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  1. This is what made it click for me. You're right, you don't store allomantic power the way you store memories. When storing allomantic power, you don't stop being an allomancer, you just become weaker. This does make sense, you're right. It's funny that this actually makes allomantic medallions extremely powerful, since your power as an allomancer isn't consumed by flaring your metals. It would just be consumed over time. What piece of your innate investiture controls this is nebulous imo, but it's clearly what is actually happening. To me this asks even more questions about how feruchemical power works in nicrosil. In medallions, the feruchemical power is not consumed. But you've gone over this a few times by now of course, medallions have their own life force and identity which grants the weilder the ability. So beyond medallions, how does nicrosil work in feruchemy? Your explanation here confuses me, because as far as I know feruchemy is completely binary, no feruchemist is more powerful than another. I haven't ever heard this before, I don't know if there are wobs or something I missed about this but from what I know, this loss is very small. The loss is related to humans being a porous container of investiture, so when you tap and extreme amount of an attribute, you lose some of the investiture as the investiture flows out of you through osmosis to the environment. So maybe this is true, but since the loss is so small, being highly efficient shouldn't really change much. And that seems like a pretty weak feruchemical ability. So what does storing a feruchemical ability in nicrosil do? Feruchemy is also granted by connection to Preservation and Ruin, which would cause me to assume that you can't store all of your feruchemical ability in a nicrosilmind. But then what does storing any % of your feruchemical ability mean? When storing speed in steel, you become slow now to become faster later. In nicrosil, you store your feruchemical ability. So there's two options, you store it like copper, or like any other attribute. Storing feruchemical ability like any other attribute just seems odd to me. You cannot be a strong feruchemist, you are just a feruchemist. I'm curious to know what you believe here, and how you think this ought to work. Yes, my point was that every planet was made by investiture in the same way. Scadrial was directly created from Preservation and ruin's investiture, but other planets (like roshar) were created by adonalsium. But when the shattering occurred, the investiture became that of Honor and Cultivation's. So scadrial's connection to Preservation and Ruin shouldn't be any different than any other shardworld. I'll go ahead and say what I meant about TSM. Spoilers for all of TSM
  2. Except everything was made from investiture originally when adonalsium created the cosmere, and when adonalsium was shattered, all investiture was divided amongst the shards. Honestly idk what I was trying to say. I think I was trying to say there was some hypocrisy in the wording but there really wasn't. I know it gives feruechemy, it certainly has to. So I think my argument is hinging on a specific aspect of how this technology even works. I'm not saying that you would create a fullborn by making more Bands of mourning, but by giving them the innate ability to do it. Medallions are able to allow you to tap a metalmind without having the feruchemical ability. But can you take the ability out of the metalmind? Surely you can, or perhaps with the use of two nicrosilminds. Anyway that isn't the real problem, the real problem is in duplicating the power. Feruchemical ability is binary, you either have it or your don't. So what does compounding necrosil do when you have a feruchemical ability stored? If the answer is power duplication, than in principle, creating an infinite number of full feruchemists is simple. Allomantic power, on the other hand, is not binary. It controls your burn rate for metals. If you are correct, and you store the innate ability to burn metals, than compounding should increase the strength of the allomantic ability. That should absolutely let you create more allomancers. You almost certainly should be able to only pull off part of the power (or else storing an allomantic ability would be pretty useless) so getting all of your original power back, and giving the rest to someone else, would be easy given the knowledge they already have. The simple fact that they haven't done this tells me it can't be possible. Something in this chain of assumptions has to be impossible. All you would need is one misting of each type, a nicrosil compounder, and an aluminum ferring. My method requires feruchemical powers to be duplicatable with nicrosil compounding, or you need a full feruchemist rather than the aluminum ferring. But you also need 1 of those to make medallions in the first place, so it's definitely doable. Regardless, I want to pick out the assumptions that could be wrong that would make my method not work. If somehow you can't tap only part of a nicrosilmind with an allomantic ability, than this doesn't work. But that seems silly. I'm sure you'll have more objections, and I look forward to hearing them. If my method isn't making any sense I will draw a diagram when I get home to explain myself. I'll explain what my proposal is better then, I forgot all the proper words so it was hard to explain myself. Yes, I should have been more clear with what I mean by "allomantic ability". Clearly the true power is that you are able to burn metals and draw in investiture. I am proposing that once you have that investiture, using it is the easy part. The power of a steel misting is to burn steel. The investiture gained by burning steel allows you to steel push. Under my framework, if you were somehow able to give that investiture to someone else, regardless of if they are a misting, they would be able to steelpush. So a nicrosil twinborn could burn whatever metal they had allomantically, and store the investiture in the nicrosilmind. Then you could use that investiture later to have a massive burst of power, almost like duralumin you have set up before hand. The way this would work with stormlight is part of my reasoning for thinking it works like this at all. I argue