PhineasGage

"The spren betrayed us, it's often felt, Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us out forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can't provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men." From the Listeners Song of Spren, 9th Stanza (epigraph chapter 32, WoR) I think that because humans can express multiple emotions and states at a single time, whereas the listeners are more "locked in" to their forms, a spren would find the experience of bonding a human more rewarding - it could get a wider experience of the physical world. Additionally, a spren bond with a listener used to be (prior to Venli anyway) temporary until the listenser chose to change form - then they'd bond a different spren - so a single spren may lose a great deal of memories as they bounce back and forth from shadesmar. Humans that bond can have more emotional states and don't need to change spren to do so.

I think in order to run with that we'd need evidence that it had happened before. Has she drawn Wit? Thats how she creates connection anyway as far as I understand. If she has then maybe but I dont remember it - does anyone know of proof of it? 1) Nightblood? Can he - I thought he only spoke to people he was held by or who he had tried to eat (thereby forming a cognitive connection) I got the impression that Lift only heard him after that happened? I have read Edgdancer but only once so prepared to be wrong on that. Still not sure it would be a good analogy for Wit to be able to do it. If he could magically connect with people why did he have to travel so far to find Jasnah at end of WoR - he could just have had a chat with her telepathically. Even if Nightblood can do this with anyone, he still needs to be bloody close to do it or Vivenna would have found him already. 2) Kelsier is dead when he does that and therefore has intrinsic links to the spiritual plane. Not only that, but iirc doesn't he need to be physically near someone to do it? 3) Er she does? I'm not questioning you so much as don;t remember it and would like to see the text. Feeling a bit Gandalf ("I have no memory of this place") 4) This is also certainly possible, though unless Odium is a complete idiot, I'd expect him to check it out for himself. I mean, seriously, the diagram has mistakes all through it. Oh had a thought about Lift and Nightblood, is it possible that because she exists partly in the cognitive realm that she can hear Nightblood's projected thoughts? Just a brief idea. Now that might be something that Wit can do. Not sure he'd be able to project his thoughts like that though to Shallan.

Its been a while since i read SoS but doesn't what you say essentially mean she is using the spike thing? I only read the book once so my knowledge if it is desperately flawed. Either way, there needs to be proximity. Has Wit spiked Shallan? Wouldnt we have seen that? My point was primarily about there having to be a specific link between communicating entities. Why would we assume that Shallan and Wit have such a link?

I love shipping threads. They are just so much fun. Also, I'm rubbish at coming up with theories but I'll happily find canon evidence for someone else's till the cows come home. People have mentioned the maturity thing several times and raised the issue of the maturity of the physical brain. This is an interesting if difficult topic to discuss because how do you define "stops" and "developing"? Its complicated because as we age, the brain changes. This is true throughout life - an elderly person's brain just looks different to a younger person's brain. And that's assuming a healthy brain - we aren't even talking about dementia etc, just simple aging. So, does that mean the brain is still developing? Do we class that at deterioration? In which case when does deterioration start? Children over the age of 2 start pruning their temporal lobes of phoneme recognition centres if those haven't been stimulated. It is one of the reasons children learn languages better than adults - they can literally hear and understand the sounds better. So is this part of the first stage of deterioration? Or is it simply good housekeeping? Anyway, you see my point. What about wisdom which is something that is achieved over time? Wisdom is often classified as the ability to take new information, run it through known information and come up with a result using abstract thoughts. It therefore takes time to get because you need a good baseline of information in your brain before you can even start using it. Intelligence is a factor in how fast you can learn stuff and therefore clever people could, in theory, achieve wisdom early, but it is more than that. You need to be able to manipulate data, to tie things together in ways that may be seen as unusual so that connections can be made that others who are less wise would miss. Typically though the brain is most "intelligent" between the ages of 20 and 30. It can assimilate the most varied amount of information at the fastest rate during this period of life. It is most "wise" between 40 and 70. After that, it tends to tail off a little, although some of that may be due to the presence of conditions like stroke/dementia etc. Given this, I think it is fair to say that Jasnah is wiser than Kaladin. She has had more time alive, which not only means she has had her full period of peak "intelligence" but she has also had access to some of the best information available to anyone - Kaladin has barely reached his peak level of intelligence, and due to the Vorin way of segregating learning, can't read so his access to varied information is limited. Wow, for a lighthearted thread i've gone a bit mad, sorry! And I'm not even done. Do I think the age is a barrier? Well yes, but mainly because of Jasnah's high WIS score. As Kaladin ages, this barrier will get smaller and smaller. I think Jasnah would find Kaladin trying to keep up tiresome and I think he would get equally irritated because he would hate being told stuff like he was a child. Once that is over though, I could see it working. Of the men in Jasnah's life only Renarin and Kaladin seem clever enough to keep up, and a) Renarin is her cousin and almost more like a baby brother given the way she thinks about him, and b ) he is probably not assertive enough to keep her interested. I like Renarin, but he would simply go round her. Kaladin would stand up to her. Jasnah seems to like it when people do that. My own personal opinion though is that this is not going to happen - despite the way they interact being great reading. I think Jasnah is either gay (or possibly asexual but i'm not so sure about that) so we'd be better off looking at possible female companions for her. I haven't seen any - I can't see her going for Shallan, she treats her too much like a child.

