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Could Be Fire

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  1. That's a really good point! SfSinFoH (which is like the worst cosmere acronym lol) is relatively speaking right after the Evil exists. Silence's grandparents are said to be even the first people at all the discover the Forests of Hell so we're talking a two-threee generations at most. We know the Canticle group said they fled post-Evil running from infighting, not just fleeing Evil and on the scale of the Cosmere a hundred years isn't a long time. Maybe post-SfSinFOH other groups figure out how to start to control the Shades like Silence does which sparks a new magitech revolution, inspiring the Night Brigade to go try to re-take homeland with their new abilities and causing the infighting which results in the OG Zellion leading his new cult away. But I do think it's a reinvention or rediscovery of how to specifically deal with FoH shades because Nazh is from pre-evil Homeland and knows about Shades. What are the specific lines/WoB on Homeland not having Shades? Checking my copy of Arcanum the only relevant line is see is that the people refer to the Forests as "where the shadows of the Dead make their home" which doesn't necessarily mean they only exist there and could just be about how they're rampant there. I do agree that Homeland probably didn't have three rules/free-roaming/FoH Shades but I think that they must of had some form of Cognitive Shadows. It is clear that any Therondite born after Ambition's death has a special soul that is more easily invested upon death, so something should have been happening to their souls even on Homeland pre-Evil. Like Nomand first thinks they must have left Threondy before Ambition died for the planet to not be overrun with Shades. And it makes Nazh's attitude toward Shades make sense. We've already seen lots of different forms of Shades (Threondite Cognitive Shadows) so far so a new species for the Homeland pre-evil isn't impossible: 1. The classic FoH Shades which are white in the daylight, follow the three simple rules, do the no eyes/green eyes/red eyes shift upon level of focus on the physical realm, and appear to have no memories. They seem to be formed specifically by being killed by another classic FoH Shades in an infection-style spread. 2. Silence's grandmom, follows the simple rules like a FoH Shade and was implied to have formed by a Shade death, but seems to have some remnant of individual memory. She also has a more individual form, which Silence attributes to her being a more recent shade. Silence's grandmother seems to be very willful so just could be the result of a very strong Intent while dying, maybe all FoH shades could be like that with a strong enough person. 3. The Chorus or Canticale Shades. Only seen with red eyes despite no blood being shed, which is different from FoH Shades. Have a collective but not individual memory. If not turned into Sunhearts, any Threondite descendent who dies on Canticle will form some form of a Shade. Canticle Shades don't free roam and are drawn into the Chorus [Zeal says "sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary." in Sunlit Man] in a process that seems suspiciously similar to the Father Machine in Yumi. But the Chorus says if enough Shades form, they will overrun the planet so maybe the Reliquary's draw has a limit. Can also generate metal objects a la Spren if given instructions, which is not seen in any other Shade type so far and seems to surprise Nomad who has seen both Night Brigade and Therondy Shades. 4. Night Brigade Shades. Glowing red eyes like Canticale shades but free-roaming like FoH shades. Also much more individualistic than any other Shades seen, with their forms having "the uniforms they died in". Can obey verbal (and some people's non-verbal) instructions. 5. Whatever Shades Nazh grew up with pre-Evil, which seem to be a respected part of the culture (unlike FoH Shades) but are only formed through specific rituals (unlike Canitcale Shades). These might be the same as Night Brigade-style Shades since no information distinguishes them yet. Nazh also uses the term shadows not Shades. 6. "Deepest Ones": Bigger/"monstrous". Exist on FoH where even Silence fears them above all. Possibly also exist on post-Evil Homeland since the Night Brigade book is supposed to feature them. On instinct and name, I got similar vibes to Thunderclasts so maybe formed out of very old Shades or groups of Shades but overall a big mystery. We still don't know what exactly causes the difference in formation other than FoH shades seem to "trump" other kinds ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If I had to completely throw a more complete theory at the wall it would be that on Homeland pre-Evil most Threondite shades were drawn into Reliquaries/Chorsuses/Some kind of containment with a few being turned into more Kelsier-like cognitive shadows through specific rites/rituals to form Night Brigade style Shades. Maybe some of the Reliquary system is still working because nobody in the Forests is worried about forming Shades through non-Shade death but their invested Shadows post-death have to be going somewhere. Maybe, whatever way the Homeland ppl had of controlling Shade formation either broke or was lost (possibly deliberately) as part of the "Evil" which is why the refugees living in the Forests don't have any sort of tame Shades/Shadows. There's also probably something with the red eyes/green eyes and how Red = Corrupted Investiture, maybe Threodite shadows formed on Homeland were uncorrupted (green-eyed only) before the Evil and were less aggressive? If they could produce objects like the Chorus it could also explain where Zellion's group got their spaceship from. It's also very interesting that the more "controlled' shades (Night Brigade/Chorus) we see all have red eyes.
