Ashbringer

One of the odd things about RoW was how… seemingly disinterested Odium was in Urithiru. That might be me just misremembering, but he was definitely much more focused on Kaladin, while the siege of Urithiru’s was Raboniel’s plan and Raboniel seems barely in line with Odium’s plans anyway. It’s odd he didn’t commit to this. Right. Kind of a question of, when push comes to shove, how much control Odium has over Sja-Anat and Sja has over her Enlightees. The Azimir spren seem corrupted differently than the Kholinar ones, and it seemed like Sja-anat could have killed the Radiant group in Oathbringer if she’d wanted (or been forced) to. Hard to tell with Alethkar, it’s pretty well conquered at the moment and had Unmade wandering around for a long while before the war even started. And it’s not just the Silver Kingdoms that the Fused would rule, it’s… I think every full country except Emul, and Emul doesn’t have an Oathgate and notably has been declining for some time even without the war. A bit better if Dalinar wins, but even still Alethkar’s got the most corrupted Oathgate. I mean… god of fury Perhaps I should revise: it doesn’t accomplish much for what Odium/Rayse really wants, but Rayse did an excellent retaliation job of putting Dalinar in a lose/lose situation. Dalinar also managed to terrify Nale and basically everyone except Odium and Ishar; I don’t think Malata would be too much to handle. (Also Dalinar dying to a random assassin in Part 3 would be rather narratively unsatisfying, but that doesn’t mean Taravangian shouldn’t try.)

