PhineasGage

That's great. I think I have a much better understanding now. I see why a black hole would be more worth using. What I don't really understand is how a shard might be able to "eat" a black hole? Are you suggesting that they might be able to access it via the spiritual realm? I haven't had a chance to re-watch that video you linked but I watch numberphile fairly regularly so I have probably seen it before. It's late here so I need to rush to bed. Going to poke my SO to read this too because he gets physics in a way I don't and will almost certainly have views. I'll post again in the morning.

Oh, yeah. The absolute highest ideal to aim for when choosing a life partner. It worked out so well for Navani after all....... /s

Yikes you are right. I ad been under the impression that all of them were older when they got married/started families etc. I am surprised that Navani has pushed for this marriage so much actually then, she wasn't that happy with Gavilar from what she's implied so why risk someone else going down that route?

Well in part because I can't actually write for toffee. On the other hand, if we end up going down this route perhaps it should be renamed the Sitcom Archives

Not necessarily. We haven't seen attitudes to contraception in Alethkar, though I agree, even if they are liberal in that regard their ability to access it is likely limited. My guess though is that use of stormlight may affect fertility. That might be an easy way to get out of the baby thing that I agree is otherwise likely. I can't see Sanderson addressing this question in the books though - it just won't come up as a topic of conversation unless it is a point of conflict. For example: Navani: Adolin when are you going to get that wife of yours pregnant? Adolin: I'm trying! She keeps running off and light weaving! Navani: You aren't getting any younger you know.... ---- Adolin: Aunt Navani has been pushing for us to have a baby again. Radiant: Adolin, I cannot possibly consider pregnancy while we have a war going on. Adolin: Well you don't have to fight. You could send Vathah with your men... Veil: If you think I'm going to let them have all the fun.....? Adolin: How is fighting a war more fun than trying to have a baby? Shallan: Do you have any idea what giving birth actually entails? Adolin: Well I was thinking more about the getting pregnant bit actually..... Radiant: (huffs) Sometimes it seems that's all you think about (stalks off) Adolin: (to himself) One of us has to..... ---- As a thirty-something year old person, 17 or 18 is way too young. Storms, I'm too young and I'm twice Shallan's age.

Ok, I am not good at physics so I'm just going to summarise my very limited understanding of what this means to make sure I'm on the same page. Matter, energy and investiture are essentially the same things but humans perceive them differently because we are basically just fat apes. Bit like time/space is one thing but we arbitrarily divide it into 2 because we just aren't that clever. A singularity is a point of infinite density because a given mass is compressed into 0 volume. This creates a curve in space time and this causes the black hole. I believe you are suggesting that pushing more matter/energy/investiture into the singularity you would be able to get a return on that investment because of the way the singularity would cause the three aspects to shift and allow it all to become investiture ready for use. Not quite sure I understand how you would access that invetiture though - please explain for me? I was under the impression that this was "classical theory" and that it doesn't really hold up with quantum physics theory - but as it's quantum I cant even understand the basics so I'm going to ignore it for now. So, I can kind of see how this works, if I understand the theory properly, and I can see that it wouldn't destroy the laws of conservation. This could suggest a sensible mechanism to gain enough power to destroy a shard which I would imagine requires a huge amount of power? I hadn't realised that Investiture was finite. As a point, even without a singularity, presumably with the right settings/equipment, couldn't a planet be destroyed (for example) to release the energy and investiture?

I thought I had made it quite clear that I don't think she should have got married either! I agree it is a possibility, but I sincerely hope Shallan herself realises what a mess it would be. Oh and that wiki is wrong btw. Shallan is younger than Kaladin by about 3 years. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shallan_Davar - Kaladin was born in 1153. The coppermind is a better source than the wikia for future reference I am already planning out some fanfics to be there if I need them

Of course. Because Batman. And as we all know, the Polite Lady's Handbook to Courtship and Family says you cannot possibly marry a man if he can't fly. I think Shallan is 17 or 18 at present? And I don't buy the "Oh is she were on earth she'd be [insert age here after some complicated maths] so its ok. She's a teenager where she is! She hasn't even finished growing! Don't be silly, Adolin would be a wonderful father to go along with everything else that just works out for him. Yikes, I just scared myself with this idea.... Can I pretend this conversation never happened please?