  2. The Shades on Canticle are actually really really weird. Dead people turning into Shades isn't a Forest of Hell thing, it's a Theorndite thing. Beyond that, Silence says that Shades only form when the cause of death is Shade. Silence even kills all those men without turning them into Shades. I assumed the Forests of Hell were overrun because that was where the first Shade appeared during the Odium/Ambition/Mercy battle and it was a zombie apocalypse sort of situation. So why did the first refugees on Canticle turn into Shades? Presumably, they didn't bring a Shade on their spaceship that they allowed to kill them haha. Also, The Chorus is very explicit that if the Theorndites there don't give themselves to the Sun in death they will rise as Shades. But then we see people die during the events of Sunlit Man without Shades forming which directly contradicts that so it's just all weird. Despite the whole, how did we even get Shades on Canticle thing, I think that the whole cultural view of the people of Union to the Shades is really interesting because while it doesn't match Silence's attitude toward Shades it does match the very sparse hints we've had of Nazh's (who timeline-wise kinda has to be from pre-Evil Homeland) view on Shades/Cognative Shadows. Specifically, Nazh says in Secret History “One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!…It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions.” [Secret History]. This whole, respected part of society/cultural institution vibes gels with what we see of the Chorus. If Homeland had some form of controlled Shades in a way like the Choruses it would explain things like Nazh's views on Shades. It would help explain how the refugees were able to corral the first Shades into the Chorus and where the idea to get them to magically produce items came from. It could even explain where the OG Zellion cult on Theorndy got their spaceship from which goes to address the subtopic here. The differences between Shades on Canticale and Shades in the Forest of Hell also imply that something external impacts how Shades behave/form. So maybe Shades in Homeland acted differently? You could even springboard there to thinking about how the "Evil" might be related to a change that external factor that changed how Shades acted a la the Reod but this is already a huge ball of tinfoil so I'll stop here.
  3. Thanks so much, these are all really good catches!! If you are okay with it, I’ll edit the main timeline post to make the corrections and add in the extra evidence you found. I’ll make sure it’s all credited, I just figured it would be nice to have that one post be as correct as possible. For the Ambition stuff, it’s clear from the WOB you found that Ambition is splintered after Devotion/Dominion is splintered but I’m still not super sure where to put the Threnody fight. The phrasing to me suggests to me that Odium wasn’t able to do anything with Ambition (including the Threnody fight) until after all the stuff on Sel. What do you think? That Nalthis WoB is very interesting. It makes complete sense with the hereditary magic too, I totally should have thought of that. This means I have to get rid of my speculating about Endowement’s arrival being later than. The Odium settlement WoB is helpful, there’s so much in-universe hearsay about that time period that it’s hard to make calls based on what’s “canon” now. It’s nice to get it confirmed. The whole pact thing is still very confusing to me. That WoB you found implies that it wasn’t that you couldn't have multi-shard planets but just that Shards had to respect each other’s territory. Honestly, it makes me think that the issue with Devotion/Dominion wasn’t that they were together but that they somehow encroached on another Shard’s (Odium’s) territory??? Like it’s pretty clear most of the Vessels think Aona/Skai did something wrong, but I don’t understand what they did that Honor/Cultivation didn’t. Any thoughts? You’ve convinced me on the Iriali arrival, esp. because there’s a big time gap between Exodus and the Silver Kingdoms that they could pop up in, I’ll move it after the Oathpact founding. You’re right about the math, I’ll update the post-Aharietiam dates to reflect a 5000-year gap instead and fix it up to 341 years between era 1 and era 2. For the Ghostbloods, I’ll plug them in after the Catacendre. I am thinking I should add in some of rough Dawnshard locations we have.
