BenduLuke
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No though savantism can damage a person it is also about enhancing their ability. Both the damage and enhancement are related in most cases. Trace metals in the body because of the rules of investiture are almost impossible to push on, but outside the body if it can be sensed it can be pushed unless it is invested some how. While I waited for your response I looked it up. There is no stated restriction on trace metals outside the body and developing the ability to sense them is possible to any steel or iron misting. We also don't yet know what the downside to Iron or Steel Savantism is. A compounder would likely be a double savant eventually.
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Who says?
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Sorry Iron or Steel Savants particularly compounders could potentially reach the point that they could affect trace metals because they would have a stronger spiritual connection in that ability A savant is someone who has used an Investiture-related ability so much that it has changed their physiology; at least Allomancy, Feruchemy,[1] and Surgebinding can lead to savants. The process involves one's spirit becoming infused with Investiture, causing changes in the Physical Realm.[2] Savantism brings a person closer to the Spiritual Realm.
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All good points. The coppermind definition was changed today, but from my perspective the change causes violations in laws of conservation of momentum. The 2 people we know of who used Iron-F were limited to what weight they had to store and when they tapped the weight they lost some to conversion due to rapid tapping. For them the change in density and for most ferrings would not be appreciable or have an appreciable affect on durability beyond enabling them to move around normally. When dealing with any compounding the scale of investiture involved would produce appreciable results not seen in normal Ferrings and given that comounders are very rare the result may not have been observed yet. The coppermind does not address the affects of Iron compounding like articles for some metals do. yes some of the Be could be fused, but this idea was meant to be on the fringe of possibility, not necessarily workable now in our universe or the Cosmere and maybe it goes to far beyond the probable. A Dustbinger or Skybreaker of sufficient skill and power with the right materials could potentially use Division to ignite an atomic explosion, but could either survive that use of Division? If so how? A Nicrosil ferring paired with most metals has the potential for incredible power. Paired with steel they could feruchemically tap steel pushes. With Bend alloy they could tap time jumps increasing the speed of the jump, radius of the jump, the length of the jump, and perhaps even anchor the bubble on themselves to carry with them. They could tap any one allomantic power feruchemically. Strength, senses, time, emotions. Only aluminum and duralumin would likely seem to have no tappable effect. Pewter would offer multiple physical abilities that could be used feruchemically. A nicrosil pairing could be one of the most powerful twinborns around. The cannon would still work better on the ground, but its best use would be to target things that are not on the ground. Kaladin still had his feet on the ground, but Pursuer was more vulnerable because he was suspended above the ground by adhesion. (both the adhesion and the R-Lashing were very powerful) Of course if the investiture of R-Lashings does last a while after contact then R-Lashing guided missiles would open up some very dangerous weapons.
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That is why I asked if there were metals in the Crem. In addition compounders build up an increased connection to the spirit web in their specialty so over time they would develop increased ability or strength over time. Wax because of the connection the BoM gave him could affect trace metals so the potential is there and might be built to as one became a savant.
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I have been looking at this article for some time and it seemed to me that neither Sazed or Wax was able to store enough mass to make an appreciable difference in density because they could only store weight 1 to 1 and tapped it with some regularity thus removing it. However if either had been an Iron compounder that that would have been a different story. Their density would have increased sufficiently through allomantic multiplication to make a difference in penetration and durability. So the correction @Starwatcher made actually muddies the issue. The issue isn't whether tapping weight would make a person more resistant to damage, but whether a regular Iron ferring could store enough weight to make a difference. The other problem with tapping attributes is you only get back all of your storage if you tap it at the rate you stored it, but both Wax and Sazed tapped it much faster than they stored it converting some and perhaps more than some of the mass into the force to more rapidly recover the weight. Instead of changing what the article said it may have been better to include a potential compounding section as a special circumstance. The corrections @Starwatcher made violate conservation of momentum laws. Some degree of damage resistance would need to happen to Steel compounders to compensate for tapping large amounts of speed from their metalminds stored though compounding. Again a Ferring wouldn't necessarily have that issue due to the limited amount of speed they could store. The problem with Iron/Steel compounding is one of scale not a problem with the definition with regard to regular ferrings.
