PhineasGage

I agree - can you see them having a prolonged and indepth conversation abut the symbiosis of cremlings and Shalebark? To be fair, I can't see Kaladin and Shallan having that one either, but we have seen him ask himself detailed questions about the world (look at the way he stays with the Parshmen in OB so he can understand them) and I am reasonably sure he asks natural history type questions in tWoK and WoR though I can't bring any to mind at this point. I do think he is more interested in people than natural history though - which makes sense given that he is esentially an embodiment of the windrunner traits of protection and leadership. I completely see your point and am more than willing to agree I am wrong on this one, I just always feel that there is a possibility that even the Shallan we see in tWoK and WoR is a fragment of a whole but is more whole than she is once she conceptualises Veil and Radiant as separate to herself. Essentially, I basically agree that she was whole before OB but I always like to hedge my bets. This is such a good synopsis of what is going on! The bit i've emphasised is exactly what I am worried about, but put in a much more coherent way than I ever could. I guess it would take a wordsmith to manage it Hey, we are only half way though this arc and only a third of the way through the series as a whole. There is plenty of time for a Shalladin "endgame". Remember journey before desitination

Morning all. EVeryone feeling good about being in the most active, ambitious and wonderful thread on the forums? I hope so So I agree that the "triangle" is finished given that there is a year time-gap planned between end of OB and beginning of book 4. That being said, I think there are a reasonable reasons for thinking that the marriage between Adolin and Shallan is going to be less than happy. I mean for one thing, it is massively rushed. A second thing is that Adolin is treating Veil as a drinking buddy. I don't know about you but when I've been out with my SO, he isn't suddenly my drinking buddy, he remains my SO even if we are playing drinking games. My relationship with him doesn't shift according to what I am doing or the mood I am in - it has shifted over time according to our level of attachment, but not on a moment by moment basis. I do agree that Kaladin has dodged a bullet for now. Unfortunately Adolin is about to take it instead. And I'm not sure if he'll survive the encounter. Note, even if he becomes an Edgedancer proper, we haven't seen a Radiant die yet. That is worrying on all sorts of levels. @Greywatch I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it. Actually I agree with you completely here. Not sure how I made myself unclear and I apologise for doing so. Dissociation, almost by definition, is a coping mechanism. Various forms of it are normal as long as they don't become prolonged or occur too frequently. Some occur as part of other neurological phenomena such as migraines or epilepsy. Other occur after trauma (flashbacks in PTSD are a form of dissociation for example). She isn't ready to let go of them, but then, people with DID aren't either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be helped to try - continuing down this route could very well leave her in a completely dysfunctional state. Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here. I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing. Quick point, but generally progression into DID or OSDD is actually quite quick IRL. It is often the result of a specific traumatic trigger. There usually have been some dissociating behaviours present prior to division of the core personality. Shallan fits this pattern (Pattern?) as she has blackouts and periods of depersonalisation (going "cold") before we see full personality dissociation in OB. I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. The more I have read about DID and OSDD the more I realised that she has some very "textbook" elements to her situation. 'Dating' - you are absolutely right. But they aren't dating. They are married. Now obviously there are some personal takes on this and anyway we are modern RL people and the characters are Medieval-esque and fictional so their social norms and mores are going to be radically different. On top of that both would have grown up expecting an arranged marriage which does not seem to be the norm for people in this thread (if there is anyone here with either the experience of an arranged marriage or the expectation of one I;d love to get their insight). I guess my problem is that their relationship is still so ..... young and immature - I don't mean the characters (although that is also true imo) but that they are still trying to understand some basic core ideas of each other's personalities. Everyone has to start at that point, but most of us aren't getting married while still in that stage. Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. I don't agree that Adolin's version isn't idealised, but then I suppose that's obvious I feel that Adolin has a clear image of Shallan in his head but that it is the one Shallan put there. Shallan herself in WoR says that her relationship with Adolin is like the one she has with Mraize and that she has to go beyond expectations etc. Adolin may have got a perfectly good idea of what that Shallan looks like, but it doesn't mean he's got her as a whole. I see very little evidence that she has changed her modus operandi when it comes to interacting with Adolin. She still presents the "innocent lively Shallan. Quick with a quip. even when nobody wants to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes overeager." (Chapter 29 OB) to him through most of OB. Even when he sees Veil, he not only separates her from "the real" Shallan, but she strongly feels that the real one is the one I just described. On another note, not sure how much Shallan idealises Kaladin. I mean, he glows and flies... difficult not to I suppose, but I don't remember a specific moment when she clearly thinks about him in a way that doesn't essentially line up with who he is as a person - I'm happy to be corrected. Kaladin though does idealise Shallan a bit though as he tends to see her "light" (like he did with Tien) rather than the darkness behind it. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Shallan doesn't idealise Adolin either - at least I think her own estimations of him line up with mine. Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. I think Adolin's full arc isn't done. We dont have space for everything in one book, and there need to be things that tie the books together. So far, each of our main Mains (Shllan, Dalinar, Kaladin) have taken up a huge amount of page time in each book. Adolin is a major side character, so his arc, by necessessity needs to cross several books. We will not likely see him achieve the same levels as Shallan, Dalinar or Kaladin, in terms of Radianthood (if he gets there) but his arc will continue and be directly linked to the progression he has had as a character from tWoK through all the books. Yes, me too - his is one of the threads that seems the most likely to be picked up going forward and this means we can theorycraft with it as a baseline. I agree with basically eveything in this statement and want to highlight it again for anyone who missed it. *shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind Storms, Shallan as a mother? Hasn't Gavinor suffered enough??! I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended. This has been confirmed by WoB: TGANCHERO How many oaths can a Radiant swear? BRANDON SANDERSON There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. see http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=shallan+threshold I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal. I think is clear you and I are on the same page regarding this so other than to suggest others read your post I won't go into massive detail extolling it's virtues That said, I just want to clarify your last point. Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand". I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one. I don't know, I just love the way they hate each other. Its so entertaining. Anyone else like the scene where they fight before he lets her in to see Dalinar for the first time? Kaladin is one of the few people she's met that she hasn't been able to instantly charm. She also touches him for a very long time in that segment given that they are essentially strangers, of vastly different social backgrounds, having a fight , and surrounded by people. I know she is touchy-feely as a person, but during a fairly venomous argument? I am not sure I buy it

