PhineasGage

Your lack of immediate embrace of these ideas concerns me. I think I'm going to need more than that to prove your loyalty to the cause. And I'll need to see your papers. New Announcement: House Sadeas is offering a reward for anyone willing to come forward with information pertaining to the heinous murder of our Dear Leader. Anyone coming forward will first be flogged (for not coming forward earlier) then rewarded handsomely for finally doing so. Ps - and yes, this is a joke thread. Sorry - I figured I was being obvious?

Hi all, As suggested by @Ookla the Toasted and seconded by @Nathrangking, I am starting a Torol Sadeas appreciation thread. All posts here must be positive to Sadeas, our hero, and the greatest man to even live upon Roshar. Any criticism of our martyred champion will be summarily dismissed and you may be beaten down with feathers of white and green. Anyway, in order to give you some ideas about how to support our beloved and deeply mourned idol, why don't I go first? Torol Sadeas was marvelously clever (until he wasn't), honest (for a given value of honest) and honorable (when it suited him) .We will never see another like him. PS: I think this is ok to post here but if not can someone tell me where it should go?

Wow, I'm seriously failing the test of deep Cosmere knowledge here aren't I. Right, who else have I forgotten? I'd make a terrible Edgedancer. Oh storms, Edgedancer begins with E..... do we need to worry about all of them?

Morning all So I don't really agree with this for a number of reasons. 1) Not everyone will have as traumatic a past as Shallan but they may still be suitable as a Lightweaver, 2) We know that Shallan has spoken truths that occurred after she bonded. I mean both killing her mother and her father happened after she'd bonded Pattern. I do agree that there is something going on prior to her mother attacking her and it might be important in terms of Shallan's growth. I just don't think it has to be. For example, if she was a child with a fantastic imagination (seems likely) then perhaps simply being able to lie to herself as she played would be enough. We know children can be very engrossed in imaginative play and that some children are better at it that others. If Shallan was exceptional at playing pretend (again seems reasonable given how she does it as Veil in WoR) then perhaps that would be enough to attract a spren. If deep/painful truths are required for Lightweavers to progress, then why choose a child who, statistically, has less chance of having multiple truths available to them unless they can use truths later in life? Even assuming Shallan's background has enough truths in it, given the nature of human memory (ie that we cannot usually accurately remember our formative years), doesn't it make it potentially impossible for the order to progress as a whole. What about if something awful happens later in life and the lightweaver can't accept it? As self-awareness is vital for a lightweaver, doesn't that matter? Could they simply ignore it because they've already got enough truths to get by? I should also point out that the "I'm terrified" is not considered powerful enough in tWoK (iirc) - is there WoB that this is a truth? It seems likely it isn't considered important enough to give progression. The "I'm a murderer" is the truth she needed to accept before she could progress. I also don't think that it is possible to "cheat". If you know you are lying to yourself then you aren't actually deceiving yourself - by definition then you are self aware. It has to be a truth you weren't willing to approach or accept. In theory, seriously believing that you hate cheese because 'reasons', then finally realising you love it because it is actually the food of the gods, could be enough because you have finally realised something about yourself that you had been denying. I know its a silly example, but I think it demonstrates my point. My personal thoughts about Shallan's situation is that she was at level 2 when she killed her mother. She did not have proper access to her shardblade but that Pattern forced the bond (like Syl did when Kaladin fell into the chasm) and that, plus Shallan's mental trauma immediately afterwards killed him (mostly). Her acceptance of her 3rd truth revived Pattern, (I'm a murderer), then she says her 4th (I killed my mother) at the end of WoR. I think it is possible that the 4th level grants access to the shardblade usually but because Pattern manifested before, Shallan believes she should have it already so she can actually access it (perception being important). That she hasn't accepted her truth yet, means that it is still painful to hold the blade in part because she just isn't ready and it may be straining the bond. This might also explain why Pattern seems to start going downhill during OB (my interpretation anyway). This mirrors things we know can happen from other evidence, it fits the rate of progression and possibly gives additional information about why the blade is painful - the emotional pain of being attacked by her mother, the emotional pain of killing her mother, and the mental pain of straining/cracking the bond with Pattern and so killing him, and possibly still straining it. Kaladin doesn't describe pain (iirc) when he loses Syl, per se but it is obvious that he is struggles emotionally as a result. I agree. I think we see a "power-up" at her "im a murderer" moment because she suddenly soulcasts. I wonder if her 2nd ideal happened as her mother attacked her (e.g. "My mother doesn't love me") and that gave her a power up - perhaps giving her LW but also allowing Pattern to force accessing the blade (as described above). No we don't. I think she thinks about it but we don't see it (she starts but stops herself iirc). We only see her summon it for the first time (iirc) when she kills Tyn. A) I don't think the "I'm terrified" counts and (B) I agree that she has accepted that she killed her father. It is , of course an easier truth to accept because her whole trip to Kharbranth, the Shattered Plains, Urithiru and her betrothal to Adolin all stem from his death. The murder of her mother was different because a) she is the only person alive who knows it, (b) her childhood afterwards might have been equally as awful if her father really had killed her mother (I doubt it, but there is no way to know) - certainly no-one in the household questions that Lin must have done it in a fit of rage. This to me suggests that in order to revive Pattern that she needs to accept all that he is and that they have a bond. I think this is a possibility as well although there is too little textual evidence to support going backwards in terms of oaths. But if any order could do it it seems that the lightweavers should be able to. Lift basically resurrected Gawx when she powered up in WoR. Thats pretty impressive imo - she used all her power up energy to do so. I dont have Edgedancer on me atm so can't remember that situation to comment. With Szeth it is a bit unfair. Because he had been bonded to an HonorBlade he is already much more skilled that the other Skybreakers of the same level. He got used to having less stormlight available to him as he fought (he confirms this in tWoK prologue) than a Radiant would so he is already skilled at using it conservatively and making sure that he is efficient when using his lashings. He also never "liked" adhesion as a surge by the sound of it (he thinks gravitation is better) so i would suggest that he never really used adhesion as effectively as he might have done. We therefore get a warped picture of what normal progression for a skybreaker is. I don't think he would see the "power ups" in the same way because he is returning to power rather than gaining it for the first time. Right with you - I feel like one of the ten fools. Most specifically Dilid, who ran up a hillside to the Tranquilline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet-running for eternity, but never making progress. So as stated above, I don't think only old truths work. Though I do wonder if there is the need to continually maintain truths throughout life to maintain level - or at least maintain the 5th level. If Shallan went and got PTSD on top of everything else (not so unlikely) then she would need to confront truths relating to that as well as her DID or she would be seriously undermined in terms of both her mental and physical health. Stormlight can heal cracks in the spirit web but only when you let it in. My guess is that the 3rd of those is most important. Pattern comments on the nature of truth that it "truth to you" it is, by its nature, subjective. The "that table has 4 legs" vs "What is a table?" interaction in WoR proves this. Only the spiritual realm has absolute truth I believe - the cognitive realm is more subjective about it. I agree - tho I still feel the "I'm terrified" doesn't actually count. Repressed memories always take more time to come out. She tried to repress her memory regarding her father but there was too much happening as a direct consequence of his death that it was much harder. On top of that, as a kid she had someone (ie Lin Davar) specifically tell her not to think about it and to forget it ever happened. Then he lied to protect her so she wouldn't have to deal with the truth. Children generally do what their told when they are scared. Well, at least we haven't seen it. I agree that a full amnesia is certainly possible, though it seems likely she's hiding it in the Shallan persona so it might still come out. I just don't think it has to come out for her to progress. Such a memory loss is related to the likely abuse she suffered but is unrelated to the later fragmentation of identity she goes through. - except in the sense that their share the same cause. What I mean is that in an abuse situation, you may get repressed memories, or DID or both, but you don't have to get either. It depends on the person.