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Fair enough. I don't recall that excerpt. Era 2 scadrial can have steel compounders capable of moving at super sonic speeds who are capable of propelling devastating metallic incendiary rounds which could both neutralize Radiant healing and cause them to explode. That could be accomplished with a layered Potassium Magnesium Aluminum bullet unjacketed in most cases and jacketed in the case of use against armor. Lerasium Misborn are generally stronger but compounders are specifically stronger in their area. If you can't see how a information storage device helps I can't enlighten you. Right and they can choose Scadrians at any time too. Yes and fabrials allow anyone to use Rosharan magic so what is your point. Both Fabrials and Medalions are limited
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one lash would propel a person about 30ft/s squared so would push them about a mile away in about 65 seconds. A rock propelled by 10 lashings would be traveling as fast as some bullets in less than a second. Unlike firearms in which bullets start slowing as soon as they exit the barrel the rock doesn't slow its acceleration until it runs out of stormlight so even a pebble could carry a person 1 mile into the sky in 65 seconds if it didn't just punch right through to begin with and with only 1 lashing. 10 to 40 lashings are entirely doable to create effective projectiles, and only aluminum alloys couldn't be used on their own (aluminum alloys are not affected by invested abilities). 1 lashing = 1G acceleration. 10 G's is the limit highly trained pilots can withstand for a very short length of time (seconds).
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No I said often one on one Rosharan magic is capable of more force, but Scadrian magic has more capability. In the end they seem to be equally strong to me. Of course a Lurcher or Coinshot with enough mass could affect trace metals. FTL is due to scientific application of Allomancy. What we have seen is that Scadrial is on the verge of major scientific breakthroughs at this point which will be added to copperminds since that is their method of permanently storing knowledge. Yeah Timber picked Regals who matched their ideals even though they were the enemy of the other Radiants at the time. Assuming a Spren wont pick a person from Scadrial just because they are on the other side of conflict with Rosharan's is an invalid assumption based on the rules governing Spren. For example a Highspren might decide that a Scadrian has a more just cause than the Rosharan's and thus bond the Scadrian. in a contest between Rosharan magic and Scadrian magic, Rosharan is open to everyone even Scadrians and Scadrian magic is not open to anyone else so Rosharan's could end up facing practitioners of their own magic and Scadrian magic.
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to achieve ballistic speeds you probably only need 30 or 40 lashings. 1 lashing about 10m/s^2 If you have a short distance maybe your projectile only pushes your target away. like way up in the sky.
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Yes it is Rosharan vs Scadrian magic. One of the differences in the magic systems is that Rosharan magic is granted by bonding another sentient entity through oaths to ideals, where as Scadrian magic is inborn and not naturally available to other races. So Scadrians could bond spren, but Rosharans are not born with mistborn or feruchemical abilities so cannot inherit them, and acquiring them by hemalurgy would likely break their oaths and thus lose their radiant abilities. Of course strength of pull equates to power. The greater their mass the greater their power and the more metal they can perceive, pull on, and the stronger they can pull on all the available metal. Brandon has said that Scadrial will have FTL Tech so they will have more advanced things than we have already seen. With the advent of southern tech it wont be long until copperminds will be open to everyone, and they already do operate similar to computers. for that matter all Feruchemy operates like computers giving pointers into the spirit realm where the power or information is. Whats your point. Both Eshoni and Venli were the enemy and they bonded a Spren. The reason Spren started bonding anyone is because Odium was returning and they opposed him even though they didn't trust the humans much and trusted singers less. Or did you miss that part?