He specifically offers it truths which is a strong indication of his plans to bond it. "I know some juicy ones" is the line he uses to entice it.

No, but given that Nightblood believes (and it is somewhat backed up by the Nightwatcher when she speaks to Dalinar) that he is more powerful than shardblades or honourblades. I would suggest that he is capable of destroying them outright because I think he can break the bonds between them. I think Nightblood and the blade that Moash uses to kill Jezrien may be similar although created in very different ways. Quick question, I always thought of Nightblood as a "he" but I think Lift calls it a "she" - does anyone have access to Warbreaker to check on the pronoun? I know it doesn't really matter but I'd like to use the pronoun that Nightblood uses to think of themselves.

The cloak around the arm can be awakened to form a shield/vambrace - pretty sure we see Vasher do the same thing in Warbreaker but I don't have the book on me atm. It is implied that she is carrying a great deal of breath, given the way her scars fade and that she is able to awaken multiple golems on the ship. On top of that, she may need breath to use her sword in the same way as Nightblood, it is only that her blade is less powerful, has a less crazy command word or perhaps doesn't require the same level of breath anyway because it doesn't have the same level of awareness. I got the impression that her blade is somewhat selfaware - perhaps like a pet dog rather than a human because "she" investigates the honourspren that holds her. The sword also clearly isn't as dangerous as Nightblood because Vivenna uses it a lot.