Hey all, I'm about to go to sleep but thought I'd pop in for one last post tonight. So I can see that if it is stability over sparks that it would be the better decision. I just don't think that "Without you I fade" suggests stability. For anyone. Maybe it works in the US but as far as I'm concerned if a Brit says that they are only ever being sarcastic. I don't think it is meant to be sarcastic or anything, I just don't think it comes off the page for as many readers as he'd probably like. I'm not even saying Kal is better for stability - I mean d'oh of course he's not. More just.... does she have to choose either of them right now? Ha, you're killing me! Wait, is that a gust of wind? Perhaps we are no longer becalmed at sea me hearties! Oh, no wait, It's me - just blowing hot air again. My mistake. I agree, although she is 4th level. She has only 1 truth left to speak. Unless there is a way of going backwards with oaths without breaking them. This truth has got to be the biggest of them all. It could still relate to her past though - she attracted Pattern before she killed her mother. There was pain there we haven't seen. That said, we would need at least some minor flashbacks (like we got for Kal in OB) to get it. I would totally have been on board with this. It is clear, concise, leaves no room for misunderstanding. It would have given Shallan her agency and still allowed for a degree of realism with the whole OSDD thing. I still wouldn't have advocated marriage for mental health reasons alone, but I could have gone along with it for Narrativium reasons. I know. We really ought to start a new one but I still haven't heard back from the admins. Oh good god, now you're killing me. Seriously, why are you all making this harder? (jk I'm loving it) I totally see where you are coming from. Unfortunately it is WoB that she did take Wit's advice. That kinda messes up your theory - which I think could have been totally awesome. @GoddessIMHO regarding your question about it being Adolin as the issue: I don't think it would have been better from anyone personally. My personal issue is one of understanding OSDD which Shallan seems to have. I hadn't researched the subject fully before I read OB but I had an instinctive feeling that were dealing with "magically enhanced multiple personality disorder". DID is a real thing. OSDD is a real thing. Just as much as depression and addiction are. Because Brandon handled both depression and addiction very well and sympathetically (subjects I have studied as part of my degree), I had expected another real condition to be handled with just as much care. I had a feeling (based on having a couple of years towards becoming a doctor) that you cannot "recognise" the "real" person when facing someone with any form of identity disorder because those personas are all real. Upon further study, I found out I was right. Frankly, if Kaladin had "recognised" her in exactly the same way I'd have been equally appalled. The fact its a "big strong handsome prince" only makes it worse - it seems to make him the focus, and not Shallan. This is vital because not only is it the worst thing to do IRL for this condition, but also because from a literary perspective our only major female protagonist had to literally rely on a man to find herself. None of our male protagonists are getting that treatment. Anyways.... *deep breath* All right my lovelies, Here's to the good Ship Shalladin. May she live on in fanfiction and imagination! (And the later SA books if BS has been trolling us this whole time.) Cheers! Night!

