BenduLuke

I would have thought that would be obvious. Cutting is part of their identity as a sword in the physical realm which is reflected in all three, but to cut animate matter physically first they need to sever it from investiture spiritually. Seriously are you really asking me this. The idea isn't even all that imaginative so why are you confused?

It is their identity when they are a sword in the physical realm that allows them to use their identity to cut connection in the spiritual realm. They don't do it when they take other non cutting forms or don't have a physical identity currently active.

I am not sure I accept that is the basic function of shard metal only an unexplained consequence of being cut by it. Its function is manifesting in the physical realm in whatever form. Right but without another mechanism, explanation, or evidence to the contrary then my idea works and doesn't even contradict your critique. Just because, is a place holder until the mechanism is explained, but it still leaves open room to theorize on the mechanism until it is explained.

Look we are not talking about a Katana here. Why do they cut the soul? Just because isn't an answer. What is the mechanism because it is not the sharpness of the blade so it must be something else. Do you have evidence that contradicts my idea? The sentience of the spren supports that idea that it is identity. Thanks for limiting your critique to one idea

With what do they cut the soul? Why do they cut the soul? I contend that it involves their identity in contact with the target identity

How do they sever? What do they sever? Why do they sever? What is the force behind their severing? I contend that they expose their connection and identity during the process.

I can accept that people will see my logical or intuitive leaps as baseless because people have been saying that to me for years. The other common response is the "what?" effect to things I have said. In most cases those same people have come back to me later with how did you know or I finally get it. My thought process is admittedly unorthodox and I do make logical or intuitive leaps from a to f or c to s. The other side of that is that I never think what I say is baseless even when others can't follow it. I also never take what others say as baseless even if I don't agree with either their facts or conclusions of those facts. F-Aluminum is a wild card. It allows the storage of Identity and also allows the ferring to bipass the identity lock on metalminds not just create blanks usable by anyone. Do you understand the implications of this. An aluminum ferring who blanks themself can tap another aluminum ferrings metalmind attaining that persons Identity with potentially all their abilities, investiture, skills, and knowledge. Forming a bond forms a connection which can also potentially give an aluminum ferring access to the identity of the other thing or person. So bonding a shardblade may give access to any residual identity within it including that portion of the Radiants identity left over after the recrience from the former bond. Aluminum allomancy allows for the burning away of investiture based injuries more so for Savants so shardblade damage can be burned off as can painrial effects. From what I have read painrials need to store pain before they evoke pain, but Fabrials are something I know the least about. When I first looked at what aluminum does in metal arts it seemed strange to me that in all but one aspect it is investiture inert and even anti investiture. Why is that I asked? It stores Identity is this a clue to what it does or why it does it? Accepting that assumption I thought maybe its relationship with storing and tapping Identity is how it wipes metals and other investiture. Spren would avoid it because to close an interaction would wipe their own identities. Without another outlet burning aluminum stores the metals or investiture identity back into the spirit realm, but if you have a aluminum compounder they can literally store the identity of anything that aluminum burning makes vanish into the SR. Identity also seems to be key in restoring connection. For example once a person accepts as part of their identity that they have a scar or deformed limb it cannot be healed, but if at any time they eliminate that as part of their identity they can be. This idea became plausible in a matter of minutes to me, but as a courtesy I decided to explain my thought process to you. If you can find some other plausible way that aluminum works I am all ears. It just does that is not an explanation. Oh by the way it makes sense that most gem used for fabrials would be investiture resistant because many have aluminum in their structure even before you infuse them with stormlight or spren. The shardplate had a connection to the identity they added and finding it to free it became imperitive for a couple of reasons. There would be another Shardblade to revive (he has a strong desire to heal the Spren at this point) and of course to release the Spren from imposed slavery. Because he now held remnants of the previous Radiant's identity he did have to reaffirm those oaths to heal the Spren of the Blade, but he may also have needed to swear new oaths specific to himself. From my perspective Identity acts as a key to connection. He also never summoned plate he released spren of dead plate that he shared an identity connection with. I am really surprised that none of you said his using stormlight could be complicated thus potentially limiting living plate and surges. In wounding him with the shard investiture the Skybreaker imposed some of the combined identity of himself and the spren into Quicksilver thus giving him access to it to store, and the jolt of burning away the investiture innate in the attack also caused problems for both the spren and the Skybreaker especially since they weren't expecting it. Quicksilver wasn't glowing so how did they know he wasn't normal with attitude flouting their authority. Feruchemy by definition is connection to both aspects of Harmony, Ruin and Preservation. So a stretch, Yeah. Grant the same surges or require the same oaths problably not, but I haven't explored that here yet except to hint at potential lesser splinter status at that time. For that matter he might become the avatar granting bondsmith status representing Harmony on Roshar. Yes any of the spren could break the bond or accept the oath to someone holding at least some of the previous radiants identity as they choose, but it was my narrative and they chose to accept the oaths. No not directly related to Identity except for the connections forged through identity to the Nahel bonds and his own connection to Harmony through Feruchemy. I don't know that they break working principles but they could be said to go against currently working assumptions. With the broad variety of combinations in Scadrian magic it very well could do nearly anything other systems do. For me the big open hole that is aluminum has that potential on its own. Like many of you who are convinced in the near invincibility of Radiants I see no reason to reject that idea from my perspective. Rosharans at this point are not familiar with revolvers or firearms, but guys in armor are part of Quicksilvers history. Rosharans see people who glow as invested, but he is used to invested threats looking like regular people. After reviving the first blade he knew more about Radiants than modern radiants do. So yes he quickly had a major advantage over his Rosharan oponents. I have met several people with that kind of accuracy from range. Later opponents didn't require as much accuracy since he dis-armored them first within reasonable pistol range. At this point most people seem to use surges directly on their target, but throwing stones like Kal did fighting Amram would certainly be effective. He would probably need to steal a Razium dagger to store up Anti-light into metal minds before hand though with his seeker ability to differentiate light he might be able to invert though intent light into anti-light from the transfer to store in his metal minds. As a seeker he would also be sensitive to bonded Spren as potential targets for any aluminum or antilight weapons. @ScadrianTank It would largely depend on the size and penetration of the Ettemetal round used. Any penetration drastically increases the effectiveness.