I wondered this myself. Clearly spren bonding is part of the normal lifecycle in Rosharan fauna - at least some of them. I have thought that the chasmfiends pupate in order to let them attract spren to help them grow bigger (ie the "luckspren") If it were a RL situation, there would definitely be something available - life doesn't just let a resource like stormlight go past it whtout making an effort to use and store it. Energy of any form is too valuable a commodity. I'm using the example of various bacteria and archea that live round undersea volcanic vents. I mean some of those basically eat sulfur. Life finds a way to get energy whenever it can. Given that Roshar is based on the idea of a world that is like an underwater world and those black smoker bacteria are pretty well know, it wouldn't be such a stretch to think Brandon would use something like this. I would say that the ecology would also use Stormlight in some way, so unlike the gradual accummulation in creatures as we go up the food chain, it would get used - at least a bit, at each level. It would simply be another useful commodity that, like energy in the form of calories, goes up the food chain. Like you mentioned, having a store might help with weight management and flight in some animals. I was also thinking that spren like stormlight. Even chulls have gemhearts which to me suggests that everything at least tries to bind a spren so perhaps they use stormlight to attract them? This is also a bit rambly, sorry - hope you sleep better tonight!

I feel I have missed something pretty major here regarding Renarin and I'd really like some enlightenment. So I get that "The Page" links us to voidbinding but I still don't quite see how this means that Renarin is voidbinding? Basically, from what I have understood, Glys was a normal spren that could have bonded a human and made them a standard Truthwatcher. He got corrupted (either accident or intent) by Sja-Anat then bonded Renarin resulting in Renarin having unusual abilities like being able to see the future. That being said, I am not sure how this leads us to assume that he is "voidbinding" in any way - I mean presumably the Parshendi/Listeners/Regals/Fused don't only bond with spren corrupted by Sja-Anat? Wouldn't that have been a problem when the first desolation started - there wouldn't have been many of those corrupted spren to bond with? I was under the impression that "voidspren" are different to what Glys has become, and those can bond with the Parshendi group. Those "are of Odium" as Syl would put it, but clearly Glys isn't. It is unclear if that is a product of Sja-Anat wanting to abandon Odium's cause or not. I thought that Renarin is unique, not because he is a human voidbinder - indeed the history we now know suggests that was the norm for humans when they arrived on Roshar, but that he is possibly the first to bond a corrupted spren - Sja Anat used to only corrupt "lesser" spren according to the Mythica iirc. I can see that this corruption would alter both surges in unpredictable ways and result in things that are related to Odium (like future-sight) but I cannot see how this is definitely voidbinding. I also thought that in general Renarin's use of both his surges (we see him use illumination when he heal's Adolin's hand early in OB) seems pretty close to how they were predicted to be. This might also explain why he is invisible to Odium because he is a completely new thing. Ok, that ended up a bit more like a theory than I was intending - I really just want to understand why it seems that people have accepted the idea that he is half and half. Links to other thread with details are very welcome.

Given that the picture of Vev from the endplates of OB show her surrounded by Lifespren, it seems that they likely are the "lesser spren" associated with Edgedancers. Also Lift is followed by some in Edgedancer. I was wondering where we got the idea that lightspren bond willshapers? I got the impression that the reachers were the ones that bonded them given the interest in travel? I'm not saying I'm right, simply my own impression. Info would be appreciated.