  4. It's not just the Iriali who pop up in TLM, but you are right about them, that's why I added Scadrial as the Irali's 5th spot on the Long Tail. Wayne finds Chouta in the slums of Bilming which suggests Hezradzians have made their way over. Melaan also makes her way across the Shadesmar to a bunch of "lost" people with "strange red hair" which I saw as the Horneaters. I called TLM specifically as being post KWT because it's the only one with like textual canon evidence but you def could be right about all of Era 2. I know there are some WoBs about it, but Sanderson is always super cagey about his timeline WoB being official canon. Canonic, in-text timing with Era 2 and Stormlight Gap is tricky. Era 2 itself spans ~8ish years (with 1 year between AoL and SoS, 6 months between SoS and BoM, and six years btwn BoM and AoL). Also, Melaan sees the Horneater people/refugees 18 months after the end of TLM (so like 10 years after Era 2 starts) but Harmony knew enough about there to know he had to send her at the very start of TLM. The last WoB about the Stormlight Gap I saw is that it is 10-15 years? So it's def possible the 10-year span of Era 2 will match perfectly with the Stormlight Gap and when we pick up with the Horneaters in Stormlight 6 it will be shortly after Melaan joined them. 10 vs 15 years makes a big difference when we have characters like Gavinor and Oroden so it'll be interesting to see what it ends up actually being.
  5. Overall timeline with a focus on planetary-level events, books, and the origins of immortals/world hoppers of cosmere-level relevance. I know there are some really cool spreadsheets out there but I thought a text-based list would more easily accept the “loosey-goosey” nature of some of the time points we have. Some years we have are exactly, but I rounded to the nears 500 for a broad overview. Also, the actual textual canon dates only really range from the Oathpact up to the events of Alloy of Law. To translate this to Shattering-based years I used an older WoB that said that Prelude of Stormlight Archive is roughly 6000 years post-shattering, and Sanderson admits that he’s not super certain of that number in that WoB. So the Shattering-Date years may be off but the relative relationships should be right (esp. between anything on Roshar and Scadrial). My main goals were to get a sense of scale, to figure out what events were happening roughly concurrently on different planets, and to try to nail down the best I could the ages/origins of the different immortals/world hoppers that we see. Based on the way secret projects are going I will def have to make major updates in July and December but that’s a problem for the future. Interesting things I noticed while putting this together: - The heralds and the fused are hella old, twice as closer to the shattering as they are to modern Roshar. - Timing Threnody is a nightmare. I just want to know if Nazh was born before or after Silence???? - Vashar and the OG Mistborn crew are roughly the same age if Warbreaker happened just before Stormlight Archive. - The events of Reod (and the other events of the Sel books) are happening roughly around the same time as the Lord Ruler’s Ascension —> Maybe King Irelon and Rashek coordinated on their evil empire with plantations schemes - Most planets (Sel, Nalthis, and Roshar) are implied to have a more general cosmere knowledge earlier in their history that was lost from a massive event (The Reod, Manywar, and Recreance respectively). Probably a Doylist choice on Sanderson’s part since the characters in the earlier books need to not be too cosmere aware - When Brandon has to choose a time point he seems to default to 300 years - Someone should check back in with Brandon about the Shattering relationship to the Mistborn/Stormlight events. We only have one WoB from like a decade ago that I could find. ~YEAR -3,000 to -2,000 Roshar was created by Adolusium YEAR ZERO Shattering Origins: Hoid, Frost, all of the OG 16 Vessels Dawnshards present on Yolen Used as part of the Shattering, and everything else involved (the 16, Hoid, and Ado) were all present implying they were there as well. SHORTLY AFTER YEAR ZERO ~Devotion/Dominion invest in Sel~ ~??~ Honor/Cultivation Invest in Roshar ~??~ More WOBs about the Shard Pact/Agreement imply that the main rule was that they would respect each other's territory and that sharing the planet was okay if both shards agreed. Therefore Ruin/Preservation, Devotion/Dominion, and Honor/Cultivation could have immediately paired off. ~??~ Scadrial Created ~??~ EARLIEST ~???~ Nalthis Created ~???