that a knight radiant draws in stormlight, and then is able to use that held stormlight, converting it to a type aligned with a surge. I actually have a piece of evidence from TSM that I think shows this quite well, but I will pull that into an aside later since it messes with the flow. This would work with nicrosil by storing the investiture associated with a surge, ready to be used later. A medallion granting gravitation then would let you use the surge of gravitation, but wouldn't let you draw in stormlight. Once you ran out of the investiture in the nicrosilmind, you couldn't replenish it. The reason I think it absolutely has to work this way is by nature of how surgebinding powers are gained. Surgebinding is gained by bonds, bonds formed by connection. The idea of storing the ability to draw in stormlight shouldn't really be possible, it's a different type of power. For instance, an honorblade gives you the ability to surgebind. If you could hold an honorblade and store your ability at the same time, what would happen? Would you be able to create infinite surgebinding, constantly getting surgebinding back, or would you destroy the honorblade's ability to grant surgebinding in the first place? Neither option makes sense in my opinion. Allomancy is similar, you have a connection to Preservation which allows you to burn metals and collect investiture from him. The connection here is somewhat nebulous, I'll admit. But it seems almost an impossibility to me that storing the ability to use stormlight and surgebind seems like an impossibility. Extremely important caveat: I don't have a clear memory of Bands of mourning, if this fully happens in the scene, where Marasi has to swallow metal and only gains the ability to burn said metal, then yeah I'm fully wrong. Just 100% wrong. My framework relies on this not happening. I can't check the book right now but I'll do it when I get home. Welp I've been writing this for a day now, and I have since checked the book. I am definitely wrong. I am going to think about the consequences of this now.
  3. Oh you know I should have said that. Yeah I've read every cosmere book (besides whitesand, and I haven't gotten around to reading sositfoh despite having the arcanum) and I am well versed in theory. So now worries at all about spoilers. Can he really? I was under the impression that we learned in era 2 that he can only hear the thoughts of people with hemalurgic spikes, hence why people in wax's religion (forgot what it was called) wear spikes while they meditate. I especially remember in TLM when Wax became permanently spiked, Sazed promises not to listen to his thoughts without be asked first. I figured that would only matter if you actually had to be spiked for him to hear your thoughts. This is how I thought it worked, so I was confused when rereading WoA and I got to the part with Sazed and his metalminds. It's a shame to hear that that won't ever really be explained, even if it's completely inconsequential. Okay, so it was kind of like what I was thinking, but I didn't take into consideration that the investiture was separated from Ruin. I figured the thing that made the most amount of sense was it being locked in a cycle, but I thought that the pits of hathsin were directly connected to ruin's investiture, acting like a leak. So I figured that when the atium is used, it either must return to ruin or just get used up. It makes more sense then that the pits of hathsin weren't connected to ruin, but just to a large piece of Ruin. That certainly explains it for me. Follow up question then: Why did Kelsier "destroying" the pits of hathsin prevent it's use for travel to shadesmar? Or at least that's what I got out of Hoid's annoyance in secret history. Idk, it really doesn't seem to just be "they don't know that they can". To start with, Vin challenging the "rules" with copper isn't as simple as knowing that it is possible. It was always possible, you just needed to be sufficiently more powerful. And steelpushing stuff that isn't metal seems to be going this route as well. In BoM, for instance, Wax sees ironlines to axi just by holding the bands and being tremendously powerful. There wasn't a trick to it, it was just tremendous power. The well of ascension annotation is especially odd to me. We have been told since then that it is the spikes that grant vision in that way, not skill with allomancy. Kelsier has sight due to his spike, but isn't an allomancer in his body. He even directly points to the spike as what gives him this sight- hence why it doesn't require burning metals to maintain. I could certainly see an iron or steel savant learning to see the world this way, but being able to push on non-metals the way Wax does in BoM feels like it's on a different power level. (Now I'm thinking about some sort of daredevil style character who's a blind steel savant, using steelsight to see axi). Metal is special on a cosmere level, of course. And this is pretty obviously why it is the easiest to push. I think I'm more interested in what exactly it is that makes it so easily pushable. I think this is a discussion that I want to have, so I'll set up my theory in the general cosmere discussion forums, since it certainly has to do with the wider cosmere. However, what does Sanderson mean by this? Not everything is pushable or pullable, but it counts in allomancy? My understanding is that some things are metals, and others aren't. There's not a particular scientific reason as to where this dividing line is, but Sanderson has made one. Things that are metals can be pushed (besides aluminum) and things that aren't, "can't". Specifically, I'm pretty sure silver, lead, and some other non-allomantic metals are very definitely pushable. I'm very confused by what he means with this then. Your comment did remind me of something else. Metal glows in Scadrial's subastral. It clearly doesn't glow everywhere in shadesmar, we know that from Stormlight. So why does it glow in CR on Scadrial? I imagine the answer probably has something to do with how important metal is to the planet, causing it to manifest like that in cr, but I feel like that's too time dependent of an explanation. We know that there's nothing particularly special about Scadrian metal, it is of course just a key to power. So what is it about Scadrial