Ha I'm not saying I'd say no - though as I am probably already considered a troublemaker here I can't see it happening! I'm happy anyway - just sailing 'along' on the becalmed (or about to go over the edge of the world) SS Shalladin singing sea shanties and drinking cream (I'm the Ship's cat for those of you who don't know what I'm getting at). So I don't mind them feeling that way per se - they have as much right to feel that way as anyone does. I was surprised how vehement they were, but I think they feel partly responsible for the outcome of the book so I guess maybe took some of the implied criticism as criticism of them? I'm going to try and drag this thread back to the original intent of it. (kicking and screaming if I have to) So I think it is fair to say that we know Wit would consider Shallan to have started taking his advice. I think this implies that he did speak to her when she interfaced with Ashertmarn rather than anything else because she is "ruling" her alts, not accepting them at the moment. Thoughts?

Agreed - and some of it was potentially very subtle. I mean, I guess we can't call it foreshadowing now but it sure looked like it at the time. Especially given how well he foreshadowed in Mistborn. Some of it was feather light and so well crafted. I guess I'm here for the desolation stuff too - but honestly, it has put me off doing too much analysis because how can I believe I can interpret anything now? Its could become a real problem for me because that is the primary reason I read fantasy epics. *shrugs* oh well. Regarding the bit in bold, I think you are referring to the scene where she creates Radiant, yes? I didn't think she tried Veil - she discarded the idea because she couldn't have Adolin see Veil because of reasons. Ghostblood links or something I guess?

Oh god, and she was the best one too. I feel I should have to pay penance in some way. Suggestions? Anyway, thats four. Its definitely a pattern. So that means..... Eylita is next?

That doesn't make it ok. If he hadn't got depression so right then he wouldn't have been given accolades, he'd have been criticized. He has a reputation of being good at this. His 2 forays into addiciton are amazing and no-one is saying that Teft and Dalinar have "magical addiction so it doesn't work the same was as RL". Because it is fairly obvious they do. Yeah, I am irritated but its not the end of the world. I would have liked to see Shallan break more tropes but maybe she still can. If she is getting better then maybe the baby thing is worth another look. I mean a year to heal from her problems is plenty if we think she's taken significant steps in her process in the space of 5 minutes.

sorry.

Yes that makes sense - not all the highsren are bonded at any one time and they can presumably manifest a bit on the physical side the way the honor spren can - we see them with Szeth for one thing. They could then pass the info on? They may only know a proto radiant is around but not any crimes so then the humans have to find out if they committed any crimes they could execute them "for". ? Argh genius YES. That makes perfect sense - the Highspren could see something then pass the info on maybe? The humans at TC weren't bonded in anyway afaik so maybe a the potential for a bond makes the flame glow brighter for a time? They could then try to get the person before they bonded, leash them to the skybreakers but if they are too late they just kill them? Once you've found one you could just touch them to hear their thoughts in theory like Shallan hears Drehy.

Wonderful and good point. Thank you for pandering to me. Hmmm, that rather suggests that they must be doing it either though legitimate investigation - In which case how did they find Lift - I mean she travels all over Eastern Roshar and Nale still finds her - that seems..... unlikely right? or they are using some other thing that specifically tests for (probably) the nahel bond? That implies there is possibly a buildup towards it actually being realised that can be detected if that is the thing they are looking for. Given that the orders are quite varied I would think it would be the easiest thing to search for that they have in common. Maybe something happens on the Shadesmar side that shows where a potential is?

This is very important. Given Elokhar's pretty obvious glowing as he died, it means he definitely had a bond starting. It seems pretty easy to guess that he was only speaking the first Ideal (even if no-one on the VB side technically heard it) because the chances of Elokhar being vulnerable enough to Moash to be killed whilst already bonded are slim if he could glow. That means the spren had made its leap of faith into the physical realm. This means they know it is there and can't just disappear back to Shadesmar (because, as Aleksiel said, it is probably mindless). As they are on the lookout for the higher spren ( as stated by Venli) - no doubt for some nefarious purpose - it makes sense to grab the only one you know must be there.

I thought you were going to comment on how clearly Brandon likes killing off characters with the initial E.

Yes I agree - maybe we'll get it via Venli? I mean she seems to have the interest to ask Timbre that kind if thing - especially as the Listeners don't have a history of surgebinding really. I would have loved to get an Interlude about this - maybe Stump talking about it with her spren or something? Yeah I agree this currently seems to be the best option. Otherwise we essentially have to assume the Skybreakers are just stupid. I suppose they might be. Wait a second, it just occured to me, Kaladin doesn't run on Stormlight. He runs on Narrativium I'm sorry, I am obviously dense because I don't understand what you mean - could you try again and do it like an ELI5 for me? Possibly, though that makes it less likely as a hypothesis - at least until we get more information. The evidence isn't there to support it.