Actually one of the things Aluminum Ferings can do is use metalminds they didn't create by storing their identity into another first. They can get past the identity lock. As you seem to have noticed if the other aluminum fering had a different allomantic power they might be able to acquire that form of allomancy from the identity mixed with their own identity. Rinse and repeat for the other 14 powers. Yes there is the potential for an Aluminum twin under the right circumstances to become a Fullborn. I am going off the idea that an aluminum compounder savant is a walking hemalugic spike. When they sink investiture or erase metals they use their ferring connection to transfer that identity to their metal mind with the idea that what both the spike and allomantic power do is wipe the relevant identity of the investiture or metal, but instead of sending it to the void a aluminum compounder might be able to direct it to the metalmind. Taking on an identity is a step toward connection and potentially enables connection. There are normal pistol marksmen that could make that shot like Wax. It is all in training and talent. Quicksilver wasn't wearing armor. He intentionally allowed the shard stab just to hack the Skybreaker by the blade. He knew that he could survive the strike for several reasons and could mess with both the blade and Skybreaker through identity manipulation. I also didn't say the Skybreaker was 4th ideal so no need to worrry about his armor just make the killing shot then hack the connection with the blade without conflict with the Skybreakers identity. By that point with the other identities he had merged he knew quite a bit about Radiant and Spren (he got that from the first hack). Direct division is nullified by aluminum burning so is the shard damage. He had aluminum bracers, and jewelry. What would be very interesting is an aluminum compounder working with a forger from Sel but that is beyond this thread. Mostly he wins because his level of inteligence was far greater than the Skybreaker who assumed he was confronting someone regular but in the wrong place illegally. I was only just starting to think about Ettemetal projectiles.Oh and humidity could trigger Ettemetal grenades or projectiles so coat it until it reaches its target. Or what about a Seeker/Soulbearer. Can sense the vairous frequencies of investiture. if someone tries to lash him he stores the investiture in his metal mind to tap as necessary Feruchemically. He would need to wait for someone to use a surge on him to bridge the connection gap, but after that any investiture he is connected to is storable and tappable. In addition with seeker senses they would be able to determine what light to store to incapacitate or even kill Radiants and Fused for use in their weapons. Perhaps carry different types of anti-light in different metal minds to be prepared to combat either then transfer it to ettemetal projectiles for use. Scadrian science works everywhere and metals are both transportable and find able everywhere. Scadrian magic lends itself into scientific discovery which then leads to more uses for Scadrian magic that works everywhere without restriction. If a metalborn can get there they can do what they have always been able to do on Scadrial. That is a major point in favor of Scadrian magic vs Rosharan magic.

Exactly your comments are based on your opinion of the facts. There is allot of open potential to exploit whether or not our opinions become Cosmere reality. No you have rejected allot of evidence you didn't agree with. How do I Know aluminum works that way because I see no documented reason it wont and the way Brandon responded indicated to me there is more going on there than meets the eye. I wont be upset or disappointed if in the future he reveals it does something else. You have shown on many occasions that you underestimate both compounding and twinning. Look if you can't imagine a suggestion at least acknowledge the effort and creativity of the idea even if you disagree with it. This is after all an imaginary universe similar to our own whose rules haven't all been explained so that even ideas you disagree with have merit. Yes we have. Hemalurgy is all about storing others attributes, so is Leeching. Oh and the Nahel bond is about merging Spren attributes with the selected Radiant. Forgery is also about acquiring others attributes. Dude you have been so dismissive of ideas from others you disagree with not just me that many have left the thread because of it. I just happen to refuse to be dismissed even when you frustrate me with your dismissive attitude. Your posts are about contradicting others ideas on the subject not going out on a limb and presenting your own situations to criticism.

