PhineasGage

I think it is just that because the Rosharan year is longer, and the months are longer, 7months on Roshar = 9 Earth months. Without proper anti-natal care a 7 month old foetus would be hard pushed to survive at all - their lungs are not nearly developed enough and they cant control their body temp or blood sugar well.

There is only going to be approximately 5-6 years between the back 5 and the front 5 (iirc from a WoB I can't find) . Even if there is a total of 2 years worth of timeskips between now and the end of book 5 (seems unlikely to be more) that is only 8 years at most. That would leave these children between the ages of 8 and 11. I can't see BS pushing them into fighing in any great extent. Not only that, but we won't get flashbacks from them (at least they arent slated to be flashback characters) so they aren't likely to take on "Main character" roles anyway.

Not sure where you are heading with this? A Rosharan year is 10 months long. So 3 months is about right if she gets pregnant immediately. I assume you don't think Shallan is heading in this direction? EDIT: finally no longer a son of honor - Now I am King's Wit. Call me Hoid no more rep for me please (jk -i love getting rep, its like validation for my terrible life choices)

@ScavellTane so there is no WoB so a baby is definitely a possibility. Given the projected timeskip of one year, a baby born to Adolin and Shallan would be somewhere in the region of 3 months old at most. To summarise the arguments that were made previously (that we can definitely revisit now) - some members here feel that a baby would be the worst possible situation for all concerned - including the kid. Some feel it would rob Shallan of agency (it would be difficult to manage her time as a KR and a very young child), some feel that it would be very bad for the child and SHallan given her very fractured mental state, some feel it would be unfair on Adolin because he would likely have to take a carer role for both his wife and his child, rather than sharing the carer role with Shallan. Others feel that a baby would be the best thing for Shallan because it would give her agency as long as she chose motherhood, some feel she would benefit mentally by being less introspective/selfish because she would focus on a baby. Yet others feel it would be beneficial to the couple as a way of binding them together more closely. If you want more detail I would recommend reading up - probably somewhere in the pages 20-30 iirc. If not, please add your thoughts to the matter. I think you'll find the majority of the members regularly posting here are anti-the idea of a baby but if there is good evidence that a baby might be good then we'd be happy to hear it. @SLNC Ha - no, its 58pages - nowhere near 1000. I am sure I missed plenty of things that could be considered as evidence (for either side - esp Adolin as I didn't take into account the "light" link) so I'd be very happy to get feedback. I'll link it here and maybe put it in my signature (if I make one) once its up. I just need to get round to putting it up - but I need my SO to help me do that because I haven't got a clue!

Ok, I can immediately see some pieces of info that might be of use here but I can't tie them together yet: All the male Heralds are on the top-side of the double eye diagram and relate to the following orders: WS, SW, BS, WR, SB (anyone else surprised how much those initials mirror each other....?) All the female Heralds are on the bottom side of the double eye diagram and relate to the following orders: DB, ED, TW, LW, EC, (much less mirroring so I'm probably reading too much into this). We know all spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation but some align more with one side than the other. I think we could argue from what we know of the BS, WR, and SB that these feel more "Honor" like and EC, LW and ED all feel more Cultivation like. On top of that the honorspren and cultivation spren fit the pattern. I am just thinking aboout the genders of our KR (as far as I can tell all are cis-gendered so I'm not going to go into gender identity here for simplicity at this stage), Aside from Renarin and Venli, all our Radiants are the same gender as their Herald. Renarin and Venli are "new" in that a corrupted spren has never bonded with a human before as far as we know and no uncorrupted spren has bonded (and overwritten the spren of) a Listener. On top of that, I believe that the spren for most of our Knights (not Dalinar who's spren is unique anyway) the bonded spren identifies as the opposite gender of the radiant concerned. Again, Renarin and Venli break this (Timbre is female right?) Note that this does not seem to have to be true because Ym was a TW and as far as we know, his was a normal spren. But then Stump is female and fits the pattern again. Not sure this is pure coincidence? Ok, I've run out of steam for now - anything else jump out at anyone? I see your point, but it implies that Lightweavers are going to live very short lives during desolations. How much soul can you really afford to lose after all? I also think that if there were suitable soul-less bodies on Roshar, most of the Fused could probably use them - it is just that those cannot actually exist long enough to be useful. As I said, her constant use of her own soul is important, and is very different to what Wit does in Kholinar (he acts like a mirror or a lens to reflect and focus otherpeople's pain, rather than his own) despite Rosharan lightweaving being closest to the Yolish original (per Ars Arcanum). I think she is damaging herself, but likely it is reparable - particularly as stormlight can heal the spirit web. Perhaps Shallan is slicing bits off but as they "die" her stormlight reattaches them because she views her soul as whole (her mind might be broken, but not her soul I think in her own perception). EDIT @insert_anagram_here Re -essay - I haven't published but I've finished editing it and got a proof-read done. There are likely still some minor issues like typos but I can't change too much now because it was written pre-OB (sometime last year iirc) and I don't want to colour it with post OB analysis. I'd rather do a new essay to add to it. I plan on getting it up on a website soon so people can read it if they like but be warned it is long.

Oh yes I agree - sorry I misunderstood. He does link her with Tien multiple times (the only person he does that with which is important) but he also links her with his mother and father at least once. Just because you can see traits that remind you of loved ones doesn't mean the feelings have to be the same at all. But you are more likely to like someone that reminds you of someone you love because you already know how to interact with them positively. I actually liken Kaladin's "acceptance" to the way Jane Eyre tries to suppress her feelings for Mr Rochester in "Jane Eyre" by Charlotte Bronte. I suppose I should put this in spoilers tho if you haven't read Jane Eyre what are you doing with your life? *ahem* Sorry I have strong feelings on this matter apparently. @SLNC thanks for finding that WoB ! I see reborn as the same as resurrection personally. I view it in the same way as the Fused are reborn in the Everstorm. They never truly die. I don't think she is destroying her soul in the way you are describing but I think he soulcasing may have made her vulnerable to fragmentation in the first place by dividing herself up like this.