I am in the process of doing a compare and contrast for OB to go with my compare contrast for WoR (Shadolin vs Shalladin). It is still in very early stages and will likely take quite a long while to complete as I will be using in book evidence which needs quoting etc. I'll see about putting it up on a blog or something when its done then I'll link it here for people to read. Be warned, my WoR essay (which is complete but technically needs proofing) is 58 pages long.... I have issues. I wouldn't want it to be sent to Brandon though as I don't think it is fair to put that kind of thing on an author. I would just be doing it for my own benefit and the enjoyment of anyone who wanted to read it. I also personally wouldn't want to go through the thread and summarise people's thoughts without a) their permission and b ) their willingness to correct my work. I'd rather write it myself then alter it as comments came in to reflect/add additional thoughts and opinions. Also, just saw that @DimChatz has also raised some additonal valid points to this. Ok, so I'm arguing against my own interest a little here, but Shallan actually tolerates Adolin's wandering eyes quite well, although I think a bit of jealousy at the beginning is normal. Adolin is the one who gets jealous but perhaps this is as much a reflection of their characters rather than the relationship. I think its ok to get a bit jealous as long as you air out your concerns and work through it rather than letting it fester. I am less concerned about this aspect of their relationship than the fact that they are still so obviously honeymooning. I do agree it is otherwise very adolescent. Argh no, we're back to the pregnancy thing. If Shallan has a baby I'm probably quitting. I am not getting on board with teenaged motherhood and the idea that motherhood will "fix" her. If anything, pregnancy, and particular the post-partum period are the worst things to go through when you have a mental health disorder..... Plus seriously, Adolin and Shallan's kids would have the wierdest hair. Yes I agree this is the key thing for all of our Radiants but particularly Shallan going forward. I am unsure if BS wants us to think she has taken that route with Adolin or simply that she has taken it by not really confronting her dissociation. I think your dreams are wonderful ideas for new theory threads! I mean obviously Axies is wanting to lead Shallan astray. Why wouldn't he? Great point. This is where the aspect of perception being really important. There are no "truths" in the cognitive realm, just perceptions according to Shallan. The spiritual realm is allegedly the realm of pure truth. Yes I agree, it is a way of making us (well some of us) invest in him as this great guy with great hair, a great smile, a great marriage, a great family....blah blah blah, then crush our souls and make us weep. If his luck does last it will be the most boring arc of any arc ever arced in the history of arcs. His name literally means "born unto Light". He basically is like cosmere Superman. Without the flying. Speaking of which, Superman is seriously boring. I mean the guy doesn't have an interesting bone in his body. Would be hilarious though... right? Only if it was because when he gets his edgedancer powers he can't control them properly and literally cannot hold on to women because his hands are too slick. Note I said when, not if. This is Adolin after all. Have we got it wrong this whole time and it is actually his story?? Kinda changes the outlook a bit....

First, we don't know that Sja-Anat is definitely trying to betray Odium - as SLNC mentions above. It might also be a trap. Secondly, the manipulation of the oathgate had never been attempted before so the outcomes were unpredictable. Thirdly, Odium seems to think Shallan is an Elsecaller so even if he doesn't know about Sja-Anat, he may think that she could transport herself physically into Shadesmar. It is unclear when Odium starts believeing she is an Elsecaller.