I seem to be on my own in the Kaladin camp Seriously though, I still love him. Everytime I saw it was about to be a Kaladin chapter I smiled. I just want him to be happy so badly. That aside, I loved Lift - she literally 'lifts' every scene she is in. Renarin, because OMG corrupted spren and still a good guy? amazing. Lastly Wit, because who doesn't love "The Girl that Stood Up"? From the perspective of the most interesting characters, Shallan wins out by a mile. The writing of her developing a dissociative identity disorder is fascinating and very well done, unlike most fictional renditions of the conditions that form the spectrum. I still like her, but I liked her better in WoR. Best villain? Moash because I hate him. Hate him. Even Amaram gets nowhere near as close now. He may have betrayed his men, but Moash is betraying his friends. Includng Kal, who is, as mentioned, my favourite. And finally, just to be controversial, I will admit to being a bit "meh" about Adolin. I do understand why people like him, and I like the juxtaposition of a normal, likable bloke to the crazies round him, but honestly, he leaves me a bit flat. I suppose, not being a likeable, normal person myself, I simply don't get him! Added: Argh, forgot to give Pattern an honourable mention for best one liners: "Like dividing by zero?", "Yes, seven people. Odd." and "No mating!". Math jokes ftw.

I suspect Odium thought she was an Elsecaller because they ended up physically in Shadesmar - and he didn't realise Sja-Anat had helped them. Shallan was obviously dissociating, both when she fought ReShephir and when she fought Ashertman. There is no particular reason I can think of that would prevent her being an Elsecaller just because of a mental health diagnosis. Looking at our definite Windrunners, Teft has an addiction problem but I would not suggest he is depressed like Kaladin is. Lopen is not depressed at all from what we have seen, though clearly something is going on there - I haven't got a specific diagnosis for him so perhaps he doesn't have one - "broken" might not only mean mental health issues - it might simply be that his trajectory had been disrupted by losing an arm so he lost the ability to view himself as a useful member of society - even without becoming depressed. I am unsure. I have been looking through my psych textbook and havent yet jumped on anything that has made me go "oh yeah there's Lopen!" Anyway, as I menitoned before dissociating identities happen as a result of very early trauma. It is usually abuse but can be anything in theory. It is usually seen as a condequence of disrupted family attachment in the first few years of life. That doesn't strike me as something that would automatically result in someone becoming a Lightweaver. Sure the "lies" of the dissociation might be attractive to a Cryptic, but if the person either managed to reassemble themselves, or focussed on being someone who spent their life looking for answers (like Jasnah) it would allow them to bond something else potentially. I don't see why, in a different situation for example, a cultivationspren wouldn't have looked at Kal and gone - yeah he'll work for me.... He is a natural healer and if anything has trouble forgetting people! Perhaps it also helps that lightweavers and elsecallers share a surge so it is easier to get them mixed up?

Dissociative identity disorders are not common. The most common reaction to having the severe trauma associated with DID is actually to develop a personality disorder - often Borderline PD. It may have some dissociation - eg black outs, time lapse etc but true dissociation of personalitites into 2 or more alters is unusual. I can go into detail if necessary. Point is that in 100 people who experience similar levels of early childhood trauma, only 1 might go on to dissociate their identity. On top of that, DID and OSDD are strongly linked to early childhood abuse. You could become a lightweaver later in life as a result of trauma later in life but you'd be unlikely to dissociate your identity - you'd develop PTSD instead. If you were going to point at a disorder and say "that's the one for lightweavers", PTSD would be way ahead of the rest because, if nothing else it is way more common as it has multiple ways in which it can arise.

