BenduLuke

Welcome you two. Elantris and Warbreaker are definitely better read before Oathbreaker. Elantris is on the same world as Emporors soul Also once you have done both Elantris and Warbreaker you may want to read Arcanum unbound (edgedancer, 11th metal and secret history are in it). My first Brandon book was in the Wheel of Time then I read Alloy of Law and was hooked. I had to go back to Final Empire. I have a hard time getting enough of Wayne, and Lyft and to a lesser extent Wax, Shallon, Vin and Kaladin. My favorite book was Edge Dancer, then Alloy of Law. Once you finish the Cosmere the Reconers and Legion are great. I haven't started the Skyward series and am a little miffed that he did that Series before finishing Wax and Wayne. Enjoy your time here.

The thin black haired man sat watching the boy in the school yard from across the street, pondering why he was so glum. He stood and sauntered across the dusty street toward the boy. When the boy looked up he smiled and greeted him. The man asked the boy "why so glum my boy?" The boy responded "its my metal birthday." "Well that doesn't make sense" the stranger said. The Boy said "everyone expects me to discover my metal tonight, but I just know I will fail. All the others say so because no one has seen a hint of what it is." The man said "here let me give you a present for you birthday. If none of the metals they give you work at least these will make you feel a little better. From where I was sitting I could see you have a lot of potential so long as you stay your true self." Then he handed the boy a pair of silvery bracers and a bag of powdery metal. "Now don't lose these or sell them because they are worth more than money can buy to you." "Who are you?" the boy asked. The man answered "just a man blown like Dust before the wind." After school the boy went home for his metal party. When he walked in the door his Father noticed the bracers and asked "Kagi, where did you get those?" "A man at the school gave them and this bag to me so I wouldn't be sad if nothing works at my metal party." He answered. Now a metal party is a Terris tradition where the child is exposed to various alloys to see if they have any metal talents. They try to store attributes in the metals and see if they can burn any metals. Many parents can only afford the most common metals for the party so sometimes it may be years before a child discovers their metal art. Kagi's father was a poor potter so was in that situation himself. So when he saw the silvery metal he thought to himself if the metals I obtained don't work we will try those and if they don't work selling some of that metal will enable me to get some of the more expensive metals to try. At his look Kagi asked "was it bad to let the man give me these for my birthday?" "No Son. I think those might be lucky metals. What was the man's name?" the Boys father asked. Kagi answered "he said he was dust." His father said "lets get ready for the party." Later that evening the guests were all gathered around the table after the cake and the games looking at a row of metals and dust set out for the metal ceremony. One by one Kagi tried on the bracers and tried to store attributes followed by swallowing a small amount of metal dust and trying to burn it. There were eight on the table. First Kagi tried Iron with no success, then came steel, tin, and pewter with no results. The next four, zinc, brass, copper, and bronze also failed to work for him. Finally his father took out the silvery bracers and dust saying try these. The guests stared in disbelief. One man asked how they could afford it and Kagi's father said a stranger gave it to them that day. Kagi put on the bracers and concentrated then his eyes went wide. He said "I feel a hole inside them." When he swallowed some of the dust his he gasped and said I feel something burning inside me. The crowd cheered. One of the old men said you have a rare gift and one not normally discovered since aluminum is very expensive so be sparing with it. Then one of the youths jeered yeah old man but it is also useless since it doesn't do anything. Over the next hour as people filed out to go home they debated. Finally once they were all gone his father told Kagi never to take off the bracers and to always be ready to swallow the dust if someone tried to take it. Keep the bracers covered in public and they painted them with his acrylics to hide the material explaining that they were very valuable so bad people might covet them.

It seems obvious to me that we read the same WoB's and whatever and interpret them different. I will address Aluminum one more time. When a person burns aluminum metals disappear. When a person uses a hemalurgic spike of aluminum powers disappear. It doesn't grant or steal any investiture or power to any recipient either allomantically or hemalugically. It is unique in this being a reactive metal that is entirely inert in almost every way. It has been described as an investiture sink which would indicate that investiture or power goes in but doesn't go out. How or why it does this hasn't been explained yet, but any aluminum fired with the intent that it be a hemalugic spike would if it penetrates to blood wipe all power. I interpret that as being stormlight in Radiants, but it could mean they lose their Radiant status permanently since it says power not investiture like it does in allomancy. In addition some have said that it must pierce the heart, but if it did the Radiant would be dead regardless since the aluminum would stop the heart from healing thus killing them. The Radiant who gets hit with an aluminum bullet, shrapnel or other spike would likely lose all their stormlight and would not likely be able to use stormlight until it was removed. Skybreakers and windrunners would fall from the sky if they were flying, edgedancers immediately stop being slippery, and no surges of any kind would work because their would be no stormlight to power them. It is not anti-investiture it is the scientific counter investiture metal. Lurchers and coinshots do have ways to maneuver in the air regardless which direction they are lashed. I didn't say Wax was bullet proof and I have my own opinion of why that is, but his bones and muscles were stronger to handle the increased mass. By definition increased mass in the same volume is increased density, which would enable that person to have potentially massive strength particularly if they could compound. It also doesn't mean the density needs to be uniform and probably isn't. If Wax were storing 25% of his weight every day from age 20 to 60 and never tapped it his maximum weight stored would be almost 1.1 million lbs if he weighs 200 lbs. If he were an Iron compounder after compoiunding 5 times he would have 5 million lbs of available weight and could be 25,000 times denser for 1 day. He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted. Depending on how long it takes him to burn the metal mind and store the weight to compound say 1 hour (I think it is much faster) in 1 day (initial storeage time) and 5 hours of time he would have that available. We know Wax's bracers hold hundreds of thousands of pounds because he has tapped that much. Forgive me for saying this. I don't think many of you have really thought through the potential inherent in the metal arts. It seems as if in the Future Scadrial and Roshar will be at a stalemate in terms of power so there must be something that some of you are overlooking when saying that the contest is uneven and Roshar is likely to win. Right now they can't have a conflict because neither can leave their system in force. Radiants and Fused can't travel at all and Scadrians have difficulty reaching the CR (Some do or no Ghostbloods). I have given many specific examples look back and see. No I don't think those examples have been disproved I just got tired of trying to convince you since obviously we disagree which doesn't make either me or you right or wrong, it just means we will need to wait and see who is right if any of us are. I have even given creative Radiant examples of potential power uses that have been ignored recently. I appreciate the effort you have taken I am just not convinced by your arguments enough to change my opinion of what I have read in the Cosmere. I don't ignore the author I disagree with what you think the author is saying of the principles he has presented and those not explained. He is intentionally vague. That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.

