CognitiveShadow

Just throwing in my recent two cents on this - I think that a merger of Devotion and Dominion could actually be Unity. The parent religion of Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth has a single core tenet - unity, of mind and of people. I think this is what Odium meant when he said 'we killed you' after Dalinar claimed to be Unity in OB.

This is the key question that Brandon has refused to answer and likely never will. Essentially, Kaladin either transformed into a Herald or he just willingly died so that a Herald copy of him could be created. There's no way to know for sure, and we also don't even know if the Beyond is an actual afterlife or just the end of existence.

I thought that was the entire point: Jasnah preached to Shallan that your confidence (and presenation of confidence in particular) is what gives you authority. She seems to have bought into that a little too much, and her hubris is what led her to engage in a debate with Odium instead of flipping the table. And then of course he pulled the rug out from under her and just bashed her character with any and all wrongdoings or inconstencies she has had with her espoused worldview. It's also ok for Jasnah to make a mistake. The whole thing going on here was Jasnah having her blinders pulled down and being shown her blind spots. We all have them, but the thing about blind spots is that we literally don't allow ourselves to recognize them. We actively and usually subconciously avoid them unless we are forced to confront them. When we do finally see them and we acknowledge their existence, it can shake and shatter our entire worldview. If you've ever experienced that, as I have, you'd recognize and connect with Jasnah on a very deep level. I actually found that scene to be very believable, impactful, and powerful from my perspective.

Yes. She made the only correct choice for a leader of a nation in her particular predicament.

Given that Iyatil makes an attempt on Amaram's life with a poisoned dart, it could be that she had a claim on Amaram for some reason. That would fit neatly as a reason why Mraize told her that his life belongs to another. They operate as hunters and respect someone else having a claim to be the one who hunts another person. It could also be a reference to Kaladin, but idk if the Ghostbloods have knowledge of Kaladin's past at that point? For Evi - I don't think this is possible for two reasons: Dalinar is also married to and in love with Navani, who is still alive at that time. Would her love be overridden by Evi's love? He has many people who he loves and who love him, but we've never seen the Harry Potter style of 'love' protecting someone from harm or anything like that. I don't think it fits within the mechanics of the Cosmere Brandon has said that he will not confirm if there actually is or is not an afterlife in the Cosmere. The Beyond is basically what we refer to as the next life or afterlife. It's an unprovable claim, and for all we know the people who stretch into the beyond just cease to exist entirely and their remaining investiture is sent to the Spiritual realm and recycled out through on or multiple perpendicularities. Even the shards can't reach into the beyond or gain any information about it. The idea of the 'god beyond' that we see in the Cosmere is something that I doubt ever gets confirmed in any kind of direct way. I think the language used here is pretty clear and literal - there was some sort of force preventing Taravangian from seizing hold of Dalinar at that time. He was claimed by another force/entity that prevented his power from interceding and stopping Dalinar from entering the Beyond. Most likely IMO is definitely Valor, but we will see what other clues and tidbits come out along the way!

In the State of the Sanderson at the end of last year he called out that Emberdark fulfillment will likely be more like fall 2025 instead. So it's been pushed back a little, but I think that's still the latest update. Hopefully we get word on a definitive date soon!

Fair points. I think it’s very reasonable to assume that Brandon’s religious worldview could influence the direction of the Cosmere, but I also think he has done a really good job of balancing multiple different religious perspectives, subverting them, and even pointing out flaws with dogmatic religious beliefs and control. Many of his stories include things that would be completely contrary to the LDS perspective and have even led to some conflict among active LDS believers who may not support him as strongly as they did in the past. I grew up LDS but am no longer a believer or a member of the organization. I’m very familiar with the ins and outs of LDS theology and philosophy. When it comes to monotheism, it’s a little bit complicated for Mormons. The standard belief is that God/Jesus/Holy Ghost are 3 distinct and different beings that work together in complete harmony/unison and are therefore one in ‘purpose’ without literally being the same. So no trinity - instead they call these three the godhead. They also believe the whole point of living on the earth is so that we can all progress and prove ourselves to eventually become like God himself. The idea truly is (despite what some Mormon apologists may claim) that men will become like God and will with their wife or wives create spirit children who will populate worlds without number that they then manage/run. And then the people on those planets worship them as the only god, with the promise that they can do the same thing and make the same progress. So then God (and eventually each of us) then continue to progress through the eternities by having our spiritual children become gods/exalted which therefore exalts us further, which therefore exalts our god further. So there is quite a lot of polytheistic understanding there, but with emphasis placed on one single god as the only relevant one for us at this time. So its actually more akin to Henotheism where you acknowledge the existence of multiple deities but only worship one… or 3 kind of So anyway, hope that helps provide context for LDS beliefs surrounding monotheism/polytheism. There is an argument to be made that Brandon would follow the emphasis on a single deity and try to bring all the shards back together as one single entity. But you could also make the argument that those shards could eventually be split into smaller parts whose power is held by a larger qty of people with less omnipotent powers/capabilities. But regardless, the point of my post was that the response Odium had at Dalinar calling himself Unity has not been explained directly, which is interesting because I’d have expected that to be made clear by the end of this last book, especially with Dalinar dying. And given the explanation of religions on Sel and their history and the emphasis on Unity from the parent religion of the two prominent ones we see in Elantris, I think it’s very possible that Odium’s reaction was a reference to the fact that he/his shard’s power (they) had killed Unity already.