~ EARLIEST Scadrial was made entirely by Ruin/Preservation per Arcanum. Nalthian humans were Shard created per WOB (why their magic is also vaguely hereditary), and in RoW Vashar says that Nalthis is too you to have fossils (which on Earth take ~10,000 years to form) suggesting the planet itself was also created wholesale. ~Devotion/Dominion are Splintered by Odium, Autonomy Involved~ All implied to happen fairly shortly after the Shattering. Bravadin says Aona/Skai violated the pact from “the very beginning” suggesting it happens very early. What exactly they did to violate the pact is unclear. Wasn't immediate thought as according to Khriss Arcanum's notes Devotion/Dominion had to time get a reputation as relatively hands-off on their planet and to influence language development on Sel, but all occurs in Selish prehistory. ~Ambition is attacked by Odium in the Threnody System, Mercy Present~ ~Ambition is Splintered~ Per WOB, Ambition was at the top of Odium's hit list but he was only able to find them after everything with Devotion/Dominion. NOT SO SHORTLY AFTER YEAR ZERO ~???~ Founding of the Ire ~???~ As per WOB one of the oldest cosmere organizations. Could be founded anytime after Elantrians are first created, which is anytime after Devotion/Dominion are shattered. Brandon is very cagey about how old they are but the evidence (physical age of the members seen despite being semi-immortal Elantrians, lake in Sel possibly named after one of the leaders, the sheer depth of presence across the cosmere) suggest they are very, very old. ~??~ Silverlight founded ~??~ Like Ire, one of the oldest institutions in the cosmere. Could have been founded anytime from pre-Shattering up to sometime after White Sand (as Khriss is the founder of one of the universities). Currently roughly placed around the Ashynite era since it’s the only other time we see large-scale colonization across planets/planes in the cosmere but ¯\_(:/)_/¯. Might postdate the Ashyln exodus though? In order to explain why the Ashylnites went to Roshar instead of Silverlight, which as a cosmere-aware human city would presumably be more open to a bunch of human refugees??? But that’s heavy speculation. ~??~ Events on Therondy ~??~ EARLIEST The possible earliest time point based on the fact that the situation on Threnody was caused by Ambition’s fight with Odium, is unlikely based on Sanderson's comments. ~YEAR 3,500 ~?~ Odium arrives in Ashyn ~?~ Odium influences the Ashyn humans but does not fully settle or invest in the planet (WoB), implying he was not there long before the exodus. ~?~ Dawnshard(s) present on Ashyn ~?~ Involved in the destruction of the planet that lead to the exodus. May have arrived before or after Odium. Exodus from Ashyn Odium settles in Roshar Origins: Heralds Odium asks for permission from Honor/Cultivation to settle on Roshar (WoB). Follows the humans and was instrumental in coming along with them but was forced to come by them. First Desolation and Oathpact Founded on Roshar Canonically comments from multiple sources (Herald and Fused) in Stormlight put the first Desolation around 7000 years prior to Stormlight Archive era Roshar. Within one lifetime of the Exodus, as the Heralds were born on Ashyln and are adults at the founding of the Oathpact. Probably around 20-40 years post-Exodus as Rabionial is too young to remember their arrival but is an adult with a daughter at the First Desolation. Around 30 years would also match Shalash’s apparent age and her being born either right before or right after the exodus. ~?~ Iriali Arrive on Roshar (4th World) ~?~ WOB is that the Iriali arrived separately from the Ashynites. Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms so they predate the Recreance. The exact timing with the Ashynite arrival is unclear, could be before/during/after. ~YEAR 6,000 Breaking of the Oathpact on Roshar Canonically set 5000 years (4500 Rosharan years) before Stormlight Archive modern era. Approximately 6000 years post-shattering per an older WOB. **Roshar decline in general cosmere awareness starts with loss of the Heraldic influence, but really hits later at the Recreance. ~YEAR 8,500 ~??~ Scadrial Created ~??~ LATEST Unclear how long Scadrial existed before LRs ascension. The Well refills every millennium so even if Ruin was trapped immediately after forming the world and LR was the first person to ascend then Scadrial predates his ascension by at minimum 1024 years. Very possible that Lord Ruler is not the first person to ascend. Kriss’s phrasing in Arcanum (“periodically through Scadrial’s history, a man or woman gained access to vast amounts of power” and “despite these repeated cataclysms”) suggests this to me. Also, Ruin says a thousand years is not a long time to wait to Vin in HoA which would be more understandable if he had been waiting for multiple 1,000-year cycles before that instead of just one. ~Year 9,000 ~?~ CHANGE Dawnshard present on Roshar ~?~ LATEST Moved through Cultivations perpendicularity to Anima before the Recreance. Earliest time point is hard to say, only that it is post-Cultivation's arrival. If one of the Dawnshard's involved in Ashyln's destruction it's unknown if it was moved elsewhere between Ashyln in Roshar. If not involved in Ashyln, could have been moving to Roshar prior to human colonization. Day of Recreance on Roshar Canonically based on in-universe comments in the Stormlight Archive, happened around 2,000 years before the Rosharan modern era. **Development of the cultures we know on Roshar (Vorinism, Shin Isolationism, etc.) with the loss of the unifying power of the KR ~??