I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you. I think Scadrial has more potential ability to scale up production well in excess to Roshar. The reason is that to produce the fabrials is limited to a few artisans and by the number of available spren at any given time. Scadrial has the potential for ramped up assembly lines using machines and is not limited by the need of artisans and spren. You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it. Your following statements seem to contradict each other: "These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not: Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners) Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials) Turn off investiture (no such effect) Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead) In metallic arts it does the following Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer. Feruchemy, store Identity. Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)." it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes. Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont. Feruchemists build up their investiture in their metalminds and in the case of compounders they are filling it with Harmony granted investiure instead of storing only their own attributes for later use. They are fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy and doing so with what amounts to an ever increasing pipe like from a straw, to a garden hose, to a fire hose, to a water main and beyond. It is hinted that their may be a way to compound allomancy with feruchemy but we don't have any examples or descriptions of that yet. So yes I understand that metal only opens the investiture pipe for use. Metalminds must have incredible capasity since Wax could store tens or even hundreds of thousands of pound of weight in his. For that matter they seemed nearly limitless. Wayne's limit wasn't his metalminds but how difficult it was to store health. As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says: Other anti-Investiture[edit] It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture. So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans. Scadrian weapons really could be 200 times more effective and lethal than Medievil weaponry (Swords, sheilds, pikes and such). A civil war era battalion(Scadrial) with repeating rifles, machine guns, and artillery would decimate whole armies of Arthurian soldiers(Roshar). Most Radiants would also be vulnerable to those weapons before they could strike and could be detected so surprise is not on their side. Some potential metalborn could go toe to toe with any Radiant at any oath and with battalion support would devastate virtually any army Roshar could field. Numbers don't mean you will win. A good example of this where Tech trumps numbers is in the David Weber Series of Safehold, and they start at roughly Renesance tech planet wide. Sorry we will just need to agree to disagree that you can't use right frequency of light to kill Radiants. Stormlight is light and nothing any of you has quoted has proven otherwise to me to the contrary from my perspective It further supports my opinion. Fair enough, but if he tapped weight he would potentially become a battering ram until the lash ran out and could mitigate any fall by storing all of it during his fall. Plus when Wax changes weight/mass he said his speed changes as a result. BoM on the dance floor with Khriss. Someone who could compound would have even more control and would be even more of a threat. The rail car scene in BoM shows that Wax's durability does increase with his weight to compensate. He was more durable when he pushed the car from the tracks than when he was on the car because he could afford to tap more weight there and did. One of the things he needed to be careful of on the car was crushing himself by pushing to hard when that wasn't a worry on the tracks.

The Sybling was one spren that made up the tower. A highly advanced spren at that. If your fighting for survival you would spare no expense. Gems from fallen foes would be valuable on Scadrial as well. It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels. There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture. No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin. Ishar is a bondsmith herald and practically a walking perpendicularity. The Highstorm is likely to be honors perpendicularity, but what Dalinar does is an unbound bondsmith perpendicularity where he connects the 3 realms. I wouldn't bet on that since Shallon got hers from a scadrian based organization. When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things? I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it? Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store. Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you. So I am afraid what it comes down to for me is that we just disagree and we will need to see what happens next.

When you spend hundreds of pages arguing fantasy war contests and physics in the Cosmere and refuse to let the subject die even if others tell you that your wrong much of the time.

Dust smiled his hair bleeding to black and said, "there is a conflict coming and you are now one of Harmony's swords able to both preserve and destroy. He is preparing another to use on your home world, but he needs you to help guide other worlds starting with this one. I also need you to keep an eye on things here while I take care of other business and by the look of you I think you might finally be up to the task." "what about this ghostblood assignment the girl gave me", I asked. He said, "they have their place but seem to be misdirected here, you might guide them toward withdrawing for now. At least until the situation is resolved here. Once you finish with that go to the Ukalaki peaks there is an enemy agent expected soon which could prove very dangerous. I think I will have a word with T on my next trip and remind him to reign in his people here." The rest of his visit was spent catching up and sharing news of home.