that makes metal glow? Oh okay rereading the wob posted about how metal is a key to the power, it clicked for me. And then it clicked out when I thought about it again. Okay so they molecular structure of metals form a kind of "aon", which allows investiture to flow from preservation to the burner. The investiture is specified by this, so it is only used in a specific way. (as an aside, my defense of this also comes from my interpretation of how f-nicrosil works, which I guess is another thing I'm confused about. I'll pull this aside into more detail at the end of this post actually). Because the power is in the spiritual realm, there is no location dependence unlike with aons, so allomancy is possible anywhere in the cosmere. Initially, this clicked for me because as "aons", the power would be trying to use the metal as a conduit, which is what makes it glow in the cognitive realm. But then I remembered the whole metals not being location based thing again, and so I'm back to not being sure. I'm on your side here, it makes far more sense for preservation to not have "switched" how snapping works. We know that atium (or nalatium) was intended to be an alloy of electrum since well of ascension was written, so it makes sense to me that "seers" don't really exist. So my promised aside. F-nicrosil stores investiture. The few things we know about it are that it can store the ability to use investiture(which is itself investiture, just applied) and the investiture itself. For instance, holding the bands of mourning grants you all feruchemical and allomantic abilities. That is slightly misleading however, since it doesn't give you feruchemical abilities, it just had a large storage of unkeyed attributes. Except you have to have the feruchemical ability to tap a metalmind, so the bands must store the actual ability in nicrosil. But that would mean that you could both tap and fill the bands, and since they also give you all allomantic abilities, filling them back up would be trivial. So clearly the bands don't make you an allomancer and a feruchemist when you hold them. The one thing it absolutely has to do is make you a feruchemist. All other unsealed metalminds have to have a storage of the attribute as well as the ability to use it. If it didn't have nicrosil to give you that ability, it would just be unkeyed. So, I propose that it doesn't give you allomantic powers. Rather, the nicrosil is storing allomantic investiture. A couple of things follow from this. It must be impossible to store the ability to burn metals in a nicrosilmind, otherwise creating trueborn/compounders in general would be trivial. Secondly, the investiture involved in allomancy must be usable by anyone. So when an allomancer burns metals, they gain investiture with certain properties (I'm not sure what the proper term is for this. I'm talking about the differences that would be most obvious to a seeker) which give them allomantic abilities. That investiture is nearly immediately used, with the limiting factor being how quickly you can burn the metal. I would imagine that storing "the ability to use various surges of the Knights Radiant"(Coppermind) must be similar. Anyone has the ability to use the investiture, it's getting it that's the hard part. So the allomantic power in the bands is finite, although anyone with the requisite allomantic ability could fill it again. You can't just hold the bands and drink metals. Otherwise, allomantic and feruchemical ability would be very easy to mass produce. Which is clearly not the case.
  4. Recently I have been rereading the mistborn series. This prompted me to realize that there are a decent few things that I don't understand. For the most part this is all Era 1 stuff. Specifically 3 things. 1.) What makes ruin/harmony able to talk in someone's mind? I was under the impression that in order for ruin to talk/manipulate someone, they had to have a sufficiently damaged spiritweb. This could come from people who have had a truly rough go of it, or hemalurgic spikes. As far as I was aware, the spike had to be hemalurgically charged. But in WoA, Marsh uses Sazed's rings as weapons, pushing them into Sazed. This nearly kills him, but he hears a voice that reminds him that those rings are metal minds. I assumed this voice was ruin, since ruin is the only one who could actually do that. So, does it have to be a spike? Or is it really just anyone pierced by metal? 2.) The atium plan. This one I think is the most easily explainable, I just don't get it. The lord ruler's plan with the atium was to sequester a massive supply, effectively keeping a chunk of ruin's power away from him, slightly weakening him enough to level the playing field between him and preservation. But then, elend and his seers burned all of that atium, which enraged ruin because he couldn't have done it himself. This leads me to believe that the process of burning the atium actively converts the investiture into energy, which permanently weakens ruin. So, then, why even stockpile it? Why not just burn it all? The simple answer that makes the most sense to me is that by burning the atium, the power becomes "dispersed" and needs time to "coalesce". Which would make burning all that atium a significant postponing to ruin's plans, but burning it piecewise as it formed wouldn't be useful. 3.) I left this for last because it's the one I'm least confident that we even have an answer for. Why is metal the thing that is easiest to push and pull on? It's obviously not because if it's connection to allomancy. You can push and pull on all metals regardless of if they are allomantic. And it doesn't have anything to do with preservation, since metals on other planets can be pushed and pulled on just fine. If hard stop, only metal could be pushed on, then I would be comfortable calling it "because leras said so". But anything *can* be pushed, it's just metals that are the easiest. But of course, metals aren't just the easiest, they are the easiest by far. So there's a pretty big divide between metal and everything else. I have a theory on this that I think answers a lot of these questions, but it has enough holes that I'm not confident enough to say it is definitely true. It's pretty cosmere connected though, so it's probably a discussion worth having there instead of here.