So I disagree here because her fluctuating between alts was often shown by the romantic arc. It wasn't necessary. On top of that, in order to stabilise her mental arc, she had to stabilise her romantic arc. It seems pretty tied up to me. There are worlds in which they didn't have to be tied. I just don't think this was one of them. Hey I can answer the points you raised here. I am actually not worried about the ship continuing or not - once I realised I may have read Shallan all wrong I can't get behind any romance for her because I don't feel I can judge her well enough anymore. That's part of the problem though - I thought I had a handle on her, and apparently I don't. Its sad and I feel misled as I said. That we know of I don't think Shallan created any personas/alts until very recently. In Earth terms she's nearly 20. Veil and Radiant aren't from Shallan's early childhood. Alts don't usually present until teens or early adulthood. They are usually created during a crisis. Shallan doesn't fragment until OB imo. This is also pretty textbook. I don't see why you categorise Shallan as a EP instead of an ANP - Shallan has been the one doing everything in recent memory without any (known) personas/alts. Most people in-world consider Shallan to be relatively normal. "Shallan" - the alt who identifies as Shallan is an EP because she feels the pain of her past actions and tries to hide it. She has the autobiography (nb Veil talks about Shallan bonding as a child so she knows it happened but it isn't her biography). She also is the one who has the blackouts and timelapses - likely as a coping mechanism to help her avoid additional pain at times. Also, it is a necessity to have at least one EP and one ANP. Radiant and Veil are definitely ANPs because they are designed to not have to think about painful things. Adolin's ability to recognise Shallan's personas is directly related to her ability as a Lightweaver (as I understood it - hopefully the exact wording was recorded) because that's what gives him the visual cues and it's something anyone could do if they paid Shallan sufficient attention for a long enough period. Yes, but that doesn't matter IRL because even if lightweaving were a thing the fact you can tell which alt is driving doesn't stop them being one person. You can recognize Veil as being in the driver's seat at a time but still not think of her as any less "real" than Shallan or Radiant. I don't know where Brandon went to for his research. It's possible that there's non-trivial differences in different parts of the world in terms of how such issues are diagnosed and treated. Medscape is American and BMJ Best Practice is British. The BMJ guidance is based on data from NICE which is the organisation that reviews all international research for the UK Healthcare system and uses it to advise on best and most cost-efficient medical practice (as a note the fact that the therapy I described is recommended shows how much better it must be - therapy is very expensive and NICE hates expensive). Current medical practice doesn't actually differ that much if you want your doctor to be using the latest and most advanced techniques. People can choose to go to a Witchdoctor or Shaman if they like, but those practices are not as effective in terms of outcomes as standardised medical practice. *shrugs* it not really even up for debate. This may be true but then I still end up back at point one - ie don't portray a RL disorder badly. If Shallan were well and then she chose Adolin and relied on him for emotional support I'd actually be ok with it, not mad about the idea but ok. I just think there are too few female characters out there who have mental health problems who manage on their own. Jasnah may be one. But if she also get all lovey-dovey with someone I'm done. I don't think this is what is happening here. It isn't a "theory" that Shallan has OSDD. If she were real person, it would be her diagnosis. The issue for people here is that a serious mental condition seems to have been badly portrayed based on the above comments. If Kal's depression had been equally badly treated then more people would have been up in arms. The alpha readers got an EMT in to make sure the surgery was decent and it reads like that. This reads like it maybe hasn't had equivalent care from a professional. If SA4 turns that around then I will relax. It just doesn't sound like he is going that way. But if you don't want to discuss Shallan's main arc then that's up to you.

So I figured here that Shallan's mother and her "friend" were not sure, tried to force Shallan to reveal her powers, succeeded, but were then killed by Shallan and Lin respectively. We know Lin joined the Ghostbloods at some point who have no issue with surgebinders per se tho I doubt they knew about Shallan. I think what happened was that the main body of the order never realised. They aren't going to interfere with a "crime of passion" where a husband kills his wife and her lover - especially as Lin says that it was a murder/suicide thing publically anyway. He kept Shallan's secret under wraps to make sure the sjkybreakers never got to her. I think that because drawing creationspren is common enough a thing (although Shallan is especially good at it) perhaps it is less "loud" for the Skybreakers to follow? I think this "loudness" is important. Perhaps it relates to the issue below ? Yes - pretty sure we see Adolin think this at some point about Kaladin (in WoR IIRC). Given Jezrien's untimely (or is it?) demise, I wonder if we are going to have Radiants replace the Heralds. Jezrien was said to be the best mad man who ever lived, and I think it could be argued that Kal is pretty great too. I don't want it to happen. I personally want Kaladin to grow old, and fat, happily married/partnered/part of a family as a favourite uncle somewhere warm and sunny and then skid into his grave with a cigarette in one hand and a glass of wine in the other. Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen. Anyway, I think that it is likely that something else is going on with Kaladin and Syl given how the rules don't apply. IIRC Syl is one of the last "true" Honorspren (as in she was made by Honor himself?) if thats right, then she is almost the same as an honorblade, except that she's beautiful and articulate of course.