Excellent! Make it your profile pic I'd love to help but honestly I can;t even draw a stick, let alone stick men. So I agree with you that Adolin is hopeless with women, but I honestly don't blame him for going along with Shallan. I think he has been ensnared by the idea of marriage and love and all that malarky, and he found a woman that seemed to really fit. Now regardless of how people feel about Shallan's choice, she has spent a great deal of time around Adolin trying to be the perfect woman for him. It is one of the reasons she wants to hide Veil from him - she wants to keep up the illusion that she is only the "perfect Shallan". Adolin is essentially in love with the idea of being in love - he may also love Shallan, but he has been looking to get a stable relationship for a while - it was why he agreed to the causal in the first place - he admits as much to Kaladin. I think he likes the idea of settling down. Being married will allow him to continue doing the things he likes - duelling, wine, fashion, without the requirement to find a woman to marry. It is hardly surprising he gets caught up in the moment because he genuinely likes (I am unclear that it is definitely love - I personally thinks it is too soon) Shallan - and she is being particularly pushy at that moment. He hears what he wants to hear - ie the praise for Adolin and misses the implication that there was no denunciation of Kaladin. She has the momentum and he is happy to be pushed along with it - he is used to having someone else being the driving force in his life - previously it was Dalinar, now it is Shallan.

I think it needs to be stated that the depictions of the Heralds in Urithiru cannot be known to be accurate by those who have only just arrived there. Here are some reasons why: 1) It will be difficult to date the images - so you cannot assume they were made prior to Aharietiam (or shortly after) when people's living memory was still in play. Even if they were made by people who had seen the heralds, how would Jasnah know? 2) The pictures will be somewhat (or possibly, very) idealised because, let's not forget, these are divine beings to the people who created the images. On top of that, pictures/paintings tend to be idealised - look at portraits painted over the years of many powerful people - it is a well known phenomenon that artists tended to make the picture more flattering. So even if they were done in person, they may still not be completely accurate - especially as we don't know how much they have changed as they are "getting worse". 3) Jasnah has no personal frame of reference to check the images against. So even if they are accurate, again, how would she know? In order to be sure, she would ideally have access to someone who had seen one or more of the Heralds in person and knew what they were looking at so they could identify them. This likely rules out Shallan because although she had seen Taln, she didn't believe he was a Herald when he saw him, she also has not seen Shalash and recognised her for a Herald. There is, to my mind, only Hoid fits these requirements for Jasnah to be sure that her pictures were accurate enough to definitively identify 2 Heralds - which we know they did because they've been identified and Shalash believes the pictures have come from someone she knows.

Firstly this epigraph Chapter 55 "A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal." which I believe led to this exhange: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1034#26 CHRIS KING (MIYABI) Is Shalash the daughter of Jezrien? BRANDON SANDERSON Umm... Oh, yes, she is his daughter.

Good job on citing that to clear things up

@Ramandi Ok so this is because they want the stormlight to make sure they can work the oathgate - they don't know what they are going to face and whether they will need to fight or how long it might take to get back to the physical realm. On top of that, even if they get through, Kaladin thinks he is going to have to save Dalinar in the near future - which he'll need stormlight for. They have relatively little on them because it doesn't last as long on Shadesmar side as in the physical realm. Beyond that, they likely don't exactly know how long it will take them to get there on either foot or by flying. Bear in mind that Shallan is going to slow them down walking which neither Adolin nor Kaladin probably took into account. Also, 'narrativium' :).

Put it on its side and it will look a bit like the double eye/hourglass thing for the knights radiant. She was technically only right that he could grow into a better man - that was what Cultivation could see, and even she was worried that she was allowing Dalinar to truly become Odium's. I think BS wants to make it clear that there is no set destiny for people on Roshar - the books make it clear that people have free will and can choose to act (or not). Dalinar had chosen to act in ways that allowed him to always access the Thrill. Evi believed he didn't need it, and she was right because no-one on Roshar needs it. It is similar to the way Teft becomes addicted to firemoss - not identical mind you because firemoss likely has true physical dependency element, but Dalinar was, essentially addicted to the Thrill. Despite everything, Dalinar continued to make bad choice after bad choice and feed the Thrill, rather than choose not to. I believe that all the characters - even Sadeas, Amaram, and Moash had it in them to be better men - but they chose not to be. Each book has had a theme running through it. Oathbringer's was definitely one of choice and choosing to take responsibility. It is a theme that has been covered in both previous books too but it was hammered home hard in OB.