Ok. So we all know about Dalinar opening up a perpendicularity in Oathbringer and saying “I am Unity” to Rayse/Odium, who then freaks out and says “We killed you!” Popular explanations for this: We = combo and Rayse and Odium, meant to be a callout to the growing divide between the shard’s power and vessel. Odium is referring to how they killed Honor and Dalinar wa downing Honor’s perpendicularity. I think this is a pretty plausible explanation We = the group of 17 that killed Adonalsium, meaning that Dalinar’s claim as Unity had echoes of Adonalsium vibes. Combined with the idea that Nohadon could be some aspect of Adonalsium or the original Vessel’s cognitive shadow or something. I get it, but I’m not sold. Now, what about a new way of looking at this? We know that ROdium killed a few other vessels and splintered their shards. Devotion and Dominion specifically were stuffed into the cognitive realm and created the Dor. Is it possible that Devotion and Dominion were combined together as Unity?? And is that why Rayse has the reaction that he did at Dalinar’s statement? Here are my reasonings: The parent religion of Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (Shu-Keseg) had a central tenet of unity of all mankind, specifically the unity of “mind” The two religions split off with one focusing on dominion and the other focusing on devotion. Does that give precedent for their combination being focused on Unity? Shu-Keseg followers believed in a single omnipotent god named Dashu - not two separate gods Dominion and Devotion are based on yin and yang which is a paradoxical unity Not convinced yet? Harmony is the combination of Ruin and Preservation, which are supposedly opposing intents. We know that Devotion and Dominion have polarization effects on each other… I don’t think it would be outlandish for the combined intents to be held together as Unity. Dominion as Unity of nations and Unity of people. Devotion as Unity of heart and Unity of purpose. What if they merged their shards into one singular shard and held it together as two joint forces? Ok so if the overall premise here is true, then when Dalinar did some crazy rust and called himself Unity (not saying he literally ascended to Unity and absorbed those shards or anything like that, just that he was aligned with that specific Intent) it gave Rayse and Odium some PTSD and a call back to the whole interaction he had with Unity/Devotion/Dominion when he splintered them and stuffed them into the cognitive realm. The additional question is whether the Dor (Unity?) is becoming self aware and perhaps reaching out and asking Dalinar to “Unite them”….? I’ve mainly been of the opinion that Valor is in Roshar making waves, but could this be possible? Feel free to prove me wrong on all counts

I think brain-type things and religious/spiritual motivations can actually have a lot of overlap. Again, from my hyper religious background, as a kid I developed an obsession with obedience and making sure I did everything exactly right and was always panicked when I didn't know what the 'right' choice was. I didn't/don't have OCD naturally, but that environment and the nurture aspect of my development (as opposed to the nature parts) eventually led to me develop religious scrupulosity. Which is something I identify with Szeth on for sure - maybe more than I'd like to haha but my point is that it's still very possible that Szeth's brain-type and religious/spiritual motiviations were both present and intertwined in a very complex way. Since leaving the religion I was born into and developing more of my own self and my own internal moral guidings, I've learned to shed most/a lot of the religious compulsions/shame/guilt complex stuff that I was dealing with. It's still difficult and I'm learning to piece my self-confidence and self-love back together in a healthy way, but it's not easy to leave a mind set that is so black and white. Perhaps that is a large part of why I enjoy seeing the examples of nuance in WaT compared with the black/white oathkeeping perspective. My former self identifies strongly with Szeth and the skybreakers and my new self can recognize many different aspects of each character and order of knights radiant that I connect to in different ways and under different circumstances. So I'm learning how to embrace the nuance in my life instead of trying to ignore it and outsource my decision-making to other people/organizations. So obviously coming from that perspective, this book and the way the series is headed definitely exciting and very very interesting for me personally. But I can understand how it would not be as enjoyable if I was still in more of that 'black and white is always right' mindset that I used to have.