Crosspost from SLA thread: I was thinking about this and trying to think about how it might work. The biggest point (in my opinion anyway) in it's favour is the telepathic aspect. It's biggest flaw is that the statements made by Wit in the scene when Shallan melds with Ashertman may not contradict what Wit says in the first place. Ok, so I was initially sceptical of this idea when first raised because I did not see that there was a significant difference between Wi't's first asdvice, and the second. That said, that change from mind - which very much reflects what is happening to Shallan (she has a surgebinded assisted OSDD) to emotions which is something very much associated with Odium. I still see how both could be the advice viewed through different lenses, but the more I have read about DID and OSDD (both formerly called multiple personality disorder) the more I think Wit's first piece of advice (which is definitely from Wit because we can see him) fits with the best practice for current treatment practice of OSDD and DID. On the other hand, "ruling" the alternative aspects of the core personality is not the standard practice amongst medical professionals - they aim for people to control their anxiety and then help the personalities re-knit. The king and subjects line doesn't really fit - BS is known to research these kinds of things to a good depth. Ultimately though, how different you view these lines is a matter of personal perspectives, so other than pointing out the possible disparities it is probably not the best way to solve this one way or the other. As a result, I started to think about telepathy. We have never seen true telepathy on Roshar. Indeed we have never seen it in the cosmere to my knowledge. The closest thing we see to it is in Mistborn We have some interesting close similarities on Roshar - the Stormfather can convey images to people - but it is clear that either he or Dalinar must be in their presence to do so. As a second point, we see Dalinar hear "Unite them" but it is unclear exactly where this comes from. I think we all thought is was from Honor before OB but there have definitely been some questions raised (with good reason) about this. Thirdly, Dalinar hears "I forgive you" as he connects to the spiritual realm, presumably from Evi but it may not be. Fourthly, (sorry this got longer as I was writing it) Kal sees a vision of the future in the crystal ball when he touches it (palantir anyone?). That was almost certainly of Odium. Lastly, Dalinar sees "warmth and light" both at the end of WoR and OB. It is suggested that this may be from Cultivation but it may also be that he always has a link to the spiritual realm. There are two important things that all of these share. Proximity and an entity with access to the Spiritual realm. The only other aspects of "telepathy" occur with Syl/Pattern talking to their respective humans when in Blade form. There is a strong cognitive bond here and again, physical contact has to be made. It is not clear that Syl or Pattern could communicate this way with someone else holding them. With one notable exception (in Shadesmar where the rules are different) Kaladin and Syl never speak mind to mind without there being contact as far as i can remember. To our knowledge Wit cannot have been near the Heart of the Revel - indeed he specifically states that he cannot get close in an earlier chapter (I think - can someone confirm? My cremcrusted Kindle has decided to stop letting me search for things) Secondly, whilst Wit is known to be a worldhopper, we do not know how much access he has to the Spiritual realm. Given that he refused to carry a shard of Adonalsium, and he claims to be "just a man" I think we can infer that he probably does not have direct, controllable access. On top of this Shallan certainly does not have access. I think a lot of people assume Wit/Hoid lies alot. He doesn't. He is truthful almost to a fault but he ties his truths up with so much trimming that the nature of the truth he speaks is not always clear until much later. I, therefore, tend to treat his words with caution, but I generally accept what he is saying, knowing that he is always at least 1 step ahead of me. As a result, I think it is fair to say that Wit is a very unlikely source of the voice that Shallan hears when she "mind-melds" with Ashertmann. To those who mention Sja-Anat, remember that Shallan never touched her. They had a conversation through a mirror and the physical proximity is needed. Odium may not be able to control the communication without physical contact, just as Ruin cannot - the holders of the Shards of Adonalsium have limited presence in the physical realm and seem to have to reach through via certain specific lines of power. It may be that each also has specific things they cannot affect - again see Mistborn. The next thing I want to say is that it is clear that Ashertman was part of a trap. It seems reasonable to conclude that Shallan would try to touch him/her/it after her encounter with ReShephir (who may have informed Odium of what happened in some way). Why not, as part of the trap - particularly given the way Odium clearly has a number of back-up plans, ensure that even if Shallan survives (it is implied that whatever Sja-Anat did to the Oathgate was new and unpredictable) she would already be potentially vulnerable to Odium. Rayse knew Hoid before the shattering of Adonalsium. He likely knows Hoid is around, even if he can't find the man so perhaps he imitated him. On top of that, Shallan may simply have assumed it was Wit's voice (ooooh pehaps Rayse and Hoid are brothers...... lol for completely evidence lacking hypothesis) because they sound enough alike for her to confuse them. We simply don't know. Now, this is a little complicated, but it does fit the evidence. I still would not rule out Hoid (of all people) being able to do some kind of telepathy but BS is known for hard coding his magic and I can't see him breaking the laws of his own universe just for a small moment like this. Better to have a set up where Hoid either is seen performing telepathy so we can see it, or have him unable to perform it - which follows the current knowledge we have and have him imitated at a crucial moment. I personally am not sure that Odium has any idea about the conversation that Shallan has with Wit. He may and he may even recognise Hoid in it but why would something that has the intent of "the void" be particularly good at searching people's memories in moments? Odium, clearly isn't omniscient - he cannot see the part Renarin will play after all and he does not oredict Dalinar's ascension. IMO he wasn't trying to replicate Wit, it is just as likely Shallan simply thought it must be Wit speaking because of the words that were spoken. As a side note, people have suggested that she "gets better" after this. This is straightforward wrong. Shallan is getting worse. You can argue about whether she is worse at the end (if she were IRL OSDD then I would say she definitely is in a worse state) of OB but when Ashertman leaves, she knows she failed. And it seems reasonable to think that she also failed to unite herself. Side point perhaps Dalinar's "Unite them" is for him to help Shallan unite her alts back into one personality.