First let me congratulate you on at least recognizing the metal being used through out. There is nothing in any comments that I have found that contradicts what Aluminum compounding might do. Brandon when asked directly said thats a big RAFO, which implies to me that there is much more going on with it than we currently know. I am interpreting from the one thing that we know aluminum can be invested with and its stated potential for immunity in its savants to start with. To be honest most of the responces to my last post seem to lack the awareness and imagination you have shown with this one. Let me address Scadrites and Rosharites. It seems to me that many of the people who proposed Scadrian potential have been shouted down by people who seem to have a hard core belief that Rosharans and Rosharan magic are invincible and it has begun to frustrate me so I used those terms as a wake up call to try and get some of you to take a step back. It didn's seem to work. If we look into the future when the 2 meet in the cosmere the landscape will likely be much different. We can only go by where each is now and the descriptions of how the the powers work. Right now until at least after the next SA Book Rosharans and their magic is stuck on Roshar. There have been epic feats of power in books about both worlds and even though it may seem obvious who might come out on top in an engagement I don't think it is so cut and dried. Now I admit it takes a little imagination to see how Scadrian magic will come out on top in a head to head battle with some of the more emphasized Radiant Orders, but with the combinations of powers and in some individuals the near infinite power levels it is well within Scadrian magic to trump Rosharan magic in many cases. I just think that some of you are so set on Rosharan invincibility that you don't even consider or imagine that Scadrian magic is just as formidable. I was surprised a few pages back to find that one of you said a mistborn with a shard hammer might be able to bash a radiants head in when for weeks I have been presenting several versions of the same argument to the debate. I haven't yet talked about ette metal bombs or medallions or even fabrials. I have spent my energy mostly more common better understood Scadrian abilities Except for Aluminum (my indulgence). I don't see myself as polarizing the conversation but pushing back on the overwhelming bias toward Roshar. When is the last time one of you said thats an interesting idea, even if you don't think it works that way. Brandon leaves a lot of gaps for interpretation and imaginiation for all of you to constantly try and shut me down. Oh once again thanks for being less disingenuous to me than some others. How do you know Aluminum compounding doesn't work that way? Brandon RAFOed it. Shardblades turn to mist so converting to mist when their investiture is impeded is not unthinkable. Right and if someone has some of the Identity that the Radiant the spren was bonded to in the past it would ease the way to a full connection. Dead Shardblades do bond to new owners forming a connection which we have seen can be used to start reviving them. I did say Quicksilver shot shardbearers not Radiants until the last conflict then bonded their dead blades. The shard plate he tracked down was bonded to the Radiant that had the Shardblade before and so was revived once in range of the new bonded pair. And yes part of the process of reviving the blades was swearing the types of oaths of the origional Radiants with Identity can come the memory of those oaths within the Spren. So the Spren were revived through the Oaths sworn by someone who shares at least some of the Identity of the former Radiant. Yes I read the books but apperantly I saw things you and the others may not have noticed just as you might have picked up on things I didn't. While going through them again I have been trying to be aware where you get your ideas about the cosmere particularly where they contradict mine. From my perspective there are many twin combinations that can challenge even the most advanced Radiants to date. Just because you and some others don't share my ideas of how things might work doesn't mean they don't work that way so stop just dismissing them because you disagree with them. That has been very disingenuous of all of you and has made this a less than safe place for me on many occasions. I am sorry that you are offended by what I often feel is the attitude of this topic. I have been just about the only person who has continued to be active in this discussion from the first because all the others who have tried to support Scadrian magic have been shouted down by several of you, I just refuse to let you intimidate me off the thread. There are several usual commentators on this thread I could have chosen to respond to and apologize to but I chose you because you have shown some degree of respect and courtesy to me so I felt you deserved a response from me.

On both points I doubt it. I suspect that transferring plate is related to Kal's oath of protection so using it to capture might be outside its transfer use. On the second point Spren feed on stormlight so for plate to remain whole it seems like it must constantly be fed the radiant's stormlight, and more so if damaged.

From what I can tell the metal in the fabrials is not invested, just the gems. It doesn't take much force to bend wires depending on the metal and that is what the allomancers are pushing or pulling on. Bend the wires warp the affects. Change the fabrials position mess with its operation. A coinshot could keep a fabrial ship away from them and add that ships speed to their own, and a lurcher could bring their ship to the fabrial ship to send over a boarding party.

Maybe not but any coinshot or lurcher could mess with the workings of a Rosharan Fabrial because of the metal wires.

Just saying metal wont be a problem worse yet it is all burnable by allomancers or useable by ferrrings.

Maybe once 4th oath might have been common, though according to the books most didn't reach that point, but at this time they are most definitely not. Sure but not necessarily better than a regular metal sword and we don't know how hard or sharp the God metal would be. All it took was a shardblade to disrupt connection manipulation. For all we know a coppercloud could cause disruption. Kel serves Ruin more than preservation. It is pewter allomantic strength not pewter feruchemical strength being feruchemically tapped. It is always there but not always active. Shardblades are essentially sharpened mist. They cut because they are invested. With the investiture drained at best they are ordinary metal swords, but because of their connection to the person they would potentially make great bridge to that persons investiture. Your right mistborn are unknown in the population of 2nd era but we only have 2 maybe 3 4th oath by the end of ROW so for now both are extremes. Yeah it probably takes that kind of energy to unlock the Iron allomancy key for Iron pulls so most of that energy goes into that not into boiling the body. I am with you. I must warn you that most of these guys you have been debating seem to believe Radiants are invincible. I also think there is more potential with twinborn than with full mistborn, but you make a great case. I agree with @AirsickAviar that the physical abilities of metalborn actually do exceed those of Radiants. One thing the Rosharites fail to address is that feats of strength on Roshar are tempered by the lower gravity so are actually less impressive than they seem. There is not reason to believe that invested attributes can't be divided into separate Nicrosil metal minds, but if not feruchemically tapping allomantic pewter would produce affects to potentially exceed duralumin bursts for longer periods. So Agent Quicksilver arrives on Roshar to scout. Gets attacked by a shardbearer who throws a painrial net over him. For a few instants he feels searing pain but he burns it away feigning incapacity. When the shardbearer is about 10 paces away he draws and fires his revolver shooting right through the eye slit in the visor killing the shardbearer. After spending a few days bonding the shardblade left behind he uses the connection to store the shadow of the identity of the previous radiant. He experiences why they broke their bond and stores the pain of that breaking into the painrial while re-establishing the bond with the cryptic that formed the sword at the level before death. He makes an oath to revive as many other dead spren as he can before he is stopped while guaranteeing the safety of Scadrial from Rosharan invasion. He uses the radiant bond to the cryptic to find the matching plate. When he confronts the Shardbearer he is attacked at which time he disolves the shardplate and shoot that radiant in the head then proceeds to bond and revive the leftover blade adding a Reacher spren to his arsenal. The next plate leads to find and bond a cultivation spren after dispatching the shardbearer. As he is investigating Alethcar he is accosted by a Skybreaker and the fight begins. The Skybreaker summons his blade stabbing Quicksilver through the body. For a moment it seems as if the fight will be over right there but the Skybreaker suddenly feels a painful tug against his spren bond. Quicksilver stored some of the Skybreakers identity and burned away the shard wound. Then he shoots the Skybreaker through the eye ending the fight and completing the bond transfer by tapping the Skybreakers stolen identity. With the near complete bonding of all Rosharan surges he forms a Nahel bond through his feruchemy to Harmony making him the forth kind of bond smith with full metalborn potential. The greatest weakness of Rosharan magic is that it can be assumed by anyone who fits the ideals of the relevant spren. At this time the conflict needs to be on Roshar as none of the spren who provide investiture can leave the system and stormlight needed to fuel it are only available there as well. Anywhere you can find the relevant metals Scadrian investiture works. Swinging Kolos swords is comparable to wielding shardhammers, so we have comparable strength. Brandon hand waved on pewter speed vs steel speed in the quoted material earlier, but compounded speed is near infinite just like compounded health. A thug would not have broken there legs like Kal did because of their increased durability. By the way Vin head butted a Thug and smashed his skull with D-Pewter so it was hard head vs very hard head neither had regular bone density. Scadrian science works throughout the cosmere but Rosharn science does not yet. In addition ultimately the combinations of abilities provide Scadiral with some the greatest advantages in the Cosmere. @Bearer of Agonies Lots of metal on a Rosharan ship since all Rosharan fabrials require metal.

