CognitiveShadow

To say that it was most likely a direct reference to action being taken or prevented by the God Beyond, and then to say in the next breath that we don’t know and will never know if they exist… seems to be a direct contradiction in my opinion. If what prevented Retribution from seizing Dalinar’s cognitive shadow in that moment was the god beyond, that means we have clear evidence for the god beyond existing. And not only existing, but being able to interfere directly with events in the 3 realms of the Cosmere. Because we know the existence of a ‘god beyond’ will never be confirmed, I think we can completely rule out the possibility of this god being responsible for Dalinar being allowed to slip into the beyond. Similar to how we can completely rule out Evi as being the one who has claimed him. This 3rd party must be one of the other shards or Adonalsium somehow. It could be protections leftover by Cultivation due to his connection and history with her. Or it could be another shard like Valor/Reason (though for many other reasons I think Reason can be ruled out as well). The only remaining alternative is that Adonalsium (as a cognitive shadow or remnant sliver or being of some unknown kind) intervened and allowed Dalinar to pass into the beyond or oblivion or whichever you believe to be the case. Nohadon is, in my opinion, likely involved. But I don’t think this Nohadon is just a regular person or a spiritual realm figure bound to Dalinar because he read the book. There were outside forces at play that interacted directly with and gave guidance to Dalinar - without his permission or seeking such guidance. For that reason I believe Nohadon to be either an aspect of Adonalsium in some form that we don’t yet know, or to be a sliver/avatar/agent of some kind for a 4th shard, most likely Valor. I think it’s possible it could be Cultivation but from Brandon’s latest interview it seems that she was not as in control of her plans as people have been believing. Regardless of which of the above options is the responsible party, I agree that they were only protecting Dalinar’s cognitive shadow from being forced to serve Retribution for eternity and allowed him to pass to the beyond. He is gone for good and not coming back.

I am starting to be convinced that Shallan's personalities go beyond regular DID. Her condition is supernatural in nature due to her mother being a Herald, as we see her other (full) siblings manifesting other symptoms of heraldic madness as well. Veil seems to be a little too good at espionage, street life experience, etc. to just be the integration of Tyn's training over that short period of time. People have theorized that maybe Shallan was actually trained as a child by the Ghostbloods or her Mother or something and that she channels those memories/lessons through Veil, but I don't think that makes sense since she has already (sort of) reintegrated with Veil. It actually is quite similar to what Shai does with her soul stamps - she rewrites her spirit web in a way that gives her memories and experience that she doesn't actually have, making her an expert at one thing or another. It fools her body/soul into believing it has lived a different life and it manifests that phyically, mentally, etc. We also see Shallan 'be Drehy' and suck in the stormlight that he lashed her with in WaT. This is wild. Because he did the lashing, only he should be able to draw that stormlight in. It's tied to his identity. Does Shallan have the ability to rewrite her own spirit web, even to the point of altering her Identity (capital I)? Is this basically the same as being able to soul stamp herself through her own cognition/thinking? Or is this perhaps more similar to what Vasher and other Returned do by using mental gymnastics to control their appearance based on how they view themselves? It could also be explained that way - that perhaps Shallan (as a child of a cognitive shadow) also has a special connection to investiture and the other realms that lets her alter herself mentally/physically/spiritually?

Maybe not super related but the parent religion of the two Dominion/Devotion based religions in Sel had a core tenet focused on Unity. I think there could be a larger story tied to their destruction at the hands of Odium (potentially a merger of their shards into one Unity before he destroyed them or something?), and that could be why he says "we killed you" when Dalinar says he is Unity...

Once again, we aren't talking about the physical death and what the cognitive shadow experiences as an 'afterlife'. We also aren't talking about a character's beliefs impacting what their experience is when they die. We are talking about the Beyond - that's the only place that a true/standard afterlife experience could be. And we have no reliable indication that this is the case. But my main point of response here is that @epl2 and I are talking about readers who believe in an afterlife in the real world and whether that makes them more likely to believe that the Cosmere would have an afterlife. My suspicion would be that there is a correllation, but I also think @epl2 is correct: observing the Cosmere as a fictional world and trying to determine whether in-world the characters get to experience a true afterlife is easier to consider from an objective perspective than when considering the real world. Does that make more sense? Kelsier believing in an afterlife or not has no bearing on these questions. And Kelsier (as a cognitive shadow) popping into the cognitive realm after his ties to the physical realm are severed also has no bearing on the actual existence of an afterlife (or not) for characters in the Cosmere.