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Nor would they need to use 2,000 reverse lashings. Kal didn't come anywhere near that to rip off Pursuers head. I didn't actually mention 2,000. Reverse lashings use less stormlight compared to effect than any other WR ability, To be sure I am clear RL's have a stronger effect with less stormlight, but are limited by whether the pulled object is on the ground and function only while the WR is touching the surface pulling.
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Of course Scadrians store information in copperminds like we do in computers. An Iron compounder would be strong enough just by virtue of mass. Venli was the enemy and is a radiant having bonded a Spren. I could see Dockson becoming a Dustbringer, and Ham becoming a Willshaper, and Breeze becoming a Lightweaver, given their character and ideals. Spren have no ideal saying a person must be from Roshar to bond with them even if Rosharan's are fighting someone from elsewhere. Venli is proof that Spren will even bond Regals if they hold to the Spren's ideals.
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Steel does conduct electricity (beta radiation) though not as efficiently as some metals, with the added benefit of working as a metal mind. With properly advanced tech a person could take advantage of that. Steel is also one of the best shields against radiation. Using deuterium and tritium would be more likely to lead to fusion and yield lithium another metal. The beryllium mirror perhaps on the chest is the key to the crushing force. A lurcher can only pull and must be pulling against something to ignite the fusion. Pulling the H^2 or H^3 against the beryllium provides the pressure from the other side and it being a mirror it will reflect and focus the light generated by the fusion. Beryllium is also very resistant to heat and may at least in part be replenished by the fusion since the fusion of H & Li or perhaps H^2/3 might produce Be which has just been pressed into the Be mirror. The mirror would need to be concave. A Be mirror would likely reflect neutrons as well though many would be consumed in producing more Be. The coppermind I shared with you says that in reality it is density that is increased, but Wax never stored enough weight for his density to change appreciably much with regard to piercing threats. His metal minds also probably didn't have the capacity to store enough to make a noticeable difference in his density. Remember he could only get out what he could put in 1 to 1, but an Iron compounder who puts in 1 kg can burn that and produce 10 kg to store maybe more if they flare. 10 burns and stores 100 to 1,000 to 10,000 until the armor capacity is reached. Still even with his limited Iron ability his pushes were above average. Reverse lashing have the weakness that the Radiant must remain in contact with the item pulling. Kal used a reverse lashing on Pursuers head by touching the ground to draw its head off its shoulders. Though we might find later that because of conservation of momentum a reverse lashing placed on a pebble could act like a guided missile while the stormlight lasted. Reverse lashings are most effective on things that are not grounded like arrows in flight and appear to only work so long as the surface the item is drawn to is in contact with the windrunner (unique to them), but it does use stormlight more efficiently and has the lowest power output over time. At least that is what the coppermind says.
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It is just common sense. If the allomancer is strong enough, they can pull on metal in stone. They have been shown to be able to pull on metal in a person's blood. Argument 2 makes no sense based on what I have seen in the books. Spren pick people who share their values. Highspren pick people who are Just and confident, Honorspren: Protective and leaders, Peakspren: Dependable and Resourceful, Reachers: Resolute and Builders, Inkspren: Wise and Careful, Cryptic: Creative and Honest, Mistspren: Learned and Giving, Cultivationspren: Loving and healing, Ashspren: Brave and Obedient. Don't tell me there aren't Scadrian's who exemplify each and everyone of those qualities since we both know there are characters in the mistborn books that do. Only bondsmiths would be difficult because there can be only 3 and we already have 2, but if a Scadrian were Pious and Guiding they might still bond Nightwatcher at this time. It's not that hard to adjust for differences in atmospheric content and gravity. Besides by the time Scadrial crosses the stars to reach Roshar they will have FTL level tech. What makes you think they haven't been updating their copper libraries? Scadrial also has the advantage that either gender can read. Just because the stories haven't highlighted scholars on Scadrial doesn't mean there aren't any just as or even more brilliant than Navani and with the advantage of 100's of years more advanced technology to start with. Brandon has already said Scadrial will have FTL tech so E=mc^2 is on their horizion and based on current tech levels much sooner than on Roshar. Yes having an intuitive understanding of vector physics does help fast track science. Scadrial went from medievil tech to early 20th century tech in 100 to 200 years. That is about 1000 years faster than we did it. Roshar on the other hand is barely at medievil levels and have been for around 3,000 years with some exceptions where some degree of fabrial science have replaced mechanical science. That is to be expected since their magic skews their perception of the physical world. I suspect that once Scadrian's are exposed to Fabrial science they will absorb it near effortlessly and exceed it rapidly because of their much deeper, broader, and more solid understanding of the physical laws of the Cosmere along with the metalic laws.