Ok, so I am really rather confused. I hate being confused so I'm getting a bit angry. As a result, be warned I may meltdown slightly on this post. On the plus side, it might be entertaining to watch. It's long. Really long - not full of quotes tho so it doesn't look as long - but there are more of my own thoughts than usual so it may be a bit much for some. TL:DR - i'm annoyed because reasons. If you care that much - read them Ok, so here is the thing. Shallan's arc through OB reads like a very good depiction of a disorder called OSDD (Other specified dissociative disorder) which is a cluster of symptoms that resemble dissociative identity disorder (DID), which used to be called 'multiple personality disorder', but don't quite meet the criteria for DID. This website (http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html) gives a good run down for those of you wanting more info, but I'll just quickly summarise it here. Note that there may be some oversimplifications for clarity but the gist will be ok. People with all forms of dissociative identity disorders (including OSDD) suffer from a situation where they wall off sections of their personality from one another in one way or another. These are often called "alts" in common parlance. The amount of variance between the alts can be quite wide depending on which bits are sectioned off from each other, but it doesn't have to be that different. Sometimes alts are separated by how old they identify as being for example so the learned responses are different, but the appearance of the personality might not shift that much to an outsider. It's cause is rooted in early childhood when the building blocks of the personality are formed but still subject to change by the environment. The learned responses are essentially imprinted on the core personality at this stage and this helps solidify the core personality as a whole, rather than individual "chunks". Lack of attachment to parent figures (eg though abuse, neglect, being removed from the home, prolonged hospitalisation) means that the core personality not only isn't as solid as it might be, but that the learned responses added to it are often a problem. For example, a child in a neglectful home may not be taught a wide variety of coping mechanisms. We need a wide variety of resources available to us because you never know what is round the corner. For any one of the DID/OSDD disorders to be diagnosed, there have to be distinct identities formed. This is not a mood shift. It is not a dissociation like freezing or going numb (though those often coexist in the disorder). It is specifically that a person shifts from one identity to another and as such their thought and behaviour patterns shift accordingly. DID requires that there is amnesia between the alts. For example, if Fred has DID and has 2 alts, "Fred" and "George", then "Fred" remembers his life and everything he did but says he blackout and loses time and has no knowledge of "George". "George" says the same thing and has no knowledge of "Fred". OSDD is a mixed bag of related disorders that each don't quite meet the DID requirements for different reasons. Shallan most resembles "OSDD type 1b." Here's the quote about how it works: "... individuals with OSDD-1b might experience their alters more as different versions of themselves, though they're more likely to experience a noticeable change in skills, memory, temperament, or overall personality. It is important to note that even the least differentiated OSDD-1b parts are still more differentiated, separate, and autonomous than the most developed parts that can be present in borderline personality disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, or complex posttraumatic stress disorder, none of which involve dissociated parts that have a unique sense of self or self history. ... As well, some individuals with OSDD-1b do have highly distinct alters such as those often found in DID. For these individuals, the main defining factor is their lack of inter-identity amnesia." On top of that, have a look at how the memory thing is important: "... individuals with OSDD-1b do not black out or lose time. They may or may not have dissociative amnesia for aspects of their trauma history, but information flow between alters in an OSDD-1b system is much more consistent. While someone with DID might not realize that or when they lose time, someone with OSDD-1b is usually fully aware of their alters' activities and is very unlikely to find any evidence of unremembered activities. If they ever were to have a dissociative trance or fugue episode, it would be unassociated with their alters. They tend to struggle less with their memory on a day to day basis." Anyone else think this could have been written about Shallan. She reads like a textbook case to me. Just a quick thing about alts. There are two basic types; ANPs (apparently normal personalities) and EPs (emotional personalities). ANPs as their name suggests are the ones doing most of the day to day stuff. They are functional and may appear to be in complete control. They usually have a few coping mechanisms but when faced with an emotional situation they tend to "fail" because they are deliberately built to not handle heavy emotional struggles. That is where EPs come in. EPs have all the emotional elements of the personality put on them. They tend to be the alts that carry the person's history of abuse and the pain associated with it. Regarding treatment. According to medscape (a medical resource I use for my studies and is largely blocked by need for a subscription - tho you can get some bits for free) and the BMJ best practice stuff (another resource that you definitely need a sub to), the main goal is to help the person re-integrate their alts into one personality. Note re-integrate. These are not imagined constructs of an unhealthy mind, they are part of the core. Plenty of people with DID and OSDD struggle with reintegration and many, with adequate support and learning new coping mechanisms can be functional people while still having alts. Most will eventually spontaneously start to reintegrate at some point, but it is a messy process (even at the best of times) and people without adequate mental resources (eg coping mechanisms for stress) in place at the time are at risk of fragmenting again which is also painful. The mainstay of treatment initially is getting to a relationship of trust with the therapist. The second is to provide the client with different coping mechanisms that help them control the anxiety that causes them to shift identities. The third is to start talking about the past traumas that are the underlying cause of fragmentation (usually abuse during very early childhood, but there are plenty of of other situations that can cause it such as prolonged/repeated hospitalisation in infancy and childhood). This is the hardest bit and the reason that people with DID and related disorders are often in therapy for years. Without facing the pain of the past, the alts that are burying it won't be reintegrated into the whole. Some people manage to maintain a line of functionality by suppressing the alts with the pain. This may be a viable practice if the alt that identifies with the name on the person's birth certificate and remembers most of their autobiographical history, is otherwise an ANP. If the personality with the autobiography is an EP and suffers the pain of the memory, then it is much harder to achieve consistent and stable behaviour and thought patters without re-integration because the EP was essentially designed to feel the pain so the other alts don't have to. In my mind, Shallan is an EP, Veil is an ANP and Radiant is a smaller fragment ANP. Shallan is the one who feels the pain and despite her own repression of memories, she does remember them. If she turns around, confronts the pain and accepts it, then (because this is book and therefore likely easier than RL) she will likely reintegrate on her own. Please note; In all my reading on this subject I have not once come across the idea that it is ok to treat the alts differently. As an example, I have a brother and we get along great most of the time, but I sometimes get mad at him because he's a younger brother and therefore annoying as crem. That isn't treating him differently, he is still being treated as my brother in both settings. I can only get mad at him the way I do because he's my younger brother - no one else can get a rise out me like he can. I have been out drinking with him, but he doesn't become my "drinking buddy", he is my brother, who is also a friend, who I happen to be able to go out drinking with. In the same way, you can do different things with someone with OSDD or DID and treat them exactly the same way regardless of who they think they are at the time. This is really important. Whilst a person with the disorder may think of themselves as different people, those who have reintegrated recognise that they simply had "different me's". All the facets of the core personality are represented once reintegration occurs. Obviously some alts are "bigger" and "more dominant" than others so reintegtion may result in a complete person that seems very like one of the alts. There will still be subtle differences - particularly in skills learned. For example, If Shallan has an alt called "Clown" and "Clown" is a tiny fragment of the whole but Clown learns to juggle. Then while Shallan is fragmented, the "Shallan", "Veil" and "Radiant" alts will not be able to juggle, but "Clown" can. When she reintegrates, Shallan will be able to juggle. So anyway. Having now read the reddit beta read thread I am very concerned that BS has misrepresented a serious issue. OSDD and DID may not be common, but it isn't as rare as people think. It has also suffered the problem of being a useful literary device that people think they can play with to suit the needs of the narrative. That's why "multiple personality disorder" has such negative connotations now - it's been mischaracterised and misrepresented so badly. So what makes me concerned? Firstly, the idea that Adolin could recognise the "real" Shallan. IRL this is not possible because they are all real. Maybe the Shallan alt is the closest approximation to the complete Shallan, but that does't make Veil or Radiant (or "Clown" lol) any less a part of her. IRL anchoring an alt may allow an ANP alt to function in the long term, although they are always going to be at risk of deteriorating if they suffer emotional road-blocks. But anchoring an EP is not likely to last because they can't really cope - they were designed to suffer so that the rest of the system can function. It might work. It is still not as positive an outcome as reintegration has been found to be (multiple studies at this point according to my reading). Whilst people IRL need to judge their own particular situation themselves and decide (usually with the help of a therapist) what the best way to go is, in a fictional setting, isn't it better to take the path the is recognised as the better one? You aren't trying to subvert a trope here after all. Secondly, I am concerned that Shallan needed Adolin to "recognise" her in order for her to "stabilise". My inner feminist wanted to throw my book across the room about that. I didn't though because it's a kindle and my pragmatic side stopped me. Kaladin might have been "lightened" by Shallan in the chasm, but the impact of their relationship had no effect on his progression at the end of WoR as far as I can see. Dalinar's progression is about his choice - Evi may have given him some ideas but she is not the cause of his ability to progress. Even Cultivation didn't know if his "growth" that she allowed would make him Odium's at the end. It didn't, because Dalinar made a choice. Shallan, on the other hand, needed Adolin to "see" her because she couldn't manage it on her own. Her "choice" was between 2 men. She didn't even consider that she didn't have to choose either of them, or that she could actually keep it going if she wanted to. I mean, really? She couldn't convince Adolin that she simply needed more time and that it wasn't that she wanted Kaladin more but that at 17 it wasn't unreasonable to be a bit flighty? No, she had to choose between them. Thirdly I am concerned regarding the whole Kaladin/Shallan arc. I don't mind that she ended up with Adolin per se though I am very worried that it seems to be a "love conquers all" moment (it doesn't). What I don't understand is why so much time was spent on the Kal/Shallan thing in the first place. Why tie so much of Shallan's main arc into a romantic subplot? So many of her scenes are either in the presence of Kaladin or Adolin. Taking OB and WoR together I wonder if it is most of them. I don't think this is true for Kal. Adolin is a side character so he gets less screentime overall, but we even get quite alot of scenes with him without Shallan. So my question is why? I loved the chasm sequence in WoR, but why add the romance element at all? You can bring two characters to a point of understanding without it getting romantic. Storms, we see that happen with Adolin and Kal! Why try to suggest that Kal is being "bad" for her by suggesting he suggests that she hides things? It is no worse than Adolin enabling her dissociation which is essentially allowing her to hide anyway. I don't understand why Shallan has to have her arc shown via a "love triangle" aspect to show how different sides of her are reacting. She had plenty of inner conflict (Ghostbloods vs Jasnah anyone?). Even if the romance was going to tie in to make it easier to follow, why not have it as her struggling between telling Adolin the truth and wanting to hide it in case he hates her. That is a huge inner conflict. It feels like Shallan as the 17 year old girl couldn't have possibly had an inner conflict that wasn't about boys. So not only can her resolution come from a big strong man, but she can only portray her inner conflicts via her crushes. Anyway, I know I am overreacting somewhat, but having now read the beta-readers thread including Sanderson's comments there, I am feeling almost as low as I did when I finished the book the first time (when I felt there were serious problems but had little evidence to back up those feelings) I had rationalised it to myself that we may get a continuation of the OSDD issues that Shallan is facing because you don't just "get better" from it without serious work. I know Sanderson says she has a "long way to go", but given this paragraph I am certain he feels that he is basically done with it down and it's mostly an upward trend for Shallan now: "This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't [sic] quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)" Ok, on one hand, I'm glad he got where he wanted because as an artist it is important to be able to convey your meaning. But I find the idea that he meant to make this so close to OSDD then completely betray the rational theories surrounding it's management disturbing. That's right, disturbing. If he was advocating not using vaccines for Polio there'd be an outcry, but because this is a mental health issue, he gets a pass? No. I also feel a bit betrayed on a personal level because I don't like getting misled. IIRC there was a conversation somewhere on this forum that he said that if he wrote a romance love triangle thing, he'd want it to be obvious to most readers where he was going to end up. I don't feel that way. A simple bit of misdirection in terms of a love triangle is a few scenes then a clear break. Not two books worth of foreshadowing followed by a break that feels forced because it relates to the supposed resolution of a different arc which, as I mentioned above, is unrealistic (at best). I know Shallan's main arc can't be resolved quickly. But then maybe think about portraying her OSDD differently? Give her some space at the end to come to terms with what she is going through, maybe let her understand Wit's advice - and that it is shown on screen. Let us see her interact with Adolin like a normal human being instead of "Without you I fade". Do real people even talk like that? Ok, rant over. I know a lot of this is personal and I get that other people are happy with the outcome so this isn't trying to criticise that feeling. In fairness, I loved the book until the very end and my concerns are now colouring how I view the rest of it. The other arcs are mostly wonderful and as usual Brandon does a fantastic job of worldbuilding. I loved seeing more of the Azish and getting more understanding of Venli. But that doesn't, for me, negate the issues I've described above.