Good Morning all. Storms this thread is amazing. I don't spend much time on any of the other threads because this one is taking up all my time! I think, rather than react to each post in order the way I've done over the past few days I'll probably just address the general issues. Special shout-out to @SLNC for the 'Odium Speaks theory' but to everyone here thank you for keeping this thread so enetertaining and interesting. To @FuzzyWordsmith, @Dreamstorm, @AubreyWrites and @Egomere regarding the conversation about the trustworthiness of Szeth and that he is simply accepted; I agree with the points about it seeming rushed - like a great deal of the end of OB, there were skips and it was really hard to follow exactly what was going on so it felt rushed. It may have been possible that there was some Szeth/Dalinar interaction that we didn't see there but I don't think there is any specific evidence supporting that. What I do think is that WoR helps understand where Dalinar may be coming from; Szeth openly admits to not wanting to kill Dalinar but that he must try anyway. Dalinar even thinks to himself that Szeth is not completely sane when Szeth attacks at the end of WoR. BUT Szeth definitely apologises and it is clear that he is, to all intents and purposes, a tool for those who would use him. Dalinar may not understand the exact reasons why Szeth obeys his master (I don;t think Dalinar would know about the Oathstone for example) but he does seem to understand that Szeth is not his true enemy. On top of that (especially after the retcon of Kaladin and Szeth fighting) Kaladin will likely have told Dalinar the whole story about how it went down - including that Szeth essentially gave up and let himself die because he now knew that he'd been right all along about the return of the desolation, coupled with the information that Szeth ran away when Kaladin used stormlight when Szeth first attacked at the end of the first part of WoR, it suggests that he did not necessarily want to kill them. Again, I'm not suggesting that Dalinar or Kaladin knew all of this, but they probably did know enough to not automatically consider Szeth an enemy. On top of that, Szeth is damned skilled. In their minds he is likely capable of killing (or getting storming close) Kaladin or Dalinar when he turns up but he doesn't even try. Indeed, he lands close enough to if he was going to attack but just takes orders. I also think that Dalinar deliberately put Szeth away from the main fray - away from the ordinary people of Thaylen City and away from as many Radiants as possible whilst still keeping him in a place where he could be watched. On top of that, whilst I think Dalinar likes Lift, I am not so sure he places a great deal of weight on her support at the beginning of the fight - though I am certain that he does after it. This means that whilst he isn't worried about her loyalty per se, he probably has less personal concern for her wellbeing that he does for the other Radiants around him who are all family, or nearly family. I don't think this was done consciously, but most people will put the interests of loved ones ahead of those of strangers. Besides that, she is capable of healing herself better than most of his Radiants (Renarin excepted) and given the way she was able to hide from Odium, is possibly somewhat safer from Szeth than Renarin would be. As I said though, I think his decision at that moment was instinctive. He trusts his gut. After the battle, I was definitely sorry not to see at least more acknowledgement of the previous relationship - storms Szeth is now sleeping outside Dalinar's room like the way a medieval court fool used to sleep outside the door of his king. Taravangian admits to having used Szeth to Dalinar, so we know Dalinar knows some of the story but it seems odd that in the week between winning at Thaylen City and the wedding between Adolin and Shallan that there is not even a line of questioning. That being said, Dalinar does have a history putting unknown elements in the position of his bodyguard after an amazing feat - he did exactly the same to Kaladin. That being said, Kaladin had never tried to kill Dalinar - tho I suspect that Dalinar has guessed that he might have allowed the assassination of Elhokar to nearly go ahead. Ok, on to the Skybreakers. I think the skybreakers are interesting because it is implied that the Order will split - new members likely to join Dalinar, but older members likely to follow Nalan. It makes sense in a thematic way because the law is supposed to work for both sides of a legal argument - both the defendent and the accuser. The law only works when the system is balanced between both sides so that the truth will come out. In a world where there is at least some belief that the Almighty/God/[Insert Deity here] affects the outcome of combat according to who is right it is not so unusual to see the order split along the lines of those seen as defending their right to reclaim their land, vs those who are the descendents of those who took it. The skybreakers represent the adversarial nature of the courts of law seen in Western countries like the UK or the US (whose system is largely based on the UK's to be fair). This means that in a sense, you have to "trust" them in the same way as you "trust" the lawyers for the defence and the lawyers for the prosecution to do the best job they can and fight for the side they are on and hopefully win. Like real life, it may mean that some will act in unscrupulous ways but unlike real life, the skybreakers cannot break the oaths they have sworn to uphold the law the way a real lawyer IRL could. They don't really lend themselves to espionage as a result. Ok, movin' on, I am now going to comment on the Odium Speaks concept - although I believe someone mentioned a thread had been set up on this too so I'll jump over there in a bit to see what is going on. I was not majorly on board with this thread until right before I went to bed my mind was blown when it was pointed out the way "Wit" talked about the emotions rather than the minds. I am sure @SLNC thought this was obvious in his original post but honestly, it passed me by like a ship in the night. Once I'd (finally) got it it blew my mind and I slept poorly as a result. I hope you're happy..... Anyway. I was thinking about this and trying to think about how this might work - several people have raised excellent points on this and I've run out of upvotes again - I think I got most of them though. Here are my thoughts. We have never seen true telepathy on Roshar. Indeed we have never seen it in the cosmere to my knowledge. The closest thing we see to it is in Mistborn We have some intersting close similarities on Roshar - the Stormfather can convey images to people - but it is clear that either he or Dalinar must be in their presence to do so. As a second point, we see Dalinar hear "Unite them" but it is unclear exactly where this comes from. I think we all thought is was from Honor before OB but there have definitely been some questions raised (with good reason) about this. Thirdly, Dalinar hears "I forgive you" as he connects to the spiritual realm, presumably from Evi but it may not be. Fourthly, (sorry this got longer as I was writing it) Kal sees a vision of the future in the crystal ball when he touches it (palantir anyone?). That was almost certainly of Odium. Lastly, Dalinar sees "warmth and light" both at the end of WoR and OB. It is suggested that this may be from Cultivation but it may also be that he always has a link to the spiritual realm. There are two important things that all of these share. Proximity and an entity with access to the Spiritual realm. To our knowledge Wit cannot have been near the Heart of the Revel - indeed he specifically states that he cannot get close in an earlier chapter (I think - can someone confirm?) Secondly, whilst Wit is known to be a worldhopper, we do not know how much access he has to the Spiritual realm. Given that he refused to carry a shard of Adonalsium, and he claims to be "just a man" I think we can infer that he probably does not have direct, controllable access. On top of this Shallan certainly does not have access. I think a lot of people assume Wit/Hoid lies alot. He doesn't. He is truthful almost to a fault but he ties his truths up with so much trimming that the nature of the truth he speaks is not always clear until much later. I, therefore, tend to treat his words with caution, but I generally accept what he is saying, knowing that he is always at least 1 step ahead of me. As a result, I think it is fair to say that Wit is a very unlikely source of the voice that Shallan hears when she "mind-melds" with Ashertmann. To those who mention Sja-Anat, remember that Shallan never touched her. They had a conversation through a mirror and the physical proximity is needed. Odium may not be able to control the communication without physical contact, just as Ruin cannot - the holders of the Shards of Adonalsium have limited presence in the physical realm and seem to have to reach through via certain specific lines of power. It may be that each also has specific things they cannot affect - again see Mistborn. The next thing I want to say is that it is clear that Ashertman was part of a trap. It seems reasonable to conclude that Shallan would try to touch him/her/it after her encounter with ReShephir (who may have informed Odium of what happened in some way). Why not, as part of the trap - particularly given the way Odium clearly has a number of back-up plans, ensure that even if Shallan survives (it is implied that whatever Sja-Anat did to the Oathgate was new and unpredictable) she would already be potentially vulnerable to Odium. Rayse knew Hoid before the shattering of Adonalsium. He likely knows Hoid is around, even if he can't find the man so perhaps he imitated him. On top of that, Shallan may simply have assumed it was Wit's voice (ooooh pehaps Rayse and Hoid are brothers...... lol for completely evidence lacking hypothesis) because they sound enough alike for her to confuse them. We simply don't know. Now, this is a little complicated, but it does fit the evidence. I still would not rule out Hoid (of all people) being able to do some kind of telepathy but BS is known for hard coding his magic and I can't see him breaking the laws of his own universe just for a small moment like this. Better to have a set up where Hoid either is seen performing telepathy so we can see it, or have him unable to perform it - which follows the current knowledge we have and have him imitated at a crucial moment.