  5. Well, no, when you die you become a cognitive shadow. You just aren't stable, and you are pulled into the beyond. I argue that a nahel bond with Kaladin is the thing that would prevent him from falling into the beyond and becoming stable. Eshonai hadn't even sworn one oath, and she still managed to hang on for a long time. Mistborn Secret History Spoilers: I think it's important to note that in these examples he's telling you what people in world would say. He's pretty explicitly not confirming or denying anything. But I do think that reading through the lines here, we aren't meant to believe that Tien is alive. Especially given what you say : It undermines his previous character arc and his relationship with his family. As much as I might want Kaladin to be happy, this is a reach.
  6. There shouldn't really be any "Tien communicating with Kaladin" if he's really dead. If he's really dead, he's in the beyond. There's nothing to talk to anymore. That's why I figure it has to be either Dalinar creating a vision out of Tien using Kaladin's memories, or Tien isn't really dead
  7. I've had this theory bouncing around in my mind for a while and I want to see other's thoughts on it. To start with, I want to say that this is mostly unfounded. I think there's only really one piece of textually evidence, and it's not particularly strong. So I'm not particularly attached to it. Anyway, the gist of the theory is that Tien isn't dead. My explanation of this has a few different pieces. Firstly, Kaladin and Tien were both invested at the time, Tien more so. We have no idea how far along Tien was as a radiant, but he could have been pretty decently far and no one would have known. Kaladin was most likely first ideal at the time, as we know Syl was around, and Syl was able to travel to the physical realm because of her and Kaladin's connection. Secondly, Kaladin and Tien were already heavily connected. This is true for a few obvious reasons, such as them being close brothers. They loved each other deeply, and their connection mattered significantly to each of them. Thirdly, both had a deep desire to protect the other. Kaladin is the more obvious of the pair, seeing as his desire to protect Tien is a major plot point. However I think Tien's desire to protect Kaladin was just as strong, in a different way. Tien obviously wasn't going to be able to physically protect Kal, he wanted to protect Kal in mind and soul. We are told that Tien worked hard to cheer Kal up, and he was extremely important for Kal during the weeping. I think that Tien knew that Kal had depression, and he chose to help him as much as he could. Putting it all together, here's what I think happened. Tien is killed on the battlefield. Being highly invested, he would have stuck around a significant amount in the cognitive realm. But unlike most people, I don't think Tien would be able to accept his death. I think his strong will to protect his brother would keep him from the beyond, as we know is possible (If you don't know that, read Mistborn: A Secret History). I think that as a cognitive shadow, he could have been able to latch onto his connection with Kal, causing him to Nahel bond. However, because of his lack of a solid connection to any realm, I think the Nahel bond may only have been enough to keep him in the cognitive realm. So his ability to communicate with Kaladin would be extremely difficult. The piece of textual evidence I have is Tien's appearance in RoW. I think that was actually Tien, and not a copy created by Dalinar from Kaladin's memory. I want to go over some of the biggest problems with this theory. The first is the thematic implications. Tien's death is extremely important for Kaladin's story and his growth. Having Tien turn out to not have died would be a pretty big reversal of that, and could cheapen the character growth. I don't have a defense here, it's just true. 2: Kaladin has been to the cognitive realm. He has physically interacted with Syl, someone definitely Nahel bonded to him. If my theory is true, Tien should have been there. My defense here would be that Tien has somewhat accepted his current role, and knows that Kaladin needs to grow in ways that Tien cannot help with. This defense feels very loose, so it's most certainly a significant hole. 3: Why doesn't Syl know? Shouldn't she be able to see that Kal is bonded to Tien, or at least that Tien is hanging out in the cognitive realm? My defense is that we don't know if Syl would be able to know, and if Syl would even tell Kal if that was the case. She might assume that he knows, or think it better to not bring up. I think there are a couple different options, but nothing is very solid. I think Occam's Razor here says that Tien is dead, and I'm wrong. That's certainly true, and I'm not holding my breath. I want it to be true, but I think there are plenty of interesting stories to be told with Tien's death, so I would in no way be disappointed. Anyway, what are your thoughts? Can you think of better defenses, and/or more issues? Maybe there's a WoB out there that says "oh yeah tien is 100% dead" in which case whoopsies. But this is something I have put a decent amount of thought into, so hearing thoughts of all kinds would be nice.