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First I will address why steel armor. Because steel can act as a metal mind for a steel compounder. More steel = more storage. Other compounders might use other metals. I agree that Windrunners could create railgun effects. So could coinshots, and Skybreakers and with the right mechanical system Lurchers. A little sooner than I was going to discuss this but here is the idea behind Iron compounders having the potential to create fusion. First assuming Hydrogen is treated as a metal it would make the concept more workable. It seems to me that coinshots and lurchers get an exponential return in their pushes and pulls based on their mass. An Iron compounder with Iron armor acting as their metalmind would have a vast store of density/mass to tap. The goal behind generating small fusion reactions would be to release EM energy that could be directed and focused by a Berylium mirror which is both extremely heat resistant and can be reflexive. You would probably want to use deuterium or tritium as the H fuel. With the increased density would come proportional strength as well to handle the increased weight in at least bones and muscles, and perhaps even the skin if the increased density is great enough. this might come in the form of a chest laser like Iron man. Here is the link for liquid pulls. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iron The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight, An especially skilled Allomancer can Pull on individual parts of a metal object.[6] Ironpulling liquid metals works similarly to a ferrofluid. One other offensive weapon in a Steel compounder's or coinshots arsenal are incendiary rounds. Store potassium rounds in an oil solution in the armor perhaps with a soft metal jacket depending on the target. inside the potassium is a magnesium layer, and inside that is an alluminum layer. Push the projectile into the target. the oil gets stripped off on entry into soft flesh or the soft metal gets stripped off as it pierces armor. Potassium exposed to air or water ignites at high temperature and ignites the magnesium which can ignite even water, and finally the aluminum is ignited by the extreme heat of magnesium and also inhibits invested healing at the same time. All this creates an explosive reaction in anyone it penetrates with bits of aluminum in the surrounding tissues. Very nasty simple thermite like projectile. So long as the potassium is in oil or encased in soft metal it is inert.
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Along with metallurgy comes chemistry. In addition some of the metal arts deal with an understanding of vector physics. There are vast stores of scientific knowlege in copperminds and scholar researchers working with that copper library. I wasn't aware of the environmental differences between Scadrial and Roshar. Given what you said Scadrial's explosives and projectiles would be that much more effective. Those same cat 5 hurricanes might provide the key to convert investiture for Scadrian's, but they could be a bit of a shock in the beginning except that Scadrian's will likely arrive at Roshar from space and may be in a position to observe them before landing. F-zinc is a very versatile metal to combine with. A full feruchemical charge can be tapped almost instantly if needed or over an extended time. Metal pushes and pulls appear to be proportional to mass/weight/density, such that the more mass you have the stronger the pushes or pulls are. The use of those pushes or pulls also seems to be exponentially greater than the mass of the person employing them as shown by the fact that coinshots can launch themselves dozens of feet into the air and lurchers can pull themselves similarly all without duralumin. For a steel compounder velocity replaces mass for increasing pushes and Iron compounders can have insane mass to back up pulls limited by the surface presure beneath them if they are on the ground. All things fall at the same rate. Does crem have a metallic component? If so an Iron compounder could spread out the surface area supporting their increased weight then slingshot out of the hole once they store the weight. I suspect that once Scadrial gets a look at fabrials with their knowledge of metals and metallurgy they will quickly advance in fabrial creation and use. At that point both Roshar and Scadrial will be in a run away positive scientific feed back loop where every advance in Fabrials on Roshar will catapult scadrian science ahead followed by Rosharan advances and so forth. Honestly though I actually think Scadrial and Roshar will be on the same side in the end combating a greater menace, perhaps Trell. For the most part Scadrian magic individually has less raw power than Rosharan magic individually, but is more widespread and endemic in the population, and is also more versatile. Feruchemy is actually one of the weaker forms of investure on its own, but when combined with allomancy can serve as a very high yield battery.