War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict. Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function. The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose. Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers. Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech. One of the premises of this discussion is that Rosharan's and Scadrians are able to engage in the conflict and Scadrians are on Roshar so they had to get their through the CR somehow, but for now we know invested Rosharans cannot travel the other way. Surges can be countered by Aluminum and Anti-light though what each does is different. Scadrial also has the metal ability to quickly determine the Anti-light weakness. Oh and I do keep in mind surge limitiation and possibilities, but since the discussion in gerneral favors Radiants I see no need to ellaborate on Radiant advantages (which in my opinion many have been undersold because their advocates seem more concerned with down playing Metalic advantages instead). Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating. I interpret that when Navani says stormlight acts like liquid it is her way of saying it has wave properties just like regular light does. Light in the Cosmere is invested just like metal. One example of this is White Sand. It does require some means just like metal to be used though. Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material. We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations). I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat. The range and accuracy of windrunners is much less than that of guns and artillery. Besides in war why would you use a gun of any kind in the open if you didn't need to.

A decent line up though it seems to me that Scadrian Tech is more like just pre WWI Since they have cars. The range of artillery also seems short for the period since artillery range could potentially be miles and or thousands of yards depending on the piece. Also using aluminum for projectiles and shrapnel would be effective against all but 4th oath Radiants and Someone mentioned thunderclasts. Oh the flack used against Windrunners and Skybreakers could be Aluminum too. Thunderclasts if they could even be used off system would be vulnerable to heavy artillery since stone is still brittle and they are a huge target making them easy to hit from far away. You make a good point that if the fight happens on Roshar Scadrians would be at a disadvantage, but also at this point it would need to be since Radiants are trapped there. Bronze mistings could guard against sneak attacks by Radiants or Fused since they are natural detectors and Tin eyes could detect other attempted sneak attacks. I don't think enough Windrunners would get through the machine guns and artillery to make that much difference. All the Scadrian Tech can be transported into the CR so fleeing to CR to sneak and Attack would leave those who do more not less vulnerable to attack, or do you think that all of the tech would be moved back to the PR on Arrival? The ultimate detector from Scadrial would be a Windwhisper/Sentry. They would be nearly impossible to sneak past. Scadrial is at the point where it could quickly ramp up its industrial production and innovation to produce arms for war, but the same can't be said for Roshar. Jasnah is only one person and could be overwhelmed by numbers and detected long before she could strike, don't count on the CR there would likely be troops there as well and She would be without Plate or Blade there. Again Aluminum based weaponry would be lethal especially in the CR against Radiants of any kind regardless how much stormlight they have. Heavy weapons and artillery would drain a lot of stormlight to stop Radiants, but it would be much simpler to just use Aluminum based weapons and Scadrians do know they are effective against invested individuals. High explosives targeted at Thunderclasts to open them to Aluminum poisoning from a long distance would be effective and since they are so large they would make relatively easy targets for heavy artillery. Heavy artillery would probably shatter the stone Thunderclasts are made of. I still think most of you are missing the potential of metal arts especially @Frustration, but I concede that I can't convince you of what I think is possible. Oh I actually trust the Coppermind more than WoB's since it seems to be the current distillation of the WoB's. One thing about the WoB's is that any quoted could be out of date, but the Coppermind is kept more up to date and has the most current understandings of how the Cosmere works because it is constantly being updated as we go forward. So I guess you could say I reject the request not to use it as reference when possible. I would admonish each of you to examine the Scadrian powers and consider how their combination might prove useful in a conflict. True not all of them would provide direct one on one martial potential, but if we are talking about a war many would provide balance altering support for it even on Roshar.

