CognitiveShadow

You are absolutely right here. It will probably turn out to be something we couldn't have predicted, but my best guess is that Tanavast stepped down, left it all behind (to the extent that he could), and became Nohadon A damn good point lol I definitely want the secrets too lol

Maybe Nohadon is a Swiftie?

ALSO! My thoughts from the chapter headings: This HAS to be about Tanavast stepping down and abdicating from his role as Honor. It's just got to be alluding to that. I really think that Honor steps down, and that Nohadon is who he became as a mortal. I think he is truly dead now, but I suspect he may have constructed an axon-for-axon copy of himself out of Honor's investiture, using it to replace himself as the vessel. This would likely not change Honor's tone and still make it indistinguishable from himself... but then it would also explain why Honor became more and more obsessed with Oaths over time. I think the copy lost its structure over time and became something akin to what the Sibling warns about - a shard with no vessel that has it's own sentience/awareness. I think that's why Honor kind of fell apart down the road and was so easily defeated by Odium. Agreed! She just pulled the classic "finding her destiny on the road to prevent it" move, and I'm frustrated that she was so dismissive of Renarin and Rlain's cautionary suggestions - she just brushed them off and said "no this is important and I'm going by instinct here, try to keep up" Like god damn Shallan take a breath and go stop Dalinar! The fact was, she wanted the perpendicularity opened for two reasons: 1. Bait for Mraize and Iyatil cause she is obsessed with 'besting' them and proving herself to them 2. She is so curious about why the GB's want to get BAM that she also now wants to go find BAM. She can't help it, and she was wanting to go along in there the whole time, just like Renarin called out. How Shallan actually thinks: Wheeeee look at us go!

This is my thought as well. He seemed to know what would happen if he collapsed the perpendicularity - he said he's been told it is quite spectacular. My guess (as stated above) is that part of the collapse will also involve somehow sucking everyone in close proximity into the Spiritual Realm as well. That's the only reason I can think of for why he would do it. It definitely makes it more dangerous for them, but he's game to cut ties with their Hansel and Gretel breadcrumbs / safety net to help them get back if that means he will get to enter the realm and find BAM.

Personally, I'm way more annoyed with Shallan in this case, feels more like her fault than Mraize's. Her 'instincts' gave the Ghostbloods the perfect setup. My guess is that the 'explosion' result of the collapsing perpendicularity might suck them all into the Spiritual Realm as well. I think Shallan, Renarin, and Rlain are going to have to navigate their way around the Spiritual Realm chasing Iyatil and Mraize while Dalinar and Navani also have their own journey through the realm looking for the truth about Honor's death and seeking his power. Agreed! Shallan's invasion of the GB's seemed to go way smoother than it should have, and then this initial test of the Spiritual Realm visions went way worse than I expected haha all my expectations are being subverted lol good job Brandon!

Right - an Unmade or even a 'god-spren' like the Sibling or the Stormfather (particularly the stormfather pre-Honor's death) is not a combination of power and vessel like a shard. The spren are power only, but it's just power that was left alone long enough to get up and start moving around. The Sibling points out how it's not too dangerous for spren lik them to form their own self-awareness and stuff because they aren't really that much power. But if a shard were to develop it's own sentience and personality and essentially form it's own vessel, that would be very dangerous because it would essentially have no ties to the physical world and would not have a good understanding of mortals. I personally think this may have happened with Honor's power - either that Tanavast copied himself and put his investiture copy in the Shard as a new vessel while giving up the power himself and going down to earth as Nohadon, or that the power has just spent enough time sitting alone in the spiritual realm to be 'awakened' to some degree already. In that case, it seems like someone will need to convince the power to let them take it up. For BAM specifically, I think it works more like a nahel bond or connection shenanigans. You can likely bond with BAM, but I doubt a mortal person could try and replace her the way someone can ascend to be the vessel of a shard.

@Dreamwa1ker @Zea mays But wait, didn't Sigzil get his Dawnshard directly from Hoid? And then gave it back to Hoid? I don't think Lift's Dawnshard would be the same as theirs, especially since her 'torment' (if it is one) seems to be more of compulsion to remain as she is/was, refusing to accept the changes in her body and in the world around her. It seems quite different from Sig and Hoid's inability to harm others.

I don’t think this is right. Yes, they do address that spren are bits of investiture that start walking around and riding on earrings, etc. but what I’m referring to is the warning from the sibling about leaving Honor’s power alone too long: I think it’s conceivable that Tanavast could have replaced himself with a copy by making a duplicate cognitive shadow of himself, then abdicated and left the power to rule itself, but with the expectation that his investiture construct of himself would hold itself together. But I think since the power he made ‘himself’ out of is not actually tied to the physical realm, it ended up coming undone and that’s why Honor got so obsessed with oaths at the end. It’s also feasible that no one would notice a change in the Honor’s tone and therefore would not detect the swap, since it was a copy of himself - axon for axon, but just made from investiture completely.

Seriously though, it really does feel like surgebinding gets super powerful or at least has the potential for that. Doesn’t Odium talk about how he chose this place so he could prepare the best warriors for his conquest of the rest of the cosmere? Perhaps this kind of stuff has to do with why?