So, this isn't really a Wind And Truth theory, but it ties a lot to the ending of Rhythm of War and the Old Magic Gods certainly help the idea. Before RoW, I had thought that the Sibling would have been a greater spren of Odium that had been "corrputed" by Honor/Cultivation back to the good guys. That's obviously not what's going on, and Rhythm of War gave a much greater image of the Sibling being the spren of Urithiru, but I wanted to try and type up what I think is happening. (I'm also unused to typing up theories, so I'm probably not citing everything, just any particularly interesting WoBs.) The short of it, is I think the Sibling is more than a spren of Honor and Cultivation, but one of the first to be created artificially. The Other Bondsmith Spren We know a few interesting things about the other Bondsmith Spren, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. We know from WAT Chapter 4 that the Nightwatcher came from one of the Old Magic Gods - the ancient spren of Adonalsium - being essentially commandeered or converted by Cultivation. We're pretty sure that the Stormfather is similar - I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated anywhere that the Stormfather predates Honor, but the highstorms definitely do, and the Stormfather likely does as well. The Sibling has not been so mentioned. In fact, we don't really know when the Sibling was born/made. But I think it's implied that they are different. They also don't seem overtly like the spren of anything - the Stormfather's obviously the spren of the highstorm, and the Nightwatcher could be a spren of stone or even a more nature spren that Cultivation took over. Is the Sibling the spren god of spren? That could make some sense, but I don't really think so. (I think that's what BAM is, but that's another story.) Urithiru Notably, we have some evidence that the Sibling came much, much later to Roshar, with the assumption that they came with Urithiru. That's because we know it was built, from one of the TWoK epigraphs: "Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor." This happened far, far in the past; before Nohadon's time, and well before Ahariethiam, but well after humanity's arrival on Roshar. The Sibling insists that it is the Tower, and that seems to be backed up with what's seen by Navani. It doesn't make much sense to me that the Sibling would have already existed, then been placed into the Tower and bound permanently. It also doesn't make sense that, before the Recreance, the Sibling would have always needed a Bondsmith in order to generate Towerlight and function. One other thing: there's a WoB that Urithiru was beyond the scope of Radiants on their own to create. This is said in reference to the Dawncities (and likely the Dawnshards), but it also is probably going to come up later. There's also many things we notice about Urithiru. The first is the gemstone pillar - thousands of gemstones placed in sequence, including a Suppression Fabrial but who knows what else. This seems to be the Tower's - and the Sibling's - heart. A little odd, but not that odd - the Sibling certainly seems like a manifested fabrial. But we don't hear a lot about the metals around old manifested fabrials, even though Urithiru should be full of them (and has some that we still don't understand, such as manifested + conjoined fabrials). Fabrials and Big Spooky Machines A few things on fabrials I do want to mention. In the Rhythm of War epigraphs, many rules about fabrials are mentioned, but one that sticks out are logicspren. Using the proper metals/gemstones/etc, trapped logicspren can be made to glow bright (1) or dull (0) given certain stimuli. This is commented to lead to several complex mechanisms, but it also heavily implies that logicspren can be used to create logic gates. If you know a few basics about computers, really all you need to create a computer is a few input->output gates: AND, OR, NOT, and maybe a few of the more complex ones like XOR. There's also a WoB that you can use fabrials to make a simple, analog computer. It wouldn't be very efficient, because it'd need to be huge (think Minecraft Redstone computers, which is what happens when you can't scale down your logic gates). But it works. There's also another Cosmere principle in play, one that we most recently saw in some of the Secret Projects (mostly Yumi) - that anything with sufficient power, left on its own, develops at least a rudimentary mind. This is usually said to be sentient, not sapient, but in at least one case Sanderson mentioned that one could become sapient. I think that both of these are what the Sibling is. Urithiru was constructed, including a massive array of fabrials (either with or without spren - I'm suspecting with) that could assemble into a computer that could control the various affects of the Tower. This massive fabrial was then directly powered with Towerlight by Honor and Cultivation, and the power of that much Light in the computer's systems led to the creation (or Awakening) of a new, powerful Bondsmith spren, the Sibling. A Few Answers I like this theory because I think it explains a few things about the Sibling that I didn't think made sense. The Sibling's Control Throughout Rhythm of War, and the few intro parts of Wind and Truth, we see how impressively the Sibling can control Urithiru. But... it's not really that much control. Even once the tower fully reactivates, the Sibling's main defenses are the suppression fabrial and other powerful-but-preestablished defenses. Why? Because the Sibling's a computer - while they may be sapient at this point, they only have a few predetermined ways to interact with the world. They need time (and probably outside help, like Melishi) to gain new functions. The Recreance and the Sibling's Slumber Another thing that's unusual about the Sibling is that they were bound at the time of the Recreance, and yet seem to be... not fine, but not the same as the other deadeyes. I think that's because of a few things. The main one is the Sibling losing their Towerlight. This theory isn't really about why that happened - BAM's Binding is still a very complicated thing, and Honor dying at the same-ish time doesn't help - but rather what affects that would have. If the Sibling is essentially a computer running on Towerlight, losing access to that Towerlight would be like unplugging the actual PC. The Sibling was left on emergency power, still able to let some parts function but not the majority of their mind. The Sibling later woke up, of course, but I think I know why - because the Coalition had started dumping Stormlight into their systems, through the Oathgates and a variety of other fabrials. There's also the fact the Sibling was bound - or at least, was bound when BAM was bound and the cascade of events that began the Recreance started. My theory for that's pretty simple. The honorspren in Lasting Integrity think that the Sibling ended their bond before the Recreance; I think it's more likely that Melishi was the one who died, instead of the Sibling. Raboniel's Unmaking It also doesn't make much sense to me that Raboniel would be able to turn the Sibling into an Unmade, given access to the gem pillar. Sja-Anat, sure, but Raboniel, a simple Fused? That seems beyond her power level, as it seems like the Fused have fairly little Investiture compared to other cosmere beings (ie Elantrians, or Yumi). I think the reason it could work on the Sibling is by flooding their system with Voidlight. Again, if the Sibling is the Light within the systems, replacing that Light with Voidlight would have a dramatic effect on the Sibling. There's many other mysteries with the Sibling, of course. But I think this does explain a great many of them. First theory, so let me know how I did!

One of the ways I've thought that the 10-year timeskip could end up making sense is if Odium picks a champion who Dalinar is unable to kill, but same vice versa, so they just end up sitting on top of Urithiru for those 10 years until Dalinar finally dies of old age or exposure or something. (I keep thinking Dalinar is older than 55.) Adolin would be a good candidate for that - I really don't think Dalinar would kill Adolin. I don't think Adolin would kill Dalinar either - it would take a lot to go that far, the Thrill's out of commission, and it's pretty hard to threaten a 4th Oath Radiant even with Mraize's resources. (Then again, it's also pretty hard to kill a Feruchemist... or a Herald...) I am wondering if Dalinar's now going to climb the stairs of Urithiru, only to meet Gavinor saying that an old man said it's finally time for sword practice...