Morning all - ready for another Phin-takes-over-the-page post? I hope so. If not just ignore me and carry on I had some problems quoting this morning so if i've missed anyone i'm sorry. So this is your quote and I just want to point out that Veil has an almost identical thought regarding the refugees (can't find the quote tho). Essentially Shallan has pushed her worries onto the Veil alt. I dont think Adolin is having this kind of thought at all. Perhaps I am denigrating him, but he goes out of his way to buy a new outfit whereas both Kaladin and Shallan go out of their way to help the people of Kholinar whilst doing the reconnaissance required. So I was actually referring to the KR as a whole. That said, I think both Jasnah and Shallan are at least 1 level ahead of Kaladin so they would be more powerful. Remember that adhesion is actually the surge related to air pressure. Imagine if he can essentially suck all the air out of an area. He could suffocate an entire army in theory. That's pretty OP. Or he could massively increase air pressure in an area and make people's lungs burst --> killing them. I don't see Kaladin as a person doing that but there is no reason why he couldn't in theory. I actually think it is a little more nuanced than that. Shallan has bought herself time to heal and reintroduce herself to her whole identity. In OSDD there are periods at the beginning that dominating over your alts can be helpful and perhaps this is what BS is aiming at. I think that if Shallan were real she'd actually be past that stage but he has to be allowed a little licence to tell the story the way he wants . She still has to understand how to manage her anxiety (which is still going to cause her problems) and perhaps Adolin can help with that, but once she reintegrates then she will have to really understand that she is all three of her alts. Not just one of them. She may still decide that Adolin is the bet option, but the realisation that approximately 2/3rd of her don't love him is going to be painful for the both of them I think. As she reintegrates, she may realise that enough of her oves him so it doesn't matter. Or she may decide to go another way. I feel the foreshawdowing points away from Adolin, but either way it doesn't actually matter - she has only take the first step and we all know that the most important step is the next one ! I had a go at this when I wrote my WoR essay - and it is really difficult. Firstly, because (for me) Kaladin and the wind are so closely entwined that it is difficult not to see Kaladin when you see the word wind and vice versa. Adolin is not personified in quite the same way though if I had to choose something I'd choose light - especially sunlight, and this is more obvious in OB than it was previously. Indeed I don't think I specifically addressed it. Shallan is also personified by light more than anything so it can be difficult to identify when "light" should be inferred as Adolin or Shallan. That being said, in OB particularly, Shallan might be identified with light, but she is actually drawn to darkness/storms/rain etc. I am still doing my heavy re-read notetaking thing which is looking at everything I think is interesting, not just related to shipping, so it's slow going. Once it is done, I'll pull something more concrete together. I didn't read that WoB the same way at all actually. I get this is your interpretation and it is perfectly valid, but the problem with WoBs is (a) they are not actually proper canon - he reserves the right to change things and (b) because we don't know where he is going, his remarks might work for all kinds of outcmes. They therefore have to be taken with a pinch of salt - or at least be very careful when interpreting them. As soon as we move away from the actual language used we run the possibility of essentially creating new meaning via a kind of chinese-whispers. I also don't think BS has explicitly states that the "real" Shallan Adolin sees is actually any more real than Veil or Radiant. Indeed he hints at the opposite when he says that she would be seen as one soul, not 3 (can anyone find me the link to this WoB please?) I am not sure it matters how Adolin recognises her. Mainly because I am of the opinion that in order to "recognise" one aspect you have to assume the others are essentially products of a diseased mind (ie hallucinations or whatever). Shallan's mind is not diseased, it is broken into pieces but it otherwise functions normally. Yes, I am very much looking forward to you analysis of this. I think it likely has intersting things in other places too. I'll probably go back and see if there is other input elsewhere in WoR/tWoK that might also fit with this idea. Unless of course you are doing that too? Also true. It really is a difficult topic to discuss. I think it would be easier if we had concrete "foreshadowing" like we have identified for Shalladin. I think light and sunlight should probably be our guiding star (pun intended) on this one. See when Shallan sepcifically thinks about the sun. The only other aspect that I can think of is natural history vs art. Yes, he was safer not being married to Shallan. Probably would have been better off with May Aladar (who seems to have been introduced randomly frequently in OB?) and just hitting a greater side character role. I think the one thing keeping him alive right now is the Sadeas murder and the lack of ramifications from that. Once that goes, he loses a lot of plot points tying him to life - only the Maya arc is left imo and I'm not sure that is going to be a happy ending - I just can't quite see a cultivationspren going "oh yeah murder thats just fine with me". @invisbleblue - Welcome aboard the not-yet-sinking-but-definitely-in-trouble SS Shalladin. We've got great wifi and dental, but the food is all gone and we're out of water too - try not to drink the seawater - it makes you craaaaaaazy. *ahem*. Yes I agree. I think he has a serious possibility of being Odium's champion as a result. Note that the idea of a champion is still going according to Mr T at the end. Dalinar "recognised" something in the eyes of the champion he saw in the vision. Whilst I think it also hinted that he could be the champion (and nearly was) I don't think that's it over and done. Renarin is invisible to Odium afaik so it can't be him. That, to me anyway, leaves Kaladin and Adolin. Kaladin isn't going to be destroyed by Odium imo - he's immune to the Thrill so likely safer from Odium than Adolin is (who we know does feel the Thrill) in all kinds of ways. On top of that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless in a way that Kaladin rarely is. If SHallan's revelation hurts Adolin (seems likely) then he could go down that route. 1) Good point - he adjusted it to make the split more noticeable but he didn't add it to make it more noticable. 2) Not sure that we can say this for certain. I trust that BS is a good author who hasn't put the foreshadowing in for no reason and therefore I agree with you. BUT I think it is possible that we have read too much into it and could still be disappointed. Thats more a devil's advocacy position, but it needs to be said. Coincidence ? I do not think so... Sorry, I'm thick so I'm not sure what you are getting at here - please ELI5 for me? "Fun" for a given value of fun I think it is going to be Kaladin personally, and he is going to do so only very reluctantly - after all he has spent much of his arc learning to like and value adolin. ROFL. Nominated for Ship's Comedian? Yes this is similar to how i got there too. I also got there because i like Shallan and i think the foreshadowing points this way from that angle too. I have long felt that Adolin wants a relationship for its own sake rather than the specific person. I kinda mentioned my own Adolin death scenario above if you are interested. I am not sure I like Brandon's use of "love" in this WoB tho - I think it was used to ensure we understood that her feelings for both Kaladin and Adolin are not that different in terms of their intensity. I do very much agree that choice is very important to him but that begs the question why he made Shallan choose either one when she could (and probably should) have chosen neither. As said elsewhere, the wedding goes off without a hitch - we see Dalinar think about it afterwards when he is writing his book. Given we also have a time-skip coming it would be odd not to see that conflict on screen and in real-time. Yes indeed - at best (in terms of staying married) if she admits that she doesn't love Adolin then she has to stay in a loveless marriage whilst pining for either freedom, the man she loves, or both. Wow wouldn't that be a story of sunshine and cake.... The marriage should only be continued if she does actually love Adolin. Anything else would be detrimental to her story. I guess this is one referring to confirmation bias? If so it is a very good point. This is why I think we need evidence wherever possible and not just "i feel" kind of stuff. I know there is a lot of stuff that can be seen as foreshadowing for Shalladin - because I can find it. From my perspective, I found much less evidence (in book) for the safety and security of Adolin/Shallan marriage and that this is over. I would love someone to put together a complete list of Shadolin stuff - and argue point for point against the foreshadowing for Shalladin - not just "oh you are just reading too much into it" which is not a valid argument when addressing an author that we all know likes foreshadowing. Yes please! You will probably get started on it sooner than i can for one thing but also the more people that do this the better. We will all spot/miss different things and come to different conclusions. Yeah I think this is possibly more important than it appears at first glance. Especially given the "Winds Alight" (Wind = Kal, Light = Shallan) ketek from Navani in WoR. I am not so good at this kind of thing either. Prose I can do, poetry, not so much. Yes I felt this way too. It was very odd. I also felt that the group was almost pushed into consensus at the end (well, more that group dynamics tend to result in consensus) - Shalladin shippers came round to the idea of Shadolin, and for the life of me I can't understand why. I mean, I can - group dynamics are very important when we form opinions but the group dynamic -> opinion and the book seem to contradict each other to me. I agree - unless it is done explicitly to show that he can (and imo will) go there eventually. Actually I thought his "acceptance" is exactly the same as he had at the end of WoR. He just doesn't feel worthy (yet) so he isn't going to fight for her. I don't think he'll actually drop the atraction as much as he'd like to make himself believe. I feel we may see Shallan and Kaladin separated in the time skip so each thinks they have gotten over each other and then they get pushed together again and thus sparks fly. Iirc, she then resurrects them as they die. I don't think they are actually being destroyed. I agree tho that she is "doing it wrong" and needs to do more like what Wit does in the epilogue to lightweave safely on Roshar.