I think I pretty much align with everything you had to say here, thanks for sharing! I think this is the most likely scenario as well. I think it would also be interesting to gauge how a person’s real life outlook on the existence or nonexistence of an afterlife influences whether they think there is one in the Cosmere too

I guess I just think it logically falls into a few general options. I tried to add in various extra details like reuniting with people to capture a wider swath of variables that people might think of, while hoping the readers would be able to read each option and determine which general bucket most closely aligns with their personal head cannon. Now if something has a very specific headcannon they can share that in the comments, but it likely falls under one of those 3 general variables already. Even the variables you called out fit within those 3 or don’t apply due to the distinction of stretching to the beyond

By asking what happens after the character dies and passes into the beyond I was working off of the assumption that the cognitive shadow is still the same person by my definition. So that's why I wasn't including that distinction. My earlier response using Kaladin as an example was intended to explain that I don't consider this as a variable. I also don't think the +/- karma or +/- reuniting with people are as relevant to the core questions here (my assumption is that if we are saying there is an afterlife, we are implying there is a way to reunite with others who have passed, and karma is not something that is really addressed in the books in any meaningful way so it's also not a relevant part of the existence or nonexistence of an afterlife). Additionally, some of those points are only valid/relevant if there is a Beyond, which cuts down how many realistic options there are. Wouldn't make sense to say there is no Beyond but the people there can influence the Cosmere. So I don't see how it gets up to 10-16 realistic possibilities. I'm also not trying to create a complete list of all possible options, so much as trying to start a conversation going that can ultimately help us narrow ourselves down to the most likely answer based on the things we do know and the hints we get in the books. Recognizing of course that Brandon is intentionally trying not to give any clear indication either way, but also understanding that the world he has built and the implications of the most likely answers can come together and paint a decent picture about what the answer 'should' be, at least for the sake of consistency and to fit thematically as well. I've tried to summarize more completely what my stance is on the main factors and why I lean the way I do. I'm definitely more certain on the earlier parts, hence the reason I framed the question the way I did. But the last half I'm fairly split on, if slightly leaning towards the lack of an afterlife: When a Cosmere character physically dies, their spiritweb continues existing for a period of time, usually very short. But if they have excess investiture they can continue persisting longer, just without any connection to the physical realm. This shadow is still that person, and if they hold or were holding enough investiture to expand their soul/spiritweb, they are able to continue persisting/existing indefinitely Argument for them continuing to exist as the same person: they hold the same memories, identity, and continuity of conciousness that the character had when holding a physical body. It is possible that the true 'soul' of the person dies/disappears when the physical body dies, but I don't accept that on the grounds that it makes Kaladin's transition to immortality actually mean that he sacrificed himself into nonexistence (or an afterlife if you believe in that) so that an investiture copy of him could take his place and be a herald that would make (hopefully) the same decisions he would have made. When the person's spiritweb + any excess investiture can't continue sustaining itself, it stretches into the Beyond. No one knows anything about this because it is... well, unknowable. But I believe the most simple explanation is that the Beyond is unknowable because there is nothing to know. It is simply part of the cycle of investiture that once the physical body dies, it can't (typically) sustain itself and it is then dispersed. As the investiture loses all identity and any 'polarization' and form, it then gets absorbed back into the spiritual realm and is recycled the same as any other investiture This is where it gets harder to form much of an argument - whether or not the character then continues on into an undetectable new realm or dimension can't be proven or disproven because it's totally undetectable and unobservable by anyone in-world. We know that Shards can't reach into the beyond and can't bring people back. Sazed even healed the physical bodies of Vin and Elend but was not able to bring them back to life since they had slipped off into the beyond. The question of Identity comes into play here - is Identity creatable? Can a Shard arrange investiture in such a way that it creates a spiritweb copy of Vin or Elend? Or is Identity more unique and special than that? Memories too - can a shard recreate all of Vin's memories? That could be what we saw with Retribution and the Blackthorn Sprenlinar.. but he question remains - could Taravangian do that at any time, or was he only able to do that because Dalinar himself placed copies of his own memories into that being? I think I lean that way, but it could also be that as various shards interact in different ways with the minds of the characters, they each would have different levels of capability here. Does it make sense that there is an afterlife for the characters after they slip into the beyond? I don't think so - and the only reason I can use here is that I fully agree with what Jult had to say below:

I mean we can also throw in whether or not there are palm trees there but I'm less concerned with those kinds of imaginary details. I'm more interested in what makes the most logical/consistent sense in-world based on what we know of the universe and what we have seen of people dying and their shadows being left behind. I was viewing this more along the lines of whether there even is more to existence after death, when that 'death' is (when body dies or when cognitive shadow stretches to the beyond), and what the implications of each possibility has for the stories. I strongly lean towards there being no afterlife, as the idea of Kaladin being straight up murdered by Ishar in the process of becoming a herald doesn't seem to fit within the intended mechanics of the Cosmere. So I lean towards accepting that cognitive shadows are still the same persisting entity that was 'living' before their body failed, since they hold the memories, identity, and continuity of conciousness that the original character held. Agreed that we will never get definitive answers here, but I think we have enough to consider what would be most likely. The reuniting with others is more so out of the general purpose of expecting an afterlife - that you and the people who have died before you will continue on living somehow, ideally in a way that you can reconnect and continue to interact. It's also possible that (irl or in the cosmere) people die and get sent into a purple box for eternity where they see nothing but purple and only hear continuous brown noise... but that's a less useful thought experiment I think.

So the topic of what happens in the Cosmere after people die, especially after passing into the Beyond, appears to be something Brandon does not want to answer. He has said that he wants to avoid a direct answer about whether there actually is an afterlife in the Cosmere or not, instead only showing the various beliefs and viewpoints that each character has and is motivated by. I'm curious what the fandom thinks about this topic though. We know that the Shards don't actually understand anything about the Beyond - they speculate here and there but usually with motiviations to manipulate other characters. No one comes back from the Beyond, but Dalinar (as an example) is convinced that there is some God Beyond who is at the very least influencing things in the 3 realms. I see 3 possibilities - 1. Characters die and go to an unknown afterlife called the Beyond, where they and/or some God Beyond (Adonalsium's soul or somethign more?) ARE able to influence the 3 realms 2. Same as 1 except there is NO influence in the 3 realms from the people and/or God in the Beyond 3. No afterlife - characters just stop existing in the normal sense of the word when their physical body dies, and their investiture/spirit web (particularly if they have excess investiture) continues to persist for a while if it can. But ultimately when that investiture stretches to the Beyond it is simply losing all identity and dispersing or being recycled back into the spiritual realm, where it will eventually pop back out in a shard or in their shardpool or split up among various shards/pools... Let me know if you think of another alternative possibility and which ones you think are most likely the case!

I don't think we will ever get this person to understand what we are trying to say. They seem to be convinced of their own superiority and our ignorance to their particular thought patterns. I thought your explanations were quite clear and easy to follow. It seems to me that this person is trying to set hard lines about how words can be used, suggesting that their frame of reference is the only correct perspective. We're beating a dead horse at this point, perhaps the cognitive shadow of a dead horse

Especially when you take into account that the protagonists we are viewing the world through are also being introduced to and influenced by people who are from completely different planets/cultures and who speak completely different languages.... like of course therapist is not a word that Roshar has or knows... but Kaladin learns it from Wit and starts to use it. Same with Lift and 'rust' that she learns from Vasher. The cultural pressure cooker that they are in pluse the influence of outside forces is bound to have an impact.