For now Scadrial has weapons which would decimate Rosharn troops en mass and affect most mid-level and lower Radiants so even with a population advantage it might not be enough for Roshar. Also for now Rosharan Magic is restricted to Roshar so Radiants and Fused are only a threat there. We know that will change but don't know what will enable that ability to leave. No Roshar doesn't really have grenades. What they have are 2 lab accidents where as soon as they intentionally tried to combine voidlight and anti-voidlight in a gem. This is not something they are able to weaponize into a grenade at this time, and I suspect we wont ever see. What I predict we will see is Scadrian's using anti-light weapons against Rosharans at some point in the future. I don't dispute the potentially destructive force of light anti-light explosive, just the practicality of creating or using one without blowing yourself up. Brandon has been quoted saying that Aluminum is scientific anti-investiture tech and Anti-light is designed specifically to give the kill factor for Rosharan magic. There may be no analog to anti-light in any other system because no other system is wave based that we know of. both you and @therunner have both said that Fused will come back if killed by Aluminum and that is true, but in virtually every part of the Cosmere it has been shown to counter investiture. Fused use it even though they have been faced with high oath Radiants at some point of each conflict so it must be effective against Radiants even ones potentially in Shards. It seems to disrupt all forms of investiture except storing and tapping Identity for some reason. That disruptive influence is even used by Navani. Shardplate is made of spren made physical, and lesser spren have been shown to have an aversion to Aluminum so there is a small possibility that aluminum weapons might affect it especially since Shard armored Radiants are not new and yet Fused still use aluminum weapons. I am sorry but Rosharan tactics are medieval so even though they have had wars the pike line is entirely inadequate to use against more modern weapons and tactics. The more modern weapons and tactics from Scadrial are well beyond Rosharan experience. Even most Windrunners and Skybreakers could be wiped out by flack shells especially if they group together. We will just need to agree to disagree that stormlight can be countered by the right frequency of light. Navani's experiments to create anti-light that succeeded were into wave mechanics not fluid mechanics. I still think weight control will have an effect on gravity lashings, but I concede it might not have the effect I thought it did. Not sure this WoB supports your point (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569) given that Wax says that his physical abilities seem to increase to compensate for increased weight as shown by some of the feats he accomplishes. Oh and Sazed needed the extra weight to brace his pewter strength which also comes with extra mass. That makes me wonder if he could have stored some of that increased weight from his tapped strength into his Iron mind for later use. He might then be able to store some of the increased speed in steel from the interaction of greater strength and less weight. Of course he was no warrior so that may be why he never thought of that. Compounding as described by Brandon allows exponential increases of investiture with nearly unlimited potential. Exponential increased quickly reach extreme quantities. In the case of the Cosmere the increase in investiture is stated as 10x. So 1:10, 10:100, 100:1,000, 1k:10k, 10k:100k, 100k:1M. In six compoundings you have 1Mx more investiture than you started with and that would take seconds to minutes to accomplish. How much time do you think it would take at that rate to pierce the Realms? Once you are near that degree of investiture maintaining it would be easy. I give it a day of compounding effort at most. No one knows how Nicrosil-F works so my guess based on what we do know is as good as any. Again we will just need to agree to disagree because neither of us can prove the other wrong at this time. I am going on the assumption that any investiture of any kind applied to a Soulbearer becomes personal investiture. I view Soulbearers (to use blood terminology) as universal Receivers and Thug's as nearly universal donors of investiture. Pewter seems to be able to donate abilities to nearly all kinds of metal minds. Sparkers paired with almost any allomancy that increases their perception and with pewter would enable a highly capable individual. The increased mental speed would enable quick evaluation and increased perception increased information to base responses on. With pewter where the person has enhances all around physical abilities you get nearly unbeatable martial artist/warrior and pewter during less active periods can be used to fill the metal mind for when it is needed. Steel would also create a multi useful pair. With bendalloy they might be able to accurately fire from a time bubble. There are many other less obvious metal combinations that would provide support advantages in an actual system clash. I still view Nicrosil compounders like the Peter from Heroes of the Cosmere. Expose them to any investiture against them and they have that ability in spades to use moments later and they can enhance allies while overwhelming enemies. I don't expect to convince you about how Nicrosil might work. From what I hear we will see how it works in the next era as it sounds like one of the main characters perhaps the main character will use nicrosil.

The only known alloy of Atium was malatium, but because it is a God metal there was the potential for 16 alloys including atium itself. Unfortunately after Hamony took over unless he makes more it is no longer an option except perhaps Marsh's supply. Did you notice that the armored person was very heavy. That indicates to me that what ever method he used to leave Roshar the Stormlight became very heavy. I agree that it seems like there is a stalemate. Thinking about it I believe that Scadrian Magic lends itself to group cooperation, while Rosharn magic lends itself to individual combat. For example I view it like the contest between an Orca and a great white shark. Individually the great white is virtually the perfect aquatic predator and can likely take a single orca though not everytime, but orca as a pod are the apex predator capable of hunting anything in the ocean. Between Scadrial and Roshar population may be a factor, but we really don't know how the populations stack up because we only get a limited view of each and for now Scadrians have WMD's. Explosives, machine guns and such. The Radiants might be highly resistant but those in a normal army are not. I found the Steel causing burn rates to increase in the feruchemical description of steel. So a Steelrunner can enhance any metal they are capable of burning potentially more than even a Duralumin burn would do. I was a bit pressed for time yesterday so couldn't think of where I saw it. If a person is heavier then it indicates that gravity is acting on them more. Gravity lashings have a mathematical correlation to weight and greater weight manipulation requires more light. A single lash can be rendered zero g by doubling a persons weight and will expire sooner. You were right I was confusing cohesion and abrasion (I think that is what you were comparing), but cohesion might also be affected by changes in gravity. A suddenly weightless person wont sink into soft stone and suddenly much more heavy person might be able to crack any stone they have sunk into and since they have the physical abilities to handle the extreme weight and that is without any metal to pull on. Elend's solution to keeping the Atium from Ruin was to burn it, so I presume TLR could have done the same with all the metals so no investiture pools or mines could collect. Even if he couldn't have done it himself he could have fast tracked Scadrian metal arts into science that burns it to do that. Kondra with only 2 spikes could be controlled by a sufficiently powerful emotion allomancer or group of them though in era 2 and beyond you might want a nicroburst in the team to have sufficient power. Emotional allomancy is also particularly effective against broken or unbalanced people. Not infallible. Paalm only had one spike which is why Wax shooting her with another worked. Her allomancy came from the fact it was Trellium. I am also drawing from how Lord Venture reacted to Vin Rioting and Soothing him massively. Brandon seems to have come up with aluminum as a science answer to investiture everywhere and anti-light as a specific counter to Fused and Radiants given their near un-killability. With Bronze allomancy and the appropriate science discovering Radiant Kryptonite anti-light would be simple and potentially obvious. Lasers with the right frequency and rythmic pulse would anihilate Radiants and Fused. Bronze mistings could sense that. Scadrial doesn't need the same understanding of realmatics to create anti-light just an understanding of wave mechanics once they realize that Rosharan powers are fueled by light. White sand is invested by sun light. For now Scadrial hasn't reached that level of Tech but they do know to use aluminum just like the Fused do to counter investiture in their weapons. Shardplate may not protect Radiants completely from Aluminum since the Fused use it and haven't lost to the Radiants yet even though in the past other Radiants had Shardplate. F-steel effect on allomancy would be like Duralumin and Vin's range when burning Duralumin was greater as shown with her steel jump across the valley. When she burned both D&S she could detect more metal at a distance. With more power comes more range. The limit would be a sufficient anchor to use that additional pushing power and the physical strain on the body. Vin had pewter to counter some of that strain. I did say the wall would probably break because of the increased weight though if the person were patient they might run the stormlight out faster. I never said it would be easy for a compounder to open a perpendicularity only potentially possible. Nightblood might become satiated before consuming all the investiture from a compounder. We only have 2 examples of compounders, TLR and Miles. TLR extended his life 1,000 years and could dominate whole crowds of thousands with just his presence. Both he and Miles were all but un-killable capable of even surviving decapitation. TLR may not have even tried to open a Perpendicularity because his purpose was to protect the world from Ruin at his core. Other group enhancing metal arts are F-copper, F-zinc, Bronze, Tin, Chromium, Nicrosil, F-Duralumin, Electrum, and F-gold, and compounds of most of these. Nicrosil compounders might be particularly useful in a team. Potentially they could store any investiture based attack against them and compound it. The could also enhance any team members powers, and finally over charge any enemy's powers to overwhelm and drain them. They might almost be like Peter from Heroes. Imagine if an edgedancer healed them and they stored some of that to compound and use later. Of course even Terrismen aren't sure how Nicrosil works so that is me projecting possibilities. I also view Scadrian's like the Federation and Rosharan's like the Klingon. No I didn't forget that Shardplate blocks emotional allomancy I staged it in the CR where there are no shards even for upper oaths. I am not sure how well fabrials would work their either. Medallions would work since they don't rely on Spren. I think Hemalurgy even though it is a metal art is a bad idea. Though hemalurgy might end up being the Scadrian cyborg equivalent or used in conjunction with being a cyborg. I see many Rosharan powers being being used to their utmost to be hazardous to any allies on the field. Division used to the extreme could hurt their individual soldiers as much as the enemy for example. In addition Rosharan's honor encourages duels, champions, and individual combat, where most of what we have seen from Scadrial is crews, partners, and gangs working together. I think it is almost a mindset thing as much as a power thing. Yes there are powers from both that work better in groups and or individually, but I think their cultural mindsets incline them one way or the other. All the Rosharan powers you mentioned seem to be used individually, one on one or like with gravitation in small groups. We also haven't seen many Savant effects, but some of the most severe were a soulcaster turning to smoke or vines growing out of another one. Of course the savant affect with Radiants and Metalborn takes longer.