This thread led me to my new crack-pot theory for the future / end of the Cosmere: 1. Honor (as part of Retribution) continues to develop more sapience and awareness, learns what is truly Honorable and eventually understands context/nuance 2. Honor develops it's own true Identity and rejects the Taravangian (at some point when T does something stupid that leaves him vulnerable to lose both Shards) 3. Honor stands in as the new vessel of Retribution, with stronger emphasis on Honor's Intent 4. Honorbution goes through the cosmere absorbing all of the splintered investiture from prior shards, eventually sucks up and takes on all of the other Shards, becoming Adonalsium re-formed with no human/mortal vessel No, it isn't. Highspren don't look like that. It has to be the Wind. Holy rust I'm definitely looking closer into this - I thought baseline assumption was that this blurb was included to imply that Nale was in fact still bonded to his spren.... but if this is not the case it's extremely interesting Edit to add: am I unable to say "rust" here? It translated to rust lol Edit again to add: yep! can't swear apparently, is this new? stormin wild, man

It's probably more obvious to people who have been more active in the fandom and on various forums over the past few years. The Syladin ship has been going around for a while and got especially prominent around RoW I think. There was a big debate about whether that type of ship would be ok or if there would be any issues about their mutual dependence on eachother for sapience/surge binding abilities, questions about Syl's mental age and whether it would be appropriate, etc. Pretty much all of the major (and I think valid) concerns over that relationship were addressed directly throughout wind and truth: 1. Kaladin POV explicitly stating that Syl had never appeared as a child, that she had always been an adult woman, just that she had been child-like at times with her curiousity as she was regaining her memories, adjusting to the physical realm, etc. (to me, this was one of the most blatant 'author responds directly to hot issue w/in fandom with canonized clarification' things I've ever seen) 2. Regular callouts on Kaladin noticing her physical appearance (particularly when she was full sized) that were not common during the earlier books (specifically noticing her chest moving while she mimics breathing) 3. More physical contact - resting heads, holding hands, extended eye contact 4. Emphasis on Syl being her own person and showing more of her own independence and maturity 5. Many conversations with Kal and Syl that end with a lingering silence or a cryptic/unclear comment that leaves a lot left unsaid, which is very reminiscent of the typical 'friends who are on the verge of becoming more than friends' trope: Syl saying she finally has a home and Kal asks if it's the tower and she says 'in a way' or something, Syl hesitating and making eye contact with him before taking his outstretched hand as they take flight, conversation where they talk about how perfect/imperfect eachother are and everything, etc. 6. The dance scene. I agree that without the context of all the other stuff going on throughout the book this scene could be viewed as fairly platonic, but given the points above, this scene kind of sealed it for me and (in my opinion) made it absolutely clear that their relationship was headed in a romantic direction My suspicion is that Brandon either wanted to give a good foundation for it before really going all in on it later on in the back half or that he wanted to tease it in a way that gives him plausible deniability if the fanbase were to pick up on the signs and the reaction was overwhelmingly negative. So far, the reactions I've seen have primarily been either "yay, I was hoping that would happen" or "I didn't like it but I'm now convinced Brandon will be able to do it in a way that works". Therefore, I do anticipate this relationship to continue moving in a romantic direction. And if it does not, I personally feel that all of the points above except for Syl's emphasis on developing independence and the dance scene should have been removed before publication. There's no other reason to include all of those bread crumbs, especially when many of them are clear responses to the major issues the fanbase has debated regarding this ship. (As an aside, I don't think the fact that male/female non-romantic relationships being a real and valid thing have any bearing on whether Syl/Kal should be romantic with eachother. Brandon has been very clear that he tries to channel his characters and let them make their own decisions, so if he felt that it was heading that direction I would expect him to just let it happen. There is tons of time left in the Cosmere to have some great examples of relationships between men and women that are purely platonic but still close and intimate)

Wrath and Justice were the two that I had seen proposed most often ahead of the book release when discussing what a combination of those two shards would be. I actually like Retribution though. It feels like the right interpretation Justice/Wrath that (a) Taravangian would take and (b) the current Honor intent would lean towards. As Honor (the shard/power itself) continues to learn and change due to the intended Lesson that Dalinar gave it, I could see the guiding/inherent Intent of that investiture to start to lean away from an obsession with oaths and more towards what we typically consider to be acting with Honor. That slight shift could be enough to gradually turn Retribution into something more like Justice. Which is still a dangerous intent and has a lot of potential to be a villainous figure, regardless of who holds the shard. Part of the point of the whole setting of the Cosmere is that none of the shards is inherently good or evil necessarily - they are all likely to be negative forces since they don't have the balance of the other shardic intents to keep their own intent in check.