So I get where you are going with this one, and I don't want to shut it down completely because I can see the links you are drawing. That being said, I feel there maybe needs to be a bit more depth from the information we have in the books. For example, what Intent might another shard have that relates to what we know of the world? We know Honor and Cultivation are worshipped as deities in different parts of Roshar. The only other religions i can immediately think of are the long path of the Iriali (seems to relate more to Adonalsium imo) and the Passions of the Thaylen (which definitely relate to Odium), and the purelakers. Can you tie a third shard to a specific religion or ethos on Roshar? Do we have any indication of a third perpendicularity on Roshar? I don't remember one being mentioned either by worldhoppers in shadesmar, or in Arcanum Unbound. Ok, I don't expect you to answer all these but any more canon detail would be very useful.

You said chapter 122? Sorry I'm confused...

Wait... Stormlight plus maths? I'm in!

Wooo! The best kind Its ok, I'm not here for the upvotes (tho I'll take any people give me obviously) I'm here for the craft. Anyway, glad to make your day better - to be fair, I probably wouldn't have gone there if you hadn't started me off so I suppose I should consider you my muse! I was thinking more about this idea of Evi/Dalinar being a better model going forward (I'm going to call this the @DimChatz theory for the time being until DimChatz gets round to naming it for themselves I had a quick look at the word "momentum" which is a word heavily associated with Dalinar throughout OB but also is implied (if not directly used) about him in WoR and tWoK. Now there are loads of uses of it being linked with Dalinar, but it used a coupke of times for other people. For Szeth and Kaladin, momentum is used twice each. For Szeth, both times the word is used to describe someone else. For Kaladin, once he turns a boulder's momentum around, and another he loses his own. Unlike Dalinar, we do not see either of these characters continue along a path because of their momentum. However, Shallan has "momentum" when she is searching for Adolin at the end to tell him she chooses him. She specifically thinks "momentum could be a powerful thing", Now I know I'm grasping but I love looking for these kinds of patterns and this is one that was easy to do quickly - I have work I should be doing. My point here is that Dalinar thought (and a certain extent still thinks) that momentum is a virtue in its own right - that having it meant that you had the right to continue as long as no-one could stop you. Shallan thinks this too at the end. I don't know how much this has to do with the presence of Nergaoul - and the after effects of being near him. Szeth and Kaladin in contrast, use momentum as a tool, briefly, and often apply it to others rather than themselves. I think this is important somewhere. Given how often Kaladin flies/falls and therefore must have speed and direction (ie momentum) why is it not used to apply to him? Given how carefully BS chose his words for Mistborn, I would not be surprised if he is hinting here. It doesn't automatically support the theory - or indeed support any conclusions regarding how Shallan's momentum at that point might carry her going forward, but I still thought it was interesting.

To be fair, he does hover a lot. Its kinda his thing right? So I don't personally think Navani was hovering - I mean, Gavilar had been dead 6 years and it seems pretty clear that she hadn't made any significant moves on Dalinar before tWoK. She may have hinted, but Dalinar doesn't seem to really think she is interested until she "practically seduces" him. I understand people wanting Kaladin to be free of Shallan given that she is a total mess at the moment. But, personally, I really liked her in WoR. I think she not only has an interesting arc, but that she is genuinely likeable when she isn't playing a part. I can relate to her being torn between the different choices life is offering her. I like how she makes mistakes and tries to learn from. I also like that she is interested in learning. I must admit I liked her less in OB except when she is Veil - the character that, to me, aside from the bookishness, is the most like the Shallan we see in WoR. I feel that once she starts acknowledging and understanding her situation and starts healing, she'll be in a much better place for a romantic relationship - whoever it is with. Now, though? Well she's a "nightmare dressed like a daydream" (because apparently I am wiling to admit my dirty dirty secret of really liking that Taylor Swift song...) So I agree with @SLNC's point about him thinking he's helping but I wanted to add to it. I think that Adolin believes that the Shallan he recognises is the "real Shallan" and that the others (ie Radiant and Veil) are mere illusions and that they are simply products of Shallan's imagination. Now there is some degree to which that is true because she has come up with a backstory to Veil, but she also acknowledges that Veil is simply a version of Shallan herself. Adolin doesn't want her "stuck" as she is, he wants her to be the person he sees within her - ie the mask she wears much of the time he is around her. Evi is convinced that Dalinar is better than he appears. He isn't. Dalinar in his flashbacks is a monster - you can't even say it was because of the Thrill because he himself says that he has to take responsibility because he chose to embrace it. Shallan is not the person Adolin sees. She is much worse than he currently knows. Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child. The reflections are worth considering.