Your right cultivation spren (I was having a brain slip day on Spren) A balanced approach does mean looking at potential extremes. Radiants of 4th Ideal are the extreme for now, the average are 2nd Ideal who lack sword, armor, and most of their healing and burn stormlight very fast. So to attempt to compare the extreme 4th ideal I imagine potential extreme metal metalborn. I intentionally try to imagine metalborn who I think could stand up to extreme Radiants given assets metalborn might have era 2 and weaknesses Radiants have post ROW. So yeah I tend to skew my senerio's toward metalborn since there seems to be such a bias toward Radiants most of whom are not comparable to a Kal, or Dalinar in combat. How does a Radiant make a painrial projectile? How do they activate the pain giving of the painrial on their attempted target from a distance? How much stormlight does it consume? How besides luck do they hit someone who may be moving 100's of mph? How long does it take for the Rosharan interegator to build up the knowledge of the physical sciences for the basis they need to understand the Scadrian Technology? How much indepth scientific knowledge does a soldier from Scadrial have to extract? (Your are not going to send a Renett on a scouting mission). Maybe I am ignorant but I have always seen the cutting ability of shardblades as a magical invested ability not a material ability since they don't actually cut living flesh so by touching the blade a Leecher might be able to nullify that aspect of a shardblades ability. It would also potentially lock the living blade into its current form. Of course it might reqiure the blade catching trick Kal learned. My basis is in the statement that Leechers can nullify abilities of invested weapons in the coppermind. I suppose a Windrunner savant might be able to eventually lash from a distance, what do you suppose the detriment might be to reaching that level of ability. Soulcasters turn into their most cast material as they become savant. Homing projectiles seem more like a Reverse lashing ability. Kal did use lashings to throw stones in OB against I think Amram. If Windrunners ever get to the point where they can use lashings at a distance then lashing away projectiles is a definite possibility. Still surges used at a distance seem to take rare individuals like Jasna. Dalinar didn't actually use a shard hammer it was just a very heavy regular hammer, but even he was more adept and likely to use a sword in combat though perhaps less likely than some others. Grabbing the haft of a shardspear like current Windrunners default to instead of Shardblade would actually be easier. Most radiant do seem to default to blades. We haven't actually seen anyone succesfully steal or use connection in combat so I would need more details to understand how that gives combat trumping ability especially since Stormfather clearly said that Bondsmiths individual abilities in combat are less than notable. The closest we come is Ishar trying to steal Dalinars connection to Stormfather and we really don't know what would have happened there if Zeth hadn't intervened. How is it unblockable? With plain feruchemy maybe not but with compounded feruchemy what makes you think it can't reach that level? It is possible that at 4th oath armor is reflexive but that has yet to be seen. Yes Kaladin is impressive and he was able to beat more than one shardbearer with minimum investiture. As you may have guessed I think there are many other options than. I agree that we also haven't really seen the full potentiality of Living plate yet. Even hitting someone moving at over 100 mph would be extremely difficult and Steel compounders could move much faster than that before wind or friction becomes a problem. A steelrunners velocity will add to the force of their projectile, and coinpushes have been shown to have bullet velocities alone. I think you misunderstood I was guessing on possible incendiary compositions and when I saw that what I guessed is one of the types of rounds it amused me. We still don't know what the actual heat resistance of shardplate is and it wasn't just heat but the nullifying effects of aluminum that I was referring to. Though I may be wrong I don't see any difference between chemical burning and allomantic burning of metal. The Iron mechanical armor would require practice to move naturally. I imagine that both Pewter and Tin would aid in marksmanship. Pewter because of the increase in physical abilities. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean there are not Pewter marksmen. Tin because of enhanced senses. It is the Soulbearer ferring that divides the invested abilities inherent in pewter burning Just like windwhisper splits the senses. I don't think the Radiant in that situation would be as fast or strong. 4th ideal Radiants are outliers so need to be confronted with metalborn outliers. Most people I have seen promoting Radiants lean toward extreme Radiants. Citation: A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Chromium