Morning. So I've tried to do some reading on the subject but I am still way behind you both on this. I have found a couple of pieces that I think relate somewhat to the discussion that might be of some interest. This one is an abstract the briefly describes how Jungian complexes can fit into a system that devolves to true DID. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2808130 As It is an abstract it isn't very detailed but it does help reconcile the idea of personas into alters. It was published in 1989. This one is a dissertation from 2010 https://search.proquest.com/openview/4d14bcf646dcb45a3f9472d4b44f4ac1/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y It does a decent literature review (at least I thought so but my background is admittedly extremely limited) and tries to use Jungs theories to view DID and other dissociation states as non-pathological (in that they are coping mechanisms rather that the result of disease). Obviously, they relate specifically to DID, not OSDD so there are limitations in them with regards to how I would relate them to Shallan, but there are interesting concepts in both because they allow for a "spectrum" between normal personals and the fragmentation of identity. On top of that, both are quite old in terms of understanding of DID and related disorders so there is likely more up to date information out there but I couldn't find any during my limited google search for topics I could understand that were also relevant. I could do a more thorough search but I am not sure it will add to the discussion at this time. I actually disagree here - Shallan has been using personas in my opinion for some time. She puts on a face to confront Jasnah in tWoK that is much more assertive than the girl she seemed to be on the Wind's Pleasure. She also had slightly different personas at home - from the cringing, withdrawn girl to the one who made her brothers laugh "to drive back the darkness". She displayed different aspects of herself to cope with different situations. These are not to be confused with her dissociation that she goes through when she killed her father (the coldness of clarity) because that is more like a combat stress reaction than anything imo (there is likely a better term for this particular situation?). I think she started using her personas more consciously as of WoR when she lightweaves (and maybe soulcasts ? it is unclear at this point) on herself to make herself able to face Dalinar and Navani to tell them of Jasnah's "death" and then obviously creating Veil. Veil at this point was still Shallan. Indeed in PoV she still thinks as Shallan, and considers Veil to just be a version of herself. Definitely a mask - one she created specifically to do a job Shallan never had to do - ie infiltrate the Ghostbloods. She starts thinking more abut Veil being different in the chasms with Kaladin (she thinks it is a pity Veil wasn't "down here") but even then, it isn't really more than a persona because as she relaxes with Kaladin the full personality comes out. This is not true with OB where she has definitely split and her identities are truly separate. She is definitely a "multiple" at this point because we can see them believe they have different selves (egos I guess in Jungian terms). This is not true for personas who all describe one ego that they represent in different ways. According to medscape treatment for DID and OSDD generally starts with CBT to help with leaning new coping strategies because you want the person to be able to choose different strategies other than switching alts or simply dissociating. Once that happens you can start to explore the past (but you have to be guided by the client of course) and this happens very slowly, usually in a spiral pattern where you retrun to CBT frequently. Spontaneous reintegration can happen and because it is unpredictable, the coping mechanisms are the most important - the person needs to have as many weapons in their arsenal as possible to face it. As I understand it, because treatment is patient centred you only go into the past in depth if the client requests it. That said, an important aspect of preventing anxiety that arises from the past is helping the client "accept" the truth of it and accept that they are in no way to blame. It seems that the dissonance of knowing the pain what was done whilst feeling to blame for what was done seems to be the core of the anxiety that presents later in life. Indeed I think this is why Shallan fractures when she does - she acknowledges the past (she killed her mother) but I don't think she has accepted that she was not to blame for her mother attacking her. That might just be my read on it though. My point is that different clients will need different amounts of time focusing on their personal history to get that "closure". I'm doing my psych block right now and actually none of the psychiatrists I have seen do this at all. They just talk to the patient the same way any other doctor does. It just takes longer because their "examination" is of the thoughts and feelings of the patient rather than their heart sounds/ breathing sounds etc. Occasionally they may disengage from an aggressive patient by looking away or blocking the view of them, but in general it is just like the normal "talk across the desk" you see from any other specialty. If they think the patient needs more psychological support then they refer them to a psychologist because you should use the person best trained for the job. In the hospital here there are several clinical (? I assume) psychologists who work with the patients in much greater detail than any of the doctors. But then a doctor will see each in-patient every day (usually) whereas a psychologist likely will only see each patient once a week or so. The doctor's role is diagnosis and pharmacological treatment and then referral to specific therapists in accordance with what is likely the best for that individual case. The psychological training simply wouldn't be detailed enough (at least in the UK and Cyprus from what I've seen) to be of any great use. EDIT - ugh I've been made a son of Honor (rep title) - I didn't ask for that