~ WHITE SAND ~??~ Origins: Khriss Technically could happen anytime between Devotion/Dominion Splintering (Since Khriss wasn’t able to visit Sel before it) and the Catacendre on Mistborn (the first time we see Khriss off-world). Very confusing currently about the timing with Elantris. Some comments (From Peter) suggest it may take place post-Elantris but WOB is that White Sand is one of the “very earliest”. Tenetivly placed after the Recreance as Khriss’s arcanum notes in RoW about surge binding seem to suggest she doesn’t have any information from the earlier KRs. ~??~ SHADOWS FOR SILENCE IN THE FORESTS OF HELL ~??~ Origins: Nazh There are two major sets of events we know about on Threnody. - Forescouts explore Forests of Hell —> Evil Rises —> Exodus from Homeland —> Events of Shadows for Silence - Nazh is born and becomes a world-hopper Technically could be as early as right after Ambition and Odium’s fight but Sanderson said at one point that Shadows for Silence is in the “[Paraphrased]In the latter half of things, but before the Stormlight Archive.” so it’s here instead. The temporal relationship between Nazh and Silence is pretty unclear. Nazh says becoming a cognitive shadow is an “important rite…with requirements and traditions” and has a gun that can literally fire Shades. This is very distinct from everything we see about Threnody from Silence which suggests he is from a different culture. My best guess is a couple of centuries after her. Since the Shadows for Silence sequel is supposed to cover a group trying to retake the Homeland and act some kind of lead-in for a later Silverlight book it’s possible that Threnodites get a better handle on the Shade/Evil situation post-Silence leading to whatever culture Nazh is from. Very speculative but ¯\_(:/)_/¯ ~???~ Founding of the Ire ~???~ LATEST Per WOB they Ire weathered the Reod off Sel so the organization itself must pre-date it. ~?~ The Reod on Sel ~?~ 10 years pre-Elantris. **General loss of cosmere-awareness in Central Sel (location of one of the two perpendicularities) with loss of Elantrians ~?~ ELANTRIS and EMPEROR’s SOUL ~?~ EARLIEST Origins: Galladon and Mai WOB that Elantris is somewhere around a couple hundred or maybe a little over a thousand years per Mistborn (“It's not thousands”). Could have happened concurrently or sometime shortly after the LR’s Ascension, the timeline is unclear. WOB that Emperor’s Soul happens shortly after Elantris ~YEAR 9,500 Lord Ruler Ascends, end of Classical-Era Scadrial Origins: Tensoon (~9,500), Melaan (~9,700), Ulaam (unknown before 10,000) Canonically 1024 years before Mistborn Era 1 so ~1300 years before Stormlight Archive and Mistborn Era 2. Therefore a little over ~2000 after the breaking of the Oathpact and several hundred years after the Recreance. ~??~ ELANTRIS/EMPEROR’s SOUL ~??~ LATEST If “it’s not thousands” means hundreds instead of between one to two thousand years ~???~ Nalthis Created ~???~ LATEST Civilization existed on other Nalthian landmasses before the Return of Vo ~?~ The Return of Vo and Discovery of Awakening on Nalthis ~?~ Canonically 300-400 years before the Manywar, and therefore about 600 years before the events of Warbreaker. ~???~ Ire Fortress Founded in Scandrial Subastral ~???~ Origins: Riina????? Latest timepoint, as they are well-established there as of Secret History. As with all Ire stuff timing is very unclear and likely much earlier. Riina's age is hard to say with Elantrian aging, time dilation, and other stuff. Riino became Elantrian during the Hoed and looked very old at year 10,000 in Stormlight Archive. All the Elantrians in the Ire group at year 10,000 in the Scandrial look ancient according to Kelsier, including Riina, but that may be lack of Dor related. Riina instead looks middle-aged much further in the timeline than that. ~YEAR 10,500 Manywar on Nalthis Origins: Vashar, Nightblood 300 years pre-Warbringer. Maybe slightly before or after Mistborn Era 1 depending on the length of gap between Warbreaker and the events of Stormlight. MISTBORN (FIRST ERA) Origins: Kelsier, Marsh, Demoux, Sazed, etc. Hard placed at about 300 years before Era 2. ~??~ First transfer of a Shard to a new Vessel (not one of the OG 16) ~??~ Preservation from Leras —> (Kel) —> Vin and Preservation/Ruin from Vin/Ati —> Sazed. All previous known Shards either have the same vessel up to this point or were shattered with their vessel’s death. Repeated by Taravangian around 300 years later when he takes Odium from Rayse. Major implications for the cosmere past this point, very unclear how much was known about the concept earlier. ~?~ Ghostbloods Founded ~?