Did we ever catch Sazed being a bad boy?

[Macidity]

MISTBORN SPOILER

 

Hey everyone, I was wondering about Sazed's (allignment?). 

Im sure it's a common topic if Sazed is really Harmony or Discord.

We know Lyras used up / killed / lost part of Preservation when he created the humans of Scadrial / broke the contract so technically Preservation is lesser than Ruin? However, both powers have been described as basically infinite so I am not sure this even matters.

I was questioning if we have any evidence or solid ideas if he ever sneakily changed some scripts or other stuff, like Ati used to do.

We know he allowed spook's book to be "known" but that might be a completely rewritten version.  I am just sus of Sazed because both Kel and Hoid avoid him like the plague.

[

Spoiler

I just read the beta version of a SL5 chapter and was definietly wrong about my last sentence as Hoid calls Sazed "One of the wisest men he knows"

]

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Macidity

[Thanatos]

Quote

technically Preservation is lesser than Ruin? However, both powers have been described as basically infinite so I am not sure this even matters

Technically yes, but only to the scadrian system. A Shard can only use power in their local area. 

Aka

Odium, Honor & Cultivation can use their Shards investiture within the Roshar solar system.

Autonomy the Taldain solar system, etc etc.

As Preservation's Shard is invested in the Scadrian solar system, the vessel can only use the Preservation investiture within that system.

Aka, as far as the vessels mind expanded when they assended to godhood is the investiture they can use.

I think Kel avoids him cause Sazed didn't give him a body when he asked at the end of HoA. Also Sazed is in conflict and slowly becoming into a sort of stasis due to Preservation and Ruin being opposites. And his holding their power in "Harmony". Which is why he calls himself Harmony.

Hoid, well he is compelled to be where he is supposed to be by i believe Destiny. 

...

Edit.

Harmony is a double Shard so Sazeds mind and investiture he can use is twice the size/distance than a single Shard, so he can use investiture outside of the Scadrian system which helps  balances out the Preservation/Ruin imbalance. But its still not 50/50 which is why he is doing something with that extra Ruin investiture.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Thanatos

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Macidity said:

We know Lyras used up / killed / lost part of Preservation when he created the humans of Scadrial / broke the contract so technically Preservation is lesser than Ruin? However, both powers have been described as basically infinite so I am not sure this even matters.

It does matter. He gave up more of himself for the creation of humanity. That slight amount was balanced by taking the power of Ruin and binding it in the form of Atium, however Atium is no longer produced, so this power imbalance is showing up again. And the fact that Sazed favors Preservation and is repressing Ruin doesn't help at all.

4 hours ago, Macidity said:

I was questioning if we have any evidence or solid ideas if he ever sneakily changed some scripts or other stuff, like Ati used to do.

No, we have nothing on this, nothing to suggest this. I doubt it would be even possible for him to do, because of his opposing powers. While Ruin power would gladly change texts, Preservation power would oppose it heavily, making Sazed unable to do it. Not to mention Sazed, as a Keeper, would not want to tamper with written knowledge, which is even proven by the fact that while he disagreed with Spook on writing a book about Hemalurgy, he didn't tamper with it in any way (seems like it), and didn't stop Marsh from giving it to others like Marasi.

4 hours ago, Macidity said:

We know he allowed spook's book to be "known" but that might be a completely rewritten version.  I am just sus of Sazed because both Kel and Hoid avoid him like the plague.

Hoid doesn't avoid him. He is present fully during events of Era 2. He hides from any Shard, which is a common sense, but he and Sazed seems to have good relations, and in TLM he stays very close to Wax, I suspect this is the result of Hoid and Sazed agreement to help each other against Odium based on the Letters from SA. 

Similarly Kel doesn't avoid him. He has a spike, which opens him to Sazed influence. In TLM Marsh told that he, Kel and Sazed are like a tripod, balancing each other, so they are close, while not necessarily agreeing with each other.

Quote

"Three of us remain from that originalcrew. After all this time. Only three. Legs to a tripod, balancing one another.And without one ... I do not know what would happen" TLM ch 28

Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they avoid each other.

 

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Technically yes, but only to the scadrian system. A Shard can only use power in their local area. 

Aka

Odium, Honor & Cultivation can use their Shards investiture within the Roshar solar system.

