CognitiveShadow

I got to thinking about this topic again today and came back to re-read this comment and try to understand it better. I honestly have a hard time understanding where you are coming from. Are you of the opinion that ideals are concrete/final and 'good' no matter what the situation or circumstances? Does it matter what the ideal is, or does it only matter that one has sworn to the ideal? In my mind, this creates a situation where a person outsources their own moral compass or ability to make decisions by simply determining that no matter what happens they will hold to the Ideal. It removes the burden of responsibility from the shoulders of the person and lets them pass that on to whoever or whatever motivated them to make the commitment to the ideal. Perhaps if you could frame some ideals that do cover every single possible circumstance and remove all need for critical thinking or analysis then you'd have something I could support here, but the ideals in Stormlight specifically are often contradictory, motivated for different purposes and individual growth in different areas, or potentially dangerous and harmful if taken to extremes. I used to be super Mormon. One of my ideals was that I would never speak poorly of the leaders of that church, because I believed they were given direction in just about everything they did by God. I outsourced my morals to be essentially whatever they said they should be. I was, for all intents and purposes, a skybreaker who had sworn to an organization as my ideal. In hindsight, I've learned that this was a very bad idea. Leaders of any organization need critiques and feedback in order to hold them accountable and make sure they are doing the best/right things. I've since moved away from that path and taken back my moral accountability / responsibility, and have new ideals that are centered more on doing no harm to others and the continuous search of verifiable truth. But another key part of my new ideals includes a willingness and readiness to change my behavior or even beliefs when confronted with new and compelling information indicating I have been misinformed or incorrect on any given topic/issue. I try not to be too certain that any ideal I hold to is eternally 'good' or correct, instead recognizing that they are usually good and coming from a good intent - but the onus is on me to make sure that it is actually good in each situation. (I also recognize the irony in using this example as Brandon is an active LDS member, but I'll just point out that he has made comments that contradict policies from church leaders so I assume he has some level of nuanced thinking in these areas as well) Does that all mean I think ideals are worthless? No - quite the contrary. I am definitely opening a dialogue about their purpose and the best way to use them, but I still find immense value in them. I think ideals that guide our behaviors and morals are a great, wonderful thing to have. But I believe it is ok, even proper, for those ideals to change over time as we grow and develop. And that we should never - ever - prioritize holding to an ideal for the sake of keeping our commitment if we can see that the circumstances call for us to act differently. To me, this is the dialogue that Brandon is opening. I see a beauty in the nuance of always seeking to do what is right in any given situation, even if it might be against our standard ideals that guide most of our decisions. The willingness to bend when we recognize that circumstances demand it: Sigzil rejecting his oaths and harming his spren temporarily but protecting her from complete destruction... even Dalinar's rejection of his oaths I see as an attempt to teach the power the lesson I've laid out above (which was a painful and difficult lesson for me to learn given my prior binary way of thinking)... Fen choosing to serve her people and prevent violence, choosing the best possible outcome and recognizing defeat instead of choosing to fight a hopeless battle for friends who would have ultimately made the same choice she did... But anyway, I just had these thoughts today and wanted to put them down here - hope they aren't too rambly or difficult to understand. My intent is not to say that my way of thinking is the only right way, just an attempt to help paint the picture of why I found these themes incredibly deep and powerful and important. If there is anything more you can say regarding 'rationality' overcoming 'sincerity' I'd love to hear it cause that line is especially difficult for me to grasp - I see both of those things as critical. Being irrational but sincere is - to me - kind of useless and represents being lost and detached from reality. And being rational but insincere is cold and sad, representing to me the idea of a detachment from emotion and empathy. Ideally we can find a balance of both, but I admit that I do find rationality to be more important to me than sincerity - if ever so slightly. While lacking sincerity removes a lot of the value behind our actions and intents, no matter how badly we want something to be a certain way our sincerity cannot overcome the objective truth of what it is. I think we have to ground ourselves in rationality, but I don't see how that requires us to lose sincerity. Ideally, rationality woudl guide our sincerity in the right directions, whereas sincerity without rationality can point us in a very wrong direction with a whole lot of passion.