~ Assuming Kelsier isn't lying to Marasi, he founded the Ghostbloods so it must happen sometime after he is killed. ~YEAR 11,000 WARBEAKER Origin: Vivenna WOB is that Warbreaker is between Era 1 and Era 2 Mistborn. Vivenna appears to be around 30 in Stormight Archive, so Warbreak is at least a decade before Stormlight Archive. Considering Vivenna’s returned descent and heightening her aging may not be the timing exactly so maybe a couple of decades earlier. STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE (1-5) Canonically 4500 years after the Breaking of the Oathpact as per the framing of Stormlight Archive, and 7000 years after the Oathpact founded Origins: Mraize? Whoever else becomes immortal/world-hopper in the next six books? MISTBORN (SECOND ERA) 341 years after Mistborn Era 1. The Lost Metal clearly set after Stormlight 5 based on textual events and WoB is that Era 2 is set in the gap between Stormlight 5 and 6. ~??~ Iriali Arrive on Scadrial (5th?? World) ~??~ Very speculative based on some comments about “golden-haired fairy people” in Mistborn Era 2 STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE (6-10) Based on Sanderson's comments 10-15 years after Stormlight 5, and following Mistborn Era 2. SOMETIME AFTER YEAR 10,500 Cosmere-wide Space Age Sometime after Mistborn Era two and before Sixth of the Dusk. SIXTH OF THE DUSK Post-space age as First of the Sun is actively being colonized/courted by people implied to have originated from Scadrial (and possibly Roshar). Per WoB occurs very late in the cosmere timeline.
  6. This makes me think of the insane tinfoil I've been percolating in my brain that Kel (and Marsh) were at one point part of one of Preservation's's ideas to deal with his inevitable death and Ruin's release. We know from various WOBs on Shards that the ones with reasonably good future sight (like Preservation) tend to come with some Batman-level gambits and scatter out seeds of plans to see what sticks to the wall. Just look at Cultivation or Endowment. Obviously, the Vin and Sazed plan was the one that succeeded but that doesn't mean Leras didn't have backups in the works. Basically, I think at one point Preservation was seeing if Kelsier could being set up to be the new vessel for Ruin, with Marsh to take up Preservation. There's no real hard evidence for this but there are a lot of weird (un)lucky things that happen to both brothers surrounding their powers. The whole circumstances under which Kel becomes a Mistborn are very sketchy. Like he snaps super late in a weird way (with Preservation directly connecting to him). It almost makes me think he didn't have Mistborn genes before the mist came to him in the pits. Which would make sense if he was to be Ruin's vessel without the Preservation connection innate to Mistborn contaminating him. Even after being made Mistborn, we know he's deeply connected to Ruin per Secret History. Which is kinda suspicious in of itself. As for Marsh, he becomes Inquisitor almost suspiciously fast. Like, yes, he's a really good candidate on paper but there's no way his lies wouldn't be caught with a thorough background check, which you'd think they would do before making him one of the most powerful people in the empire. If Marsh was another possible Preservation vessel, it would be logical for Ruin to use his influence to get him spiked ASAP. Just like how Ruin enacted a plan to spike the Vin, the canon proto-vessel for Preservation, as soon as he could. Finally, a more meta level, I think it's a good plan? Like it kinda just makes sense. As you guys say in the quotes, Kelsier is basically the perfect vessel for Ruin (assuming you don't want to destroy the world). His whole thing seems to be using chaos (Ruin) for the good of Scadrial. As for Marsh, his determination and general attitude is very similar to Vin's (the ideal Preservation vessel). And beyond being excellent candidates individual, they actually could function as a pair with those two shards. Their whole lives have been basically forced cooperation despite being drastically different. Like if I had to pick two characters who would have any chance of succeeding to have a functional Scadrial as Ruin and Preservation it would be them.
  7. I think the Hallandren/Idris jungle area is just super super remote. There's some comments about trade with other kingdoms so my vibe was more Sel/Scandrial (there's other civilizations in the world that our protags just don't really care about b/c they're far away) than Theorndy (spooky mystery lost civilizations). Possibly also enforced stagnation? Last time they had an explosion of research it lead to the Manywar and everyone's favorite super nuke equivalent Nightblood. The Idrian govt at least is canonically? And we don't don't really see any "cosmere researchers" as we know existed pre-Manywar The first Returned was also one of the colonists. The Returned are dependent on Awakening, not the reverse, so Endowment could have existed before. It's interesting, both Nalthis and Roshar seem to be more cosmere-aware in their past than their narrative present. It would really interesting to know how the Manywar lines up with the Desolations.