I must admit that this is the best evidence for it being genuinely closed. But then I see all the foreshadowing and think, "Huh, the ending is no more deliberate than any of this." There is so much foreshadowing and plenty of it cannot be dismissed as only being wishful thinking. On top of that, whilst this may be a romanticisation of an OSDD sufferer "gaining control" as a temporary stop gap (she's a bit too far gone imo for this to work IRL but I gues we can allow BS some wiggle room for story purposes), she still needs to relaise she is one person. She hasn't done that during the wedding. Indeed the 3 of the are still very much seen as unique individuals. Shallan just "reigns over them" for now. Awesome - thank you for finding that! I don't think we should assume massively longer life expectancy. Perhaps Dalinar as he is bonded to a massive splinter of Honor, but that presumably is not the norm. Also perhaps for anyone who becomes a new Herald if that is a thing - but I suspect that if this happens it won't give massive life expectancy because Cultivation is not going to put power behind immortality (Cultivation needs death as part of life and growth imo) and Honor's power is too splintered. Don't be so sure. Want a list of all the foreshadowing? We can definitely provide - we've been thinking about this a long time now. Exactly. I am glad Kaladin is free for now. I don't think Shadolin is the best outcome for Shallan or Adolin and I think they are heading for problems. I especially think Adolin has a massive target on his head now he is married to Shallan. What happens if he accidentally stops her acting for the Ghostbloods? Do they assassinate him? And they are by no means the only group that might decide he is better off dead. I think Adolin is in love with the idea of being in love. So he wants to settle down. I'm not sure that makes him ready so much as at least the most willing to put the work in for now. I'm not convinced that he'll stay that way once the gloss of the relationship has worn off a bit. It does. BS is normally very good at putting in hidden foreshadowing and this was hardly hidden. I think he is at risk of "lying" to his readers (something he doesn't want to do) if he doesn't eventually go there.

@SLNC I haven't seen anything about Jungian personas and their relation to OSDD. I'll go and have a look. There is definitely something there because Shallan uses fairly normal personas initially that then take on their own individual identities that fight to dominate the consciousness and drive the body. They are a representation of very poorly crystalised personality which is a result of poor attachment in childhood. The structures that are formed are at risk of fragmenting because they are relatively loosely held together and usually the person knows very few healthy coping strategies. I'll need to read the Jungian basics that @Kingsdaughter613 sent first though so I can tease out more detail from the texts I find.