Modern Rosharan's don't yet know how to make surge fabrials like soulcasters and oathgates as of RoW. They now know what they were made of. You could say Shardplate is another fabrial and so is a shardblade since surge fabrials might have been formed in a similar fashion.

Let me say first thanks for your patience. Your right there are degrees of investiture and everyone has some degree at least so far as the spark of life. Metal opens the innate investiture beyond the spark of life for Scadrians after snapping, though as you noticed it seems to have changed Era 2, and Rosharan's connect to more than spark of life investiture by bonding a spren connecting to the Shard in specific ways. Anti-Investiture in any other form except Roshar has not been confirmed and In the WoB you linked Brandon said one of the reasons for making Anti-Light was to balance the scales and give permanent death to Rosharan's specifically. With the right frequency and the right rythm anyone can create the anti-light even scientifically. It still obeys the laws of waves. I don't remember and couldn't find what I read about increased population of metalborn or the increased buring of steel. I found them while investigating one of the responses to my posts. The steel burning faster was in a trivia section I think and it is possible it has since been edited out. Though it might have been from one of the hundreds of WoB's I have read since entering this thread. Presuming, even though I can't find it right now, that a Steel compounder twin can burn Steel faster as one of the side benefits they would have more power which would manifest as potentially more range of both sense and affect, and Iron compounder because their power is linked with their weight they also will have more potential power available for increased range and obviously need less of an anchor to do more. In both cases the majority of power would at some point go toward increased duration at relatively high force. I really don't want to argue how fast a Steel compounder could run beyond very fast or and how heavy an Iron compounder could be beyond extremely heavy both for very extended periods when necessary. Compounders by the nature of their nearly unlimited investiture have the potential to create perpendicularities, but as Brandon said it would take very extreme investiture to accomplish this and would probably require intent. Since We have barely seen compounders and at least one example didn't even know what a perpendicularity was or that it was a possiblility that easily explains why it hasn't been accomplished to our knowledge so far. Neither modern allomancy or feruchemy alone has this potential. I think from what I have read that mistings and ferings are the saturation level with more power when combined to twin and ultimate as compounders going forward. A single lashing for 100kg person would be a half lash for a 200kg person so if a person could control their weight near infinitely they could counter any amount of Lashing. Cohesion and Adhesion would also be affected by weight changes though not as obviously as Lashings. I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate. Vin never thought of trying emotional allomancy on Zane even though it might have worked. Look what happened to the people when TLR came out. Emotional allomance could be a very powerful weapon if used correctly. It just isn't one people think about for combat. It is also less predictable than a physical attack. There are hundreds of WoB's that i have seen and researched. Generally when someone tells me that they have seen something I take it as fact, Notice I rarely ask for reference, because I know re-finding something can be difficult. Even those links shared by many of your and by me are not interpreted the same by each of us and what one person thinks supports their argument another person doesn't. In the beginning when one of you said this is the way it is I took it as according to what you have read that is your interpretation, but it seems to me as if I haven't been given the same latitude in the super majority of cases. That as much as anything has been frustrating. I finally read SotD 2 and from my interpretation of the 2 groups I see Scadrian's (the ones above) and Rosharan's (the individual with the seeming ShardLaser) as at a seeming deadlock in their conflict. I get the impression after thinking about it as Orca vs Shark or Wolves vs Bear in terms of contests. It seems that Rosharan's excel at single combat, but may not be a match for the combined talents of Scadrian's. Scadrian abilities may work more effectively in groups and with some exceptions are not good in individual combat, and Rosharans are most effective individually and with some exceptions are not good in groups. Of course It could be that it was an Ire that was in the armor, since we don't know much about them yet and we never saw its face. If it was a Radiant it seems like it was a Skybreaker. The conclusion I draw from this scene from SotD 2 is that Scadrian's and Rosharan's are at a near deadlock in power even if it isn't obvious to most yet.