  8. In the final epilogue of Lost Metal, Steris asks Marsh how he's able to walk around without drawing attention. He says emotional allomancy but Wax explicitly calls out that as weird and that there's something else going on. What do you guys think it could be? I thought of few options but it's an interesting magical question with cool implications. It also might provide a clue to what spikes Marsh has, which ppl have been trying to work out for years (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) The simple answer is that it is emotional allomancy, especially since it's the only possible ability for being unnoticed that we know for certain that Marsh has. Wax doesn't think it's this, but Wax doesn't know emotional allomancy to same level that he understands steel. Wax comments that Marsh's gun stunt is even more impressive than it looks in in a deeply subtle mechanistic way that is only clear if you really know the metals. Maybe Marsh is able to be subtle enough to sooth specifically people's curiosity toward him and nothing else? Or some other soothing/rioting trick on the level of splitting steel lines to push on the same object at multiple points. However, this sort of contradicts what we see in Alloy of Law. Marsh's "don't notice me power" is clearly active at that point, Marasi notes that he's being ignored by the Constables even though she can see him. But his use of emotional allomancy is very textually clearly heavy-handed, and Marash explicitly says that he struggles to be subtle and doesn't have the talent Breeze does Marsh could also just be lying about his ability. Emotional allomancy is definitely something that works better if people think you're bad at it. That reads to me as more of a Kell move than a Marsh one, but it's possible. He's moving around very quickly with either F-Steel (storing speed) or A-Cadmium ( speed bubble like Wayne). Bleeder shows that steelrunners can run fast enough to be almost invisible, the gusts of wind and force of movement would be noticeable, but it would hide the fact that it's Ironeyes who is running around. Also makes sense for Ruin to give Marsh an F-Steel spike, it's a useful power on it's own and compounding comes automatically since inquisitors already have A-Steel. However, speed doesn't match what Marasi see's, with the constable's just ignoring him. A-Cadmium is probably a no, since even if Ruin as the shard knew it existed, the Final Empire didn't have the tech level to mine/produce it. F-Duralumin (storing connection) is a wild idea, but it seems like it might work for making some unnoticeable/unremarkable. It is one of two spiritual metals the Final Empire had the tech to produce, but, per the hemalurgy chart, you'd need a Cadmium spike to steal it. Which has the same "Ruin is unable to find cadmium issue" that speed bubbles have. However, if Ruin was able to magic up or find an ancient stash or produce a small amount of one of the unknown metals like Cadmium, it would make the most sense to use it in a Spike. Also compounding is built in like with F-Steel since we know Marsh has A-Duralumin. Something with an unsealed metalmind? Marsh wasn't running around unnoticed pre-Catacendre. He hasn't been adding spikes/powers after Ruin left but that doesn't mean he isn't making use of the Southerener's tech, especially since we know others of the OG squad had a part in developing it. Maybe a Duralumin medallion instead of Spike? If this is the answer Wax commenting on it may be a hint to some of the abilities we'll see from the Ghostbloods/Kelsier moving forward in Stormlight Archive and Era 3.
  9. I'm not sure? It's Marasi who refers to it as his "treatment" Kell and Sazed talk about Atium compounding explicitly. I think the simplest answer is that Sazed and Co. are just trying to keep hemalurgic compounding under wraps as much as possible? The Arcanum reveals that post-Ruin hemalurgists can't compound anymore, and mentions that figure out how to do make it work again would be incredibly dangerous. So Sazed ais trying to keep people from looking into the whole concept, which means avoiding talking about how Marsh does it. Also keeping the details of how Marsh is alive keeps him safe? You don't want a repeat of ripping off his Atium metalminds like what happened to the LR. Of course that whole conversation between Sazed and Kell is a minefield of misdirection and secrets, so it's possible that it ended up being something else. I'm not sure what it would be though? Maybe giving Marsh Lerasium, if you believe that Sazed is lying about repeating Wax's results? Not sure how that would help though.
  10. Yeah the truth of southern culture is clearly a purposeful mystery. Sorta like Shinovar in SA. I leaned toward taboo because the firemother/firefather terminology seems very reverent of the position, but I guess it could be more the child of Omelas sort of reverence.