Rule One - PhineasGage is always right. Rule Two - If PhineasGage is wrong, see Rule One. My biggest problem at the moment is that I want to do a thorough note taking read of OB that will allow me to look for patterns that relate to several ideas - Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin and their progression, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin as a mirror to Gavilar/Dalinar/Navani, Adolin and Mayalaran, the ideals of the windrunners (4th and 5th if possible), Hints about the Unmade, and now Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan as a mirror to Evi/Dalinar/Navani. If I disappear for a while it's because I have accidentally buried myself in notepaper and I can't find my computer. I suspect I'd be an Elsecaller if I were a KR - I just want all the answers.

@DimChatz my mind is *blown* away by this. I love this theory. We'll have to go back and look for important moments from Evi/Dalinar interactions to see what predictions we can make. It also has the element of the arranged marriage, although they had a much longer engagement than Adolin and Shallan. On top of that, Adolin is going to have to get used a new role - a bit like Evi did. He will not only be married to an exceedingly important KR (I mean, she is the only LW we know for one thing) but he'll also be a Highprince in a world where he actually has no lands or power. Adolin is bound to feel like he is in a very foreign place (like Evi) because all of the things he grew up assuming would happen are now thrown into chaos. On top of that, Evi wanted Dalinar to want to spend time with her. I can definitely see this happening with Adolin and Shallan - she'll keep missing things with him because something else seemed more important at the time - or she will make herself believe it is more important the way Dalinar does. It isn't that he doesn't care for Evi, it is just that he doesn't care enough.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly Humour can be a wonderful way to bridge gaps (not sure if I intend this to be a pun involving Bridge Four or not...) It helps people recognise their similarities rather than highlighting their differences. Of course it can also be used as a weapon to drive people apart, but neither Shallan nor Kaladin use it this way (much). As a side point to the boots thing, I have a crazy idea I always think about with the boots - and that is to do a Cinderella comparison - although in this case the downtrodden slave/servant girl is actually Kaladin and Shallan is the 'handsome prince'. I also love the way she suggests that Kaladin is "stripping her" and is taking her "virtue". In fact, the whole conversation gets rather earthy for a while. Poor Kaladin!