I do want to point out - this Shadesmar invasion fleet, if nothing else, has been brewing for several months. This isn't T-Odium's plan, it's Rayse's. Taravangian may have altered it, as he seems to be playing things closer to the chest, but this strategy of blitz the capitals to hold most of Roshar seems to be more Rayse's winning more territory than anything else. It was his idea to hold the Contest so soon I do think controlling all the Oathgates is enough of a desire in and of itself, for either reason. But I don't know if that would be entirely the reason - it seems like Sja-anat could similarly disable the Oathgates, if she can touch Azimir's without them knowing. (Does she want to is a question, but I'd think Odium could force her to perform a more complete sundering like what was supposed to happen in Kholinar, as opposed to the subtlety we see in Azimir.) It could also be that Odium's no longer playing by the "spirit" of the agreement (or is in a twisted way), and capturing the capitals of Azimir and Thaylanah would count as capturing the entire country. If that's the case, win or lose, Odium's forces would "currently hold"... basically all of Roshar, save Emul and Urithiru (and maybe a few other places, like Tukar and Aimia). Actually, with both this offensive and the several RIP-Stormfather theories, I'd imagine Rayse was quite happy with his end of the deal. He's not getting off Roshar, but I doubt he was expecting to. But if he wins his offensives and the contest he's: killing the main holder of Honor, winning most of Roshar, and winning a very dangerous and powerful champion for the future. Taravangian's goals are likely going to be more along forcing Dalinar to break the agreement, which would actually let him leave and maybe get the rest along the way. I'm still in the camp that Taravangian!Odium's going to be... mostly better in the long run than a freed Rayse would be, both due to Intent and inexperience. But Taravangian's more dangerous in the short run, because he's much more likely to actually get free.

This might work, but it also might depend on how Copperclouds / Aviar / similar things work. Does it deaden just the Life-sense of the person, or does it also deaden the other responses that might be given around that person (like elevator activation or footsteps)? The Sibling also does mention that they only see what they're paying attention to. Could also be something the Sibling isn't concerned about, until directly asked - and Shallan doesn't know most of what the Sibling can do. Spren think differently than humans (the Sibling even more so) and the characters have other things to be thinking about.

Tossing a WoB into the mix: Specifically the parts about “Charged Terms” and “primal forces attached to bits of personality”. Shards like Ruin seem fairly in tune with those two mixing - Ruin is the personality of wanting to destroy and break things down, and its powers do that. Other Shards are weirder. (Even Preservation, who’s magic system is both non-preserving and very active/combative for a Shard that seems to want perfect stasis.) Odium could very well be one where the “primal force” and “personality” don’t mix - the power has the abilities to have powerful futuresight (or break Connections), but the Intent is just based on fury and hate. I might honestly do a writeup on how the Shards seem to fail at or clash with their Intents in odd ways.

Taravangian's in a very similar state to the ascendant Vin, at this point - he's bound by prior agreements, but he's much less bound by Intent, which gives him the chance to do all sorts of interesting things. How long that lasts could depend on several things. But he seems to be committing to doing some Odious things.

I think seeing how busy I’m going to be, I’ll stay as a pinch hitter. But also I’d be happy to help out with writeups!

I’m team Ambition. Is Yolen hard to find, or just hard to access? One of my (unrelated) theories somewhat-relies on it having hefty time dialation.

These also seem quite different than the Corrupted Oathgate spren in Kholinar, who were black and red, and weirdly stretched out. That might be Sja-anat experimenting.

The timing on this is slightly odd. Shallan mentions (I think) that the Shadesmar invading force would have had to be en route for months. That tracks with the plan to corrupt the Oathgate spren and invade Azimir. But how does that track with the singer’s original plan of capturing Urithiru? That also shut off the Oathgates, and was seemingly planned to be permanent. Corrupting the Oathgate spren might have been then necessary, but it feels like seperate plans. Maybe these singers were supposed to go into the captured Urithiru - and then everywhere - but after Sja-anat’s fragile loyalty, the tower reactivating, and the original Ten Day Contest agreement, the fleet was reordered to here. Or maybe this was already Odium’s (Rayse’s) plan, to capture significantly more territory before the Contest and leave the timeframe so the Coalition can’t retaliate.

I can probably play starting Friday but I’ll have to wait and see then!

Well, I love the look of this game but it starts mid uni prep I’ll pinch hit for now. Maybe could move to player, more likely to move to Spectator. We’ll see.

Yessssss join usssss But yeah, what Lego Mistborn said, that’s the upcoming game. Can also ask around in The Art of Game Creation or in the GM Signups and Discussion Thread. We’d love to have you! Very much is forum mafia / Town of Salem / Mafia Universe type things, usually set in some Sanderson universe, but also pretty laid back and for fun.

I was thinking about this the other day - or more specifically, what happens with the sun there. Is it just there because people expect there to be one? Could you reach it? I have this image of it being absurdly small. I think my expectations would be something like video game logic, where the sky is a “skybox” and you can’t actually reach anything, and at a certain point you’re just making a number go up. Except Shadesmar is non-Euclidian so even the height may not go up. The entire concept of the Cognitive is that people are really bad at imagining distances between planets; I’d wager that stays true for how high “up” or “down” you can go.