Yeah I am aware of Shad. People use the weapons they are familiar with that is why Kal defaults to a spear most of the time. Lyft doesn't like blades so she makes forks and hammers, but most of the Radiants default to swords and don't seem to consider other weapons. I think i didn't respond to that comment because I couldn't see the relevance to the discussion we were having and I still don't so I don't know how to respond to it. Call it ignorance on my part as I am not sure of the point. I wasn't really making an insult, I was expressing my opinion that you seem biased in an effort to encourage you to try and consider a different perspective. Everyone is biased to some degree which creates blind zones to our understanding. I have actually appreciated comments you have made that have addressed some of my biases when I realize them causing me to confront them. The heaviest thing we have seen metalborn affect are buildings. More often it isn't about weight and strength that affects what is wielded than about leverage. Shad would tell you that Kolos sword would be very unwieldy but no where near the weight limit for just pewter strength. Rashek and the other Terismen before he was TLR were lifting massive boulders out of the trail. Sazed was holding a gate closed with strength and weight against Kolos plural for a period of time. So there are metal born feats of strength comparable to Shard strength. The increased muscle and bone strength provided by Iron compounding to compensate for weight could mean that person could deliver a blow with their fist which might rock any moral in the cosmere back on their heels and shatter even living shard plate. If that durability doesn't extend to their skin they would have scraped and bloody knuckles, though at that level of density I suspect that even their skin would be more dense and durable. I view Scadrial vs Roshar as a contest more like Bruce Lee vs Andre the Giant. Bruce Lee IMHO is the more versatile and skilled fighter, but Andre could take enourmous punishment and if he gets a hold of Bruce at any point his shear power would overwhelm Bruce. Your idea make me wonder if A nicorsil compounder could trap a Spren in Nicrosil. I would love to see a fabrial scenerio. A steel compounder has near unlimited speed which realistically means they can run very fast for a very long time. They are immune to the negative effects of inertia so sudden changes of direction wont affect them. They are capable of relativistic velocities if they can find a way to negate wind resistance and friction (bond with a Cryptic to become slippery) but at present that would limit them to mach speeds with some potential direction control through steel pushes. They could add the force of their velocity to their pushes for more impact. I finally get why we argue about velocity increasing mass. You are right from the steelrunner's perspective they retain the same mass but from their opponent's perspective that might be a different story. Because of you I decided to investigate the chemical composition of incendiary rounds and was pleasantly surprised that I wasn't far off. Many actually do use aluminum and some are made with potassium magnesium compounds and aluminum. Some with those chemicals are even armor piercing. https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-analysis-of-firearms/incendiary-bullets.html Tapped weight by definition does increase strength and Wax in alloy of Law commented on that fact as well. We also have the example of Sazed holding the gate closed against the Kolos mostly due to his increased weight and the strength it provides. I guess I didn't explain why I think Iron armor might act like powered armor for an Iron compounder. Iron pulling on levers and gears within the armor could cause it to be like modern robotic armor. It is the metal pulls that would grant what seems like enhanced strength normally. It would require practice and finesse. Kind of like all the work saving devices in Renett's lab. I get the Idea of pewter arms having increased aim from how Vin gained increased balance like a cat. It didn't just increase strength but all the physical attributes at once of which F-pewter only stores strength. Steel would store speed. Gold would store healing. Nicrosil might store all of them as they are individually invested abilities which are potentially split between different metals. there is some mental speed overlap in steel related to reflexes. Pushing liquid metal created through friction could be quite the offensive weapon. Living armor is always immediately accessible but may require a conscious summoning. Shardblades disappear when the Radiant gets knocked out so it stands to reason that armor does to. Not punch the rock but lift and swing the rock like a massive club. You are right I take metalborn to the extreme (more so than seemingly anyone else), but I think most people overestimate Radiants when comparing them to metal born. Kal beat a shard bearer because he was flat out a much better more talented warrior with only minimal radiant abilities at the time, is it so hard to imagine that extreme training or talent makes a difference in a conflict with a stronger opponent. Yes and a Leecher who touches the shardblade can nullify its invested cutting effect or if they touch the radiant before it is summoned block it all together. Perhaps touching the Shardblade they leech the stormlight right out of the Radiant through the connnection (could be a very extreme possibility). Also another extreme possibility is that a Leecher Savant might be able to do it from a distance. I think it depends on the twinborn since there is the potential for unlimited or extreme ability available to a twinborn more so than even a full feruchemist. Radiants of the 4th ideal have permanent access to plate, but might still need to consciously summon it to protect them. Steel compounders could travel at mach speeds which is more than enough to run circles around Radiants. Even at hundreds of MPH Radiants wouldn't see what hit them. By definition there are only 2 limits to their speed. They cannot run at the speed of light. Friction and wind resistance can become a problem but if they can solve that by say bonding a Cryptic to get slippery they can run near the speed of light. So with a Steel compounder you have a person who can run at hundreds to thousands of mph for long periods who are not affected by sudden changes in direction and need to limit their speed to how much wind resistance and friction they can handle for the given length of time. In additon they can transfer the momentum of their speed into their metal pushes to create devastating shardplate penetrating projectiles.