Oooh and maybe that is what helps Sazed gain more control over his intents - the excess Ruin investiture that is filtering back into him could be siphoned off into Kelsier instead. It would create a weaker danger since Kelsier would not be as influenced by the Ruin Intent due to the relatively small amount of Ruinous investiture he holds as an Avatar maybe? And then Harmony becomes whatever an imbalance of the two powers (with more preservation than ruin) would be called... Discord, and they love him for it?

Agreed. A major theme in all Cosmere works is that none of the shards are truly good or truly evil. They are all parts of the same whole, and they are each incomplete without the balance of the other shards guidance/influence. Each has it's own intent that drives it like a compulsion, ignoring the other intents as even factors to consider. Honor by itself can be horrific: honor killings, for example. In the Stormlight archive specifically, Brandon started by giving us the 'good guys' and then has slowly flipped the narrative one piece at a time to show us that those good guys weren't always the good guys, and sometimes it's more of a matter of perspective. You have two groups - humans and singers - who have been fighting a war for generations. Each side has immortal parties who typically run the show and continue the conflict in the same cycle. The people who are not immortal and have not been involved in the conflict for millenia are understandably not inclined to give their lives to this conflict. Especially when they learn that they are actually the invaders who took over the land and enslaved the other group. Brandon is literally putting the nuance on display. Even in the beginning when it is more 'black and white', there were always little things like Kaladin feeling it was wrong to fight the parshendi. Little tidbits of doubt that Brandon planted along the way. We are exploring a theme of the value of oaths and a question of whether it is more honorable to keep an oath and therefore create a negative outcome or to break an oath in order to bring about a better outcome. It's a study, an opportunity to consider hypotheticals and to think deeply. How boring would this series be if it was just a black and white 'oaths are always good and we must always keep our ideals no matter what'?

I like this idea a lot!

Right, but at least that is close. A Herald like Nale or Kaladin who have shardplate, shardblade, honorblade/spear, and the herald's speed run skills and whatever other skills they have... like they'd put up a good fight and TLR would have a tough time with them. I don't think Wax gives Kaladin a tough time at all. Even shooting at him from long distance... like it wouldn't actually do anything. Kaladin would fly around and eventually close in on Wax and it would be over before Wax could put in his earring and ask Harmony why he let him go up against a herald in a fight.

Wax would not survive long: Kaladin speed-runs at Wax (new herald skills on full display), sending any and all objects he can touch along the way hurtling towards wax with triple lashings. Wax is forced to duck and run and is then quickly stabbed through the face with two spears - Syl and Kal's new herald spear. Are we going to bother trying to figure out a way for Wax to maybe win? If he were to get his hands on the Kandra's cache of atium before Elend and crew burned that up, maybe he'd have a shot... but even with atium I think Kaladin lays a beat down on him. Hell, Wax could shoot Kaladin with thug-stopping rounds and he'd just heal and keep going anyway. One needs only look at the absolute carnage that Taln left behind in his off-screen-taking-the-war-into-his-own-hands moment in WaT to see that any 1:1 fight against a herald who is actually trying (which we honestly haven't really seen in action yet) is pretty much an easy bet. Now, a Herald vs the Lord Ruler in a no holds barred fight? That one would get interesting, and I'd potentially lean on the side of the Lord Ruler. But Wax just doesn't have what it takes.

Do we think Rashek was an anti-hero? I'd go more with anti-villain for him while Kelsier would get an anti-hero title.