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Again you make the mistake of comparing cultures which are at the same tech level in your example, but this is not the case with Scadrial and Roshar. Their tech levels are centuries apart not years or decades. The innate nature of Scadrian magic is grounded in physical laws operable everywhere. Roshar's magic only works under certain conditions in certain places at least until the work out how to convert their power source. Rosharan's lose everywhere they have a conflict with Scadrian's except on Roshar. There has been no indication that Stormlight investiture resists emotional attacks, in fact the opposite seems to be true. The most effective way to remove either Kal or Shallon has been emotionally. Nothing says that Scadrian's need to sneak through enemy lines to bond Spren. Nothing except you opinion says Spen would view Scadrian's as enemies. Spren are attracted to people who exemplify their values so if a Scadrian exemplifies the value that Attracts a Spren they could become a Radiant regardless if there is a war between Roshar and Scadrial.
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Thanks everyone for all the responses. Just so you know I never considered Steel compounders capable to create Fusion, Iron on the other hand in my mind could be a possibility. I am using the term laser with steel compounders loosely. More accurately it would be a particle beam used to split atoms and you are right it would take incredible control, but the odds are that a compounder would become savant and has the potential to have that the degree of skill. Without that high degree of skill it would become a dirty bomb. Alpha particles are almost harmless. Beta particles can be conducted by steel and at the tech level to consider atomic explosions safe guards could be installed to avoid negative consequences in tandem with steel pushes. If Hydrogen is not considered a metal by Brandon that still leaves Lithium as a fuse-able material for Iron compounders. Steel stores speed feruchemically. Where I go out on a limb is the idea that the spiritual connection to Steel by a Steel compounder might enable them to store steel pushes in steel turning it into super steel with Duralumin like potential over longer periods. Brandon has said that Iron/Steel allomancers can push on metal in gas, liquid, and solid forms. Give us examples of what you think those projectile fabrials might be capable of? I would love to hear more on that.
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Let me say first I loved your synopsis and your speculation. I did mention that one of the limits of Twinborn is the storage capacity of the metal, and given that 1 or 2 arm bands on Wax allowed him to store enough weight to crash through a floor while in a time bubble (that gave the increased weight time to work on the floor), a full suit of Iron armor would allow for a massive storage capacity and being invested would be resistant to shards. Steel running hits a max threashold at the point of the friction and windresistance damage to the runner long before the speed of light but still past the speed of sound (775 mph at sea level) and with steel armor used as a metal mind much faster for longer and again resistant to shards. For that matter any compounder could have shard resistant metal armor. Modern war no longer uses strict battle lines and if they did it would leave them sitting ducks to modern weapons thus Sun Tzu's tactics only partially translate to success and only in the abstract. I think you are partially on to something with Electrum. It allows one to see their own future and if you could see far enough you might anticipate what someone else would do. One interesting combination could be Electrum-A with Tin-F since Electrum gives a future sense and Tin can store any sense (Bronze, Iron, Steel, etc...) it is not restricted to the normal 5. Electrum armor would be nearly invulnerable to Lasers because of how reflective it is. The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up. I think Scadrial would embrace Rosharan science much faster due to their more advanced state and more grounded magic. I have to agree that emotional allomancers could prove to be a challenge to Rosharan's Rosharan's are unlikely to use Hemalurgy due to their oaths, especially Bondsmiths, but no such restriction exists for Scadrian's. I would expect to see a metal born being granted Radiant status at some point, but find it far less likely to happen in reverse since Spren are attracted to those who exemplify their values regardless of origin.