This was my interpretation as well - pretty much that the characters tried their best to follow all of their oaths but we see time after time where those oaths get in the way of higher morals. The mere fact that you can have conflicting oaths and the reason your spren dies or almost dies is because you are forced to break one of the oaths and not because one or more of the oaths was a bad thing to swear to shows how unreliable the system is. Brandon is exploring the pros and cons of keeping Oaths. Then in WaT he sets us up to start exploring the pros and cons of breaking oaths. I wouldn't be surprised to see us eventually come to a place by the end of the series where we are exploring a mix of both and have characters finding the balance of when to hold and when to fold. Maybe Hoid will even sing a song about it "you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em"

Tangential, but related. Brandon has been cagey about whether someone like Kelsier could be bonded and what that would do. But here's the best WoB I've seen on the topic. I would imagine that if a true Nahel bond was replicated there would be some way to manifest the cognitive shadow, though who knows if it would be as a shardblade... ? The Stormfather does not manifest as a shardblade though, and when Dalinar uses him to open the oathgate it gets pretty spicy. So I redact my earlier thought and suggest that a cognitive shadow would (if anything) manifest more along the same lines as the Stormfather would/did for Dalinar. I.E. not really at all but sort of when absolutely demanded by the 'radiant' in order to do something like open an oathgate. But that always seemed to me less of like forming the key to use the oath gate and more like dousing the oathgate with investiture and willing it to work lol

In general it just seems like you have zero appetite or appreciation for the very real nuances that surround us every second of every day. Brandon including the nuance and showing that there is more than just right and wrong is embracing the nuance and allows for people to be individuals who find their own way. That’s healthy. Ignoring the nuance just because you dislike it doesn’t make it any less real.

Yes, I love this! It's exploration of ideas and themes. The first half of the series largely explored the importance of making and keeping oaths, and has only just barely introduced the idea of there being 'good' motivations for rejecting and renouncing them as well. I am excited to see where he takes things and as you said - there will be pros and cons on each side. Which is just great for open/objective analysis and exploration. Who would have expected at the time of the scene where Dalinar and Odium were setting the original terms for the agreement that by the time they were in the contest Dalinar would be renouncing his oaths? It's so contrary to the rest of the books, and yet it fits so well due to the circumstances and motivations of all characters invovled. Fascinating.

Would you prefer the ideal of blind obedience and devotion to one side regardless of circumstance? Are you opposed to people folloiwng their convictions with sincerity, devoted to doing what they feel is right even though it may put them at odds with the larger movement that they have previously supported? I'm all for people getting to make their own choices, and very against people being controlled by a dictator who they are not allowed to question. Bippy the flamespren seemed pretty happy to me. And I believe that the Sibling agreed to this change because they were able to recognize that this was a good solution. It's literally no different from riding horses or having them pull a cart. If you treat them well and meet their needs, I think it's fine. If you mistreat them and torture them then it's not cool. The Sibling's very nature would not allow them to agree to this if it wasn't an acceptable one. Protecting the spren is one of their top priorities. Adonalsium made the spren, and part of that included creating the groundwork for fabrial creation. The earlier Rosharans had a better process, one that invovled spren choosing to manifest as fabrials. This only worked with true spren (higher spren with sapience), so eventually they learned to trap the lesser spren. I see this more as a growth/progress for Navani and humans at large, as they admit that their previous process was not right. So they are changing to make it so that the spren used in fabrials are well treated. I do and have and will again. A major part of this series is exploring oaths and their value - Honor wants nothing but the strict adherence of all oaths, believes there is no bad oath, and that keeping an oath cannot be wrong. We learn that there is quite a bit of nuance to that in the real world though and in the cosmere. I'm glad that this is represented because it makes the story feel more real than it would if everything was just black or white. What do you have against people thinking for themselves, analyzing the situation, and making the choice that they feel is best? Do you take issue with Sigzil renouncing his oaths to save his spren? I actually think Brandon wasn't even trying to say that ideals are dumb or anything - I think he was just opening a dialogue by showing that there is a benefit to questioning things that we think are absolute, to keeping an open mind and being willing to trailblaze instead of following the same path that everyone expects us to. I found it inspiring and enlightening. I also don't recall saying that I thought ideals were dumb nonsense for losers.... My point is that making our decisions from an internal, rational, open place is much better than making our decisions based on external pressures. When we make decisions purely because we made an oath, we aren't giving any thought to the consequences or the reasons - it's just robotic step by step. I used to be in a high demand religion (grew up in it all my life) and that was how I lived. You make covenants, you do x, then y, then z. When I finally allowed myself to think freely and consider the truth claims I'd been taught from an objective place, my motivations changed drastically. I think it also made me a much better person as a side affect. I care more about people because I have real intentions behind each of my actions. I don't just blindly follow the motions laid out in front of me. Maybe that makes me nuanced or soulless or modern - whatever it makes me, I'm glad I am what I am, because I'm free Just adding one more example that came to mind because it's a scene that gets a lot of hate but one that I'm particularly passionate about: the debate scene. I think Fen made the correct and best choice as the leader of her people. She betrayed her promises and her alliance, she betrayed Jasnah, did all the things that would normally be decried as wrong. But she also put herself and her people in the best possible scenario moving forward, and even Jasnah had to admit that she would have done the same thing. These kinds of scenarios are fascinating because we run into them in the real world. Lower stakes to be sure, but its very fun to see Brandon exploring these things and giving us great topics to discuss and questions to consider. I also loved how Jasnah reacted upon realizing her own hypocrisy and finally identifying her own blind spots. We all have them and I know that since finding some of mine (in a way that shattered my worldview of reality) has taught me to actively seek them out. I am excited to see how she progresses moving forward in the back half, and how she rebuilds. So many things to look forward to!