Yeah I don't disagree there - for sure some people (particularly those two) will make that assumption. I was just saying he didn't just vanish. So the default assumption will have to be that he died, but people who care to dig into what really happened will have some clues pointing to the truth

I think there is still room for this - we've seen times when Kaladin has been given special reverence from people and even times when he has been a symbol to people at large. Two major examples are below: Kaladin and Shallan in the Chasms - Bridge 4 knows he will come back even when everyone thinks he is dead. They have faith that he will survive and come back because he always does. They were unbothered by everyone else's skepticism and even used their free time to stand watch and wait for his return RoW & Kaladin saving the tower - A significant following was garnered and people even drew shash glyphs on their foreheads to represent their belief/faith in Kaladin to save them I think it's interesting to think about how those previous experiences could develop over the next 10 years (on Roshar at least). I wouldn't be surprised if there are still people who think Kaladin will come back somehow and kind of build some faith around him - even if it is just as a symbolic representation of belief that someone will always step in to protect when it is needed. Bridge 4 members in particular may just outright reject the idea that Kaladin is dead. Moash's reaction to this news would be interesting as well. I'm most curious about Lirin though. My little crack theory/prediction is that Lirin continues Kaladin's work of kicking of therapy care in the medical world, and the people who take on that work/profession may even get shash tattoos in rememberance of him or something. And all that is to say that I would not be shocked if there is some level of worship and religous development built around Kaladin while he is gone - even if people don't know that he is a herald now. But once he returns... well I don't think the herald worship will be quite what it used to be now that the general populous has a better understanding of what Heralds are/were and all that jazz But the did find his body after right? He left that behind cause he had to die at first. And I don't think the assumption was that Szeth would have to die in order to become a herald

I'm aware - I was not referring to splintering the shards but splitting them into two usable shards that can be held by two different vessels. I realize that would likely require using dawnshards or some other process we don't know about. The post just made me think in the other direction: if a shard were to be divided into two different ones, which shard might be most likely to (excluding the ones that have already merged two of the original 16)? Is that more clear? Same question as the original post here but reversed. Just a for funsies, unserious inquiry

I am fully subscribed to the theory going around that: 1. Nohadon is either an avatar or servant/supporter of Valor 2. Valor has been hiding 'behind enemy lines' on Roshar and very subtly and secretly making an impact. This is why Valor is nowhere on Taravangian's radar and undetectable. 3. Valor is the extra shard represented by the 4th moon and other references to a 4 tone on Roshar 4. Valor's influence is referenced when Taravangian kills Rayse and he talks about feeling a surge or courage and similar things 5. Valor is the one who claimed Dalinar and protected him from Retribution, allowing him to pass peacefully into the beyond without being snatched up by big T - Nohadon (either Valor presenting herself as Nohadon or Nohadon just acting on behalf of Valor herself) gave Dalinar the nudges he needed at just the right time to get us to the final results in WaT, so Dalinar was slowly forming a bond/connection with Valor by seeking that connection and guidance. So that protection came as a benefit of following Valor's guidance for so long 6. Valor is the warm feeling that Dalinar feels, not the 'god beyond' (Brandon has repeatedly said he won't touch what is in the beyond, if anything is). That connection (initiated through study of the book Nohadon wrote under Valor's guidance) is what leads Dalinar to believe that there is something more than Honor/Almighty, that they weren't left to their own devices even though the Almighty is dead Could all be garbage, but I think it's a sweet theory that so far seems to fit in a very fun way

Follow up question - which will be the first of the original 16 shards to get split into two different ones??

I just feel like an aspect that many peopl eare overlooking here is that Roshar has a magic system (or had, anyway, up to this point) that includes self-progression ideals to help guardrail and prevent people from becoming too powerful and destroying the planet. To me, that is the in-world reason why there is so much emphasis on personal growth and development. That is why people are forced to confront their self-doubt, or their depression, or the way they lie to themselves about their past. If they don't confront those things, they will not progress on their path to gain more power/abilities and therefore be able to help contribute to saving the planet from an evil god. Does Kaladin actually create perfect therapy and instantly heal people? No - actually I read it as someone who didn't really know what they were doing but was really trying and in a very clunky way was able to use lessons he had learned from this 'magical progression system' to help get others to recognize a few key issues that they have and need to change. As I saw it, all Kaladin's therapy sessions accomplished was getting these people to decide that they are going to try and do things differently. That they would be willing to start the journey of healing. He still has a lot of progress to make himself. Szeth is still pretty broken. Nale and Ishar got their Odium corruption purged and were forced to confront some realities they'd been ignoring. Plus let's remember that investiture/magic stuff does play a part in the both the damage and the healing, and it can help speed some of this up.

You can also have brown eyes that are considered light eyes. Or blue eyes considered dark eyes. As I understand it, it's not about the color specifically, but the shade of that color.