Two things: This is not earth. This is Roshar. The culture is different, the people are different, the languages are different. Many words used in the Stormlight Archive carry a slightly different or additional meaning when used in the books due to these factors. Brandon operates on the premise that these books are originally in a different language, and have been translated to modern english to try and convey what the experience was like from the perspective of the POV characters in a way that is totally familiar and immersive to us today. And then that english version is translated to other languages with the same goal. The word Heretic in this case seems to be a term used by the Vorin religion to describe non believers. Kind of like an an Infidel - typically seen used by people of the Islamic faith when referring to non-believers. The technical meaning is basically just unfaithful, but it has developed a specific meaning that operates as a bit of a title descriptor applied to a person. A Heretic is someone who believes in or practices heresy, which is defined as "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine". I personally think this lines up pretty damn well with Jasnah and the Vorin church - she has many beliefs and opinions contrary to the orthodox religious doctrine. She is also quite vocal about those beliefs. Dalinar gets the same treatment when he announces that the Almighty is dead - very contrary to the orthodox religious doctrine. So they brand him as a heretic. Clearly this is standard procedure for the Vorin church and a particularly intentional use of the word which carries more weight. As someone who spent 30 years as a devoted Mormon (the church Brandon belongs to) there are a lot of terms like "Inactives" or "Apostates" or "Investigators" and I could go on. In religious communities there are so many terms that an outsider might be confused by, and it makes sense that Vorinism would have their own lingo and jargon that non-Vorin followers could easily be confused by. Look at the language used by other religions in Brandon's other books and you will notice that they each have their own emphasis, verbage, etc. which identifies them as separate and distinct. He does a great job of keeping them all separate from each other and linguistic tools like focusing on Heresy is one way that Vorinism is distinguished. You also seem to be under the impression that your own personal use and understanding of the term Heretic limits how any other people or groups can/do use and understand it. I think it is helpful to recognize that the author is in charge and the language they use is usually pretty intentional. Otherwise you need to start analyzing what Brandon means by Intent, Investiture, Avatars, etc. because those meanings are quite different in the cosmere than the usual use on Earth in english-speaking regions. All that said, I also just don't think his use of Heretic is even incorrect or outlandish by any stretch. Great point - Roshar uses Chicken as the word for all different kinds of birds. Roshar is the name of their continent, planet, and solar system. They are known to not be very varied in their vocabulary lol

Alright, new headcannon adopted!

Ah, yep - gotcha, that makes sense!

I thought Brandon confirmed it was an intentional thing though?

Yeah the problem is that would have to be part of her act, so for this theory to work we have to assume that she is pretending those things in an effort to make Hoid (and potentially anyone else who may get the message) believe that Valor is not on Roshar and would not intervene. Like Endowment would be in cahoots with Valor and acting as her alabi and distraction. So it’s a stretch probably but I still kinda like the idea haha

Just throwing another thought out here though - what if Harmony is telling the truth and Valor does want to talk to Hoid, but Valor is not able to connect with/ communicate with him while on Roshar without revealing herself or her actions? And maybe Endowment is worried about Hoid trying to contact Valor and accidentally revealing her? So then she would encourage him not to contact her and to leave her alone, along with a message clearly trying to say that Valor is anywhere but Roshar and definitely not invovled in anything? hmmmm

I can get behind that, makes sense to me!

I've wondered if perhaps Valor and Endowment are working together - hence Vasher and Nightblood being on Roshar? Endowment does say to Hoid: Although the claim at the end that Valor and Endowment are both maintaning their isolation is a little bit of an issue for the Valor on Roshar theory.. but if Endowment is working indirectly through Vasher/Nightblood and Valor is working indirectly through Nohadon... maybe there is still an argument for that? Her refusal to interact with Hoid could also be an indication that she doesn't want to reveal herself to anyone on Roshar specifically perhaps?

Why have the other shards not been able to find Valor at all? Taravangian was super freaked out by it and did not understand why he could not detect her. That seems like a pretty relevant and heavy handed hint that something important is going on with Valor. I also think it makes sense with the pacing of the story - we just barely hit the halfway mark of the Stormlight Archive. There are still another 5 books, and SpartanBrigade and I have shown a few different bread crumbs that could very well be hints at the possibility (even likelihood) of a 4th Shard interfering on Roshar and that the 4th Shard would have to be Valor if that is the case. I think it would track with the way Brandon leaves little hints that don’t stand out until we get the major reveal, and then when we go back on a reread we realize it fits perfectly throughout the rest of the earlier books. The Wind is a good example - we had no idea there was more to the Wind in the first 4 books other than wind spren and their connection to the windrunners. But if you go back and read, the Wind is always doing weird stuff around Kaladin - including blowing away his poisonous leaves when he’s in the slave cart. Little nudges here and there to help ensure that Kaladin would get to the point that he needed to be so the Wind could have him become a herald and save the spren. But if someone had predicted the Wind being an actual entity made from Adonalsiums investiture before the shattering, I’d have thought they were reaching haha

Totally agree! I’ve seen others speculate that it would be Reason because that might be a more suitable intent for Nohadon, but for the reason you shared above I agree that Reason does not seem to be totally missing in the same way that Valor is. Plus, I believe Reason is confirmed to be the shard that went off on their own to try and just survive and stay away from all the conflicts which is completely opposed to what we are speculating this 4th shard would be doing on Roshar