I like this explanation a lot. I also think that there could be some sort of Fortune and Intent going on here. Shallan's double bond appears to also have given her a way to access Fortune and she has been able to do that with her drawings. I find this explanation by Kelek to be pretty useful on this topic. I wonder if once Shallan started glimpsing into the spiritual realm and seeking BAM, perhaps BAM was able to make a connection to her and so she keeps popping up here and there? I like the example of Vin's earring/spike giving her an extra boost of an ability. I also like how she explained that since she has two bonds, they are both pulling on her. I think this sort of "gravitation" as I think about it would make sense. Spren are pulled into the physical realm by their bond with a human, but when two spren are pulling on the human it could be enough to give them access to enter the cognitive realm at will. The double bond also appears to have given her access to glimpse the spiritual realm and draw upon Fortune, but I suspect that is more of a function of her having two cryptics specifically, whereas her ability to enter the cognitive realm might be more related to her having two bonds in general. Would a windrunner with two bonded honorspren be able to enter the cognitive realm? My thoughts based on what we know so far is yes, but that's just a theory.

God damn it, you might actually be on to something. I have never found this theory to have any real traction whatsoever.... until now. Lol I'm still opposed to it but I'll be keeping an eye out for any signs pointing this way. It does feel like Yelig Nar has gotten a decent amount of screen time already, though, a third victim would be a tiny bit repetitive.

Wow. This made me visualize a bit of what the Spiritual Realm experience is going to be like. I'm starting to see it almost like living various moments and accomplishing some task or something that then kicks you into a different time/place or something for another experience, each one crafted specifically around what your Intent is or who/what/where you are trying to get to eventually. Actually it's a little like inception, where reality could get confusing and you eventually could lose yourself if you aren't careful and ensure you can find your way out. Seems like this could get trippy, and I'm here for it!

Is it possible that Lift is a Dawnshard? When she meets with Cultivation, she asks not to change. She said that 'when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same, I want to stay me, not become someone else' Interesting parallel to the Command behind Rysn's Dawnshard - Change. It would make sense that there would be some Dawnshards in opposition to eachother - Change vs. Be/Remain/Exist or something like that? We don't know exactly what her boon/curse was - but I believe it's implied that her odd ability to generate lifelight through her metabolism is related to it. Could it be that her boon/curse was just to be given the Dawnshard with the commant to remain the same, along with a torment (perhaps her itching discomfort around the idea of everything changing around her or even her body changing?) - and then could some of the other oddities be explained by her bonding a spren while already being a dawnshard? (somethign Rysn is specifically instructed not to do) Is it possible that Tanavast created a copy of himself to replace himself as the vessel of Honor? We get a lot of warnings in these preview chapters about the dangers of investiture gaining its own sentience/sapience. Maybe this is what all the abdication stuff is about too. Perhaps Nohadan IS Tanavast. Not that they swapped per se, but Tanavast abdicated, and went on to live a full life and became a king and wrote a book? This would imply that the reason Honor started acting strangely and getting more and more obsessed with oaths is that the copy couldn't maintain itself for very long and eventually 'wore out' somehow? What is left of the power attached itself to the Stormfather to create an even odder amalgamation of spren/cognitive shadow/sliver thing when Odium attacked directly and 'splintered' the shard? Or perhaps when they find Honor's power they discover that it is self aware (still) and unwilling to give up it's own agency, and maybe it even prefers to be in the Spiritual realm instead of dealing with the phyiscal and cognitive realms very much?

I was thinking the same thing - like so far the GB's have been pretty effective and haven't had much that can be called a true loss. They even had Felt capture Restares and are going to get a ton of information from him. Since they are running off script and doing their own thing instead of following Kelsier's orders, I think this even turned out ok for them. They were able to get away from the most practiced and capable lightweaver who has two bonded spren and can even give her lightweavings solidity/substance and draw on fortune. I think Shallan's power creep has grown to the point where this type of outcome does not seem impossible by any stretch. Plus she still barely survived lol it didn't go as bad as I was expecting it to, but it wasn't what I would call easy or uneventful.

Hmm does it have to do with the nahel bond filling more of the cracks in the radiant's spirit web as the bond progresses further? That's what I have as my head canon but I can't find any WoB's about it right now. And in the back half of Stormlight they refer to Syl as the Ancient Mother instead of Ancient Daughter? Absolutely! It actually kind of feels like he is intentionally trying to give signs of multiple popular theories so that we are all even more confused lol props to Brando!

That's a good callout, that was before he realized the memories issue. But I still maintain that he was talking to Kaladin about it because Kaladin was hearing the voice of the wind. And honestly it makes sense to me - the Wind is now actively reaching out instead of passively observing. That kind of action would likely stir the Sibling and others to be more aware of the Wind and more likely to bring them up. ALSO - we know from earlier chapter headings that part of what allowed the Wind to be more active and to speak to men again was the transition of Taravangian ascending to Odium. Somehow that made a difference and we don't know why. So those complaints/concerns you have are being acknowledged on multiple fronts I think. Did you also catch this in Drehy's comments to Renarin? If that's not opening the door for spren to have romantic relationships with other people then I'm not sure what is.