My interpretation of that was she was re-swearing the same (2nd) Oath, but this time to Testament instead of to Pattern. She doesn’t summon the many armorspren that you’d expect from the 4th Oath (though whether those would show up in Shadesmar would be an unknown question, I suppose). Shallan’s Oaths are weird, though. Hard to tell what’s going on with her.

Chemoarish or Cusicesh? Chemoarish specifically hasn't shown up, and the Wind (or other ancient Old-Magic Spren) may very well have become Unmade. But the Unmade Yelig-Nar is also specifically called "Blightwind" for no perceptible reason. Wind and Truth previous-interlude-preview-reading spoilers:

This thread should maybe be a more official thread, but I'm not sure where else to put it, so Typo Thread it is. In the Chapter 11 preview, Shallan mentions the face in the beads as one "which Ketek had identified as Ba-Ado-Mishram". I'm assuming that's supposed to be Kelek?

Just a note on this - we don't actually know that this is Ba-Ado-Mishram speaking, or that she's currently capable of speaking. Could be some other actor trying to get Shallan off the path to unbind BAM. Could be protections placed by Melishi to dissuade anyone from undoing his work. Could just be Shallan's broken psyche manifesting itself, or her reaching for Fortune and what she expects from BAM. Could be BAM herself, but trapped in the moment of her actual binding, and the rage she feels at that. Could also just be BAM herself. A Spren heavily tainted by the power of Odium and Passion and Hate, then stuffed in a location beyond space and time for over four thousand years, isn't necessarily going to be the most rational.

You know how sometimes characters get a lot of extra character development right before they die? Teft? Elhokar? A host of others? Imagine that for every character. (Not actually, but it's definitely a thing that happens right before a turn for the worst - and also a thing that happens when the author wants us to expect one.)

A few things of note: It could actually be the Dor, if only for mechanical sense instead of textual sense - the compass presumably actually points at something, and we know there's an extensive density of Investiture in Sel's Cognitive subastral that could be the target. We don't know where Ambition's power lies, but presumably not only the Cognitive like those two. Ambition specifically wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system; the main piece of the battle and Ambition's (and Odium's) wounding occured there, but the actual Splintering didn't. That would make sense as a compass point, because it would be a constant direction in the Threnodite subastral as well and within other subastrals. (Unless that's what the Nalthis Cognitive Anomaly is... but we've got no idea what that is). Also, I'm not sure if Virtuosity was even Splintered at this point. The timeline on that's a bit weird... I swear Hoid had mentioned something about Virtuosity Splintering herself three centuries before the events of Yumi, but I think that was a fabrication on my part. Three Centuries comes up an odd amount in the cosmere. I do agree the Grand Knell fits Threnodite naming as well.

Could be another mist spirit scenario, where that’s not actually BAM. I had thought that BAM wouldn’t necessarily be consious, and this might just be her thoughts around the time of her binding.

Personally, I also think that the Grand Knell may be where Ambition died, not Ado or Honor. Don’t have a ton of reason, but it would be nice to know more about it. And we know Ambition specifically died somewhere away from Threnody, whereas Ado presumably just died on Yolen.

So, uh… Syladin somehow just got a lot more likely.

Some good points! The timing of things definitely isn't as neat as I thought it would be. But I do want to point out a few things. One - using Tress as a benchmark assumes that Tress is a reliable benchmark, and I don't know how safe that assumption is, mainly for one thing - in the Rhythm of War Ars Arcanum, Khriss mentions that "Foil" (or Xisis) would be particularly interested in the discovery of anti-Investiture (or one of the RoW discoveries), and she explicitly mentions that he'd be interested "in his oceans" and that he wants to command the aethers. That would imply that Xisis was actually already on Lumar by the time of the Stormlight Archive. That implication... really doesn't make sense, with what else we know about the Iri. But it doesn't make sense independent of Isles of the Emberdark. Possibly Xisis was on Lumar for a long time before revealing himself and forcing the Iri to move on, or possibly Lumar is undergoing hefty time dialation (which is possible, seeing as it has literal oceans of Investiture in one form or another). Also on the time dilation communication - it likely would make things difficult. But, there's probably ways around it. Frost is sending letters, which seem to arrive as quickly as interplanetary mail would. We also know that dragons have some kind of communication power, and that several communication powers (spanreeds, seons) break relativity anyway. If the actual conversation would become difficult, Frost could also use something like bendalloy to speed up his relative time.