omg i missed that aspect entirely. I take it all back - i agree it is Odium!

Not just in fantasy - it was common in medieval Europe to have the laying on of hands by Kings to cure a condition called scrofula. Scrofula is a symptom of TB in the lymph nodes of the neck, but it goes down on its own and of course people didn't realise it was due to TB (called 'consumption' at the time) so they thought the touch of a king could cure it! I have a feeling that James the First of England had a bit a thing about it..... I agree about Syl being of interest in this - she does seem to interact with Shallan on a number of levels without Kaladin being present and I am not entirely sure why Kaladin doesn't address this. I don;t think we see her interact specifically with anyone other than Shallan without discussing it with Kaladin being present. I may be wrong, but it is implied that she doesn't usually like making herself visible to people other than Kaladin. I know Syl can't hide in the same way in Shadesmar but it does seem a bit strange that she is talking freely with Shallan (she asks her for an illusion and only tells Kaladin afterwards) but apparently not Adolin or Azure. On top of that, I don't think Pattern goes out of his way to talk with anyone. The only time I can remember him talking to someone other than Shallan is a brief chat with Adolin where Adolin approaches him and he gets the wrong end of the stick (something about seven being odd - I loled but not sure who else did). @SLNC I see what you mean, but I always viewed this as it essentially being different forms of the same advice - I mean, Shallan needs to control the situation before she can accept they are all one. On the other hand, you are not the first to suggest that it means the opposite and it certainly could fit with it being Odium. I don't think Ashertman is more sentient than Nergaoul so whilst he may be a conduit, it seems unlikely it would come from him directly. I am prepared to believe that of anyone, Hoid is capable of doing something seemingly impossible.

I think it is fair to acknowledge that Renarin would not be considered a severe case - at least based on what we know of him. I do suspect that his epilepsy (assuming it was a correct diagnosis of course) likely would have had a great impact on his life in terms of the way he would be treated by others. His fits would be unpredictable, and, depending on the type of epilepsy, might result in problems with him learning skills including social skills. Whether or not the epilepsy would be more of a problem than his autism would depend on the severity and type of both. Either way he has been undermined because of him - storms, Dalinar calls him "the cripple" regularly in the flashbacks - not even always by name, which is appalling.