  8. Well we know for a fact that Syl was bonded to Kaladin during this moment, seeing as she talks about him fighting in the army. We also know that they would have been bonded the whole time Syl was in the physical realm, since she says she heard/felt Kaladin reaching out to her. I am personally of the belief that they have been bonded since Kaladin was a child, and it never managed to manifest properly because of Kaladin and Syl's unique situation. Hijacking this point to talk about something else quickly, I have seen a fair amount of discussion around when Kaladin said the first ideal, and I think that line of discussion is in the wrong direction. I obviously don't think a child would accidentally say the first ideal out loud and then forget that they did it. I don't think the ideals themselves are completely literal. The ideals are oaths, at least in most cases. But an oath to who? I think the obvious answer is to Honor, but I don't think that's true. I think Honor is the mediator, and you are making the oath with yourself. In this way, it's not important that you literally say the words, it's important that you believe and accept them. Saying them out loud is generally going to be the nail in the coffin for this, as hearing yourself say it is a good way to believe it. But just living that ideal should be sufficient enough. So I don't think Kaladin ever said the first ideal, I think he simply lived it. He was taught to live the first ideal, and so he had achieved it. It wasn't until he started to give up on it during his time as a slave that Syl started to really try and shake him out of it. To get back on track, I don't think that moment was supposed to indicate that he felt a magical disgust towards deadblades. I don't think that has been very supported in the text, radiants don't seem to have any major problems until they touch the blades. Whether or not he could have felt something through his connection to Syl isn't very important in my opinion. He sees shardblades as disgusting the way victims of gun violence may see guns as disgusting. Hell, mild Mistborn Era 2 spoilers: I think it's meant to represent a more grounded thing that people in real life could very well experience. Not something magical in origin
  9. Ah Iron Feruchemy, my old nemesis. I think I've been on the path to discovering the issue with different reference frames before, but I had to stop thinking about it to save my sanity. Good work on what you've found though. I think a major part of our issue is that we have no physical basis to draw on for changing your mass. It's not possible to just "change" your mass in the real world, so we really can't even be sure that our equations are correct. Take for instance, m1v1 = m2v2. This comes from considering that you are "ejecting" mass off of an object, or perhaps two objects coming together and exchanging mass. The full equation is more like m1v1 + m2v2 = m1'v1'+m2'v2' . We don't have a good basis for saying that Iron feruchemy follows this example. We can imagine taking our mass and attaching it/converting it to investiture, which is sort of similar to something like black body radiation, or perhaps any kind of decay. If we were to assume that the investiture actually has momentum, meaning that it can exert force (which makes sense, seeing as it clearly can do that) then really we shouldn't need to follow momentum conservation at all. We do, so we can follow that the investiture helps solve for our issues. Except that, of course, you lose investiture when storing and gain it when tapping. That's what makes this solution not work for energy conservation. Tapping mass doesn't give you energy, you actually lose more kinetic energy from slowing down than you gain from having an increased mass. Or no, I am wrong. In the case of momentum it actually works. If an iron feruchemist were to store mass, an outside observer not moving with the planet would expect the iron feruchemist to go shooting up into space. If the investiture took some of the momentum in every direction, then the feruchemist could observe no change to their velocity. When tapping mass, they could be given momentum back in those directions, fixing our issues again. And as momentum is a linear transformation, momentum would actually be conserved, unlike energy. The other issue with the two reference frames problem is that we are assuming that Galilean relativity even holds. The process of exchanging mass with the spiritual realm might not actually be upheld by Galilean relativity. I think if we assume that the investiture can provide a force on the iron feruchemist to deal with this problem, then galilean relativity is actually fine. All of the forces work themselves out. There is a different problem however. If momentum is truly conserved, then we would expect the iron feruchemist to feel no force when storing or tapping mass (They might still in the other directions in order to conserve their velocity compared to the system, but in the direction of their velocity this argument holds). There is no change to their momentum, so they should feel no force. But there is a change in velocity, and thus an acceleration. But you cannot have an acceleration without a force, it's simply not possible. This is at the core of the problem with iron feruchemy, the idea that momentum does not change, yet there is a change in velocity. The idea of mass changing makes no physical sense, and so I'm not sure if we have a model capable of making sense of it.