  11. I'd be more worried about the spread of unsealed metal minds. Way easier to convince society is okay than hemalurgy. Any time W&W hammered in how terrible it was for Wayne to store health, all I was thinking was seeing some poor person getting paid to fill an unsealed mind. Gold is just the most obvious metal too, mental/physical speed, strength, breath, determination, and fortune are all things that are ripe for exploitation if you could "convince" someone desperate to fill them for you. We know medallions can be filled by even non-ferrings so anyone poor is a target. It fits with the democratization (or I guess capitalization lol) of magic that's been hinted at as a theme for Era 3. It is interesting that the only medallions we've seen from the South so far (Warmth, Weight, Connection) are some of the least "harmful" to store up. Weight is entirely neutral or even useful to store, and Warmth seems easy as long as the person has access to heat. Connection is a bit iffy, but isn't obviously harmful like storing Health and is really more an unknown than anything. Wonder if they have some sort of taboo against the more exploitive ones?
  12. Easiest answer is that Sanderson explicitly said that Kell is the kind person who runs schemes that attract bad actors, but he's good at maintaining order/civility in ppl under his direct control. So if he was on Roshar he could probably maniuplate Iylatil and Mraize into behaving, but he can't so they're back on their crem dung. Another answer based on older WOBs is that Kell didn't start the Ghostbloods and so the Roshar operatives we see are more associated with whatever the OG organization was about. Would help explain how they're so established in Silverlight and Roshar when Kell can't have been operating offworld that long (I guess up to 300 years, but that would have been very quick to get off the ground even for him). And also why Kell says that the first tenant is Scadrial nationalism which doesn't make sense for a world-hopper organization. It would also thematically match with the way the Kell co-opted and took over the existing Skaa rebellion to fuel his own goals. Have to take with a grain of salt b/c this is all Thaidakar reveals so it might be worded in a way because Sanderson is trying to hide the surprise but he does say that Kell is only a of the Ghostbloods not the leader. Also one of the first connections between him and them is a WOB saying that Kell had to join a Rosharan society he would join the Ghostbloods and "be in charge of them within a year".
  13. I think this is a really good point. Especially looking at the interview with Khriss in the endnote. The version of hemalurgy the Marsh is made of doesn't really exist anymore. Kell and Spook's experiments probably uncovered a bunch about the modern rules of hemalurgy but Marsh is grandfathered in and canonically has some special abilities that aren't possible to replicate anymore.
  14. Skybreaker-ghostblood cooperation is also really interesting in the context of the the sixth of dusk sequel fragment that we have.
  15. More than a year of percolating later I'm more and more convinced of Moash redemption. It might be a "redemption in death" Vader/Snape style (sort of like Elhokar I guess lol?) but honestly, I can really see it being a full-blown Dalinar style dragging himself from the gates of hell to become a better person arc. I know killing Teft is really really bad, but he didn't just killing Teft for the lulz or revenge or even hatred of Teft but as a desperate attempt to make Kaladin commit suicide. Which, lol, does sound even worse, but death was the only way Moash can think of to keep Kaladin safe from Odium. Look back at Interlude 4 It's honestly kind of impressive that Moash is able to do this. Moash's POV in RoW really hammers in just how under Odium's control he is now, but he's still able to hold enough ofh himself together here to manipulate Odium into a plan that is (in his mind) the only way he has to keep Kaladin out of Odium's clutches. This is even a repeatable thing. There's also later in Chap 105. Same idea, Odium wants someone alive, Moash does what he can to kill them. Like yes murder bad but if Moash was truly completely irredemable, he would have just actually try to help Odium recruit Kaladin and Lift. The suicide baiting is seriously f'd up as a plan of action, but considering Moash is psychically connected to the literal embodiment of hatred who is playing 52-card pick-up with his emotions it's kind of understandable how he ended up with it. I think it's also important to remember that Moash joins Odium at an explicit "join us or die" choice. He chooses "join us", and he clearly regrets that. I'm not trying to say that Moash is secretly the hero or whatever, just that a redemption arc is very possible. The more I think about his character the more I see the parallels to Marsh especially (just compare Moash's RoW chapters to Marsh HoA ones), but also the Lord Ruler or Hrathan, the characters who are clearly villians from a narrative perspective (do bad things to the protagonist) but have understandable (and often magically forced) motivations. It's an archetype Sanderson clearly really likes. I also there's a lot to be said about how Moash's arc intersects with the Kholin/Moash/Roshone/Kaladin ""situation"" and the whole Alethi insitionalilized casteism thing that it's emblematic of, especially with Gaivnor's growing role in the narrative and the deliberate reminders that Dalinar was (and sometimes still is) a bad person but that's an entirely different thread.
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