hahah or claim's that it's at least indistinguishable from the real person Another good example for those who have seen the Prestige (warning, major spoilers though I tried to be somewhat vague. If you haven't seen it you absolutely should cause it's amazing)

This question is more of a philosophical one. Vasher probably wouldn't admit it, but he's a very philosophical person - he questions everything and analyzes even whether he can trust that he is still the same person he used to be, even though it feels fo rhim like he is. Essentially, it's like the question of Last Thursdayism. What if everything we know to exist didn't actually start until last Thursday and it was all created (our memories and historical records, etc.) at that time. Is there any way to know? If that is true.. well all of our lives up to that point weren't real but are just fabricated memories. Similarly, what if we have souls and our souls move into a different body each day but inherit those memories? No way to know if that's true or not true. But if it is, we are technically not who we think we are. But even then, we are still ourselves for that day. You can think up a ton of different questions like this, but at the end of the day it doesn't have a practical or observable application in the real world or in the Cosmere. So it's not really awkward for Syl or for anyone else. Even if Vasher is absolutely correct, he is still who he is and still feels like he is the same person he originally was, even if the technically 'pure' original version of him went off into the Beyond long ago. Same is true for Kaladin. Same is true for all the other Cognitive Shadows out there. Brandon has said that this is a question he won't answer - probably because it doesn't actually make a difference. The only exception here where it makes things different that I can think of is the new spren of the Blackthorn - he has all of Dalinar's memories, but was crafted from the spiritual realm by Dalinar himself. Essentially, he is the same as Dalinar, but he received all those memories at a time when he was not ready for what they might mean for him. Therefore, he rejects them and claims he will take his own path. Time will tell whether he eventually accepts the lessons that OG Dalinar was trying to pass on, but in the meantime he will likely have some very awkward interactions with Navani, Adolin, Renarin, etc. Probably trying to kill them. We also know that Cognitive Shadows can be influenced by others' perceptions of them. They are kind of like spren in that regard - since they are made purely of investiture, the general populous having particular expectations of them can mold them a little bit over long periods of time. So it's fair to say that eventually they will change enough that they are different from the person they used to be. But who is to say whether the original person would or would not have made the same changes over time if they were also immortal and placed in the same situations? Again, no way to know any of these answers for certain. But definitely fun and interesting to consider the implications and explore them!