  10. Yes, and as an unreliable narrator I don't think we can take her word for it that yelig-nar had all 10 surges, especially as they didn't know that voidbringers only had 9 surges. What if it's the other way around? What if the reason that Bondsmiths can use Spiritual Adhesion is because of Tension, and all normal uses of Adhesion are physical? Or what if its because of Bondsmith spren? What if it's the bond with big spren that gives this ability? In that case neither Windrunners, nor Fused, and maybe even Yelig-Nar won't have that. This is supported by the fact that the suppression effect of the Tower would mess up with Bondsmith vision (but that's likely because suppression is messing with bonds): I don't think there's a clear delineation between "physical" and "spiritual" adhesion, unless that delineation is object to object vs living thing to living thing. That could certainly be explained by differing power levels. And that effect perfectly fits with having more squires, which is not so subtle than whatever Wax has. They have a lot of squires which are very visible. You're really arguing with clear WoBs that confirms for once what is the resonance of Windrunners. Reverse Lashing is a power, not effect. It is mixing of two powers. Yes it's recognisable by A-bronze I don't really think having extra squires is really something that is especially noticeable, especially in the timeframe of khriss's research. Kaladin has had the most amount of time to accumulate squires, and so he has the most. There's not enough statistical evidence for Khriss to clearly label it. Even pre-recreance, having extra squires might not be noticeable. It's hard to make an assessment though, since we don't know a lot about other orders and how many squires they get. If windrunners have like twice the number of squires than any other order, then yeah maybe that's noticeable. And I don't mean to argue with you about whether or not it's the resonance power. The wobs clearly indicate that it is, I cannot deny that. I simply dislike it, and am making that known. Old man yelling at cloud. Anyway, I still wouldn't call reverse lashing a "power". Control over a surge is a power. Burning steel is a power. Reverse lashing is an effect of using gravitation and adhesion, not something extra. They think about it as a separate power, but I don't think it could be described like that. I think it fits the definition of resonance quite well, being beyond just the simple use of both powers, but something more. Thanks for the confirmation on whether the investiture has different tones. I swear I've read that wob before too. Do we have evidence of whether or not it's keyed? Like if a windrunner puts a full lashing into an object, they could later come back and take the stormlight back. Could another windrunner take the stormlight instead? Same sort of deal for lightweavings. I imagine the answer is that it's definitely keyed, which is very interesting. I wonder if you could store your identity in an unsealed metalmind, and if that would allow them to cancel lashings of your making (pre identity storage of course). Certainly not useful, but interesting in how objects invested by surgebinders may in some way act like metalminds. Yes, and I fully respect that. I was meaning that the relative power jump there is very meaningful and large, and it seems like by 4th ideal we are already hitting close to the ceiling of what is possible efficiency wise. I would be a bit disappointed if the 5th ideal causes no meaningful changes. Not necessarily in power, but in ability. That ability doesn't need to be in fighting capability, it could certainly be more metaphysical. I will say that the text indicates that what's happening to syl is not normal. So I wouldn't expect that the 5th ideal brings the spren fully into the physical realm or whatever, at least not normally. Regardless, I'm sure it will be interesting, and journey before destination after all.
  11. RoW ch 111: Shards have some power and influence over their invested art, not full power, but enough to change it a little and limit it. Odium would be able to do that as well if he could grant Adhesion to Fused. It's the same like Preservation changing the rules of Allomancy to swap 2 base metals with Atium and Malatium - Shards didn't create their invested arts, those came from interactions between Shards and the planet, but they can influence it a little. I'm not so sure if somebody only with Adhesion would be able to manipulate connections like Bondsmiths. Bondsmiths need a massive god spren and have also the surge of Tension as well. That's certainly fair. I wasn't completely sure how much ishar's "bondsmith unchained" was just due to no oaths, my memory of ROW is the most shaky. I still don't really know what someone with plain old adhesion without most of the abilities of a bondsmith would be any good for. I suppose we just won't know without more evidence of what bondsmiths are really even capable of then. They're biased: While Raboniel is definitely biased, and we shouldn't take her words as gospel, the wob clearly indicates something fundamentally different about adhesion than the other surges. It doesn't confirm anything specific, but the general opinion of the fused is clearly meaningful here. And I feel like my point still stands, she clearly has some extra knowledge about adhesion that differentiates is besides just "odium doesn't allow it". That bias might certainly be informing her overall conclusion, but I think the general point still stands. Curiously, it does not give a number. So I'm either way on this one. It feels a bit contradictory for the fused to reject adhesion as a surge, while accepting that an unmade regularly grants it. The text was written by humans, it's likely counting all 10 Surges - which doesn't mean Yelig-Nar has access to spiritual Adhesion as well - Amaram didn't use it at all The text was written by humans, but it is based on research done by others. These books are no strangers to unreliable narrators, and I wouldn't put it past humans to not even consider the idea of nine surges for the voidbringers. I definitely don't think Yelig-Nar could possibly have access to physical adhesion but not spiritual adhesion, not without a lot of fenagling from odium. The reason windrunners "only" have access to physical adhesion is due to the resonance with the surge of gravitation, affecting the way they can use both of the powers. Yelig-Nar wouldn't have that limitation, as it has access to tension, and the resonances would all cancel out. I truly don't think there is any meaningful difference between spiritual and physical adhesion, only a difference in how adhesion is used. Physical adhesion is still Connecting two objects together, just in a more physical manner. The ideas and intent of gravitation takes over a little. It's not as simple as Gravitation+Adhesion=Reverse Lashing or something like that. It's more subtle, more focused on a person rather than just powers. What is a resonance by definition? "the quality or state of being resonant. : a reinforcement of sound (as a musical tone) in a vibrating body or system caused by waves from another body vibrating at nearly the same rate." Reverse Lashing doesn't fit that definition - it's just another power, that has nothing to do with a body. But when a Windrunner is "hit" by a tone of Gravitation and tone of Adhesion, he vibrates with both of those tones, combining them into a single tone (tones, rhythms, vibrations - not powers). His body, his spirit, resonates with a new tone that creates some new effects, new sound. The new tone isn't the same as the tone of Gravitation or Adhesion, it's something new, created by a combination of those two