You are right that both Wax and Brandon said increased weight doesn't increase stopping power, but for the most part there are very few examples of Wax or Sazed using Iron to any extreme level so that may be because of experience. That is at least partially contradicted by Wax crashing through a floor with no cuts, scrapes, or splinters on his exposed skin and since that was a one time occurrence he may not have realized that in extreme cases there is some affect. He also noted that his bone structure and muscle strength seemed to increase to handle his increased weight which is another indication of potentially increased resistance. Perhaps different components of the body increase density at different rates. Bones already start at twice the density of tissue which is about 1 1/2 times denser than water and water may not increase density at all since water is water but muscle and bone can increase density through exercise. By the rules of comounding Iron can achieve near unlimited density and thus weight, but Wax wasn't a compounder and it took him thousands of hours to reach being able to tap building mass where a compounder could achieve that in minutes to hours or maybe days depending. Even if for some inexplicable reason piercing attacks are always equally effective the near infinite mass and the strength it provides; skeletal, muscle, and allomantic, could be augmented by Iron armor acting as their metal mind which itself would provide piercing protection. Yes I saw you were focused on compounding affects, but I wanted to introduce the Idea that there are instances where twinning could produce equally spectacular results or in some cases more spectacular results. I feel this is an aspect which is often overlooked and undervalued nor is compounding often given its full due so I certainly appreciate you list. Perhaps there are other compounding effects that are not immediately obvious that would guarantee victory as well.

Ettmetal is an alloy in that it is produced by the Juxtoposition between Preservation and Ruin in Harmony that replaced Lerasium and Atium After Harmony ascended. It may not be a metallurgical alloy though. How does burning work? We don't know that's not how it works. Burning means burning and there have been no qualifiers to the word in the Arcanum. Almost no Radiants use anything but swords that seems to be the default. Shard hammers, or what ever invested armor is still resistant to the damage. Iron is pretty resistant as it is as well. Who says Radiant armor remains when the Knight goes unconscious? Is that just your biased speculation? I didn't ask you to argue my case but from my perspective your critiques are just your speculation and usually equally unrealistic but biased toward Roshar. I wonder if you don't come up with potentially realistic situations between a Rosharan and Scadrian because you fear someone will critique it. In other words you seem to only be able to parrot generalities very open to interpretation. You are way overestimating Radiants and their physical abilities in comparison to Metalborn abilities. In this case I think it is your bias that causes your blindness. There are few individuals who have anywhere near the martial capabilities of a Kaladin or Dalinar or their degree of surge control. So what if there have only been 3 crashers ever we are only talking about perhaps 300 years so 1 per generation, but that is only 1 twin combination among thousands which could be available at any given time. Just like some Radiants there are combinations which all but unbeatable. The potential advantages are very different between Scadrial and Roshar so we cannot say either always has an advantage. IMHO Scadrial has more advantages than Roshar in more situations combat and otherwise. To me it is obvious. When comparing Scadrial to Roshar you are comparing Bruce Lee to Andre the Giant and personally I wouldn't be sure of either winning in every situation. So they neutralize the shardblade the shardplate, the stormlight and shoot the Radiant in the face. It is in the Leecher description that they can neutralize invested weapons. Shardblade range means leecher range. Only a highly skilled 4th ideal radiant has a chance of surviving this encounter with the highly trained twinborn.

