply substituting the WoB would fix that without changing my overal point (Kel can't get allomancy if a kandra via a base metal, since only sazed knows). We know kandra blessings are simply 2 of the same basic (8 basic not base, edited previous posts to fix) metal that grants abilities.

Normally may not be the right term. However, the idea is that anyone can compound an unkeyed (?) metalmind. It might be possible for someone to blank their allomantic identity to access a keyed metalmind, but I doubt it. If you blank fuerochemical identity while filling a metalmind, then it doesn't matter that the identity of the allomancer isn't the same as the one that filled it. If Sazed filled aluminum and X, then Vin & co could have semi-compounded by burning the X.

That doesn't effect my point, but is good to think about. Do they need to have blanked identity when charging, or perhaps they need to spike a kandra with powers to give another kandra powers.

I believe the reason the inquisitor's couldn't get durilium mistings for spikes was because durilium wasn't known, but it could still be burned on it's own.

I don't mean when making the spike, I mean filling aluminum and another metalmind when spiked regularly. I agree with the idea of filling aluminum while charging a spike

Additionally, Kandra cannot get allomancy or fuerochemy from base metal hemalurgy, and we know Kel's spike is a basic metal (forgot which one), so if he is stapled to a mistwraith he probably wouldn't have powers. He might not be stapled to a mistraith, however.

I don't think Ati would have been directly powering hemalurgy the way Pres powered Vin, but he could have. We know that Ati was causing more/larger holes in peoples souls, which had an effect. It can also be overcome by blanking identity while filling the metalmind - this is my largest (albeit small) problem with the second and third E1 books. Wether aluminum can blank the spikes while filling is unknown, but I assume so.

If you control them (which may not be possible in E2, see MAG sup. AoL. May being the key word - not necessarily canon), couldn't you just command them to tell you?

I agree - the brunt of my argument is on 0th-2nd ideal, with a bit on 3rd. My first post mentions a 80% or 90% win rate for plate. Scientific method isn't statistics - a hypothesis has different rules than a null hypothesis. 1: I had other options to achieve the same effect. 2: That still goes against what I am asking. I am asking if they have a way (not necessarily copper) to prevent RL on themselves and either trace metal pushing or environmental constraints and concessions on the windrunners part, do you think my estimates are about right?

True, but I thought it only took a willing target, not them to do anything. You can swage any doubts and make them willing. Could easily be wrong though, I only recently learned it's end positive.

Inquisitors too. And Vin with the mists. When the truth is unknown, we must choose one, and test it. That is the scientific method. The only ways to test are theorywork, WoB, and reading. None of those are evidence in either way. All religions are trinary - True, false, or close enough. Nustul's Magic aura is the most popular DnD 5e example. We have the mechanics, but have to interpret them due to being unclear. Unless you ninja'd my edit, that isn't what I was asking. Wax will loose. I don't think a below average Halfborn would loose given the 2 things I've mentioned. You don't think that the 2 things work, but I don't know what you would think if they did, which is what I was asking.

I meant that it would prevent you from loosing long enough for you to cause everyone else to loose. It is a little bit of a stretch, and the least likely to work, but with the new challenger format it should be an easy button against several builds. As for that, the natural tone I thought the NT was the cause of the connection. The Anti-tone is close enough for one to invert investiture, but not turn stormlight into anti-voidlight, or even stormlight into voidlight. Something extra is needed for that. That something extra should be able to bypass the tone requirement. Good idea about the seperation of soul, durilum + emotional allomancy to supress all but willingness, and riot the willingness, as well as tapping connection, should allow you to force someone to sacrifice themselves dakhor style.

True, but is that an attribute of copper or chromium? Also true, but where we have no evidence either way, we just have to choose. Like religion and Nustul's Magic Aura. I am choosing this. Others can disagree, but until there is evidence in either direction or some logic I hadn't thought of, I don't see us agreeing on copper, ponly what happens in each scenario. If the Mistborn + skimmer doesn't have a way to stop from being reverse lashed, then they loose in the majority of fights, and it becomes all but impossible for them to beat someone with plate, same as if they don't have the trace material abilities or specific concessions on the windrunner's point. Do you agree with this, and with the reverse (If they do, what I said in previous posts)?