tones. It's like a Windrunner is a tuning fork, and both Adhesion and Gravitation are also vibrating tuning forks, which creates an interference pattern, and a Windrunner is tuned to that pattern, resonating with it. Tbf I don't really know what I'm writing here anymore, but I imagine it working somewhat like that. Radiant is resonating with a new tone, which creates some effect on him and others close to him, rather than just giving him a new power. That's the resonance that we're talking about. Resonance which is the effect, not power. But reverse lashing is born between 2 powers merging together, which isn't the resonance we're talking about. Different orders have a bit different use of their powers, because their powers work together in a different way. We need Brandon to start writing about this to clear the confusion. That quote by Khriss is specifically in reference to twinborn, and actually implies that resonances on Roshar are more blunt and simple. She specifically says "The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar". Implying that the resonance effect on Roshar is far less subtle than Wax's ability to accelerate and decelerate in the air, or perhaps the resonance is even more subtle than that. You are very correct to point out that we have almost no proper examples of resonances, and that definitely makes it harder to talk about. "It's not as simple as Gravitation+Adhesion=Reverse Lashing or something like that. It's more subtle, more focused on a person rather than just powers." I think that the reverse lashing is a lot more subtle than you are making it out to be. Gravitation gives you the basic lashing, and Adhesion gives you the full lashing. Put those together, and you don't get the reverse lashing. You still get something interesting, like perhaps lashing a rock towards a group of enemies with a full lashing applied. Anyone the rock hits would be stuck to it like strong glue, pulled along with the rock. That would be really cool and useful, but it is clearly different than the reverse lashing. The reverse lashing is a usage of both gravitation and adhesion that fundamentally changes the effect of both surges. I think it's wrong to think about the reverse lashing as a separate power, it should be thought of as a mixing of two powers. I did want to talk about your idea of the tones of adhesion and gravitation mixing together to make said resonance. Firstly, I wonder if the kinetic investiture of different surges actually has different tones, I could see it either way. If they do, I think you are correct, and I've even come up with a justification for extra squires being a resonance, rather just an effect of adhesion. The intent of gravitation could be mixing with that passive adhesion, causing people to be "attracted" to him, strengthening their already existing connections. This would allow for more squires, and even potentially stronger squires. I still do think that given that you don't need the surge of adhesion or gravitation to have squires, it's a bit strange that this would be the prominent windrunner resonance. That seems to be the case though, so I'll just have to accept that. Seeing the connection lines was likely only possible because of Honor's death and loosening of bonds he placed upon Surgebinding. It wasn't something that Bondsmiths of the past were capable of (probably). RoW ch 66: Yeah, I can accept that. Again, ROW is the book I have the least memories of for the specifics. I just can't get past the beginning Shallan chapters on reread. I'm such a hater, it's a shame. I don't think this disproves that basic lashing at a distance is impossible, just certainly not possible before the weakening of the restrictions. Which definitely stabs this theory in the heart, it's not "the thing" that you get for reaching 5th ideal. Journey before destination... It's not about their powers at the end, it's about how they will get there. Kaladin beating his depression, Shallan forgiving herself and accepting truths about her past, Szeth bringing justice to those who deserve it, Dalinar changing himself from the person he used to be to become a honorable leader Roshar needs. The final oath will for sure do something more than make them "better". Spren would be pulled closely to PR, experiencing life and emotions like humans are (as evident by Syl and Kal's 4th Oath). There will be more to the final Oath than simply Radiant getting better. Not really, Kal's second oath didn't make him able to use Gravitation, he was able to do it before that, he just didn't know. Shallan soulcasted before using illuminations, yet she was later unable to soulcast. Lift didn't really change with her Oaths, she was Awesome from the beginning. Only Skybreakers and Dustbringers have limited access to their Surge of Division, no one else has such limits. However with every Oath they're getting more efficient with their use of Stormlight, and their powers become more intuitive to them. Shardblades and Shardplates are granted to them too, yes, but that's a physical manifestation of their spren, not their power. Of course, and I don't mean to say that the 5th ideal is all about reaching it and seeing what happens. But I still argue that every oath (for kaladin, at least) has come with a substantial jump in power. The second oath didn't give him the ability to surgebind, but it did significantly improve it, as well as his healing ability. Kaladin had been on the first oath for over 5 years, and he barely noticed any sort of healing, despite the constant stormlight everywhere on roshar(The obvious example here is being strung up in the storm, which still took him a couple weeks to recover from. Post second ideal he probably could have recovered in a day, given the amount of stormlight he had access to. With the amount he carries around now, even at second ideal he probably would have been fine in hours, if not minutes.). It was only after the second ideal that the effect became as incredible as healing stabs in seconds. The effects of stronger nahel bonds are certainly what gives the flashy, obvious changes of the third and fourth ideal, but the fourth ideal did also come with the ability to fully resist the suppression fabrial, setting him far higher in power scaling than the fused. I would at least expect something of similar magnitude. You are correct in saying that the abilities could be less in the "mystical" sense, and more in the mental or metaphysical sense. I don't think the 5th ideal would be "unlocking" some hidden ability, rather that "basic lashing at a distance" could be a accessed with a greater capacity. But still, that certainty wouldn't be the intended effect as you have proven. SHALLAN ALREDY DID THAT IN OB! I will happily sit on my fence and swing my feet on this one. I think that it's very rational and they should be able to do it. I have read many bits of evidence from both sides of the argument as to whether she has done it before. I refuse to form an opinion. I did say though: So I'm not doubting you. I simply refuse to pick a side. Yes, they underuse it. And that's the problem. They don't learn to use it, don't explore Adhesion, don't try new things with it. I doubt that with 5th Oath something new with their Surges will be unlocked to them, it's just by this time they will have so much experience with their Surges that they will just figure out new things that they can do with them, which they didn't think about earlier because they didn’t have enough practice. Whether I am correct or not, this is certainly true. If basic lashing at a distance is possible, it would be more in the vein of figuring out new ways to use their ability. Whether it's possible or not, this was a good discussion, thank you!