I had a read of that persona link you sent and I agree that Shallan starts off using true personas - Veil is a "version" of Shallan she uses when she needs to go places that Shallan can't However, as I said, OSDD can fracture much later than you seem to believe (based on international research as summarised in medscape). It does have to happen on a background of childhood abuse or neglect, but doesn't have to manifest until much later. Indeed, that is one of the major challenges of treating it. This is a description of OSDD. Alters don't have to be unaware of each other - indeed Shallan is actually textbook for this one specific subtype of this case. http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html (paragraph about halfway down the page is the one i mean) The difference between a persona and an alt is the understanding of the autobiography. From what I understand, in a pathological persona system (which is a variant on the normal coping mechanism), there is one identity that identifies overly strongly with one aspect of that person - eg their job. That persona knows who and what they are and what they have done. They may have repressed memories and even false memories but they don't sometimes think they are different people. Even of there is more than one persona , each is still identified as "me". It might be "home me" and "work me" and "17th shard me" but they are all still "me". Alts are different and this is clearly demonstrated by Veil. No matter which alt we get, we see them think as Shallan, Veil or Radiant and they talk about each other as separate individuals. On top of that, we see Veil doesn't identify with Shallan's autobiography when she talks about Shallan lightweaving as a child. Even at the wedding Veil says something like "This is good for you" (em mine). They have different characteristics because the core personality is split. They split their skill sets, indeed even if either Veil or Shallan were to hold the shardblade, only Radiant actually knows anything about it so chances are they would be less proficient than her. This is not a normal reaction, or indeed a normal variant. It is uncontrolled much of the time and switching tends to happen when an identity is faced with a stressor that the identity isn't built to handle. Regarding DID, you mentioned that recalling memories is key and this is what Shallan is doing so it can't be DID. I disagree. In order for DID or OSDD to start the process of reintegration the person needs to accept the truth of the situation - Shallan hasn't really done this yet. Oh she said the words, but she isn't thinking about it at all as far as we can see - she tries to stuff it into the back of her mind and when she can't she fragments. That gives her an alt she can push the pain onto. The lightweaving can augment fragmentation because she can change the outward appearance of each alt too. I don't think lightweaving can be said to relate more to personas than alts. They both work. You are right, I didn't understand, and I still don't think I do. How do you define borders in this case so I can see what you mean? Could you give me an example of what a "weak border" might look like of absence of borders? I haven't read all the Jungian stuff but I'll go and have a look now and get back to you regarding it. Yeah it was very accurate for me too. I think the MB is a really good test considering how little time psychology has actually had to get in with the "real science" crowd. I mean, it still gets a lot of trouble for being a "soft science" but it will get there eventually - it's just got to get past the initial rejection and that takes time. I got listed as "the debater" which was really accurate because I love playing devil's advocate. It has occasionally got me in trouble - I can't think why..... Yeah, that sounds much more like fun! And I wouldn't worry quite so much about not being able to rub things out because I could plan a bit better with the ruler. I know that Art therapy is totally non-judgmental but at the same time, it would always be there at the back of my mind. And the stupidest thing is I would then worry about worrying about it. *rolls eyes* And I hate feeling stupid!

Yes that was true - even without knowing the exact ratio of different orders to each other. It is also possible that Maya is accidentally altering Adolin in a subtle manner so he resembles her more? We don't know how symbiotic the relationship is. All we know is that "live" spren guide/alter their bonded humans. All Shardbearers may have slight personality tweaks the longer they hold the blade but if they are subtle and change only slowly then it wouldn't appear to be anything extraordinary. I too find Adolin pretty boring though. I'd be interested to find out how he might react to losing some free will if he is being altered slightly by Maya. Unlike many, I am less sure an Edgedancer would be ok with murder. I know some orders are ok with it (meh) but I don't think there has been a specific WoB on Edgedancers iirc.

Ok, that makes sense, they cant have been the honorblades, because those still exist and seem fully functional, but perhaps they were something else? Tho that would mean we would need some evidence of this which we don't have yet. This would kinda tie in with my mini-theory (on pg1 of this thread) that they were corrupted by Odium. I thought they were essentially just normal spren but you seem to be suggesting that they were more like god-spren that got corrupted. It certainly could work. We only have one other group that seems to have no other links to it and that is the 10 fools but I can't see a link to the Unmade with them

Perhaps - I thought Wit was pretty clear in what needs to happen. I do see your point though - I'm just not sure you need to explain it for her arc to work with both a realistic portrayal for those who recognise it as well as function as a story-telling mechanism. I mean, multiple personality disorder (whilst poorly portrayed) is something people recognise in terms of storytelling gimics. As long as he can push the idea that Shallan needs to recognise herself as one (eg via one Wit conversation) then I think her can probably pull it off. As Wit is now a full blown LW he is definitely going to be around more. And he clearly relates to Shallan. If she follows Kaladin's pattern of Wit interactions then she is due another one in the next book anyway. He needs to tell her another story. That's certainly a possibility. It also will feel even more like a betrayal to Kaladin than Elhokar's death did. I am just feeling that Moash is going to be off killing heralds. Perhaps Adolin gets caught out while Moash targets Taln or Ash who will presumably in Urithiru? I don't find that appealing though. I am not wanting Adolin to die, but if he has to do so, I would rather he got something done about his murder. It feels.... wrong that its just being accepted and okayed. Yes this is true - Szeth as a flashback could cover both recent and more distant flashbacks. That said, I currently feel we need more understanding of the Listeners and that this will help Kal get to level 4 via interactions Rlain in the context of Venli's flashbacks. Its a preference, but it doesn't really matter as long as it works Pretty sure this is a thing. I have a feeling there is a WoB on investiture causing reduced sickness and extended life. Can't find it tho (sorry) Personally though, I'd prefer Adolin to die quite soon or there to be a divorce - I can't see there being any point in foreshadowing Shalladin if it isn't going to happen until +50years. I'd prefer divorce over Adolin's death. I think that whilst there are religious issues surrounding divorce, people do make mistakes and it isn't actually a good idea to go through life with both of you being unhappy just because it is the "right" thing to do. Sure relationships take work, but at some point, is the amount of work you are putting in reasonable given what you and your partner get out of the relationship? They got married very young (and frankly both quite immature). Would it be so wrong to end the marriage - esp if there are no children - because they are both unhappy in it?