We haven't seen this tested at all - so few people can push on metals piercing/in the body. We have no info on how copper effect something that we've seen 3 times on screen. Also not sure what the second point is. Interesting. Without being able to push off of the all of the environment, or some specific environments or constraints, the windrunner would such an advantage.

I don't doubt the shardblades, but why do you say it wouldn't prevent reverse lashings the same way it prevents emotional allomancy? The targeting realm diffrence? I always assumed someone burning copper was harder to push/pull on than someone burning another metal, and this would be the same concept. I thought it was either, as Brandon had said any A-S/I could learn to see axi, so why not a lesser extent?

I think a mistborn with iron fuerochemistry could beat a 3rd ideal windrunner (if they are skilled enough to push off of trace metals, if not invested materials). The main reason a mistborn would loose to a gravitation user is the fact that pushing back on them counts as pushing on a braced item. However, mistborn that can compound weight should be able to fling gravitated metals around regularly. Now, I don't know that wax could do it, but if we take a below-average E1 mistborn with iron compounding and wax's skill in F-iron and E2 weaponry vs a windrunrunner, I have to say it is going to be a 10% O0, O1, O2, 30% O3, and 80% to O4. The windrunner can set up a no-fly zone by using lashings and reverse lashings very easily, but it wouldn't be as comprehensive as Kel's. Meanwhile, the mistborn can move in relation to the flying bits of material, and chromium can stop you from being full lashed against your will. Copper should protect against a reverse lashing from being started, but once it is on F-iron to manipulate momentum will make it difficult to take advantage of a reverse lashing. They would basically need to RL you to 2 objects to split you, without letting you touch either. To add insult to injury, necrobursting the reverse lashing that powers the no-fly drops it, and the one that pulls their projectiles back to them will have them be in a bull's eye. And that is if they don't use the big gun, or D-burn emotional allomancy. Once they have a shardblade your F-iron RL tricks don't matter much, only copper to prevent it. Using something akin to an aluminum wiffle ball with iron core or an Iron handled aluminum rolling pin should allow for dynamic projectiles that cannot be cut by the shardblade. The shrapnel from The Big Gun should take them out before it is needed though. You need an aluminum shield to prevent against shardguns or shardbows (real ones, not the fabrial) Shardplate is what this thread is about, and it's tough. If you use the big gun in succession, it might crack it enough that some shrapnel gets through. The problem is you either need aluminum shrapnel (to prevent healing), or to leech/necroburst the plate, likely multiple times. You might need to D-burn them, though. I wonder if it is possible to hurt someone by necrobursting the plate, but that isn't important in this scenario. The problem with this is the shardblade. A single nick can cause the next leeching to be 20* harder. A hammer has been suggested, but it isn't enough to deal with them before the blade takes you out. If you can manage to compound some armor it should be an easy mistborn win. Some complex armor with metalminds attached to metals that can be push/pulled along tracks or along arms/legs/chest/back should be enough to allow the hammer technique if you have enough or if it is also invested Iron/steel.

I'm glad, but surprised, that my build wasn't questioned this time. I do believe a boon could easily be used to win, but I agree none of the aforementioned boons could. I think it would be good for Frus to declare a forged or stolen win doesn't count, because I actually lean towards Forgery being an I win button, where you forge that the person who killed you didn't see you, then that the person who won tripped on their way over, or ran out of __. Boons that could cause an I-win button: (what do you all think of them) Possession: when you are killed, you possess the one that killed you. (bane is the same happens if you kill someone). This invokes cultivation of form. Power replication: a common power among other series that hasn't been seen in BS writing AFAIK, this means that you get to tap their metalminds, burn their metals, and use their stormlight. Cultivation of Powers. Suedo-immortality: You are impossible to kill, but you will die after X amount of time. More similar to cultivation of a plant, protecting the moderately strong parts of the bush while pruning it once it's too old and bark-y to produce much fruit. Identity and Connection manipulation: I used this on my first character, but didn't try to push the limits. With perfect pitch, you can convert part of an enemies investiture into anti-investiure, causing their soul to annihilate itself. This is the least likely to be given of the 4 listed so far, as it is more about being a cultivator than cultivated.