Autonomy the Taldain solar system, etc etc.

As Preservation's Shard is invested in the Scadrian solar system, the vessel can only use the Preservation investiture within that system.

Aka, as far as the vessels mind expanded when they assended to godhood is the investiture they can use.

I think Kel avoids him cause Sazed didn't give him a body when he asked at the end of HoA. Also Sazed is in conflict and slowly becoming into a sort of stasis due to Preservation and Ruin being opposites. And his holding their power in "Harmony". Which is why he calls himself Harmony.

Hoid, well he is compelled to be where he is supposed to be by i believe Destiny. 

...

Edit.

Harmony is a double Shard so Sazeds mind and investiture he can use is twice the size/distance than a single Shard, so he can use investiture outside of the Scadrian system which helps  balances out the Preservation/Ruin imbalance. But its still not 50/50 which is why he is doing something with that extra Ruin investiture.

 

That's not true. The amount of investiture Shard can use depends on how capable is the mind of the Vessel and how far can it reach. Autonomy is present on multiple words, creating avatars left and right (First of the Sun, Obradai, Scadrial etc), her reach is extended likely because her mind is more capable, or she work on expanding in that directions, or originally she wasn't a human but Sho Del.

If Vessel's mind is expanded every time he picks up a Shard, than Sazed's mind was expanded twice, for both of his Shards, making him far more capable than others, if there is a limit, which is more likely, and mind can be only expanded once, then Sazed's mind is expanded as much as other human Vessels, and despite having two Shards, he can only access the same amount of power as the others human Vessels.

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

About the question in the poll, @Macidity are you asking whose idea to protect Scadrial is better, or who would be better at doing it overall? If it's about the idea, then both of them have some good points, but Kelsier wanting to democratize metallic arts seems more beneficial, but if it's about overall protection, than Kelsier can’t compete with Shard’s intrusion, you need another Shard to fight against different Shard, so Sazed is very much needed here.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

About the question in the poll, @Macidity are you asking whose idea to protect Scadrial is better, or who would be better at doing it overall? If it's about the idea, then both of them have some good points, but Kelsier wanting to democratize metallic arts seems more beneficial, but if it's about overall protection, than Kelsier can’t compete with Shard’s intrusion, you need another Shard to fight against different Shard, so Sazed is very much needed here.

If it's Kel vs Sazed with the Shard(s) on the table, would that make Kel the ideal candidate?  Would be be better, worse, or the same in terms of resisting the Shardic discord?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I think it all depends on what is coming for Scadrial.  I am the 1 vote for Kelsier in this poll atm.  Sometimes it takes a violent dog to fight the wolf.  I sort of have a bad taste in my mouth from Sazed not granting kandra the ability to reproduce and keeping them around in servitude.  Kind of a noble move to keep your masked immortals.  I don't imagine Kelsier would have made that choice.  

Though Kel is messed up in otherways.  Perhaps Ruin would have taken a larger hold on Kelsier and there wouldn't be enough balance in him. 

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If it's Kel vs Sazed with the Shard(s) on the table, would that make Kel the ideal candidate?  Would be be better, worse, or the same in terms of resisting the Shardic discord?

Kel wasn't able to hold Preservation I even thought he was holding it, and likely gained some stronger connection to it, I doubt still he would be a good Preservation Vessel. For Ruin he would be a good one, but it would quickly overwhelm him. If Kelsier was Harmony, he would be opposite to Sazed, he would favor Ruin and suppress Preservation, but I doubt he has the necessary understanding of Preservation to even hold this Shard despite his connection to it as a Sliver.

He would be able to act as Ruin alone, but give him enough time and he would end up like Ati.

But the biggest problem is that he still doesn't have a physical body. He is stample to one by Hemalurgy, but during Ascension it won't hold. So he would be a very weak Vessel of any Shard, which would make him always inferior to outside intruders.

So while Sazed is oppressed by his inability to act, he has necessary understanding of both Preservation and Ruin, that he can hold them together, he had a physical body, which doesn't makes him as limited as Kel, and he is in "stable" configuration, meaning he won't self-splinter, that makes him threatening enough to deter possible attacks, and even in act directly under some circumstances. 

Therefore even with Shards, Kel would be worse than Sazed.