Maybe it's more about how even the good guys have been the bad guys at times. Maybe it's less to do with holding fast to one side no matter what, and more to do with realizing that when we each choose for ourselves instead of letting others choose for us we can create our own side. The Oathgate spren choosing to be independent and to make their own decisions about when to let people pass through, other spren also choosing to allow Sja-Anat to enlighten them and be 'reborn' in a way, the Sibling finding a compromise with Navanni that improves the existence of lesser spren while still giving the humans a way to create amazing tools in a more 'humane' way... Each of the examples you listed represent (to me at least) breaking free from the control of larger/higher powers and forging our own paths. Refusing to play the game as we've been instructed to, and finding the value in a middle ground. Exploring solutions for the betterment of everyone instead of exploring solutions for the betterment of ONE SIDE. That's what Roshar has been for millenia - 2 sides fighting against each other, refusing to find any common ground or compromise, determined to destroy one another. Now we have Leshwi and others with her who have rebelled against Odium and joined the Listeners, Adolin and his Unoathed crew who have created their own special circumstances and an Oasis for people to come and find safety. A new oathpact with heralds who had given up and even been corrupted, yet who have made the decision and commitment to take a new path instead of falling into the same old patterns as before. Even Taravangian broke when it came time to prove his commitment to his 'values/philosophy' - he could not destroy everything that he loved, and instead keeps it safe and holds to his secret tightly for fear of showing his weakness. He also has the attention of all the other shards (not to mention a couple hidden from his view that he has to be very paranoid about, particularly Valor). He can't act with impunity and has his hands tied in many ways that limits his ability to do damage. I see an amazing situation where the patterns have all been broken and the game is reset anew. Instead of the powers of Honor and Odium fighting against each other, they are tentatively working together. Cultivation has fled, but left behind a few key players in the game with spectacular abilities of their own. In short, I don't see an end - I see a brand new beginning and a whole lot of hope for the future.

Maybe he even picks up where Kaladin left off and tries to keep developing some form of therapy and cares for those with mental illnesses? And perhaps a marker of the people in his group who provide that care all have Shash tattoos?

Loving all of this speculation! This is where my brain went too - it’s going to be a similar thing to the church of the survivor maybe but on a much smaller scale. We saw the bridge 4 crew waiting for Kaladin to come out of the chasms when everyone else thought he was dead. We sad the people putting glyphs on their foreheads when they believed he would save them. Maybe this time around, Lirin is one of the first to put a glyph on his forehead and declare that he knows his son is not gone, so long as he lives in the hearts of men? Of course he’d mean it in a spiritual feel-good way, and he’d be one of the most shocked when Kaladin actually did return lol

It’s fine to have the ick from a character because of who they are. It’s understandable to have the ick against a group of people that are technically a different species It’s not cool to declare that no one should be allowed to have romantic relationships in either of the above cases because you have the ick though. That’s where it’s a problem for me - when someone pushes their ick onto other people and says it shouldn’t happen. And that’s the vibe I got from OP… plus I picked up on some veiled anti-lgbtq / interracial vibes with some of the positions taken here which is also not cool (I realize OP tried to call these out specifically as not connected with their arguments, but the vibes are still there and I have a hard time seeing someone get the “ick” with Renarin and Rlain without thinking they might have the “ick” for other reasons). This is a preposterous take on what I was saying. Obviously that’s not what I meant. See my above statements if you didn’t understand my intent earlier. The issue comes about when someone has the ick and decides that no one else should do that thing. Another preposterous and overly literal reading of my comments. Understand that I know the complexities involved in a romantic relationship and all of the nuance and detail that gets taken into consideration when selecting romantic partners. I’m speaking only to the problematic areas that I could see having moral or ethical implications, which would impact how one *should or should not* feel about a given situation. So yeah, there are plenty of factors for one to consider before making a decision. I took OPs question under the assumption that the people involved in said relationship *already want to be in the relationship together*. If that’s the case, then they’ve clearly demonstrated the ability to give consent and acknowledge the other party’s consent. If the people involved are sexually interested, then I assume they already have an attraction to each other as well. If someone is attracted to a baboon (I don’t get it but whatever) and that baboon is someone fully sapient and able to give the same level of consent and interest as an adult human being, then I don’t care what those beings do or don’t do in their bedroom as long as everyone is healthy and safe. is that clear enough?