Let me repeat "True." If it is radioactive to "regular" elements, it simply means the investiture stored/allocated to such a shardmetal is released (similar to if it were burned). I also don't know that adding matter to a shardmetal would cause radioactivity, since a shardmetal is simple any material supercharged with investiture - so if you add enough matter, it should simply disperse the investiture returning the metal to it's original state. (This is why some believe shaod/pre-raod elantrians are made of the dor's shardmetal.) Adding matter should be difficult, considering alloys aren't enough to disperse it, so it might have to be atomically. The AoL era melting processes aren't nearly as hot as what we often use today. It isn't possible back then, but someone calculated based on the description that harmonium should be able to be meltd at sub-modern temperatures. I don't remember the thread that this was brought up in, though. It might also just leak investiture.

I cannot tell which part your responding to. Responded in spoilers for length because of 2 separate arguments. He would be a pewter filling savant by now, if those exist. (It might be analogous to being a tapping savant.) Also, not letting the mussel's grow could be dangerous, since the body would grow in relation to his physical/cognitive, not spiritual (I would think) meaning he could get fuerochemically sized mussels "naturally" (that would stagnate if he doesn't fill them). This could mean that he is incapacitated unless he fills or burns pewter. I would have this be a point in a later arc where he has done filling exercise for the purpose of growing his mussels cheaply (without expensive equipment).

True, but there are about 16 thousand possible shard metals. The chance that none of them are radioactive is slim based purely on metallic categorizations. And I meant a similar property of investiture -> energy because of it's already destructive nature like harmonium.

True, but a Radioactive shardmetal would have the investiture & enhancment properties like ettmetal to add on. Or perhaps it's shard metal fusion - though that seems like it wouldn't release the investiture.

I am not arguing that. He definitely didn't have enough gold. He wouldn't have been able to tap it if he did. What I'm arguing is that if he did and could, he should have been able to compound enough in the time he had. Why do you say this? I see no evidence for or against the length of the bubble being effected by things moving through the side, we simply don't have enough data. The way it is described as (almost?) solid and cracking makes it sound like it was forces that caused it to stop - not the natural ending of it if in a black-box scenario. Unless there is evidence I am unaware of either way, I do not think we will come to agree at this point in time because our main pieces of info are interpretations of a single (short) chapter.

The way it was described in the book made it seem like the bubble colapsed due to the movement of things through the edge of the buble, rather than the duration running out. I believe his bendalloy would have lasted for at least a second in real-time based on previous examples. (Tangent below) I don't think it was only the barrels, as Wax never pushed on something outside of a speed bubble (iIrc) and there was stuff going on with the lights, so photons were likely a stress as well. If there is any evidence against the bubble colapsing because of the strain of things passing through the side, please let me know (or if there is evidence for the burn-time being in-buble, rather than out-of-bubble burn time).

1: Where is confirmation on the parens? I tried arguing this point in another thread, but couldn't find proof. 2: You should be able to fill a metalmind you are actively burning, so the "small amount" of healing doesn't matter, only the amount of gold. 3: He had more than enough time to compund enough healing to survive evaporation, if he could manage to tap it. He spent about a minute in the time it takes the fireball to proceed about a centimeter. If we assume that the buble would last a full second on the outside without the stress caused by sending things in and out, that should last way more than an hour on the inside.

I believe so, thouhg there are almost certainly less important bind points that only work for 1-3 metals.