PhineasGage

That is true of any subject we are discussing on the forum. There is a great deal of information we don't have on almost every subject in Roshar. In a way, shipping is the easiest because we all understand human relationships, we don't really understand the underlying Rosharan history or magic systems.

I don't think this is right - firstly because the Stormfather himself refers to a 3rd sibling and tells Dalinar to "leave them alone" - because humans have hurt this entity enough already. Also, the Stormfather already existed, he was simply altered upon Honor's death - presumably getting more investiture as Honour was dying.

As I mentioned above, the shards affect the whole system they are in so if they can be formed on Roshar (as a result of thinking creatures in the physical realm) there is no reason they wouldn't form on Ashyn. The destruction of the planet may have wiped them out along with sentient life on the planet.

I suspect that he does still have 2 brothers and that they are well. They are simply younger than he is. Horn-eater families are large - Rock himself says so. He may well have been 5th (or even lower) son but his 4 elder brothers are now dead. He may still have 2 younger brothers. I do agree that he is now likely head of his family and possibly more (both given that he was likely important anyway and also because he now owns shards). King? Well I think he needs to accept the responsibility before he can technically be called that. OB's main theme was accepting responsibility. He may not feel he can given that killed Amaram - he seems to have made an oath not to fight - perhaps he killed an older brother and that is why he went from being a soldier to being a cook? It might explain why he has such an aversion to fighting.

Firstly, I'd like to echo @DeployParachute's thoughts that it was very courageous of you to talk about your personal situation. Secondly, I think that your comment about having a well of strength is an amazingly profound way of looking at it - you are essentially living the first ideal which is something most of us probably aren't doing - or at least, I don't think I am. It also is obviously giving you a great deal of empathy when thinking about how others are feeling which is a second strength that has come out of what seems to have been a truly terrible period of your life. @DeployParachute - I'd also like to say that you are also very brave for taking about your experience. I also think that your point regarding sharing burdens is extremely important for people to understand. It takes courage to share burdens but once you've opened yourself up, carrying those burdens is a great deal easier. In some cases, you might even be able to put some of them down As a side note, I think, no matter our perspective on the books, it is testament to the strength of Sanderson's character writing that he can write personalities that we can empathise with so well, no matter our own personal experiences. Some of us may have greater insight as to character situations, but the mark of a great writer is being able to make you feel like a character is believable, even if the author themselves hasn't lived the experience.

Yes, this also aligns with Sel So I mostly agree with @taxilian's timeline but I would like to add a few thoughts. It is clear from Arcanum Unbound that Shards affect the whole system they are on, not only the single world they reside on. So Ashyn, Roshar and Braize are all under the sway of at least Cultivation and Honour - and likely Odium to a lesser extent (remember he has been on Sel prior to arriving in Roshar and splintered the shards there). This means that the surges should have been available to all three worlds, though, due to resonance of the shards, it is possible that there are local minor differences in how they work on each individual planet - for example, it is unclear how humans on Ashyn might have accessed investiture given that the only way we see it accessed by humans on Roshar is via the highstorms. This is important. Assuming that humans came from Ashyn and there are no more major reveals regarding the history of the system, we can assume that humans always accessed surgebinding. What is not clear is how this changed upon Odium's arrival. I for one am perfectly prepared to believe that Odium is the direct cause of the humans destroying Ashyn. Indeed, it is possible he overpowered the access to surges to make it possible for them to destroy their world. He likely planned it so that he had an invading force to use as he attacked Honor and Cultivation on Roshar. I believe that the humans call Ashyn the "Tranquiline Halls" because they had been just that - tranquil (well, for humans anyway - we arent exactly the nicest species) but Odium's arrival likely made tranquility impossible. I agree that the Nahel bond comes into existence after humans arrive on Roshar - but that doesn't mean they needed it prior to leaving Ashyn. Most worlds do not require a spren. Most importantly, even if it was required, could they not have bonded spren on Ashyn before they left? They would have lost access to the surges potentially as they went to Roshar because the spren would definitely have been different - for one thing, the spren of Roshar were influenced by the Listeners. It is also possible, and some would say even likely that the humans practiced void-binding which still uses the surges - it just uses them differently. It is entirely conceivable that it took time for the Rosharan spren to figure out the Nahel bond because humans were still relatively new to Roshar - remember spren change very little if they don't have the bond. The importance of the present version of the Nahel bond is that it is gated. It is implied that this gating is an artificial construct and has been imposed later. It makes it harder to bond a spren in the first place, and slows down the rate a person can access stormlight. This is also important because it shows that "natural" bonding betwen spren and humans was possible on Roshar - this implies it could also have happened elsewhere.