[Quantus he/him]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kel wasn't able to hold Preservation I even thought he was holding it, and likely gained some stronger connection to it, I doubt still he would be a good Preservation Vessel. For Ruin he would be a good one, but it would quickly overwhelm him. If Kelsier was Harmony, he would be opposite to Sazed, he would favor Ruin and suppress Preservation, but I doubt he has the necessary understanding of Preservation to even hold this Shard despite his connection to it as a Sliver.

He would be able to act as Ruin alone, but give him enough time and he would end up like Ati.

But the biggest problem is that he still doesn't have a physical body. He is stample to one by Hemalurgy, but during Ascension it won't hold. So he would be a very weak Vessel of any Shard, which would make him always inferior to outside intruders.

So while Sazed is oppressed by his inability to act, he has necessary understanding of both Preservation and Ruin, that he can hold them together, he had a physical body, which doesn't makes him as limited as Kel, and he is in "stable" configuration, meaning he won't self-splinter, that makes him threatening enough to deter possible attacks, and even in act directly under some circumstances. 

Therefore even with Shards, Kel would be worse than Sazed.

That makes a lot of sense, I tend to agree with everything you say. 

Would the lack of Body be a problem once Ascension happened? I only ask because Rashek made himself a new Fullborn body with the power of the Well, I think once Kel held a shard (long enough to know how to use the power) he could very likely just Create and Connect a new body to himself. Or even weirder, the Ascension could somehow "Inflate" the spike itself right along with the rest of the Vessel's Spritweb, making some sort of trans-realmic Super-object.    

[alder24]

Just now, Quantus said:

Would the lack of Body be a problem once Ascension happened? I only ask because Rashek made himself a new Fullborn body with the power of the Well, I think once Kel held a shard (long enough to know how to use the power) he could very likely just Create and Connect a new body to himself. Or even weirder, the Ascension could somehow "Inflate" the spike itself right along with the rest of the Vessel's Spritweb, making some sort of trans-realmic Super-object.    

Yes it would be, Ruin said this even to Kel after he Ascended. He lacked connection to the Physical Realm. Ruin said something like "You have no form or shape. You are dead, you are an idea. The memory of a man holding power will never be as powerful as a real man connected with all three Realms."

Ascension takes you whole, your body, mind and spirit. Rashek didn't make himself a new body, he had one but it was absorbed into the power, he changed his spirit web to become Mistborn. Vin Ascended via the Well, "disappeared" and without using the power of the Well, she returned with a physical body. Shard's Vessels like Leras, Ati, Vin, Rayse, after being killed, drop their body. The body gets absorbed into a Shard and binds them to the Physical Realm.

So likely Kel wouldn't be able to create a body for himself and connect to it, as he lack connection to the Physical Realm in the first place, and he is a Shard who can't have a body like that, so he can't connect himself to one. 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

In the Liar of Partinel samples, we see fain life is covered in skullmoss (and iirc seems to have it inside them, from a few mentions of eating fain-touched animals being deadly). If a fain being were to Ascend, would their body retain this skullmoss when they drop (I mean, Leras and Ati seemed to retain their clothes, so it wouldn't surprise me), or would it be killed off by the process?

(Actually, I'm curious about this with microorganisms and such in general with Vessels, but the fain life is what made me think of it.)

Brandon Sanderson

Imagine the body that drops after a Shard dies being the essence being recreated out of energy. It wasn't there all along--it was absorbed into the power, then drops back out as a kind of husk. But it's not literally the same atoms. There has been some strange E=MC2=Investiture shenanigans going on.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Is this similar to transitioning in and out of the Cognitive through a Perpendicularity?

And does this recreated thing include microorganisms (like the stomach bacteria or something), skullmoss, foot fungus, clothing, etc? Or just the minimum required to count as the body itself? (Leras and Ati tended to appear dressed, as well as Leras having his knife, but them choosing to appear in the Cognitive might not be the same thing as that body.)

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO it here. Good questions as always, though, LTT.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

He for sure can't Ascend to Preservation with a spike, that of Ruin, it would be repulsed, but to Ruin maybe. I don't know what the rules are, but Kelsier's current body isn't his original body, so he still lacks connection to PR.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Kelsier held Preservation for a while in HoA/SH but was still very limited by being a shadow. He couldn't just create a body for himself.