@AubreyWrites I think @FuzzyWordsmith put it best for me, although I will admit that I was basing my assumption mainly on the WoB regarding Renarin. I have limited experience with autism myself -I am not sure of the correct word usage to describe things within autism - so if I use the wrong terms I apologise. I have one friend with a diagnosis of autism. I suppose in some ways it would be considered mild because he lives on his own, has a job, goes out to social gatherings that may include a large group of people, is able to maintain eye contact and has a good understanding of social norms/behaviours etc. That said, he would say he has had to learn these things rather than them being instinctive things that other people (to his mind anyway) just "get". On the other hand he has some definite sensory distortions that mean he reacts to certain stimuli differently to people without autism which means it can severely impact him on a day to day basis. Somehow he manages all this and is truly amazing. As a point, in chapter 120, Renarin specifically think about how he had to "endure" hugs from Rock and then says when Rock said he looked like he needed a hug that "I assure you, I never look like that."

I can't believe it took us 22 pages to remember that scene! @Awesomness - thank you for the quote! I was looking for exactly something like that

I think you have a point, but my inner pedant wants me to point out that he technically says "This is a good you, Shallan". That being said, the lack of in depth conversation between them at this moment is rather telling. Previously, Shallan and Pattern shared a close relationship, although it was defiitely based on mutual desire to learn, they still discussed lots of things. That being said, I don;t think they discussed Shallan's relationship with Adolin at all - does anyone have any recollenction of them discussing it? That also mirrors Syl pushing Kaladin to chase after Shallan..... So many mirrors. Good Point! The attitude to epilepsy is actually very telling. Traditionally, many cultures have viewed epilepsy in a negative way. It often got associated with possession and curses. It also was associated with the divine (called "the sacred disease" by the ancient Greeks) and not always a negative thing tho generally it was assumed to be the results of evil spirits by most European cultures. Even in modern day, epileptics get short shrift and a lot of stigma attached to them. Some of this is because the disease can manifest in a large variety of ways, depending on which bit of the brain (or if all of it) is affected during a seizure. For example, fits can cause jerks of a single limb (which as Kaladin correctly says) is usually "myoclonic", through trance-like states that are technically periods of unconsciousness (note that these are not the same as Shallan's blackouts) during which the person may make odd movements with their hands and lips, or the most familar form to most people - the tonic clonic seizures. As a point the wiki on this is pretty good from the brief look I had on it. I think Kaladin has a natural affinity for healing/medicine. He has learned a huge amount in a relatively short amount of time, which is even more impressive when you consider that he cannot read. Glyphs aren't the same as proper writing and it must be really hard to understand a concept with only using pictures that convey single ideas. On top of that, he naturally is able to identify a complex condition from relatively little information and bring up an appropriate treatment that has actually been prescribed. He'd get an A in my class anyway. I also loved Renarin's line on this ; "Field medicine? For epilepsy?" I lol every time I read that. So i kinda want to bring up a few points. One, Renarin suffers stigma because of his (likely or definite?) autism and his epilepsy so he could relate at least a bit to what Shallan is going through - he also cannot always trust his own mind to back him up. Two, Adolin, having grown up with Renarin, understands how to just accept someone for who they are and let them just get on with things. Three, Kaladin is a natural healer, but likely has little experience/knowledge of mental health issues because most cultures are not good at addressing them.

@SLNC I agree - and he shows such empathy - he says he knows how it feels to be locked up and that it must be worse for Syl. He puts her first if he can now, even if it gets him locked up for more time.... *sob*

It may be something as simple as that the blade hadn't been used before and they didn't know if it would work. Perhaps they thought Jezrien might be able to fight back or do something "heraldy" to kill the one wielding it. Moash may have been a useful tool, in that if he suceeded, he could be used again for similar purposes but was also expendable. I doubt this is the only reason, given the way Sanderson writes, but it would fit in with the way the Fused seemed so worried about what was going to happen.

That is my line of thinking too... After all, Lightweaver need to seek self-awareness to progress and we have seen a failed one in a WoR epigraph. You know, I'd completely missed this and I really don't know how. Initially now I thought, well it isn't Shallan's book, but we see loads of Syl but Pattern has gone very quiet. What happened to the spren who shouted No Mating! or the one who was talkative about human anatomy? Where are the conversations between any of Shallan's alts and Pattern? She seems to have forgotten about him and that he wants to learn everything he can about humanity - it was why he came to the physical realm in the first place I feel really bad for him Syl and Kaladin only seem to get closer but Shallan and Pattern are growing further apart. I am sure it is an indication of her worsening self-awareness. I have started to believe that the KR progression is not completely stepwise. Obviously there is a massive burst of power as an oath is sworn - or at least new skills "unlock", but between oaths there is still a gradual improvement in skill and even access to skill. On top of that there is a gradual realisation of the oaths required next. We know something odd happened to Shallan when she nearly killed Pattern when she was a child, but what if all Radiants can kinda go back and forward, even if it is just in the space between oaths. Perhaps slow/gradual changes in behavior won't cause immediate death of a spren, but it will cause them to go off like Syl did when Kaladin was imprisoned and thinking about letting Elokhar be assassinated. Shallan seems almost to have hidden her previous truth and perhaps, because her dissociation is gradually worsening she is actually starting to negate it. It wouldn't kill Pattern necessarily because she hasn't blocked it completely but she has blocked it enough.