Its one of the reasons I recomended Arcanum unbound that and edgedancer.

I actually liked Emperors Soul better than Elantris and it is also on Sel. Once you finishe the Cosmere the Reconners are enjoyable if you like a twist on superheroes. It starts with Steelheart. Legion from my perspective shadows Shallon. As for the Alcatraz series I haven't laughed so much since I read Xanth. I plan to start Skyward series soon, perhaps I will read white sand first there isn't an audio version yet though.

From what I have read Scadrians are innately invested and metal unlocks that investiture. Rosharans are not innately invested and Spren are the key to open their investiture which is then powered by Light (storm, void, life). Though it might be speculated that all forms of investiture may have an anti form it has not been confirmed and all of you seemed very offended when I speculated so for now my point stands that only Rosharans are confirmed to be affected by anti-investiture. I also read in the WoB's that metal arts will become more prevalent on Scadrial within the population, and have hit roughly their baseline power level during alloy period. Snapping was required for Era 1 mistborn, but I am not sure during Era 2 I think it has changed. Yeah Radiants become increasingly more efficient with stormlight, but are still inefficiant containers of it even so. Scadrians also become increasingly more proficient with their power as well, but are not restrained on how powerful they can become or how they use those powers by oaths. Again you are speculating on Shardplate. Dead plate leaks and does not heal eventually shattering. Presumably living plate heals, but requires stormlight to do so. Like when Kal was fighting with a shardhelmet on his hand his stormlight healed it until it ran out. Scadrians can't yet produce light, but it is only a matter of time before they have lasers using science. With the right tuning they could kill permanently any Rosharan spren. Your right that you only need to be a brass fering to be resistant to heat based attacks, but with compounding they could have access to perpendicularities (Near infinite investiture can do that even if it does take the form of heat) and would make it more convenient to operate in a wider range of environments especially sub-zero. More massive objects require more stromlight to lash. Once lashed a sufficient increase in weight would counter the lashing. No additional weight would affect both adhesion and cohesion. Iron and steel compounders would have potentially much more range so no you don't need them but they would be more effective both in range and scale. Again compounding also potentially gives access to perpendicularities taking away some potential Rosharan advantages. Pewter compounders would definitely want to use very flexible clothing, but with enough ferichemical strength they would be massive and a single strike would be devastating to almost anyone. They might rival great shells for size. You are right that they would give up maneuverability for shear power. Nearly a limitless supply of strength in both magnitude and or duration. They could match and or exceed shardbearer level strength. Most people (execept Dalinar) have been shown to be relatively clumsy in plate, so they also give up a degree of maneuverability for power. At what speed and duration is wind resistance or air friction dangerous to health? Experiments show it is greater than Mach 1. In addition Steel speed also enhances steel burn rates potentially so much that steel pushes are greater than those achieved by Duralumin Steel pushes. That means armor piercing metal projectiles against targets even when the metal is relatively soft. Air friction would actually help with those projectiles since they could potentially be very hot as well. Compounding allows for the near infinite shard infusion of Feruchemical powers giving both much greater achievable magnitude and duration. Compounders have nearly unlimited potential in at least one ability. Feruchemy alone is always limited by how much and how long a person stores. Wax stores at about 25% whenever he is awake so 20 kg/hr for 16 hours so he can tap 20 kg/hr for 16 hours or compress it to approximately 40 kg/hr for 6 hours. A compounder could store 20 kg in 1 hours and turn that into being able to tap 200 kg for the next hour or 20 kg for the next 10 hours or some combination like 100 kg for 5 hours without loss. Compound again and the magnitude or amount of time is 10 times more. It wont take long before he can be whatever weight he wants to for any length of time and he would reap the benefits of the greater weight on his allomancy. But Wax can't actually do that since he is a Steel allomancer so is limited to storing only his own weight. We have only seen one compounder and he was always using his to heal from extreme wounds. TLR was one as well but he mostly compounded Atium for extended life and was probably already able to create a perpendicularity at will since he was a splinter. What you really need to ask is if he could have indefinitely delayed Ruin and Filling the well of Assention by using more metal arts. I was implying that Brass and Zinc might be particularly effective against Radiants since most we have seen are broken and vulnerable to emotional distress. Even stormlight doesn't seem to be enough to protect them fully. You only need to incapacitate the Radiant long enough inflict critical injuries or bind them. I notice that you both missed the wink in my comment about imagination, but what was I suppose to think. There were no new ideas coming out on a topic that has barely been scratched. It was Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic not Radiants vs Allomancers. there are literally thousands of possible combinations of powers and resonances for metal arts and hundreds of possible variations of Rosharan surges, but all you seem to be saying is Radiants can heal well and have highly effective armor and weapons oh and some radiants can fly. Yes there has been some little discussion of rock walls, and soulcasting, but so much left ignored. There are regals which can pop up out of the ground to attack their enemy, and both Radiants and Regals who can immitate nearly anyone to get the drop on their target. Slick a boulder and have it slide down the hill at your target. This is what I mean by no imagination. You all (not literal) seem to say to me that can't be done but never really present potentially amazing possible confrontations involving all the powers incredible potential. So I tease, embarrass, prod, cajole, use sarcasm and facts, I even use sources though even that gets ridiculed. What do you want? Sel if they could overcome their location limit would be a major player, just like Roshar will be once they overcome their planet bond restriction. If the Radiant is out of stormlight they probably have no plate, and dead plate out of stormlight does stop functioning. So enough damage removes any plate. Yes but if a normal person can damage plate someone with metal arts has even more potential to do so, just not all in the same way. You mean like you have been attacking me from the beginning? Or at least that is how it has seemed to me since the beginning. Only recently have I pushed back at you. You like to critique ideas but from my perspective don't have many of your own. My speculation has never been baseless and when one of you has actually shown me something that I feel reasonably proves me wrong I have admitted it. Just because you disagree with my source doesn't make my statement baseless. You like to use the word baseless when you disagree not because it is a fact. You may notice that I have been much less abrasive to those you mentioned than to you and there is a reason for that though toward the end your name proved true for me and I became more impatient with them as well. Even so I have seen you be equally dismissive of their argument until they didn't think it worth the effort to continue to argue with you. It is not really over because there is still much more to discuss within the topic as I stated. If you didn't think so why did you respond to my post? If you thought it was all discussed you should have ignored my post, but you didn't why is that? No compounders by definition have near limitless potential for investiture in at least one thing so the WoB didn't need to mention them. Other WoB's have mentioned compounding and Perpendicularities. There are so many other parts and powers to both systems that this thread has ignored that it is mind blowing that you could think this topic has been exhausted. By the way the coppermind appears to be the current distillation of the many and varied WoB's so dismissing it seems disingenuous of you when it contradicts what you think.