My point with the ape stuff is not to say anything about the genetics. My hair comment is intended to refer to all of the physical/genetic differences, so what I'm saying is that I don't care about the genetics. I care about mental capacity, sapience & intelligence, and the ability to give consent and respect someone else's consent. If an ape somehow has all of those things, then who cares about the genetic differences (aside from the idea that their genetics would probabaly need to be altered in order for them to have those other capabilities in full)? The ability to have children is a question for the author to answer, but we know that humans and singers definitely can produce offspring because there are hybrid breeds in Roshar. Even they could not have offspring, I wouldn't consider that anything but a natural consequence of their genetic differences. Something for the individuals to consider and decide if that impacts whether they want to be together or not, but not something that determines if they should or should not be allowed to. There's actually a lot of people saying they shouldn't. Saying that it gives you the 'ick' is (for me) the equivalent of calling something immoral.

First - humans kind of are sapient apes. Second, a sapient ape would not be an ape, it would be a hairy person and that's a pretty common thing to see in the world. Hell, maybe that's someone's type and I don't judge lol This was also addressed in the book when Drehy talked with Renarin about Rlain. Renarin points out that Rlain is a Singer, and Drehy gives a very important message: Humans, Singers, Spren, they're all people. Given Koravellium and Tanavast's relationship, we can add dragons to the mix there. And given Wayne and Melaan, we can throw Kandra into the mix as well. There is no reason to limit people of all kinds that clearly have equal ability to function and make choices of their own free will from mutually choosing to love each other and be together.

No she didn't know about the deepest ones that would have killed them, but it was clear that her options were: 1. Fight and maybe win, leaving her city damaged (again) and nation isolated and surrounded by enemies with no one to trade [fairly] with 2. Fight and likely lose, leaving her city damaged (again), herself likely killed, and Odium's forces in control establishing a new government that would likely result in continued bloodshed along the way 3. Surrender and take a deal with Odium which would guarantee the safety of her people and herself, and would likely allow her to negotiate some favorable terms that would give Thaylenah the opportunity to develop and grow into a superpower. Odium is a slimy loophole loving lunatic, but at least his being a shard means he would be bound to keep the agreements. Sure, he'll find some ways to undermine some of them, but not enough to do severe damage to the people. Odium had enough motivations to keep the city and nation intact and functioning at full force so long as they agreed to serve under his rule. In my mind it was a no brainer. And then you add in the deepest ones and it's even more obvious that there was no alternative. Even before the deepest ones were mentioned, Jasnah herself had to admit that she would have done the same thing Odium wanted to take the city by negotiations instead of by forced bloodshed. It's much better to keep the current government in place than to have to kill off the ones who oppose you and then set up the new people from there. Sure, he could do it either way, but by going through this debate process he was able to break down Jasnah a little bit (and hopefully loosen her convictions enough to the point that eventually down the road she might work with him, which was clearly a goal of his here) and convince Fen to hand him control of the city without the annoying process of setting up new leadership and cutting down inssurections. That's why he was willing to make the deal instead of just forcing the attacks with the deepest ones and ending it before it started.

Always sunny in Azir put me into a fit lol that’s amazing But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway

No one is saying that the real person Nohadon who lived on Roshar was necessarily anything more than a person. It’s totally possible for the Nohadon that interacted with Dalinar in the weird Nohadon dream/visions was coming from another shard like Valor. Valor is hidden and it would make sense if she was hiding “behind enemy lines” and right under Odium’s nose. If Valor was interacting with Dalinar and others, it would make sense that she would pattern her communication in the same way that He was used to communicating with the almighty/Honor - visions. And appearing to Dalinar as someone he looked up to and could recognize also makes sense. So the Nohadon in those visions could have been constructed/directed by Valor. And it is very odd and feels very intentional that Brandon specifically said Dalinar was claimed by another when Retribution tried to snatch up his soul. We were explicitly told that Dalinar was in Taravangians power and T could destroy him because Dalinar threw the contest, but again - when he tried get Dalinar, his powers told him that he was claimed by another…. Valor could have claimed Dalinar after forging a connection with him via The Way of Kings, and then just protected him from Odium’s grasp until he was able to slip into the beyond. That’s the only theory here I could get behind for sure, cause I don’t think Brandon will be doing much with characters that go into the beyond or having them interact with some actual “god beyond” at any point. That will all stay mysterious.