I think Kelsier's personality, if he could hold both Shards, would let him reach a Ruin-dominant balance between them rather than Sazed's attempt to have Preservation dominate ... which might be more stable since Ruin is stronger, but would also likely lead to a messier world.

I wonder if Sazed could temporarily hand over Ruin to Kelsier to let Kel go to town on an enemy Shard though...

[Macidity]

13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if Sazed could temporarily hand over Ruin to Kelsier to let Kel go to town on an enemy Shard though...

What a great thought. I could absolutely see something like this in a future Era. 

[Macidity]

Thanks a lot @alder24 and also @Thanatos for the very detailed replies. It was a pleassure reading through them and gave me a lot of info/views I hadn't thought about before.

[+robardin he/him]

Just to reply to the poll question phrasing in the OP -

I voted "Sazed" because If you are worried about what's becoming of Harmony 340 years after taking up pretty much the full shard of Ruin (no more atium trap-cycle) and the slightly debased power level of Preservation (the Donation of Leras to the humans of Scadrial) - that it's skewing Sazed over time to become "Discord" due to the imbalance...

...Shouldn't you be even MORE worried about how long that would have taken to "imbalance" Kelsier, who aside from being a Cognitive Ghost instead of a living Vessel, was already heavily Connected to Ruin ("why, you're merely an aspect of me!", said Ati/Ruin, and it was not just a deflection)?

[Could Be Fire]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:56 AM, alder24 said:

Kel wasn't able to hold Preservation I even thought he was holding it, and likely gained some stronger connection to it, I doubt still he would be a good Preservation Vessel. For Ruin he would be a good one, but it would quickly overwhelm him. If Kelsier was Harmony, he would be opposite to Sazed, he would favor Ruin and suppress Preservation, but I doubt he has the necessary understanding of Preservation to even hold this Shard despite his connection to it as a Sliver.

He would be able to act as Ruin alone, but give him enough time and he would end up like Ati.

On 4/4/2023 at 6:18 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if Sazed could temporarily hand over Ruin to Kelsier to let Kel go to town on an enemy Shard though...

 

This makes me think of the insane tinfoil I've been percolating in my brain that Kel (and Marsh) were at one point part of one of Preservation's's ideas to deal with his inevitable death and Ruin's release. We know from various WOBs on Shards that the ones with reasonably good future sight (like Preservation) tend to come with some Batman-level gambits and scatter out seeds of plans to see what sticks to the wall. Just look at Cultivation or Endowment. Obviously, the Vin and Sazed plan was the one that succeeded but that doesn't mean Leras didn't have backups in the works.

Basically, I think at one point Preservation was seeing if Kelsier could being set up to be the new vessel for Ruin, with Marsh to take up Preservation.

There's no real hard evidence for this but there are a lot of weird (un)lucky things that happen to both brothers surrounding their powers. The whole circumstances under which Kel becomes a Mistborn are very sketchy. Like he snaps super late in a weird way (with Preservation directly connecting to him). It almost makes me think he didn't have Mistborn genes before the mist came to him in the pits. Which would make sense if he was to be Ruin's vessel without the Preservation connection innate to Mistborn contaminating him. Even after being made Mistborn, we know he's deeply connected to Ruin per Secret History. Which is kinda suspicious in of itself.

As for Marsh, he becomes Inquisitor almost suspiciously fast. Like, yes, he's a really good candidate on paper but there's no way his lies wouldn't be caught with a thorough background check, which you'd think they would do before making him one of the most powerful people in the empire. If Marsh was another possible Preservation vessel, it would be logical for Ruin to use his influence to get him spiked ASAP. Just like how Ruin enacted a plan to spike the Vin, the canon proto-vessel for Preservation, as soon as he could.

 

Finally, a more meta level, I think it's a good plan? Like it kinda just makes sense. As you guys say in the quotes, Kelsier is basically the perfect vessel for Ruin (assuming you don't want to destroy the world). His whole thing seems to be using chaos (Ruin) for the good of Scadrial. As for Marsh, his determination and general attitude is very similar to Vin's (the ideal Preservation vessel). And beyond being excellent candidates individual, they actually could function as a pair with those two shards. Their whole lives have been basically forced cooperation despite being drastically different.

 

Like if I had to pick two characters who would have any chance of succeeding to have a functional Scadrial as Ruin and Preservation it would be them.