What evidence do we have that Valor is not on Roshar? I actually think it would make sense for a 4th shard to be involved on Roshar, and they would need to be either Reason or Valor who Taravangian can’t locate for some reason. I think it makes sense for Valor to be hiding behind enemy lines and trying to arrange things the way they turned out at the end of WaT. It was a very bold plan to let Odium take Honor as well. Then there is the 4th moon reference and the reference to a surge of bravery and courage that Taravangian feels when Rayse visits which is what gives him the courage to actually follow through with his plan and attack Rayse with Nightblood. Dalinar would have built a connection with Valor over time through his study of the Way of Kings which Nohadon wrote (assuming Valor had a hand in Nohadon’s creation of the book, which I think has themes of Valor throughout), and from the conversations/special visions with Nohadon that that Stormfather is completely unaware of. Each of those visions led to Dalinar choosing to follow the suggested path from Nohadon, which arguably gives him more of a connection and alignment with the Shard. Cultivation also seemed to be caught off guard by Odium taking up Honor as well. That move put her in particular danger/risk and she fled Roshar completely.

Wow, love how you put this. Definitely agree! Definitely an understandable concern! I would be disappointed if things ended in that spot as well, but I'm hopeful that Brandon will continue to subvert expectations and explore new and interesting ways for the idea of what 'god(s)' could or should be to society. As far as traditional/orthodox LDS beliefs and viewpoints go, most people I've talked to would classify him as 'nuanced' or 'progressive'. I wouldn't dare speak for him personally, as belief and religious practice are super personal - just from his writing and the things he tends to promote as good/wholesome are sometimes in opposition with orthodox beliefs and practices. So he doesn't appear to just hold on to dogma for the sake of holding on to dogma. I guess what I'm saying is that Brandon has shown an impressive understanding of nuance and an intentional avoidance/subversion of the typical tropes. He also seems to avoid making anything mirror things in the real world too closely - like even with Kelsier being kind of a Jesus Christ-like character with the Church of the Survivor, he shows how that was clearly a deception from the beginning. Of course with Kelsier still being alive and technically being Preservation for a short time, there's something to it, but it's nothing close to what the believers in the Survivor profess to be true. So I've very much enjoyed that we, as the audience, understand a lot of what is going on in the Cosmere and how things work, while many of our main characters who hold religious beliefs are shown to have some reasons for their belief but only a tiny piece of the true story going on. That's actually another theme in Mormonism though - the belief that all other religions have some truth, but theirs is the only one that has the 'fulness' of truth restored. So that could be at play, but again I expect he will continue to surprise us and keep his final intentions for the Cosmere hidden and murky and hard to predict!

I could totally see that! Especially with their sort of balance being inspired by yin and yang. That imagery is helpful for me when imagining how they sort of mix while maintaining a polarity in their relationship in the cognitive realm.

There are many forces at work in the Cosmere. The 16 shards of Adonalsium. Aethers. Beings like Hoid with vast knowledge and influence. Silverlight. Various groups like the Ghostbloods/17th Shard/Ire/Iriali/etc. And of course, Fortune - the strangest of them all. Each force has it's own motivations and goals, and they each influence each other. One popular theory is that Adonalsium knew they/it would be split into 16 shards and knew how things were likely to play out afterwards. Some suggest that (if Ado was an actual person/vessel) they stayed behind as a cognitive shadow and continued to nudge things along a particular path. Fortune is, I think, the most interesting force in relation to the topic here. It is tied up with the right people being at the right place and having the right things at the right time.... but the unanswered question is what does 'right' mean? Hoid uses what Brandon calls Fortune shenanigans to know where he needs to be, but he doesn't usually know why. My suspicion is that Adonalsium saw the many paths that the future could take when they/it was 'killed' and did something that only all of the shardic powers combined could do: defined or gave purpose to the Cosmere's Fortune to push everything eventually towards a certain goal. From there, I see it like a family tree: if you look at it from the starting point, there are 2 people who split off into more people and more people as they have more descendents who have more descendents, etc. But if you look at it from the end point of 1 single descendent, it does the same thing in the opposite direction (see below). So Fortune (as I currently imagine it for now and could be totally wrong about) is in the background pushing things towards the end goal. there are a million different branches and ways for ti to end up getting to the end goal, and the actual path could be any number of them, but eventually it will converge on that end point as Fortune continues to push things that direction. It may also be 'subconciously' influencing the Shards themselves