I'd argue that her lack of empathy and "genuine-ness" is what caused the lack of foresight. If she had been able to put herself into Fen's shoes and tried considering how she might feel if she were in that position, maybe she would have been much more prepared for the arguments that Todium would make. I get that it seems like an obvious thing for her to miss. I agree that she should have realized that Thaylenah would have been in a bad spot even after winning, but the fact that she didn't is (for me) an obvious example of a blind spot that she has. If it was for her own nation and people, she would have thought of this point and many others. But in this case she expected to be able to use her confidence, relationship, and reputation to keep Fen in line. She only thought of Fen, and not even from personal relationship standpoint - she thought of Fen from a 'dependent on the support of Dalinar and the coalition' standpoint. Odium showed Fen that Jasnah's relationship with her wasn't necessarily genuine or deep. He showed her that confidence in Jasnah and the coalition might be misplaced. And he used Jasnah's reputation and espoused beliefs as the baseline reasoning for why accepting his deal was the best solution.

Adonalsium sneakily floating around the cosmere as a secret 17th shard? Perhaps invovled in the founding a group by the same name? hmmmmmmm?

She has been a minor-to-significant character in the first half, and we know that she is expected to be a major character in the back half. She could not go through much character development throughout the first half, but still had to be involved in the story. We have also seen in her own POV's that she constantly doubts herself, yet when it's not her POV she seems insanely confident. I don't know what you're missing here - she has always put on a confident front, and she tells Shallan as much. But that mentality can only get you so far, especially when you are put into an impossible and unwinnable situation against a literal god who forces you to confront all the things you've been subconsiously hiding from while using your confidence as a mask/crutch. She will now be forced to face reality, and we will get to see her go through that process in the back half of the books. I actually think it's fascinating - Kaladin was one of the primary characters (if not the main character) for the first half, and he was struggling with depression, self-worth, etc. the whole time, slowly getting more sure of himself and building hope. Now we have Jasnah who will be more of a main character who has outwardly shown nothing but confidence and determination, and has accomplished a ton of things that she openly recognizes were significant and important (just highlighting how opposite she is from Kaladin). Yet we got to see flashes of her self-doubt (which she repeatedly suppresses when it pops up), and then got to see her confident facade crumble. She was defeated in the very thing that she was supposed to be the 'best' at, even if it wasn't a fair fight and there wasn't actually a way to win. She's always been broken, just like the rest of the characters, but now she is going to have to admit that to herself. And that's going to be how she grows and develops into an even cooler character. I'm excited to see it, and find it very interesting since it is in some ways the inverse of Kaladin's character arch. I think you nailed the crux of it right there - Jasnah never considered that Fen would actually waver. She couldn't concieve of it, because in her mind there was no real reason to go back. There was no way to make a deal with Odium. And it points out that Jasnah lacks empathy. Yes, she can care for people and build strong relationships, but when considering something important like whether to give the city up to Odium or not, she isn't actually good at putting herself in other people's shoes. She didn't even grasp why Fen would consider the deal until it was flipped around and she was asked if she would sacrifice Thaylen City for her own people... She was trying to get Fen to ignore Todium and stay loyal to her and the Coalition at the detriment of her own city and people, but she didn't even factor in that aspect. Once the role reversal was made clear, it was obvious that she would have made the deal that Fen did. In my opinion, this is why the debate was powerful. Maybe it wasn't great from a storyline/plot/writing style perspective, and maybe the arguments weren't as flowery or in depth as some debate scholars would have preferred. But from a character perspective, I found this section to be extremely deep and powerful. We got a lot of windows into who Jasnah really is, what motivates her, what frightens her, and what she hides from herself. We all have blind spots that seem extremely obvious to other people, which we are completely oblivious to. But once those are pointed out in a powerful enough way, there is no turning back and we are changed forever. It's a sucky experience at first, but then it turns into an important opportunity for growth and progress. At the end of the day, there was no winning for Jasnah, and Fen made the only choice she could make that wasn't a pointless adherence to keeping oaths at the detriment of her people and city. This debate was never about the city, and Odium inviting Jasnah to come and seek out his help down the road hints at that. Like I've said, I think Todium set this up in the hopes that he could break Jasnah at least a little, and get her to just open up to the possibility that maybe she isn't so different from him and could work with him in the future (assuming he were to become the ruler of the entire planet at the end). The debate was purely about Jasnah's own character development and preparing for the back half of the series and I am totally here for it. I think this is a fair point, but like I've said above I also think it is important for her character development in the back half of the books. She has built her image on her ability to project confidence and by all accounts she has backed that up for the most part. We did get to see examples of her cleverness throughout the book, so we know she actually is extremely smart and capable. But think about the letter that she wrote to the Azish - they were astounded by her writing ability and arguments, the way she styled the writing in a single 'rhythmic meter' and included all 7 logical forms and whatnot. She is extremely capable, and no one doubts that. But like I said just above this - she lacks empathy and is not the most genuine person. That's why Navani's arguments were what really won over the Azish people in that instance: was genuine and real in her pleading for them to consider joining the coalition. It's likely that however you define what Jasnah's essay was missing in that case is also what her arguments were missing for Fen. Maybe Fen would have been swayed if Jasnah had been a little more like her mother, and had expressed some passion and some emotion instead of her usual cold, calculating logic and reason. That said, it would have been disastrous and Fen did make the right choice, so it's actually better than Jasnah was herself in that moment. At least for the Thaylen people, anyway...