Morning all! Catch up time for Phin I think , in a way it has. This was never going to be a traditional triangle (a la Twilight) because BS knows how to write engaging characters. OB gave us the "will they? won't they?" aspects of the triangle but in an unusual way. Adolin and Kaladin have no conflict with each other because they respect and like each other too much. The conflict arises solely within Shallan and I personally see no evidence that she has resolved her issues well enough to completely stop doing that. She is married now however so I do think there will be less Shallan/Kaladin interaction because he will likely stay away - much like Dalinar stayed away from Navani after she married Gavilar. I genuinely lol'ed at this. My SO said exactly this to me when my depression was at its worst. It was probably the first moment in years that I felt like it was ok not to feel guilty about being so rubbish. That I could forgive myself for having stumbled. It was a major turning point for me. He didn't make me better - I made myself better - but he helped me see the truth of things when everything around me was dark. It isn't built already?? *goes to get shipbuilding material* I agree - @FuzzyWordsmith discusses it further in their post - I'd love to discuss it further here in detail - but I need to re-read the chapter first! I think Sanderson prefers to be more subtle - he likes to take real-world situations and portray them through the lens of fantasy writing. His depictions of depression and anxiety in SA are very realistic. DID is less common in real-world but still a complete and definitive diagnosis with a specific constellation of symptoms. So I agree with your premise of the mirroring (storms but I do - the reflections all across the Rosharan continent are incredible) but I have a pet hypothesis about how the mirror here will work; So I agree that Adolin/Shallan mirrors Gavilar/Navani but I feel that Kaladin is like Dalinar as he is now, not as he was when he was younger. Kaladin won't go dark like Dalinar did. However, Adolin might. Adolin is "not the man [Dalinar] thought he was". Dalinar previously believed that Adolin was "a better man than [Dalinar] was". Now he probably still believes that - with good reason, but he can see Adolin's flaws. Navani and Gavilar did not have the happiest of marriages, but it is unclear what the issues were. I don't think that there was a lack of affection however, given the Ketek she wrote for Gavilar's funeral; "You, always about dreams. My soul weeps. Farewell, weeping soul. My dreams... about, always, You." I suspect that she cared but perhaps he was distant - particularly towards the end. I interpret this ketek as being about the fact that Gavilar had always had dreams and that they had always consumed him, leaving little room or time for affection for his wife. Now, given Shallan's position as a KR, and also a tendency to 'dream big' as well as a cluster of mental health problems, Adolin might also end up feeling somewhat unloved. This might drive him dark like his father before him. Kaladin, on the other hand, may mirror Dalinar's tendency to stay away from Navani - even to the point where she believed he "hated" her - Shallan may end up feeling like Navani did. On top of that, Adolin and Kaladin have a relationship that will likely mirror the relationship between Dalinar and Gavilar. Interestingly, Renarin and Adolin, despite being brothers, do not echo this relationship in the same way because Adolin has (at least until recently) felt sorry for Renarin. That is not something that either Gavilar or Dalinar seem to have felt for the other. Kaladin and Adolin have a relationship of equals and mutual respect - and whilst they have different skills, those skills complement one another. Anyway, I have no specific evidence of this - mostly just a feeling. Just a quick point, she is already at level 4 (WoB) she needs only one more truth to hit level 5. Otherwise your comments are valid. I must admit that I am worried about this as well, although I am more concerned that he will die as a result of bad actions. This may not be inherently evil actions, so much as a kid of Kelsier from mistborn route. I agree in part here - I think that may be how it started, but I also think she had a ot of her father in her. Wistiow was a good man who cared for his people. I think Laral may have decided that in order to protect Hearthstone from the worst impulses of Roshone, that she had to marry him. Remember she is not some cowering petal when we see her in OB, she is strong and clearly has more authority than her husband (the guards will disobey Roshone for Kaladin, but not Laral). She has made her peace with her place and made the most out of it. Indeed, I think she likely enjoys her position now, even if she had to suffer to gain it. She has earned the respect of her people. (Emphasis mine) I totally agree. I feel you could spend ages trying to figure which one is which and get nowehere! I also loved how the two ardents talking had different views on which one was better for the heroine of the story. This thread is the spiritual home of those two I am planning on going back and re-reading this chapter fully and seeing if we can glean anything interesting from it. My personal feeling at this point is that it probably supports Shadolin over Shalladin because it suggests that once the decision is made, it is final. It wasn't rambly at all - anyway, have you seen my posts - other than this one I mean. Do you not think? Just my interpretation then. I hate being called "dear" - it always sounds condescending. I also think she goes for Kaladin unneccessarily in this scene. Adolin doesn't need protecting from Kaladin - indeed it brushes right off him because he's confident enough in himself not to care. Not that it is ok to condone Kaladin being mean here - but she could have been more effective simply by saying it isnt necessary to tease Adolin then walking away - even joining Adolin. But she doesn't. On top of that she admits in WoR that she can't see the point in teasing Adolin because he doesn't really react. She likes getting a rise out of Kaladin. Also, it gives them an in-joke. One that has lasted 2 books now. I do not remember a similar in-joke between Adolin and Shallan. She felt a bit bad about the boots but I agree she forgot about it too quickly. The thing is we need to ask why put this in? Why set up the conflict and why do it in this manner? BS could easily have done the scene without the boots to make sure there was a little bit of concern on Kaladin's side regarding whether Shallan is an imposter or not for the rest of WoR. But he didn't, he wanted there to be a direct conflict so that both Kaladin and Shallan would be forced to confront their prejudices regarding class. Remember, Kaladin is just as classist as Shallan - even in OB he struggles to cope with the idea that tenners are just ordinary people. Though I think he is basically passed that now, he has gone a long way in this setting since the en of tWoK. Oh I agree, and compassion for her is important, but compassion on its own won't help, and poorly applied compassio can be harmful. For example, someone with a major depressive disorder may have someone come in and do everything for them. This is sometimes necessary during a major episode, especially if the person with the depression is almost catatonic, but eventually they have to be made to do some things for themselves. Healing comes from within. If they keep having everything done for them, they won't ever become independent again. In Shallan's case, it is good to accept that she has fractured her personality - this is helpful for her. It is not helpful to treat those identities differently from each other however because that reinforces the boundaries. I agree you can't force it, but that doesn't mean you have to go along with it either - the one thing a therapist for DID is told to always remember is that their client is one person with multiple problems, not multiple people. Your behaviour towards them should be consistent regardless of which alter they wear during a session. This doesn't force the client to behave a ceryain way, but it does give them an expectation of how things are going to proceed. Not sure if you read the link I sent regarding attachment? The thing is such feelings don't indicate attachment (although they don't negate it). Also, when you are attached you can be silly with your SO but not "feel" silly doing it - I suppose it is difficult to describe, and my own are feelings are my own (although my SO and I have discussed that we both feel this way, it is still anecdotal) but I don't feel any differently about my SO when we are discussing politics as to when we make in-jokes with each other. The jokes are silly - we are frequently silly in each others company but it doesn't "feel" silly, it just feels fun and warm and right. On the other hand, I am in a very different place to Shallan as my SO and I have known each other nearly 7 years. She has barely known Adolin 7 months.