Ha - one good thing about the SS Shalladin is that she has excellent wifi so I can keep up with other theories unrelated to shipping whilst starving to death on the deck and looking for land. So I just want to clear up what you said - are you suggesting that after Aharietiam that Odium made the Unmade and they then started doing things like the false desolations? I was under the impression that they pre-existed the last desolation but that they somehow changed (perhaps as a result of being separated in some form from Odium) and started doing things more of their own free will? So perhaps Bo-Ado-Mishram became more active to start the false desolation? Sorry, I'm just not surewhich way you are suggesting. So I'm just spit-balling here but what about this; We know spren "slumber" after they lose their bond to a person. What if the Unmade "slumbered" after Odium was banished each time. They started waking up as the walls around Odium's prison started to crack (ie as whichever herald that eventually breaks, starts breaking). That would make them nigh impossible to find between desolations and explain why nothing had been done about them. They also couldn't be dealt with during a desolation easily because of all the fused/voidbringers etc. The false desolation may have been a period that woke them up for some reason - perhaps Taln nearly gave way then but managed to strengthen his resolve in some way? Perhaps human activity sparked it (kinda like anthropogenic global warming in contrast with "normal climate change") so they woke up but without as many voidbringers around, plus more time since the last desolation, there had been time for scientific research into trapping spren. This mean the radiants had time, the resources, and a good reason to go after the unmade directly because they knew the Unmade were acting without Odium's direct interference.

I don't know that it has to be common knowledge. He could be using a real life situation to build the story - I doubt anyone thinks Shallan should just "be well" now - even without the knowledge. He can then continue to follow a life-like arc whilst having her make appropriate decisions for the story. Its the same with addiction for Teft and Dalinar. I don't think anyone expects them to just "be well" now either - addiction is a life-long problem and someone with it always has to bear in mind that they can lose control of it very easily. I dn't see why anyone should assume that Shallan should be any different. I know people got annoyed with Kaladin still being mopey in WoR but honestly, making him happy and bouncy would have made a mockery of the character, I just think we can be true to life and manage the story. True, though that would mean double flashback sequence - this is supposed to be Eshonai's book iirc? Venli and Eshonai can't get good flashbacks for the Urithiru crowd (based on current evidence) so we'd either need mini-flashbacks from multiple PoVs (like we got mini-Kaladin flashes) to get the story, or he needs it to be limited in terms of the level of detail he needs to cover. If too many things happen we'd have to wonder why he skips the period rather than writing it out in real time. I agree. I personally could cope with Shadolin being endgame as long as the romantic arc is filled in properly. I would be sorry about the loss of all the Shalladin foreshadowing though so that will always be my preferred ship. I actually think by marrying Shallan, Adolin has painted a great big "kill me" sign on his back. Someone's gonna end up geting him. If the skybreakers are still killing proto-radiants and Adolin is bonding Maya then its only a matter of time before the wrong person finds out he killed Sadeas. The reachers don;t want to bond with humans atm though - they are still mad at us. That said, of any of those on the boat, Adolin seemed to get the best rapport with them. Oh that's interesting. I don't know - maybe its a form of some sort? It can't be Ba Ado Mishram exactly because the storm is new but perhaps it is a version of the Unmade? On that note, I thought Mishram and Mishin (the blue moon iirc) had similar names and that might be relevant? Yes I know.... Personally I have a problem with any order that thinks Sadeas had it coming. He deserved justice not vengeance. Anyone else think it is interesting that Dalinar describes Adolin as "steady" in the chapter where Sadeas' body is found. Especially as steady is not that good a way to describe someone who murdered on impulse.