I actually think this was part of it - the whole event humanized Jasnah and showed that she does the exact thing she had taught Shallan to do: put on an air of confidence and others will believe you know what you’re doing. That doesn’t mean Jasnah isn’t extremely smart and capable, but it just emphasizes that she is a mortal human being with flaws. One of those flaws is lacking some self-awareness when it comes to her belief systems. She likes to think she has all the answers, and when she analyzes them in theory it all checks out. But when put into a practical application where a difficult decision is forced on her, she finally sees what she’d been missing. Plus she was up against a literal god… so she never stood a chance anyway. For me, part of the the point of this whole event was showing that Jasnah had gotten so good at using her confidence to sway people and give her authority and power, that she actually bought into her own act. So now she has to deconstruct that a bit and get a little more real with who she is, what she believes, and what she views as right / wrong motivators when it comes to morality. I agree that the arguments were kind of pointless and rudimentary, but I also feel like it was intentional. Jasnah went in expecting it to be a progressive debate, beginning at the fundamentals and then moving beyond them to more and more complex analysis. Logic and reason. She points out that there were arguments T made that she expected and then moved into her next phase. It was going to move in that direction. But Todium did what Dalinar did at the end - he just flipped the table and changed the game to a completely different thing entirely. He stopped arguing philosophy and trying to defend his actions. Instead he basically put an ultimatum on the table - “join me in peace or join me after blood and destruction, also even if you win you’ll be cut off and isolated so good luck with that, also Jasnah (and more importantly all of the alethi in general) actually can’t be trusted any better than I can be.” Jasnah got caught up in what she was expecting it to be, was forced to acknowledge and admit to things from her past that clearly she had pretended did not trouble her. And she was confronted with the reality of her hypocrisy. It seemed to me that T had two goals: capture the city in a way that doesn’t require destruction and setting up a whole new government, and break down Jasnah in a way that opens the door to her *potentially* coming over and seeking T’s help at some point in the future. I saw it as one small part of a larger scale plan by Taravangian to manipulate and coerce, and to convince others that he is right and make them doubt themselves. It was all in character and (I thought) very well done.

Which is still better than the alternative

I think Dalinar is dead and gone for sure, but that doesn't rule out Valor here. She could have claimed him and therefore protected Dalinar from being grasped by Retribution at the end.

Right - actual Dalinar is definitively dead and gone... BUT his copy that holds his memories, who Retribution pulled out of the spiritual realm, will be back as the Blackthorn and will be a kickass evil general... and I could see him being shaped by those memories of the people who knew and loved the real Dalinar. I could also see him having internal conflict and growing into a better version. He has all of Dalinar's memories and he seems to be unphased by it initially, but when rubber meets the road he might start to realize he takes issue with the things Retribution commands him to do. He might start to find that real Dalinar had it right, and that he wants to take the next step as well. That said, he may just get corrupted worse and worse by Retribution's power and be turned into an even more evil darth vader type character?