I've got a bit of a thing for names and word meanings, so I looked at the possible meanings of Meridas Amaram's name. Now Meridas as a male name and does not exist in real life from what I can find but Merida - a female name very like it - means "one who has achieved a high place of honor" Amaram is an in-world name derived from "merem" meaning "honour". In the greek languange putting the prefix a- or an- on a word usually means the same as "without" or lacking. for example anaemia means lacking (an-) blood (haem). Therefore I would suggest that Amaram's name might well be translated fully as One who has achieved a high place of honor, without honor. I.e he got to his respectable position by doing reprehensible actions. I feel that given how well this fits with him, I am not too sad he died. Best of all he didn't bring anyone down to his level as he fought. Kaladin is finally free of him but doesn't have to feel guilty about his death. Neither does Rock for that matter though I suspect he is feeling guilty about killing someone after obviously swearing he wouldn't fight.

Your point about the Mistborn example is a very good one. It shows how, with proper application and control, the Intent of a shard can be pointed, especially when combined with another shard with a significantly different or opposing Intent. There may be a bit more "wiggle" room when the intents of two held shards do not oppose. So for Honor and Cultivation, whose Intents don't align or oppose, it would be likely that the holder would have more room to interpret the shards' intents and thus act more like themselves. That being said, the personality of the holder slowly shifts as the intent takes over so the more shards a person posesses, the more likely it seems that their personality could be warped. With regards the plate, the stormfather does say "You shall be a Radiant without shards" - note the plurality. It implies that he may not get plate. That being said, it seems likely that the plate is made from "lesser" spren rather than the bonded spren so perhaps the stormfather will have little/no say in the matter. On top of that it seems that the stormfather has little future-sight so he is fallible when it comes to predicitons as well and can't be trusted to get everything right. Regarding the spren that might be associated with the bondsmiths plate, anyone else thing gloryspren? Given the way they obviously were attracted to Dalinar as he created the perpendicularity. I did wonder if Syl was really an 'honorspren' (there is at least one WoB (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=bonding+honorspren) saying that is what she calls herself but not specifically calling her that himself. On top of that, she regularly calls herself a windspren and when Kaladin corrects her she agrees in odd ways. It just feels.... odd. Could the gloryspren actually be more closely related to Honor than the honorspren are? Perhaps there is another clearer WoB I missed. I don't think Dalinar is a 5th level yet - although I am sure his ability to link the three realms is part of him progressing as a radiant. I think it is perhaps more related to his close links with Honor (via the Stormfather), Odium (via the Thrill/Nergaoul) and Cultivation (via his boon/curse). I think his oath may be related to this line : "If I must fall I will rise each time a better man" (chapter 119). Perhaps, a bit like the lightweavers don't have specific oaths but must speak truths on a journey of self awareness, the bondmiths must make oaths about their behaviour to make sure they grow in certain directions and they control their behaviour. It doesn't matter what the oath is, so ling as they mean to follow the oath for the rest of their lives. This would fit with why Dalinar and Gavilar both attracted the Stormfather to begin with - they both wanted to live by following the Codes.

I just re-read this. I must have read it so quickly the first couple of times I missed it, but it just had me tear up. I don't want to clog up the thread (again) discussing this chapter - although perhaps it should have a new thread made? I do agree though that if he can take Dalinar who is a monster at this point in the books and turn it round this quickly with this much skill making both him and Renarin look sympathetic and make the scenario believable, do we really think the shotgun nature of the romance end is likely? You mentioned the disparity and I agree - you could almost say that Dalinar's realisation about "hating" his sons and the clarity and alacrity with which he accepts it is a striking mirror to Shallan trying to suppress her self-awareness and take a simpler but ultimately less safe path. Dalinar knows how he wants to end up (ie not hating his sons and being a good and honorable man) but doesn't know how to achieve it. Shallan in contrast, knows what she wants to do (ie marry Adolin) but doesn't really know how she wants to end up as a result - she doesn't seem to be actively trying to prevent herself dissociating. As a side point to the wedding, I know we've talked about this briefly but don't think it was mentioned directly. Shallan changes her mood and affect in a sudden moment which to me suggests a very clear moment of dissociation. Moods rarely change that quickly or dramatically. If it had happened when her brothers came in I would accept it as a possible cause, but it didn't.

Good point. She is very clever so probably still scores highly - people like her tend to be "universally intelligent" but I do agree that her interpersonal skills are likely her weakest aspect by some distance. One thing I didn't point out is that it is unusual for a person to score well on only one field. Most people have a couple of strong areas. It is also usual for someone with a "high IQ" to score well on all aspects but have particular skill in only a couple of areas. The old concept of the "savant" - eg a person who scores only very well on music but poorly on other scores is actually not that likely - usually people who appear this way actually score well on at least 1 other aspect of intelligence but it either hasn't been tested properly (we only started valuing the scores of the "emotional intelligences" relatively recently so didn't test them beforehand) or our tests lack the nuance to catch all ways in which an intelligence might present. For example, an child with an intellectual disability (defined as an IQ of less than 70) may be good at music and interpersonal skills but because they lack the language skills necessary, it may be exceedingly difficult to assess their interpersonal intelligence. This is the sort of child who might well be excellent at spotting if someone is feeling sad then going and helping console them, even if they lack the verbal skills to understand why that person is sad, but will still score badly on the test because our tests are crude tools most of the time. As a point, the tests for childhood IQ such as the WISC, are so much fun to do (says the 30-something year old adult.....)