First off, I am really starting to love waking up and finding all the interesting insights that appear overnight! A big thank-you to everyone who has posted on this thread - To be clear, even if I disagree with your interpretation, I do value it because it helps me see alternative ideas and consolidate my own feelings. Right, to comments I totally agree - I suppose it is not fair to say she is taking the "easy" way out, but I do think she is choosing the "safer path". As long as she continues to travel along the path it is still part of the journey. Indeed, we all go chasing after dead-ends sometimes. And Even if they do go nowhere, it can be so much fun I agree to an extent - I am not sure he would instinctively feel too bad about bending - but of course, we know he wants this to be his major life's work. One that will have people talking about the books long after his death. Any artist pretty much needs to confront difficult issues in order for their art to remain relevant. If a book is too safe, then it won't draw new readers. I don't know..... The fact that Adolin snapped like that really worries me. If you had asked me during tWoK or WoR (before the end obviously) who was the most likely to commit a murder, Adolin would have been last on my list. I would have guessed Shallan most likely unless it had been suggested that the murder happened in anger. I might have suggested Kaladin in that case, but have been less sure of the idea because he had already broken Syl and then resurrected her. He isn't about to go and d something silly to her again. I also think people read too much into the idea that people not being sad about Sadeas' death makes it ok. It isn't. Charles Manson dies a couple of days ago, and no doubt most people feel a vague kind of "good riddance" in response to that (with good reason I might add) but if he had been killed by someone in a fit of anger then just because he was a monster it does not excuse the act of murder. Bear in mind that it is likely that even amongst Dalinar's own team there are likely people who wonder if he had Sadeas assassinated. That hardly benefits the goal of a man who is trying to bring people togther, and I haven't even touched on how Sadeas' death resulted in Amaram bonding with Yelig-Nar. Yes, that is how I felt too - although @wannabeninja's post below yours made me feel hugely better. I very much agree with this as my poor SO has to put up with me being a right pain in the neck sometimes! It isn't fair to expect your SO to pick you up when you fall, it is ok for them to put a hand out to help you stand up on your own. It feels like Shallan wants Adolin to carry her, rather than walk by her side. Yes I completely agree. I have long felt that Kaladin is almost personification of Roshar - he is so often referred to as hard or stony, has periods of darkness (it gets dark during the storms) but is capable of bringing light to others (also like the storms). The wind is a huge element in Roshar, more so than any other and it is also a huge thing in Kaladin's life as well as both he and others identify him. Having now spent many hours looking though my textbooks and online resources (as a med student) I must say I disagree. The fundamental pount of DID is that there is not an anchor personality per se. There is a "prime" which is the personality that identifies as the original person, but to suggest they are the "main" is false. We are each all of our personalities - including the bits we pretend we don't have. Shallan + Veil + Radiant is the personality (plus any others we haven't seen because they are not communicating with the others), because Shallan, Veil and Radiant each lack certain key features of the full personality, not one is any more "real" than the others. A bit like Adonalsium, the Intents make more sense when they are together because they give context to each intent. Shallan, as a whole person will be slightly different to each one of her identities because they will subtly alter the way her traits interact. I very much disagree. Please look at the scene in part 2 (Rock PoV chapter 37) where Kaladin is trying to help Hobber draw Stormlight. Rock's assessment of Kaladin shows how that the men of Bridge 4 see how Kaladin and it includes "an astonishing tenderness in this man". No-one knows Kaladin better than Bridge 4. Uh oh - er challenge accepted? I wrote about 30 pages as part of an essay (for myself because I'm weird) discussing this - just using WoR data. If you would like some details I will very happily discuss them -although perhaps in a PM rather than here - I don't want to take the thread on a complete tangent - if you are genuinely interested, feel free to PM me. I disagree - Shallan was