Renarin as Odium? Does he align enough with the Intent there to actually hold that shard? Seems like he's one of the least likely candidates for that in my mind.

There seem to be a lot of warnings about the dangers of too much investiture becoming self-aware. Like a shard that is left alone too long and gains sentience.... is this foreshadowing what might happen at the end of the book? Or is it possible that when they try to access Honor's power it is too late and it already has too 'personified' too much (for lack of a better term)? Alternatively, do we know what BAM really is? Is she just a spren, which is basically personified investiture already, who was then corrupted by Odium? Would it be possible for BAM to have connected herself to Honor's power while they have been trapped together in the Spiritual Realm all this time, at least enough to the point where she would be able to take up Honor's power herself if freed from the gemstone? That would certainly be an interesting predicament.

I think it still makes sense in-world because the old gods are so old they have been basically inconsequential for ages now. They've even been replaced by the Stormfather, Sibling, and Nightwatcher. One of them 'left', one is dying and has been vaguely speaking too / interacting with / observing Kaladin, and one is probably hiding in the Horneater peaks or something. Also - I've been doing my re-read in tandem with these new chapters, and have been shocked by all the times that the Wind is referenced even in The Way of Kings. When Kaladin is in the 'zone' when fighting the description is that he becomes one with the wind, or that the wind and air warps around him, stuff like that. There is even a time when he is in the slave carts and drops his poison leaves on the floor of the cart, and then the wind comes through and blows them away.. which to me felt intentional now knowing about the old gods and Kaladin's connection to the Wind. Stuff like that happens all throughout each book and I've been impressed with the foreshadowing actually. I also think it would have been a little too much to try and incorporate the lore of the Wind and the other old gods earlier. There was already so much going on and there is so much in way more recent and still super ancient history that our characters are figuring out and trying to understand. Wit only really gets into the details about the Wind with Kaladin because he knows that Kaladin can hear the Wind. And after realizing that Odium has a new vessel who was able to best him and take some of his memories, he is grasping for any straws that he can. He isn't even hopeful that it will work though. So I think the whole Old Gods stuff is kind of coming up at an appropriate time as they reach for any possible solution.

So I understand you can lash yourself in specific directions and can lash other people or objects in the same way. BUT - can you lash an object with the intent that its gravitational force is specifically tied to another object or person? Sort of like a heat seeking missile. In practice, I think the simplest use case would be launching an arrow into the air but first lashing it towards the person you want it to hit. Not just in their general direction, but so that even if they move the arrow will adjust and move that direction. Do we know if this is possible? My gut says no just because I feel like we’d have seen this in practice already by now. I had this thought because I was wondering who would be the better and more dangerous person with a gun - a Windrunner/Skybreaker using their lashings to enhance their aim and firing power, or a steel pusher like Wax? Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this as well. Obviously if the radiants are able to lash things to make them lock on to a target then they are more dangerous for sure- way better aim that way.

This is interesting. It would be a less violent way for Sigzil to lose his bond to his Honorspren before bonding Aux. I'm not sure how/why it would be necessary though - it sounds like the power is available for anyone to take up, provided they can access the spiritual realm a "convince the power to accept" them

I feel obligated to brag that none of my theories survive more than about 2 weeks before I find or am presented with evidence that completely discredits them and makes them totally unfeasible.

Appreciate the concise and clear breakdown! Looks like this theory is quickly dying lol

Good points! I've just been made aware of the timing issues... I definitely need to take a closer look at the overall timeline of Roshar and what we know for certain of Nohadon's timeline and see what makes the most sense. Timeline issues aside, any point where Honor acts differently could be a sign of a swap. I'll keep digging lol Another great point! Only thing I could try to counter here is to say that this entire swap seems to be pretty secretive. Remember in the Prologue when one of the Heralds dies as Gavilar is dying? "They mustn't see. they mustn't know..." Could it be that Nohadon was pretending to be Tanavast and that he has continued to hide the secret as a CS merged with the SF? Although, for the sake of transparency, I did read a WoB that kind of makes me question the premise of this theory altogether: Looks like the dream with Nohadon might have been more like Dalinar shaping the visions to be what he needed to see instead of being an external force sending the vision to him?

I think Honor's cognitive shadow attached to the Stormfather specifically so that they could assist the new unchained bondsmith in forcing a merger of Odium and Honor's powers together, creating a combo shard like Harmony. I think the goal was to do this either in a way that would leave Odium's shard inhibited like Harmony's merger did for Ruin, or in a way that would make the shard's intent less dangerous to the Cosmere. But I think it backfires, and I think Taravangian ends up holding the shard of Justice/Wrath and wages war against all other shards. And I think he ends up with a much easier to control shard. IF that doesnt happen, then I suspect that Kaladin bonds the Wind, uses his new bondsmith powers to access the Spiritual realm, and then finds and takes up Honor because he "has to" to protect others, but not because he wants to at all. Either way Dalinar loses the contest of champions though.