On top of what @SLNC said, Odium's end goal is not to kill Shallan. She's a minor player from his perspective. His end goal is to end his imprisonment in the Rosharan system and kill Cultivation before moving on to his next shardic victim. If Odium was just all about killing he wouldn't bother working with the Fused or Taravangian. He is much more dangerous than that.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Shallan has spent her whole life expecting and preparing for an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages are not inherently bad. Plenty are very successful. I have friends who are in arranged marriages and they are happy with their respective spouses and its all worked out ok. Shallan was probably more worried that she might never marry because who would help her find a husband in a world where political arranged marriages are the norm for her class? I wasn't surprised at all she reacted like she did. She had just had a horrible experience with Kabsal and has no issue with the idea of getting married in principle. She also hasn't been free long enough to consider that she had a choice in this really. I do think that she anticipated that once a betrothal was in place, even a causal, that she was essentially tied to Adolin regardless of her feelings about him. Yes, but it's ok, we won't tell anyone. We are, but perhaps we could say we are simply using Jasnah's "assuredness movement" (see beginning WoR). It is a way of venting then we can be more rational later. Maybe. IKR! *grumbles about how boy-band members and athletes get away with everything......* Hello @insert_anagram_here and welcome! I agree with many of your points, but interestingly have ended up at some places opposite to yours even using the same logic (usually as a result of my 'rod-through-the-frontal-lobe logic) Depending on the situation, both Sterling and Vadam could potentially be both Adolin and Kaladin. BS is trolling us . I suspect he is secretly watching this thread and cackling with glee. I agree with you wholeheartedly here - both for the book and for real life. That said, neither Kaladin nor Shallan need to stay broken. The premise of the nahel bond filling the cracks is that it can buttress the soul. We have 7 more books to go, and frankly, I'm going to ship them to the end and write fanfiction if I must. This, more than anything makes me wonder if BS is going to fix things. Not necessarily go down the Shalladin route. but perhaps forge some really good moments of real connection for Adolin and Shallan. I know we've just had a bit of an Adolin bashing sesh, but most of us don't actually want to watch him suffer in an unloving relationship (much). If BS could do it for Shalladin, why not Shadolin? If he does that, then alot of the issues in this thread magically disappear. True - but that does technically apply to both sides of the Shadolin vs Shalladin 'war'. I will personally be disappointed if we dont end up with Shalladin (based on current information). But there are Shadolin shippers who will equally disappointed if Shadolin doesn't work out. It is easy to think "well they are married now, it must be the end of all Shallan ships" but that isn't necessarily true, and if we don't get more development in Shadolin, people are going to stop reading them. Not even the most die-hard Shadolin fan could keep up with the mushy nauseating stuff they've been reading for the past 2 books for another seven....Surely???

As I said, I just wondered if there was a link - then because I am the sort of person who can't stop talking, the post just kept going! That said, sausages have loads of non-animal material in them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage#Ingredients Maybe Brandon was specifically thinking of pork and apple sausages?

I'm not necessarily saying he can't do it. But we haven't seen him do it, and we have seen him travel a long way to talk to someone (Jasnah). If he can just talk to people remotely, why doesn't he do so? BS usually hides things in plain site rather than make them so obvious - I would have expected to see a manifestation of this skill, of Hoid's before if he had it. I also want to point out that he says specifically that he isn't in Kholinar to help Shallan - I know he does help her, when they meet in person but how does he know she needs help right then? Part of his thing is going where he is needed but that he doesn't always know how it works - he is still in Kholinar at the end of the book looking for the Cryptic so he wasn't there for Shallan or the others. Even with a connection, he'd have to have been really lucky to catch her at the right moment during her altercation with Ashertman because it happens really quickly. On top of that, I don;t think he manipulates her lightweaving via connection. Illumination is the surge closest to the Yolen original of lightweaving according to the Ars Arcanum. Wit can lightweave because he is from Yolen. He intermingles his own magic with hers to alter it, not alter it via a direct connection with hers. That's why when they do the "Girl who stood up" chapter together he asks her for help - he has limited ability on Roshar because "the shards here are very strict". He has. Twice. She directly interfaces with two of his Unmade. On top of that she grew up in a household basically controlled by Odium via her father. Interestingly, we end up at the same conclusion coming from different directions. I think it could be Wit, but struggle to see how he could manage it. On the other hand I am not certain that it has to be Odium but can see how he could manage it. We know Shards can do this kind of remote talking but I have not seen one human do it to another. Wit is powerful, but he is still human. That example is useful thankyou but it doesn't actually fit with the idea of true telepathy. There is no indication that Drehy is communicating with Shallan or he would have asked her about where they were and if Kaladin was still alive. All spheres in the cognitive realm give a shape/idea of what they are. People are just clearer than eg a stick. That said, I very much agree that it would have very interesting spying implications - I would be surprised if this doesn't become a thing in following books. It is concerning that it could be so easy to read surface thoughts. They can do more things than a normal person can though. Also, I would be very surprised if Odium doesn't check Taravangian's info - if only to check to see how honest Mr T is being with him, unless he can "detect truth" or something (seems unlikely given his Intent). The Shards are limited by the Intent of the shard they possess. Rayse seems more able than most (he has killed and splintered several Shards already) because it seems his personality and Intent do not conflict. On top of that hatred is a very .... loose concept. Anything can be hated. Indeed that is more or less the point Wit makes in the epilogue. Odium's Intent may not grant fantastic foresight or increased investiture in people of his realms, but he is freer for it. Warbreaker and Mistborn spoliers below: Honour couldn't break oaths. The only thing Odium cannot do is love. Everything else seems to come from Rayse being a bad bad boy. Was she close by though? What distance are we talking? Did she have to be holding him? When could she start hearing him? Had she touched him before the link between them was made? I'd like to know so we can really get all the information regarding mind to mind communication in the cosmere. Brandon doesn't make and break rules at random. I think the point here is that physical distance seems to only be negated by connections via the cognitive or spiritual realms. It doesn't just happen. What evidence do we have for such a connection between Wit and Shallan? We need less evidence of a connection between Odium and Shallan because she was touching the Unmade at the time she heard the voice.