I agree - in fact I'd actually wonder if some of the biggest conflicts arose primarily because of tiny differences rather than big ones. People often get more angry with those they are close to. I agree, but Nale does imply he's been searching out surgebinders for some time in an attempt to prevent the desolation. For one thing, he's been picking them up and trying to turn them into Skybreakers. It may be only 6 years and we know his idea of time is likely warped (Ash's is - it seems reasonable that all the Heralds are in the same position given their madness) but he seems to think that he was somewhere recently then arrives and find food has rotted away. That suggests a "short" time to him is longer than most people would think of as short so if he thinks he's been doing it a while then that to me sounds like a long time. If it is a long time, then we likely had many protosurgebinders over the years. Not everyone who breaks will be appropriate, sure. But it still suggests that those who are appropriate will be bonded first. @Darvys re spren attraction. I was thinking about this last night and realised that Syl tells Kaladin that she found him "because the winds knew him" (tWoK). Perhaps protosurgebinders attract their related lesser spren and this creates ripples through shadesmar helping the higherspren find the person. So by this logic, then the cryptics found Shallan because of the creationspren. Logicspren led Ivory to Jasnah, Syl followed the windspren to Kaladin etc. Lift is followed by Lifespren in Edgedancer but we don't see her attract them before she is bonded but perhaps she did in some way? Her mother helped people, perhaps helping her mother with that was enough? I am unclear about the lesser spren related to the other orders but perhaps that might lead us to a clue about who is more likely to attract certain spren types. I don't think we have a set figure. That said, isn't he taking protosurgebinders before they bond and try to recruit them to the skybreakers? That implies he's been doing it a long time. He may not have been killing all that time, but he at least thought that it was worth watching for. We need to know how the bond is initiated. It is clearly the actions and thoughts (for at least some orders) that make the spren decide to cross into the physical realm. It is implied that they make a conscious decision, so presumably it is a choice rather than the person pulling them through. But even that isn't clear cut. Cenn (tWoK) says he sees wind swirl around Kaladin - and that happens long before Kaladin swears the first ideal. I know he is living it, but the words matter. So a spren can come through, wait around, and then bond at a later date? Is the bond formed in a moment or does it take weeks/months/years to solidify to a point where the human becomes aware of it? Is it different for different spren? (Side note: So Kal was already a kind of windrunner, but never attracted Nale. Doesn't that seem odd? He had plenty of alleged crimes to his name including escaping as a slave, also we know the Skybreakers were even at the battle where Kal kills Helaran because Helaran was a skybreaker. Why didn't they try and recruit him? Why didn't they sense him as the seem to have sensed the others?)