So I agree with @SLNC post below yours @Toaster Retribution - I wasn't trying to be offensive. Perhaps Shallan's comment at the end of WoR sums it up best - Adolin is "mentally direct". It comes down to personal preference about the type of intelligence a person has. Intelligence is sometimes divided into seven cateogories (although this is a bit controversial - humans don't actually divide up that well, but it is a useful concept when defining the intelligence of a person). These categories are often defined (in no particular order) as: Mathematical (logical) Musical Verbal/linguistic Kinaesthetic (intelligence of body.movement) Intrapersonal Interpersonal visual/spatial Let's break them down quickly: mathematic/logical is pretty easy to define - you don't necessarily need to be good at maths (it is a learned construct to an extent) but some people are simply good at following logical structures. Jasnah is a good example of this in the books. Musical - again quite easy to define. People with high musical intelligence will be able to learn music more easily, play it from memory more easily, and learn different instruments more easily. Depending on what other intelligence facets they score highly in tends to cause them to lean more to certain aspects of music - for example, composers of neoclassical music are statistically more likely to score highly on logic than linguistics, but lyricists tends to score higher on linguistics. Verbal/linguistic - these are the people who do well on verbal reasoning tests. They tend to be good spellers, have a natural 'feel' for grammar, and are more likely to enjoy hobbies that give them a reason to use their verbal intellect such as reading or making arguments (eg in a court of law). I would guess that everyone here has a high verbal intellect. Statistically speaking, people with a high verbal intellect also tend to find other languages easier to learn, although again, this is partly reliant on decent teaching/exposure at a young age. Jasnah also likely has a high verbal score given the way she phrases herself. Shallan definitely does, although her intelligence is still somewhat unformed and immature - she needs a few years for her intelligence to crystallise Kinaesthetic - this is the ablity to learn a physical skill. Atheletes tend to score highly in this. It is the ability to understand where your body is in space and how to move it to perform the action you want in the best possible manner. A good test of your kinaesthetic ability is to try and learn a new physical skill such as juggling, or uni-cycling for example. Some people can pick it up really quickly others (like me for instance) can barely be sure of catching one ball thrown in the air. These people also tend to be better at watching someone else do something physical and then reproducing it. It is one reason atheletes often benefit watching videos of their performances. Kaladin definitely has this, although it is currently most aimed at his ability to use the spear but he does pick up other physical skills quickly too. Intrapersonal - this is the ability to have self-awareness, to understand how one is feeling and why. It is an undervalued element of intelligence. I would suggest Adolin actually performs quite highly on this because he is able to rationalise ideas about himself and his actions quite quickly such as confronting Dalinar about his visions in tWoK but also then accepting that he maybe went about it in the wrong way. These are the people who apologise quickly and easily for faults they believe they have made. Interpersonal - the ability to relate to other people. This is essentially empathy but also includes other aspects such as compassion for others. Most of our main characters score highly on this. Dalinar did not when he was younger though he has learned it as a skill later in life. Visual/spatial - this is the intelligence type related to understanding images and concepts that have 2 or 3 dimensional elements. A good example is someone who can go to a city and understand the layout very quickly. They can create a mental map of a place and make their way around without additional guidance. My So is like this and literally never gets lost. Its very annoying. I suggest Dalinar and Adolin do well on this one because they understand the spatial elements of a battlefield - we see Adolin figure out where he in side a building based on his mental map alone in WoR. So I hope this is clear, intelligence is something that is innate but its use is dependent on access to appropriate means of learning the skills that learn in. Kaladin could not prove kinaesthetic ability if he's been a farmer. Jasnah could not have shown off her logic if she never learned to read other people's ideas. It also changes over time - like everything else in the human body, "use it or lose it". The more you use something, the better you get at using it. but the less you use it, the more it atrophies. My point here is that being "bright" in my local lingo, usually refers to the more "intellectual" types of intelligence - ie verbal and maths - Adolin likely scores quite highly on the other forms. It doesn't mean he isn't clever, but it does mean that his strengths lie in areas that are more related to his own experiences rather than abstracts. In contrast, Shallan is likely to score well in visual/spatial and verbal. Jasnah, being the incredible thing she is probably scores well in all areas, but particularly highly in logic. Anyway, sorry to anyone who has just had the pants bored off them. I find this kind of thing fascinating - also its going to come up in my end of year exams so its worth my while to revisit!

On top of that, Brandon mentioned that in some ways he wrote Roshar to be like an underwater world - where the plants are like sea anemones, able to retract their leaves, the chulls, cremplings and chasmfiends are essentially invertebrates with exokeletons, the storm is a bit like a wave regularly washing over the land a the shore etc.

Lovely - thank you for that clarification.