Gosh, well having read the wiki on humanistic psychology, it has me really excited. I mean I think it is clear that whether deliberately or not, Brandon is using at least some of these principles to underpin his writing. From the wiki: And I think this meshes really well with Sanderson as a person because not only are his own religious beliefs important to him but he spent a good persiod of time in Korea as a missionary so his own thought proces about people likely reflects a mix of these principles. My feeling is that the 1st ideal for the orders in particular is very much about self-actualisation - the meaning of the ideal varies from person to person and will likely change over a person's life. As long as you live in accordance with how you interpret the ideal, then you are fine, but as soon as any cognitive dissonance creeps in you start getting problems like Kaladin had with Syl. I was also thinking about the progress of our Main characters - self actualisation is a vital part of each of them progressing as Radiants - not only do they have to say the ideal, they must understand it well enough so that they can live it going forward. I know we kinda started on Adolin from the previous thread so I wondered if we could quickly address him here - I am not so sure he has any self-actualisation (yet). It doesn't make him a bad person, but it would explain his relative lack of growth. If you disagree, I am happy to be corrected - I just want to be sure I understand the basics. Re Navani - I think this means that because she can use words she can express herself more acutely than if it was just in a drawing? Does that mean we need Shallan to become more inclined to use words than her art or can she just use her art differently? Re Adolin - that is a really good point. He needs to feel like he is doing something and can release it through practice and action. Actually we see him think something like this when he fights Eshonai at the end of WoR. He feels like he can get to know someone through the way they fight. By training Shallan he is not only relieving his own internal pressure but he also aims to get to know her better and help her get to know him. Re Shallan. From my research, OSDD can easily present at 17yo. Indeed it usually only presents and gets diagnosed in early adulthood (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/916186-overview) . Shallan was dissociating prior to that with black-outs and timelapses. IRL I would have imagined her taken into care then fragmenting earlier as a result but she was sheltered from that and it gave her reason to keep dissociating via time-lapse instead . For DID and related disorders to start it takes a trigger that occurs after a particularly difficult event. Shallan fractures because she can't accept her 4th truth ("I killed my mother") likely because she cannot really accept the full implications of that. Then, only a matter of weeks later Adolin tells her to spar. He unintentionally forced her to use the one thing she was avoiding - the Shardblade - and so she starts fragmenting to cope - she couldn't just black-out to avoid the situation which would be her usual go to method. We know from a WoB that she is one individual so her personas are alts - they can't be anything else if she is one person unless we are suggesting posession? I don't see that as likely - we have no evidence to suggest that but we know Shallan based Veil on herself. I am unclear why keeping Veil separate would be "healthy" - from my understanding of the therapy for DID/OSDD etc it is vital for the person to (eventually) realise that they are 1 person, not multiple people. Sometimes people can live as one of their alts permanently but apparently spontaneous reintegration can happen and that it is unpredictable and very painful. Therapy is designed round the person to give them new coping strategies, to reduce their anxiety and then to identify the traumas that underpin the condition and face them as a whole rather than separate themselves off from it. An explanation would be helpful Yikes, art therapy sounds scary! I can't draw either (and despite not wanting to annoy you, don't consider myself terribly creative either!) I can't imagine being able to draw something then hand it over to someone - I'd feel so judged! Also, I trend towards analytical. I think I am ENTP personality type. Probably why I get a bit argumentative here (sorry btw). Out of interest, is that how you would describe everyone's minds? I mean, presumably with different colours/music etc but otherwise alike? I tend to think of myself as thinking in diagrams with long-hand annotations. A bit like Shallan's drawings but much more 2D/icon like than proper images. If I write or think a sentence I visualise the words as they are written down. If I have to think about more abstract things the diagrams get smaller and the notations get longer but thats about it. Despite enjoying music a great deal, I don't "think" in music at all as far as I can tell. Just wondering about how different visualisations matter (if indeed they do). EDIT - sorry I mean to come back to this and forgot: So I get why you think he is a good example of humanistic principles. The wiki states the following as the 5 core principles: So this is vital when considering Taravangian because his initial goal (when he went to the Nightwatcher) was to save mankind. His goalposts have shifted but those shifts seem to be planned for in some way by "super-smart Taravangian. He also kind of breaks the 3rd rule when he is "smart" because he loses empathy then. I think this is important. I wonder if it is actually his capacity for empathy that will ultimately matter more than his plan? I have long suspected that he thought the intelligence was the only way forward, but I personally think kindness/compassion goes a lot further than brains. Oh i just realised that these 5 principles kind of mimic the 5 ideals.... I'm probably going way too deep now. But the 4th principle here is about responsibility - and at least 2 of the orders require you to accept responsibility as part of your progression. Indeed the lightweavers esentially need you to take conscious responsibility for everything you have done.

Fantastic! I think this could be a very valuable thread so thanks for starting it. So I'm afraid I simply don't know enough to even begin understanding this (sorry). Could you either ELI5 or post some links for some basic research to allow me to understand? Once I've had a read, I'll probably need to ask questions! lol I agree that I think Taravangian is an example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I would argue that Amaram is as well (for the most part). I suggest that Moash is not so like this - he acts for revenge instead. Wow this is fascinating. I love how this actually ties really well with her (likely) diagnosis of OSDD. She is one person, but she identifies as 3. I know that in OSDD you can "divide" your skills between your alts - so a part of Shallan not only views the world completely differently, but she also doesn't identify her art in the same way because of it. I think the thing of needing connection is vital because OSDD is more likely to manifest in people who suffered from disrupted attachment as children. I hadn't realised that there was so much underpinning her use of art. We see some of Navani's drawings - about the airships for example. I know it is much more limited but does the fact that Navani's sketches tend to be more "practical" lead you to particular conclusions? Does Jasnah's initial disdain for the arts suggest anything?

OOh good point. Do we know if he/she/it is back yet? I got the impression that it isn't? Its probably the one where Gavilar got the void spheres right? I've lost track of all the Unmade in my head - this one was the one that was kinda like a windrunner right? Maybe it getting unleashed is the trigger for starting SA4?

You contradict yourself. You literally said that you think he's a wimp. I don't much care if you justify yourself by saying "That's just how I react" - it's not ok. Its a form of prejudice to immediately think someone with depression is weak. Given your family history I would have thought you'd realise how appalling prejudice and hate can be. Next time you post, maybe think about how someone with depression, or who knows someone with depression might feel about what you've said. I was about to comment on the stress-diathesis model, but I see @aemetha has already done so. I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis–stress_model I don't know enough about personality archetypes to comment further, except to say that I was under the impression that psychodynamic models of Jung (and to an extent Freud) are largely replaced by cognitive psychology - as aemetha said. Sounds like Aemetha knows much more about this than I do? Perhaps you could share some information regarding this as I am interested?

I meant during the time-skip specifically - sorry - I'll add that in - my point was that we have an in-world year where from our point of view very little of importance will happen. I don't see us opening up SA4 to a divorce. That could work - I am envisaging a scenario where "perfect wife Shallan" almost avoids conflict in the marriage. Adolin can have a spine (he confronts Dalinar in tWoK after all) but I don't think either of them would even realise this was happening until it starts getting under their skins that they are always capitulating. I thought Shallan might do this because Veil will resent it and that would cause intrasystem conflict. But if Adolin is getting annoyed, it could eventually lead to a serious clash between them. That could work too - I am just worried that having too many level 5s might make the humans a bit OP and that makes it less interesting a read. As long as the level 5s aren't OP it is ok, but given how OP Kaladin and Shallan already are, it is something that worries me. You can only continue to have the other side level up with them before it actually starts becoming a bit ridiculous. As long as there is sufficient struggle in Shallan's arc (I see her as being sort of level 3 and level 4 simultaneously because I don't think she's fully accepted her 4th truth) then it doesn't matter how long it takes.