I go offline for a few hours and come back to pages of comments.... It's awesome! I agree - I am about to start my 3rd read - I have the image of obsessive fan to keep up - and this is the one where I'll make my first proper notes which reference other events in the book and look for patterns. Based on WoR it will probably take me 5 or 6 reads before I am comfortable that I've found everything, then I'll probably go back and read tWoK and WoR to see what jumps out as having changed in the light of the additional information from OB. I suspect, that there is more nuanced conversation and interaction than I have previously noticed - certainly there was more on my 2nd readthrough than I noticed on my first. Sometimes the interactions are very well hidden. So here, I got the impression that it wasn't Veil, it was Shallan (as a whole) but she automatically assigns the "Kaladin is a hottie" feeling to the Veil mask. She is mentally calling herself Shallan here then decides it must be Veil talking after all.... And also, I feel you - *joins in with the sigh* I read this differently. I felt that "Shallan" feels uncomfortable here because she knows that it isn't really right to be thinking about your fiancee in this way. I mean, she basically called Adolin boring - which he is - albeit in a nice, comfortable, safe way. But whilst you may not always find your life partner exciting - it hardly leads to a feeling of hope if you find them boring. Lol, there is a bubble for everything. I make an effort to read papers and watch news channels that are not in my personal bubble from a politics perspective, but I think its ok to have a bubble for shipping So I agree it is worth looking for, but I think it has already happened. As far as we know, only two characters have killed, then successfully resurrected their spren - Kaladin and Shallan. Shallan doesn't need to have another period like Kaladin had in WoR because she had one for most of her adolescence. I agree - and the more time I've spent here, the more I feel this way. I also feel much less "meh" about the "resolution" of OB. I don't think we'll see a continuation of the "love triangle" element because the conflicts will change as a result of the marriage but I do think that there will be more conflict between Shallan and Adolin which may make things interesting. Kaladin is going to stay sway because he likes and respects Adolin and he is that kind of person anyway. He also doesn't believe that he deserves to be happy in a relationship yet. I agree and this also echoes what Jasnah writes in her book (Shallan reads it in one of her flashback scenes in WoR but I dont have the book on me atm) regarding the power of a woman to choose her role, and that it should not be prescribed to her. @SLNC what makes you think I haven't started it I agree - his sense of honour wouldn't let him deliberately ad to any conflict between Shallan and Adolin. If Kaladin does cause conflict between the newlyweds, he will likely do so by accident - either by simply being him of because Shallan is a hot mess and doesn't actually let go of her musings over him. There was conflict, it was simply that the conflict lay within Shallan herself. We didn;t need another Twilight (although I should be honest that I haven't read them or seen the films so all i know is that there is a triangle). Adolin and Kaladin need to be friends - you can't go putting your romantic leanings ahead of the safety of the world - particularly in Kaladin's case. I agree - and I am assuming that by the end of the 5th book, we'll understand at least some of what this arc was trying to achieve. Firstly - noooo don't leave! also, the fact that we are getting sucked in by this forum and thread.... does that make us the void? Are we voidbringers??? Secondly, thank you for sharing. It was very interesting to see your side of the story. I am the depressive one in my relationship and it is really important to be able to see the other person's perspective. In my experience of depression, I ended up feeling guilty for things that weren't my fault, but lost sight of the things I could control and didn't feel appropriately guilty for them. Luckily, my SO and I figured out how to be communicative so he knows that he is not responsible for my mood changes, and I know that he isn't putting pressure on me to be "well" for the sake of the relationship - it takes a huge amount of pressure off us both. You said something about learning to love yourself, and I think it is one of the most important things I've read on this forum. I agree - although it is ok to feel lighter when you are with the one you love, it isnt right to rely on them for it and you need to find ways to feel lighter without them as well. So I disagree a little here. Kaladin is stepping back - but we saw him do almost the same thing at the end of WoR. Kaladin has made his choice here sure, but there are 2 other people in this mess and they have agency of their own. If Shallan magically ends up single and healthy of mind, do we really think Kaladin isn't going to go there? Agreed - he needs to be able to manage his own moods better rather than relying on others to bring him up. I think Tarah was probably very good for him, but in a way I think she left because she was tired of having to carrying him when he was low. If he'd been able to step away from the battlefield, she likely had hope that he'd be able to put his past down and find light on his own. I'm going to try and remember to watch for this but can you post their responses here too please? Lol, I'm game. Although it would take a while. I would doubt it - criticism of one's art is inevitable but why open yourself up to the pain of having people tear your work apart. Particularly i small details. I mean, based on whats been written here, we all actually loved the book as a whole, we love the characters and we love Stormlight and other cosmere novels in general. We aren't happy with a single facet of it and have spent... 16 pages telling each other so!