How shardplate works has been seen. It magnifies physical abilities like speed, strength, and agility and it absorbs physical and invested damage, but a regular hammer weilded by a normal person can cause enough damage to make it leak. It really doesn't matter if a normal person would die before that is a problem because someone with Scadrian Magic is not a normal person. Yeah I get it you ran out of imagination and scared away anyone who would disagree with you so you thought the discussion was over. ;-) Nicrosil is not the only possibility any compounder could acheive it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8920 Or coppermind Investiture. Marisi wasn't a compounder. This thread assumes war. ROW indicates there are other involved Shards. Ego? I am not sure you have any room to talk! Facts are not ego even if you disagree with them. Thanks I finally figured out the title. I would agree that we haven't really seen martial applications from the Mistborn books, but with Twinborn compounders we have individuals who can have near unlimited power in limited uses. Miles could likely out heal even 5th ideal radiants and was all but immortal with regard to damage and injury. TLR is the only other compounder we have seen and he could heal from almost anything and was 1,000 years old. If he had compounded more metals he really could have been invincible, but he didn't. Even regular twins can have enormous potential power depending on what the goal is. One thing I discovered over the weekend was that any sufficient amount of investiture will create a perpendicularity so since compounders can have nearly unlimited investiture in their metal art each and everyone has the potential to create a perpendicularity regardless what metal art they use. So much for using transportation to escape to the cognitive realm and Metal arts work everywhere in the Cosmere. I could see a Zinc or Brass compounder crush a Radiant in the Cognitive realm with emotional Allomancy since the Radiant would be without their plate to shield them. Brass compounders might want to be careful since they might incinerate before the perpendicularity opens, unless they have some way to direct the heat away from them. notice the link to Frustration. Thanks for the reference.

Does that work when you have multi quoted? Can you highlight part of the quote after using the multi quote within the response? People kept telling me to stop double posting and to use the multi-quote. Oh and the Title under your name, Rosharan Worldhopper how do you do that? Never mind i finally figured it out. To be honest I got a little frustrated with this topic since it seemed like most of the posts skewed toward Roshar and didn't want to speculate on how Scadrial might have more than a passing chance if any chance at all. Thanks for the SoD2 spoilers. Where do I find them?

My apologies in spansh (my second language) the ie suffix is more often associated with female. It is not quite cowboys more like turn of the century between cowboy and WWI. I do almost all these books in audio format since I rarely have time to just sit and read, but I do have time to listen while doing other things like driving, working, and going to bed.

how do you do the hide contents or split a comment to reply to each part? Oh and how do you put a title under your name like you have Rosharan Worldhopper?