Ugh. I hate this kind of logic. I may be about to have a rant on this - be warned. Seriously though, how do you benefit from telling other people they are whining and weak? 1 in 3 people will suffer from depression during the course of their lives, and the triggers for that depression are unique to each individual. Did it occur to you that anyone with depression in the death camps likely ended up executed earlier because they weren't coping and simply couldn't follow the orders they were given? Its not like the nazis had any sympathy for mental health issues. They executed people with all kinds of "mental" problems including intellectual disability and being gay because that was seen to be a mental health disorder at the time. Not being able to get out of bed because life just doesn't seem to be worth living would easily have gotten you killed in Birkenau. Obviously the horrors faced by people in the camps were appalling and I can only credit your grandfather and his family for managing through it all. But that doesn't mean everyone who made it out is like that. Plenty of holocaust survivors ended up with depression - are they weak? https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/31810/holocaust-depression-dr-trappler-changes-1-1-06.pdf As I said, different things trigger different people. Some victims of rape get depressed, others don't. That doesn't make rape any less horrific for those who cope with it. And it doesn't make those who do weak. They might manage other scenarios just fine. And what about post-partum depression? Are you saying that those women should just snap out of it? That it is simply because they are weak? Depression doesn't make you weak. It makes you think the worst of yourself. It prevents any good thoughts and feelings getting to you. It isn't something you can just pull yourself out of because it doesn't let you think you can manage it. It tells you you are worthless and that no-one (including yourself) should bother with you.

@Chaos Thank you very much for this and I second your suggestion to keep it civil. I am not sure whether to address the points made before - I don't want to bring the arguments back up. I was thinking that perhaps anyone who wants to comment on this again, use any relevant and safe comments from your last post and start again? That way we can continue the debate without allowing emotions to raise their ugly heads? I do want to point this out in case no-one else has seen it: courtesy of @Dreamstorm So to me this is really important. It means that OSDD is still the best fit for Shallan - and that her choice of Adolin may not be ideal for her at this time. If Adolin stops treating her alts as individuals it could still work, but that seems unlikely to happen if she seems to stabilise in the timeskip. I foresee the following scenario as a possible means to achieve this whilst not losing sight of how OSDD actually works. The "Shallan" persona becomes dominant around Adolin because he anchors it and undermines the other aspects. The others likely appear when he is not around to engage "Shallan". Eg, at night when he is asleep or if he goes away. Shallan believes she is better - maybe not 100% but on the way. She switches persona less and less over time, or only switches by choice. Shallan's situation is (almost) entirely stress free (EDIT: during the timeskip). She is able to fill the "perfect wife" role well and the stresses of it are negligible in comparison with the horrors she has in her past. Perhaps "Shallan" becomes an ANP and has pushed the emotional stuff into a 4th EP. Or perhaps she remains an EP and just continues to suppress her own memories. Adolin/Shallan are happy. There may be minor disagreements but chances are Shallan yields to Adolin on all conflicts. He probably has no problem with this. Its not negative, but that seems to be how Evi would have presented her relationship with Dalinar to her children so Adolin would expect it. Perhaps towards the end of SA4, Shallan has to deal with something that requires a stress test of Shallan's identity. I think she fractures again and loses control. In so doing she realises that she has only papererd over her cracks rather than actually fix the problem. It happens very suddenly and likely mirrors Kaladin's "failure" to say his 4th ideal. She will continue to struggle with this into book 5, but is gradually starting to accept the truth. She'll be forced to confront the truth that her marriage to Adolin is essentially a sham because she hasn't fully embraced it. I suspect Wit will be involved on some level. She will have to work to meld her personalities into 1 identity and thus accept the truth. She will then have a period of getting to know herself again as a single core personality. Once this is complete and she is "standing up" then she can make a real choice regarding her future. Ok so there are loads of options about how it might work - and timing in particular is very fluid I think. I have a suspicion that Shallan won't hit level 5 until book 5 because she still has to accept her 4th truth properly and get to her 5th truth; That's going to take a lot of work. Thoughts?

Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that it could be taken that way - so I'm actually glad you gave me the opportunity to clarify my meaning. I am not inherently against "simplistic" characters either - they serve an important narrative purpose for one thing. I prefer it when there is a hint at least that there is more to the story. I feel Lopen does this admirably - if nothing else we are always reminded about him losing his arm, and that may or may not be important to the overall story, but it gives us a feeling of personal history for him that makes him more believable. So even if we never see it, we know it is there. "Bad" characters get the worst of this because it is easy to focus on their negatives because they are thrown in our faces (so to speak). It is easy to forget that Roshone lost his son and heir, for example, and thus hate him for sending Kal and Tien to the army. I know it is still a horrible thing to do, but people can behave erratically when they are grieving. That doesn't make it ok, but it does mean he perhaps needs more compassion than we otherwise give him. Right I'm going to shh now because I am taking this thread more and more offtopic (sorry)

So I'm sorry if you took this to be my meaning - it wasn't. What I meant is that if you have a complex layered character you will see some aspects you like and aspects you don't. If you dislike more of those aspects you'll end up disliking the character. In a 2D case like Roshone, we all only saw the negative stuff so he is basically universally disliked. With Shallan, because she is complex, each person needs to decide on the basis of multiple pieces of information whether we like her or not. Shallan has a difficult arc and doesn't always behave terribly well. Depending on how much weight you place on different situations will affect how you feel about her. I feel the more complex a character is, the greater the chance of there being disagreements about whether you like them or not.