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the debate with Odium for Thaylen City. It was a refreshing break from the battles and added some really interesting insights to the in-world perspectives and deeper character motivations and beliefs. But I have seen a lot of complaints about that part falling flat for people, and the main arguments I keep seeing are below (along with my response to each point): Jasnah got torn apart by obvious holes in her preferred philosophy about trying to do the most good for the most people Jasnah didn't 'lose a debate' with Odium. She was preparing for a logical analysis of reasons, pros and cons, etc. Odium came in and made her feel comfortable by hitting some points she expected, then went personal and dug up old things from her past to discredit her reliability as an ally. He went ad hominem and just attacked Jasnah's character to weaken Fen's trust in her. Then he showed Jasnah (and Fen as well) that she could not get Fen to stick with her and the Coalition without going against her own espoused philosophies. I revealed to Jasnah that she didn't actually hold her moral philosophy above all else - she put her family and her people above it first. That's not to say it is necessarily bad or wrong that she does that, but it revealed a blind spot that she had - one which she was previously unaware of. Jasnah should have been aware of the conflicts that Odium pointed out to her We all have our own blind spots and things that we subconciously don't let ourselves recognize and admit. Someone stuck in an abusive relationship will deny that and will keep telling themselves it can get better. People who are really, really smart and business savvy can fall for a con or a pyramid scheme because they have a blind spot for a family member or a friend, people (myself included) can live their whole life accepting a religious and/or political view as fact and completely ignore any aspects of it that are false/wrong. As someone who has had an "awakening" in that regard and realized how incorrect I was in a million different ways, Jasnah's reaction to the debate debacle actually resonated with me a LOT. It was extremely well written from the perspective of someone who thinks they have found truth, thinks they have all the answers, only to have it all come crumbling down when you realize that you were lying to yourself. That your certainty was holding you back from seeing things clearly. I certainly don't fault Jasnah for missing the tactics that Odium would employ or for not recognizing the blind spots that she had. Fen should not have so easily given in and accepted a deal with Odium She was not going to, but finding out that Jasnah had investigated her with the consideration that she might need to be assassinated is kind of a shocker for any friend. Sure, it could be explained and she should be able to recognize that, but I think it is enough for her to at least pause for a moment and consider just how much better a deal with Jasnah and the Coalition is vs. the deal that Odium could offer. Her city had already been through a couple of massive rebuilds. In her mind, should she refuse, they would be forced into yet another battle for the city, hoping that Taravangian was dishonest about his ability to take it. It would mean many of her people dying, and even if they won the city would be left almost alone as it rebuilt. As Odium pointed out - the other ports would be under Singer control and likely wouldn't be playing nice with them. A merchant city without sales... It would be clinging to an oath just to keep it, leaving the city (at best) in a dire situation. If they took the deal on the other hand, they'd be protected, wealthy, and alive. Not to mention Odium basically gave them a blank check for the negotiations. Quick additional side note - unbeknownst to her, the deepest ones would pretty much kill them and the protective measures they'd taken for the council were useless and manipulated by Odium anyway - there was no winning. So to that point it's also a good thing she made the deal. Odium and Taravangian both are known enemies, traitors, and (if not outright liars) deceptive and manipulative to the point that they will undermine any agreement through loopholes anyway This is a great point. But I don't see how that outweighs all of the above responses. All you can do is try your best to make him give explicit promises which he would have to keep, ensuring as much safety, prosperity, and freedom for the city as possible. Which he pretty much said he would give almost any assurances she needed. As a shard he had to keep his direct promises. Sure, he might incite others to try and cause problems for you, but much less so that he would if Thaylen City was opposed to him. Joining him gave them the best possible outcome for the most people. Jasnah herself couldn't deny without lying that she would do the exact same thing. The only reason she was arguing against it was because it was not what was best for her family and people. And that's what threw Jasnah into a bit of a deconstructive spin - she realized that she didn't truly follow what she claimed. She was totally willing to bend her philosophy when it came to protecting her family first, even at the rist of sacrificing Fen and her city. So she couldn't really blame Fen for making the choice that she did. And neither do I.