@Dreamstorm and @Starla I do see where you are both coming from, and I agree that in comparison with the previous 2 books (WoR in particular for me) Shallan certainly had her very weak moments. I don't mean that the writing was weak per se, more that she struggled so much more with things we have previously seen her cope with. The idea that she played "the damsel in distress" is very poignant though and, I think, accurate. The problem for Shallan is that I think she believes that Adolin wants the "damsel in distress" persona so she starts playing it up a bit. I don't necessarily think that's true - but after he promised in WoR that he "would protect her" etc - which she completely rejects at the time - it would not be such a leap for her to think that is actually what he wants in a woman. We've talked previously about her making the "perfect wife Shallan" and I think this may be part of it. I do want to comment on how Shallan in this book is a bit like Kaladin in WoR. Kaladin in WoR annoyed quite a number of of readers from what I remember because he was still so mopey. He really struggled to come to terms with his burgeoning identity (sound familiar?) as a Knight Radiant and with the inherent conflict within him of vengeance vs righteousness. Again, does this sound familiar? Shallan faces serious internal conflict thoughout OB as a result of trying to reconcile what she thinks she wants vs what she knows she should be. Her struggle manifests very differently of course, and she ends the book with a resolution that seems much more rushed than Kaladin's agonised change of heart regarding Elhokar. The problem is that it is unclear to us as readers whether she has made the "right" decision like Kaladin did, or whether she is still acting a bit like he did before he had his change of heart, where he was trying to fool himself. Kaladin had clearly made a choice and it was obvious to readers that his choice was right for him. Now I'm not suggesting that he should have let Elhokar die, but I think that if Kaladin had genuinely thought it was necessary, he'd have killed the man himself rather than hide away and pretend it wasn't happening. So this is interesting because we have no definite way of knowing. There are definite parallels here between these two arcs, but it is unclear if Shallan is following Kaladin's path of choosing the "right" path for her, or whether she is mirroring him and actually is still in the equivalent of his "Elhokar needs to die" phase. Given the alacrity with how the book ended, I think it is supposed to be ambiguous. On a side note, even if she has made the right choice and Adolin does help her, it doesnt mean that she is diminished for needing help. We all need help sometimes and this is a situation when anyone would need the help of as many people around them as possible I think. And people wonder why we find Adolin annoying?

Careful - she still might.....