  12. Yeah, that's a totally reasonable interpretation. I just went on a rabbit hole earlier trying to figure out if he really referred to it as the windrunner resonance, and never bothered to just click on the wob frustration linked lol
  13. I just gave one example, but essentially I still think that adhesion is far too powerful for odium to consider giving to any of his slaves fused. If it truly allows you to manipulate connection, there's a ton you can do. I also don't necessarily think that odium could have bound the surge. I think the thing bounding adhesion has always been the oaths, because I don't think honor and cultivation have control over adhesion the way they do with the other surges. This gets into the nature of surges, but I truly think adhesion is just manipulating connection, and is very different from the other surges. The fused certainly seem to think of it as not being a true surge, and I think that goes beyond just cope that odium doesn't allow it. Besides, I think that binding adhesion to make it safe would make it generally useless. He would have to risk his fused potentially finding a loophole and screwing him over. Also, Yelig-Nar is said to have all surges by this quote: Curiously, it does not give a number. So I'm either way on this one. It feels a bit contradictory for the fused to reject adhesion as a surge, while accepting that an unmade regularly grants it. So I always see the resonance given as "an increased number of squires" but the wob: Gives it as "strength of squires". Is this clarified somewhere? Because to me that sounds like he means that the squires are more able to use their abilities.(I read the wob posted y frustration earlier, I see why it's generally referred to as an increase to number of squires. Still seems to be missing the key detail in that the squires themselves are more powerful) Anyway, I really don't like that as the resonance ability. I accept it as true, but it just doesn't make sense. How does increased strength/number of squires come about by a combination of adhesion and gravitation? It just seems far more likely that the ability would just come from a natural use of adhesion rather than a usage of both surges. I recognize that now I'm fighting with Sanderson himself, but I just really don't like that. For me, reverse lashing seems much more in line with the definition of a resonance. It's not just a full lashing + a basic lashing, it's creating a gravitational connection field around an object. Yet it is still a clear use of both abilities, manifesting itself as something different. I also don't mean to say that the resonance will literally get more powerful, obviously it is already quite powerful. More that the power might manifest itself differently, possibly with an expansion of what Windrunners can naturally do with adhesion. I'm imagining it as seeing connection lines pointing towards objects close to you, and connecting yourself to those objects in order to deliver a lashing. This wouldn't be reverse lashing at a distance, but basic lashing at a distance. I'm not willing to claim that this definitely will happen, and I certainly don't have my hopes going for it. I think that radiants just getting "better" at 5th ideal is anticlimactic. Every step we have seen so far is a large boost in power and ability, so to just have a moderate boost in power for the final and most difficult oath just feels wrong to me. Not to say that this is the only possible option, I just thought of it and figured it could be possible. It does feel very windrunner specific, but I think there could be nuance that we just can't see yet. Maybe lightweavers get the "soulcast lightweavings" ability that everyone has talked about so much, although I'd also be willing to believe they can just do that. With the exploration of the reverse lashing in rhythm of war, it seems like we will get more in that direction. I think windrunners definitely see adhesion as weaker than gravitation, and using surges together is certainly bound to make them more powerful. That's the whole reason the radiants are so much more powerful in the first place
  14. I mean, besides the fact that we already have 2 examples that go against this. Skybreakers don't get division until third ideal, and obviously lightweavers have their own weirdness. With how much more individual the oaths become as they advance, why shouldn't the last be completely individual. Besides, why can't the extra ability at 5th ideal for all radiants be an increase to their resonance abilities? I feel like that makes plenty of sense. We also know that high level abilities require specific command, which implies new magical ability, not something physical like shardblades or plate.
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