Each of the shards seems to have a metal named after the host of the shards power. (Lerasium-Leris, Atium was Ruin's metal, Trellium-Trell(what ever shard that is) and there is indication of other God metals as yet unnamed but referenced generally in the coppermind. Ettmetal is Harmony's metal and is an alloy of Atium and Lerasium. @therunner Has made a decent response posted below on the potential conflict. In a bruteforce one on one fight between a Knight Radiant and a Metalborn it seems as if the Radiant has the advantage out of the gate. It requires more creativity to see how a metalborn might have the advantage, but their advantage is in versatility of their combined abilities. In addition Scadrial as was stated has an industrialized civilization which further increases the array, power, and versatility of a metalborn opponent to take into account both in a one on one fight and an all out war. So in a one on one fight it is my opinion that it depends on the metalborn and their armaments who actually has the advantage since Radiant advantages are static and all but identical with only minor variations. In an all out war the versatility, technology, and industrialization of Scadrial at the current state gives Scadrial the definite advantage. Where the runner and I seem to be in contradiction is that we disagree on some of the potentially extreme examples I have presented as actually possible. Good summary. I do disagree with some of it. Just to be clear a steelrunner would be moving faster than the observer, and potentially much faster especially if they could find a way to shield from air friction and wind. Velocity always includes gravity since by definition velocity is absolute speed in a direction. Gravity is simply accelleration toward the planet or what ever and would always an accounted for vector in velocity. In this case the observer and the steelrunner would share that vector so it would be relatively null. Thus an increase in velocity in any other vector would increase mass though not usually measurable at newtonian scales. Atium at the current period is a non starter as it does not appear to be available anymore in any quantity. (Harmony changed the allamantic rules slightly such that it appears that atuim and lerasium and their alloys were replaced by ettmetal). Most radiants don't have acces to living shards and all shards have a limit to the amount of damage they can take. Dead shards can reach that limit with mundane force applied and lose stormlight with impacts and or damage. Living plate could be considered more resiliant so long as the stormlight lasts but just like surges damage will eventually overwhelm their store of stormlight and they will fail. @frustration responded that Shardplate can insulate against lightning, but they are metal and potentially very conductive to electicity that does not imply they are equally resistant to burning metal especially if that metal while burning could theoretically nullify investiture. The coppermind does not differentiate between allomantic burning and burning metal. burning aluminum and aluminum penetrating an invested system nullifies investiture. I realize that if the two are different in fact that the idea doesn't work however at this point burning is burning. In both cases the metal is consumed by some combustible reaction called burning. The description of this reaction allomantically is like a fire or heat inside them as we might expect in a metal burning. What projectiles would you use against shardplate, because we know it isn't indestructable and can be destroyed through mundane force applied by a human being. I would bet that an Iron compounder in full Iron plate could demolish any Radiant one on one and toe to toe. The iron armor itself would be a metalmind with insane storage capacity (Wax wears metal bracers and was able to store enough weight to equal the mass of a building). Being a metalmind it would be shardblade resistant. Any metal on the Radiants person would give the Iron compounder a means to drag the Radiant back again and again for punishment. With tapped weight comes increased strength (muscle, structural, and allomantic). With practice and some finesse the Iron armor would behave like powered armor the Iron compounder. He would also be able to operate devastating projectile weapons capable of devastating damage and wield heavy melee weapons capable of shattering shardplate. If you think about it a steel compounder would be capable of demolishing most radiants before they could even react. Steel armor would give them wind and friction resistance shielding them from the effects of more extreme velocities than usual. They themselves could hurl projectiles at velocities that could pierce plate. Even 4th ideal radiants would be almost defenseless against this opponent. Even soft projectiles traveling fast enough can pierce much harder targets like straw though trees or telephone poles. In this case the Radiants only chance would be if their healing lasted long enough and was effective enough under constant catastrophic damage or they got very lucky (plot armor). I get that you don't think the specific ideas I present are realistic to the Cosmere, but the concepts behind them are. Perhaps instead of criticizing me where you think my ideas are unrealistic present more realistic ideas based on the concept I seem to be trying to present. Such as pewter enhaced reflexes and increased physical accuracy might enable the Agent to take advantage of a possible opening in the Skybreakers eye slit with alluminum rounds. Or as the Skybreaker charges the Agent uses Feruchemically tapped pewter strength, speed, and reflexes to smash a huge nearby boulder into his faceplate stunning him while he is smashed into the rocky ground senseless the armor disolves and the Skybreaker is stabbed through the heart with the aluminum bayonet. It really doesn't matter if the Thugbearer needs to store the pewter enhanced abilities together or separately, he would still be unequalled physically while tapping it. Being able to split the enhanced abilities like tineye abilities can be split by a windwhisper gives a little more flexibility. We know that Feruchemists can store multiple abilities at the same time, and that Nicrosil can store virtually any kind of investiture so logically a soulbearer fering would be able to split the invested abilities of invested metals. The soulbearer could split tineye abilities as well. Tin and Pewter seem to be the only allomantic metals that contain related internal abilities that could be split unless you could split the metal sense from Iron or Steel from the pull and push. Windwhispers could store that metal sense to be tapped at need. Twinborn actually have more potential in my opinion than Misborn or Feruchemists. I think most people underestimate the potential of metalborn and overestimate radiants since few ever look past the surface of the abilities. At this point we have 2 or 3 individuals who are at 4th ideal and indications that reaching it are extra ordinary so in most contests living shardplate will never be an issue and dead shardplate is a disadvantage to a radiant. There is likely at least one person on Scadrial with any combination twin abilities at any given time and almost any combination does have a military application that could be exploited for an advantage especially in the more advanced industrialized society. I seem to be one of the only ones who makes an effort to find ways scadrial trumps roshar Try on a Highly trained leachbearer (Chromium-A/Nicrosil-F) stores wiping investiture. Radiant shows up all glowwy and suddenly stormlight, and armor is gone. They are startled and get shot in the head by fast drawing gunslinger twinborn before they are close enough to use their shardblade. Windrunner or Skybreaker might fall out of the Sky as they get shot. Edgedancers might end up splattering all over the ground because of a loss of slickness while running as they get shot. No stormlight, no living shardplate if they are even 4th ideal, odds are they are not.

I would add that on Sel if you know the right symbol you can do virtually anything in your effective area. So Selish magic is the most versatile, powerful and most limited magic in the cosmere.

Good list but I think you might be underestimating some of them. Iron with near infinite mass comes with near infinitely strong muscle and bone so get punched by one of these and they may shatter both you and your plate, and if you have any metal on you they might be able to pull you back over and over. Tin might be able to hit the Radiant with lethal force from very far away without being detected in the dark. Not for a toe to toe confrontation. Tin-F combinations with other metals will provide other senses that could increase their covert attack and evasion ability. Pewter paired with some other allomantic metal could provide additional advantages like health with gold. Nicrosil turn the Radiant into a radiant bomb by causing instant unexpected stormlight burst (worse while wearing plate) which might cause an explosion in and around the Radiant. On the other side a Radiant with a nicorburst ally could depend on sudden boosts in power. Twin Soulbearer with other allomantic metals and you could have Feruchemical bursts of Allomantic powers. Steel pushes on a Feruchemical scale(greater than Duralumin boost) with metal perception into trace metals nearby. Store every pewter enhanced ability for feruchemical tapping on demand (health, strength, balance, reflexes, durability, wakefulness). Name an allomantic ability and soulbearers can use it Feruchemically. Aluminum savants can become immune to invested attacks while being potentially resistant to and heal from shardblades so highly trained might be very effective. walk through a division attack, laugh at an ineffective gravity lash and so on with external stormlight attacks. Armed and armored with aluminum might be a toe to toe contender. I suspect that aluminum compounders might be Like Scadrian forgers with the ability to store then tap identities which have virtually any ability or skill they have come across.

What would you say are unique about the other systems?