Yes I think this is a fair judgement to make - given that we have a 1 year time-skip forecast. I don't think she is particularly stable, but as long as she isn't stressed then she probably won't dissociate. The issue is that just sitting and resting isn't usually enough. She needs to learn coping mechanisms other than "run" (i.e dissociate into another person) or "hide" (i.e blackout). I'm guessing she and Adolin go on an extended honeymoon somewhere safe and she isn't faced with anything awful until the advent of the next book. Hooray. This is why forums were created Its ok, hate/anger is part of the grieving process - you'll get to acceptance just like @Dreamstorm did EDIT: Oh and @Rainier - fab post. Thanks for putting all that together. It was a wonderful way to show how Shallan's dissociation is affecting both herself and Pattern - I'm simply sorry I can only give you one upvote for it. I think it is very interesting how he changes moods from calm and supportive (as she's considering telling Adolin - ie the truth) to panicked as he sees her start to fragment.

Probably - tho that then undermines @maxal's point about Adolin not being chosen because they didn't even get to him. Good point - it may not even be the same for different types of spren. Cryptics and Inkspren seem to both watch for a while (Jasnah sees 3 inkspren when she bonds Ivory in the WoR prologue and Elhokar sees cryptics for ages before he bonds). But we don;t know how the spren found them. We know spren are attracted by things - anticipationspren etc, but surely they can't just teleport over Shadesmar to be wherever they need to be? Aren't some types of spren more common in different parts of Roshar? Does that mean in order to be a certain Radiant you were better off going to a particular place to bond (might link with Adolin not bonding yet) or is that a phenomenon that happened as a result of the Recreance? Argh so many questions. Brilliant - thank you for this. Do we know which ones lean in which directions or is it still under debate? Are there patterns within that (eg the female herald linked spren = more cultivation, or the first 5 are of Honor etc)? I can't quite place inkspren or lightspren for example. Neither seems to fit how I view Honor or Cultivation. He won it before Gavilar's death. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Mayalaran#History He was therefore 17 or younger at the time. It seems unlikely that he'd have been allowed to enter a formal duel with shards on the line before the age of 16. He has maybe had her seven or eight years? But Dalinar had a blade and he bonds the Stormfather. The Stormfather even sought him out to give him the visions. Gavilar also had a blade and was obviously also getting the visions prior to his death.