From many of your comments I can see that my intent was grossly misunderstood. I was attempting to give viable situations where Scadrian Magic could likely beat Rosharn Magic in martial applications even if the Radiants were of high Ideals. The whole discussion to this point all but ignored Fused, and Void Bonds and most orders of Radiants. Also everyone overlooked that only Storm or Void light have a confirmed anti-investiture leaving open a Kryptonite for Rosharans that may not have an analog in other systems of the Cosmere like metal arts. One of the things I leaned heavy on what the near infinite amount of investiture available to Twinborn compounders. All Scadrian are invested, but for most their investiture needs to be triggered which has been stated as happening more and more often as time goes on in the Cosmere such that mistings, ferings, and twins will become ever more common in the future. For Scadrians they have investiture and metal gives them the key to unlock that power in certain specific ways and for some give near infinite amounts of power in narrow areas. Rosharans on the other hand are not invested until they receive a key through a bond with a cognitive entity to channel investiture. Sever the bond, Leach the light, or attack with anti light and at best they are normal people or worse dead. It also seems that most of those who can form those bonds are in some way broken people and so potentially more open to psychic or emotional attacks. Until they reach 4th ideal when they get plate they are little more than peak human potential for their physical abilities except healing which is formidable until they are out of stormlight. Stormlight constantly leaks whether it is used or not from all but the most perfect gems so must constantly be re-taken by a Radiant to maintain their abilities since they remain normal without it. Even once they reach 4th Ideal the armor only acts like powered battle armor magnifying physical abilities and durability so much defendant on stormlight to continue to function. Damaging plate is a great way to drain stormlight from a Radiant and it can be damaged with force possible from normal people and weapons. The more constant or extreme the force the more damage and the more stormlight lost in short periods of time. According to Cosmere Law any compounder has the potential to become a perpendicularity themselves so escaping to the CR is not always going to be a good strategy since Metalborn have all their abilities there and Radiants lose 2 of their greatest advantages, Shardblades and Shardplate. This is the case since any sufficiently large concentration of Investiture creates a perpendicularity and compounders have the potential for nearly unlimited investiture in one thing. Though many metal arts don't translate directly to martial ability alone, many do lend themselves to martial discoveries. A Bronze compounder would be able to detect the specific frequency of Stormlight and could work around the clock to produce anti-stormlight grenades to use or even shorten the process by working with a Zinc compounder who through mental speed could take the readings from the Bronze compounder and create schematics for any number of anti Radiant weapons based on the anti-light. A brass compounder might be impervious to any heat based division or soulcasting attack while exploiting any emotional weaknesses within the Radiant. Gravity, adhesion, and cohesion surges might be almost useless against an Iron Compounder. 1 or more gravity lash to send them flying might be useless if they can double or more their weight instantly. If the wall can't hold the weight adhesion wont hold them. Cohesion is a little trickier but if the person you slicked is suddenly much heavier perhaps all you have done is turn them into a wrecking ball since they could potentially control their movement through metal pulls without resistance. it is also hard to make someone slippery who can literally be heavy enough to sink into almost any surface. Both steel and Iron compounders could tear fabrials to pieces since they depend on metal cages. Pewter compounders would have near limitless strength so any hit with a suitably durable weapon could inflict critical damage to Radiant even in plate. I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that a battle between Scadrian Magic and Rosharan Magic is as one sided as has often been represented in this discussion. Oh an Iron compounder would probably form a perpendicularity long before they formed a steller object and a Steel compounder would probably trigger a perpendicularity long before significant percentages of light speed and maybe even before wind resistance and friction become a serious health issue. I also noticed that ideas on this stream evaporated after I focused in other areas.

I think she was asking about after Mistborn era one HOA. I didn't find any major spoilers in secret history and 11th metal filled in some gaps. I actually discovered and started mistborn in Era 2 and so when I went back and read Final empire and beyond I was expecting Vin to discover and use other powers for the whole trilogy. My favorite Cosmere powerset potential comes from Era 2 Scadrial. Once you are done with the other Cosmere books re-read Stormlight to see just how much of the other books went into it especially in Rythm of War. I know that Era 2 is suppose to be the latest in Cosmere Chronology but it seems like Rythm of War has the most cameo's from around the Cosmere relating back to everything else that has been written. Don't forget the Short stories as they fill in adventures for favorite characters. Arcanum unbound is where most of those short stories reside. Stories of many of the planets can only be discovered there. It also seems like everyone goes to Roshar where they barely leave a trace anywhere else. I also agree that Arcanum unbound shouldn't be read until you have finished Mistborn era 1 and perhaps Elantris though the Elantris short in it can stand on its own.

I was thinking more along the line of how lesser spren become plate.

I'll address Lyft first. She doesn't actually operate on stormlight, she uses Lifelight originating from cultivation not honor. That is also why she is such a good healer. What if it was 5th Ideals that formed Soulcasters (Lightweavers, Elsecallers) or ancient fabrials that mimic the surges like oath gates (Elsecallers, Willshapers). That could be why there are a limited number of Soulcaster Fabrials available. I can see Jasnah being able to teleport on the battle field or not even need an oath gate because her transportation surge matures at 5th Ideal. Some surges might even start working at range that didn't before.

Perhaps Arcanum unbound since it is an overview collection on the entire cosmere. If you liked sword nimi try warbreaker. In a way you maybe should have read read everything else before Stormlight Archive since most stories predate it chronologically except perhaps the alloy period of Mistborn. Alloy of Law would also make a good next book.