It doesn't matter whether the Hazekiller Tech was shown being used by Hazekillers it is still Hazekiller tech or for better definition anti-investiture tech. It is the training that makes Hazekillers so specialized and because of them the armaments that give regular people a chance to challenge invested individuals. Does shardplates durability extend to extremely high temperature burning metal? It may not be piercing by force but by hot burning metal and aluminum once either burning or piercing does negate all investiture so in that region the armor will likely come apart exposing the KR to burning aluminum inside their body which will likely neutralize all the stormlight in the KR. Enslaving Spren is like performing animal testing not like domesticating cows. I gave you an article from Berkley physics. I didn't respond to your wikipedia article directly because it supported what I told you. Here is another article from wikipedia since that seems to be your trusted source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity Mass does increase with velocity (Speed in a direction) because energy increases as velocity increases and as energy increases mass increases, the speed of light certainly doesn't change. Still a person with a big pointy sword will most likely default to the sword if his more complicated division attack fails. Aluminum is light enough that it could cover the whole body either as plates, scales or fine chain or all of the above. It could even be as layers of thin fiber wires woven together with durable fabrics. What burning pewter does is invest several physically based abilities which depending on the feruchemical metal could be stored individually just like burning tin invests all senses at once but a tin ferirng compounder splits those invested senses into individual metal minds. Nicrosil seems to literally be able to store any kind of investiture so pewter invested abilities could theoretically be split into separate metal minds by the Soulbearer. What Wax and Brandon say about Iron-F and durability and what happened as Wax crashed through the floor contradict. That is easily explained by Wax not tapping weight significant enough to recognize any noticeable change and so far Brandon hasn't used an Iron ferring who could do that. Wax at regular durability and weight still used steel pushes to slow his fall and minimize impact. What do you mean incendiary shells are great at piercing armor they melt right through. Armor piercing rounds used on Tanks often have an incendiary component. When I was in Highschool my chemistry teacher pulled out pellets of pure potassium from its oil bath and once exposed to air it ignited almost imediately. We used pure K pellets to ignite Mg which burned through 2 inch steel plate and lit the water in the liter beaker on fire before finally cooling enough to be doused. It also cracked the beaker. The Mg would ignite the Al. Yes Al alloy would likely be the jacket and might crack on impact with shardplate. Exposure to air and the heat friction would ignite the K which in turn ignites the Mg then both the Al Jacket and Al core which then burns through the armor and the person beneath. Scadrian's would use aluminum because they know it counters investiture. It can't be detected allamantically or deflected and effectively disables overt investiture it comes in contact with. They know it disrupts speed bubbles, healing, emotional manipulation, copper clouds and can totally neutralize allomantic metals so can speculate that it will likely effect other forms of investiture. I expect that in the future the police will use aluminum restraints on people in case they have some form of metalborn ability to negate it. Even a pewter arm restrained by aluminum handcuffs would likely cut his wrists while trying to break them and lose all the pewter in his system. One of the properties of aluminum is that when it burns it neutralizes investiture. However your points are good. We don't know what temperatures Shardplate can withstand in small areas. If aluminum acts differently with allomantic burning than just regular burning then it would depend entirely on the point heat resistance of the plate. If burning is burning then the stormlight cohesion would be lost perhaps in the entire plate and it might lose all durability exposing the Skybreaker. I can't say the scenario I presented would happen how I framed it only that it potentially might. Aluminum is actually never entirely pure since it oxidizes in 2 seconds when exposed to air. this whole topic is speculation based on loose examples and rules. Some abilities have substantial documentation, but most are much more open to interpretation. the point was to present a situation where the Scadrian would likely out "gun" the Rosharan one on one since most people seem locked into the idea that there is no way one on one a Scadrian has a chance in a head on confrontation. I just don't buy that. Oh the Mg demonstration the water didn't put it out it burned out. It still burned for a good 10 seconds and it certainly didn't have even the volume of a .22 bullet. Duralumin burning might cause a stormlight flash wiping stormlight explosively in the armor and KR and its penetration removes both connecton and identity so again destructive to the KR.

Ok so spanreeds are potentially ansibles but at the moment the distances they are used at is so small to make no difference. Of course since Adonalsium is the primary shard that all other come from it might have that effect. Shields, aluminum, obsidian, glass, flash bangs, Renett ammunition, dueling canes, (perhaps I am forgetting some). All these things imply anti-metalborn tech. Balistas and nets are medieval tech, repeating firearms and cars are early 20th century tech. Eventually I expect that Roshar will have a more complete physical and chemical understanding then their advances with magic will really take off, but that could be a ways down the road from where we are. They still use pike lines at this point which is very vulnerable to the tactics and weapons of an early 20th century tech. Even if there is not gap to allow the helmet to move (That seems unlikely) the Aluminum incendiary round would create one and might even eliminate the armor entirely in at least the region it strikes while burning into the flesh beneath the burning metal pierced armor. Consider burning aluminum neutralizes investiture, and anything or anyone pierced by aluminum loses investiture, and Incendiary aluminum containing rounds do both and are hot enough to cause massive and perhaps explosive injury. We don't know what Navai's ethics will compel her to do, nor do we know what affect the Sybling bond will require of her with regards to fabrials as they are now being prisons for Spren. As things stand she seems to be in a position of cognitive dissonance and will likely need to find some way to ethically acquire spren which might set back and change fabrial creation as a result in the near term. Of course ethically Rosharan's in general have no problem with all forms of slavery. That is one of the fundamental causes of the war they are involved in. It is one of the major ethical levers that Odium is taking advantage of. Odium may be bad but he is also taking advantage of the passion of slaves who have been abused.