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This looks like something interesting to explore.
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The purpose of this topic is to project the most extreme abilities of any investiture in the cosmere based on the currently referenceable material. Ideas which can be logically defended are welcome regardless how outrageous. As promised a coinshot laser would likely be produced by a Steel twinborn compounder after the discovery of heavy metals and at least some experiments in nuclear science on Scadrial. This individual would likely be able to detonate nuclear explosions using metal pushing and heavy metals and would need the speed of a steelrunner to avoid serious injury. Using metal pushing they could likely push small particles of radioacive metal forming a type of laser or electromagnetic particle beam at high velocity. Due to a strong spiritual affinity with steel because of being a steel twin it might be possible that they could store steel pushes and speed in a metal mind for use feruchemically yielding steel pushes and speed to exceed duralumin assisted allomancy. The nuclear particle beam could be used on its own or in concert with radioactive spheres in battle situations to inflict massive damage. The nuclear laser could be used to split atoms in a plutonium, uranium or like metal to create atomic or nuclear explosions. Due to the ability to create steel bubbles they could also probably shield themselves from the radiation of nuclear material on or near them. With fine enough control they could also perform nuclear laser surgery. They could be outfitted in steel biomechanical armor that could act as a metal mind for both their allomantic and feruchemical abilities. What do you think of this idea or what extreme use of investiture do you envision?
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Realistically no one has Lasers yet, but Scadrian's will likely have them first. Making a ladder is a far cry from a large barrier wall with ceiling. I can only imagine how much stormlight that might take. I was only referring to Superman's flying ability, but someone with the Illumination surge might be able to kill him with the right em radiation (Kryptonite frequency). An Iron compounder might be able to allomantically initiate H fusion long before they reach earth mass as well. you really wouldn't need much fusion to generate that kind of em blast. With a little lithium gas fused you could replenish the Berylium mirror used to reflect and focus the H em blast. I say H em blast because it would likely emit radiation from Microwaves to x-ray with some gamma emissions. Microwave being most immediately dangerous to us bags of mostly water or anyone wearing metal armor. Jupiter actually does have a low level of fusion at its core, so does earth, but the heat generated and the amount of heavy atoms nearby keeps them both from blazing like a star. Heat in the case of Jupiter keeps the H atoms apart enough that they don't fuse often, and Heavy elements in earths core don't fuse and keep H separate enough that they don't fuse often either. More Fission in earths core due to the heavy metals.
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Steel compounder pushes a plutonium sphere and bombards it with a nuclear laser, and tah-dah nuclear bomb. runs away very fast from far away. The thicker they make it the slower they move and the more of it gets knocked down around their ears by artillery and the more time mines can be laid to detonate as the cross them. Getting to space and having space age tech is vastly different. Superman could reach space no matter when he lived, but the weapons available to him would be limited by when he lived. The Iron compounder only needs enough density to use his metal pulls to smash H atoms together, and he only needs to hold it long enough to do that. Even starting to sink into the earth takes time.
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Where do the Elsecallers soulcasting a nuke? I don't see that. Theoretically an Iron compounder could have the density of a star or even greater depending on how much iron it would take to spiritually store that amount of density. Yeah but the British weapons were little more advanced than the american weapons. Not enough to make much of a difference. Stone wall? artillery can drop from over a wall. Mines can be planted in the path. Troops can shoot from elevation. The wall can be demolished back on the troops behind it. all of that can be done at a safe distance. No I assume they are unprepared for modern weaponry that can kill enmass. Thats before we start seeing space age tech on Scadrial. Roshar is hundreds of years from developing space age tech where as Scadrial is maybe decades away.