Ok so here are my thoughts; 1) When a shardblade/Honourblade kill, the eyes burn out and there is smoke. I think the smoke is meant to represent the destruction of the bonds between the physical/cognitive/spiritual realm. Certainly, we know normal shards destroy the link between body and soul. 2) The colours of the blade may relate to Odium. When Dalinar interacts with Odium in chapters 56 and 57, he is wearing white and gold, has white hair and carries a golden sceptre. I think this blade may be a splinter of Odium. Essentially Odium's version of the Honorblades. 3) We know that awakened blades like Nightblood and Azure's blade are supernaturally sharp like Shardblades, they can't be summoned and dismissed though because they aren't spren. They have sheaths made of aluminium because that is the only metal that blocks investiture. Awakening requires a command word as well as a great deal of Breath, if this is indeed a splinter of Odium it will work slightly differently to the Honourblades, not least because the ability to summon/dismiss a shardblade seems to be the result of the bond between blade and person. 4)The shardblades stopped being summonable/dismissable after the Recreance until gemstones were added to the swords to allow the to be bonded again. Honour's intent is all to do with oaths being made so it makes sense that the "sheath" for a shardblade/Honorblade is the bond between sword and carrier. Odium, on the other hand is the void - oaths are not an intrinsic part of his Intent, it makes equal sense that a sword related to him would not bond with its carrier. 5) I think it is significant that Jezrien was killed using a blade associated with a Sapphire (which is the gem that represents him). I would be unsurprised if Moash was sent out to kill other Heralds but either is given a new blade with the appropriate gem in it, or the gem is replaced on the blade he currently carries. 6) I hypothesize that the black smoke and the black wound suggest that either a different bond has been cut than simply the bond between mind and body. We know the Heralds were all bonded because when they were sent to Damnation they could share their suffering. I think that it is this bond to the other Heralds that has been cut. That is why the other Heralds feel the pain of it happening then Ash says she can no longer feel her father. I suggest that Jezrien's soul has been trapped in the gem to prevent him going back to Braize (which might inhibit the desolation in some way) and also to prevent him healing the bond between himself and the other Heralds. It is possible that now that the Heraldic links have been partly broken that the Oathpact is now genuinely shattered.

No, thats fantastic! thank you so much!

Do you have canon evidence of this? We know they could surgebind on Ashyn because that is how they destroyed the planet.