Hmm, its an interesting idea and one I'll probably have to go away and think about for a bit. It certainly fits with what you've mentioned in text. I thought that Odium is likely still somewhat bound/trapped by whatever it is that Honor did to him. Remember the 2nd letter in WoR? IIRC is says that Rayse is trapped in the system. This presumably means there is a serious block on his powers. I think part of him getting Oathgates etc is actually to free himself then reign down fire and fury upon all of Roshar. In the meantime, as a shard, he has some severe limitations as to what he can or can't do. He can obviously talk to a person's mind, because we see him talk to Dalinar and Taravangian but he presumably has no physical presence so cannot interact with many things directly. He has to work through agents.

I only started since joining here - but I used it earlier today when talking to my SO about how cold it was all of a sudden. He just took it in stride after a brief pause to check if I was referring to the storm we actually had earlier today. But he's basically as weird as me. He uses BSG expletives. I don;t ship Jasnah either. I like her as is. If she wanted to have a partner of any description I'd be all for it, but I agree with you that she doesn't seem to want or need one. And I don't think we are meant to feel like she is simply ignoring social convention because she can. I think she genuinely doesn't want to go down that path and doesn't think anyone should have the right to make her. It would have been very easy to make her feel like she was simply not getting married to make a point. I also agree with your Warbreaker comment I like how Sanderson has addressed the issue a little bit from the other side. Oh I know Shallan 'benefits' from being married to Adolin, but actually Navani pushed for it because she thought Adolin should be married and (presumably) start having children. He's sold off pretty quickly. Now we all know Shallan is worth her weight in gold from a marriage perspective as a KR (unless she's completely broken - but that's a different matter), but the Kholins were technically prepared to sell Adolin off to a lowly foreign House with no allies and no prospects when they agreed to the arrangement. I actually felt that Shallan, strangely, had more options than Adolin did - Jasnah would likely have supported if she'd said it was too sudden, but Adolin had Navani (who was pushing for it) likely encouraging him. Shallan however (a bit like in that article) goes along with it because it was the expected "normal" outcome. A bit like a dog finding it's leash perhaps? Yes I am very much looking forward to the Eshonai flashbacks (next book perhaps) because I think that the differences between the Parshendi and humans will be fascinating. I was thinking about this and how we see the Parshendi have war pairs - presumably 2 Parshendi who have some kind of "marriage" oath, and Eshonai thinks of Venli and her "once mate" as a scholar pair. As mateform is a thing, I wonder if pairs are always male/female in all aspects of their lives? I mean, if you don't have the desire to mate when not in mate form, then presumably the genders of both members of the pair is irrelevant? What about gender roles both in and outside of mateform? Are we going to see femalen Listeners expected to raise children or is their whole system different? We saw Eshonai's mother and she seems to have been involved in raising her girls, but that doesn't mean it is the norm. There aren't the same prejudices as the Alethi have about femalens fighting (Eshonai is their general for one thing) - but then that is true for a few human populations elsewhere on Roshar. There was some prejudice that Rlain mentioned iirc regarding skin patterns? I think we will see some prejudices (they are still people after all) but hopefully some interesting ones. It is probably possible to write some interesting ideas about that without making it too obvious an Earth parallel but still similar enough that the idea is debated (I just can't think of any right now)

Hey that article was a great read. Thanks for linking it. I think the idea of investigating gender norms in fantasy would be really interesting - although I guess it probably has been done? I think that understanding the roles in literature tell us a lot about society at the time of writing. I personally (as a woman) think Brandon generally does a good job with his female characters though I'm not always sure he "finishes" their arcs so well. Arranged marriage = success being something he has used multiple times for example. They haven't reduced my enjoyment of any given story as a whole, but it is overdone. Obviously his male characters end up getting into arranged marriages too, but as a genre, fantasy tends to have all the women get married off but some male characters stay single. Maybe, despite the high death rate and dragon count in fantasy, there are simply more men? If you have any more reading suggestions I'd love to see them. I guess gender norms come under sociology? I have done a little sociology as part of my degree, but it relates more to healthcare and accessing it. You know, cultural values/boundaries/race as a concept, "the sick role" etc. We didn't touch on the topic of gender norms in wider society. In order to try and drive my post back into the topic of the thread, I was thinking about how the characters would be "classified" by the article's 3 categories. This is where I think Sanderson did a good job because whilst you could put most of them in, there is always a 'but' floating there - much more like real women than you sometimes see in the genre. We also aren't subjected to the other idea of "maiden", "mother" and "crone". The only author who has successfully pulled that off regularly for me was Terry Pratchett and that was because he subverted it so storming well.

Oh I'm actually really pleased with that An interesting character is much better than a boring one. It doesn't matter if you "don't like them", but its a pity to be bored reading about a character.