Ok, so there is one thing I was thinking about this that I don't think anyone has mentioned that may be relevant. Water from storms makes food grow better - I believe Kaladin thinks this in tWoK but I can't find the reference - he says something about finding it odd that scholars were excited about something that farmers had known for centuries iirc. I may be misreme,bering tho so if anyone can check for me I'd be grateful. This does not seem to be to do with the crem from what I understand but more that the water is in some way providing stormlight/investiture to the crops. It would be interesting to know if Lift gets more stormlight from crops grown that way than from food grown with other water sources. So, we know Lift can access stormlight from food, and from WoB we know she metabolises it into stormlight. I agree with @aemetha that in order for the metabolism aspect alone, Lift must be able to store it in some form. The reason I am linking it with the crops is that it implies that stormlight/investiture can be stored if the situation is right. Cultivation herself seems to be the key here because she would obviously be linked to crop growing and now she has made Lift able to do something similar. When plants grow and fruit, they are setting aside some of their energy for the purposes of reproduction, not because they necessarily have to be eaten (although some do propgate that way). Plants irl use sunlight to convert water and carbon dioxide into sugars and oxygen. They then convert many (but not all) of those sugars into carbohydrates. What if, stormlight is essentially bound within the complex chains of carbs like fibre and starch (the plant analogue to human fat) then is released when that polysaccharide is broken down. Plants might benefit from this by giving seeds additional energy to grow after the fruit/seeds are planted, most people wouldn't be able to access the stormlight because they would have no means of holding on to it, but Lift is just a little bit like a plant, and can convert at least some of the stormlight she consumes into fat for later storage? It doesn't work both ways though because when a person converts fat into a useable form of energy it doesn't get put back because we convert on an as and when basis. Lift clearly "summons" her awesomeness so perhaps she currently always gets it all at once rather than allowing conservation. As she progresses she may get better at drawing her stormlight slower/ on an more as needed basis and then she would waste less by leaking. Thoughts?

Not sure what other's think but to me the spy is definitely Shallan. She has a dissociative condition resulting in multiple identities (a result of childhood abuse most likely) and is training in espionage during the first part of the book - can't rmember the woman's name off the top of my head but it is definitely mentioned that she is learning to spy. She uses illusions to hide her face and infiltrate both the Ghostbloods and the Cult of the Spren in Kholinar. On top of that "seeking completion" suggests she is looking for a way to put her split personalities back into one.

I always assumed it was essentially aluminium foil like we use for cooking. I mean, that can be torn and shaped by hand. On that note, my cat loves chasing after balled-up aluminium foil so I'm waiting for something like that to show up in the cosmere.

I didn't know this - thanks. It suggests that he is actually all aspects of hatred - if you can think of a way to hate or inspire hate, Odium can do it. It also therefore includes self-hatred. Hate can be an attractive force, but I think Odium also likely includes loathing.

Fair enough! As I said, it was a personal opinion. Either way, I think their interactions will be enjoyable to read so I don't mind either way. I think many people here agree it could work in the future but its too soon at the moment. I did enjoy the argument you wrote between them though

If Odium represents hate, presumably he could be both "hot hate " and "cold hate" - I mean, why not? The Intent of a Shard is generally all encompassing within it's purview so it seems that he could therefore use both sides of the hateful coin. Cultivation has the Intent to grow things - she even specifically mentions that this includes the thorns - even though this might result in a situation that actually leads to her death/destruction. She cannot go against the nature. BUT if Odium hates (referring to the chapter title The One Who Hates - in WoR) he could manipulate the situation so that he feels cold hatred sometimes and passionate hatred others. It would allow him to imply he is the god of Passion, as he attempts to do with Dalinar, but really it is only a mask - underneath it is hatred. I guess he was likely trying to undermine Dalinar's confidence that Odium is actually the enemy but underestimated Dalinar's ability to cope with looking at the "real" Odium (I mean Dalinar did go on to ascend) .