in a relatively good place (for Shallan) in the chasms. Kaladin has literally just killed Syl. It doesnt get much lower. He doesn't rise again until much later. To me, Shallan is much healthier at this point than she is by the end of OB. She has accepted the death of her father much more easily than that of her mother - she can push things aside, but, crucially, she can also bring it out again to examine her feelings and start resolving them. She is not doing this in OB. The ability to admit to another person the fact that she killed Lin is a huge deal. It means she has accepted it into herself, despite the pain it brings. Um, firstly, it is clear that Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other - one example (of many) is that they both take major leaps at almost identical times - eg the way they both grow on confidence on the same night when Shallan breaks into Amaram's manor and Kaladin flies out of the chasms. Storms, they both even think about killing him! I also don't think she has to imagine what he went though. He told her his whole story (except for killing Helaran - and that was actually something he missed by mistake) during the hihstorm when they were in the chasms.Most importantly, she is much more patronising to Adolin - I particularly draw your attention to the line "That was an insult, dear" that she says only a few pages before she falls int the chasm. To me, the chasm scene reflects more than just a relationship betwen these two. The chasms represent failure and redemption - both of these characters have fallen exceedingly badly - indeed both have killed (or mostly killed) their spren, but despite this, they have worked through the challenge of falling so far, and successfully found their way out. Of all of the KR we know, no other characters break as badly as these two have because no-one else has killed then resurrected their spren as far as we know. I disagree here too - one of the reasons she doesnt want Adolin to see Veil is because she doesn't want to apparear vulnerable to him. She has already exposed her vulnerability to Kaladin - it is why he is so amazed she is still functional. Adolin, on the other hand, allows her to be weak by enabling her dissociation. But isn't she supposed to put "Stength before weakness". I don't blame her - weakness is easier - it is easier to say "I can't do it" than to say "Even if I can't I have to try". Most importantly, of your statement, I don't think she tries to appear whole and complete to Kaladin, I think he sees her that way anyway. True - but you shouldnt have to "work" at a relationship when you are still in the honeymoon phase. Storms, after nearly 7 years with my SO it still hardly ever feels like work. Sacrifice only seems bad when you don't want to do it. When you love someone, you put them first and it doesn't have to be hard to do so. Also, bear in mind that she thinks about her relationship with Adolin very clinically. Now there is nothing wrong with that inherently, but it does undermine the whole 'I am sooooo in love" business. Um, if she has DID, Veil and Shallan are one person, not two. He is married to one woman. She has one personality. Shallan + Veil + Radiant. Just because she identifies them as three distinct people doesn't mean she is right. She is one person with multiple issues, not multiple personalities. Yes but thats why her feelings about Adolin are a problem - she chooses to feel "silly" and "giddy" - single brief moments rather than choosing attachment. Now I do not think she s more attached to Kaladin than Adolin. She hasn't known him long enough either. It is not the best basis for a marriage. Its a stage everyone goes through, but marriage is based on so much more. @wannabeninja I just want to especially thank you for your post - it made me feel so much better because it showed light and hope in a way I hadn't been able to see well before hand. Props to you I agree - Adolin is very good for both of them, and like so many things, Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other in this. I kind of feel it is a side plot, but is a major one if that makes sense. I personally think that whilst relationships are obviously important parts of a person's life, those relationships don't have to be with particular people in order for a person to flourish. Essentially, I don't believe in fate/the"one" (other than Neo of course) or destiny. For example, Kaladin doesn't need Shallan to grow, and she doesn't need him either. That isn't to say that their relationship isnt going to end up as a major point of the books (whether romantic or not) it is just that it doesnt have to. I feel that both of the characters would grow even if their counterpart wasn't around. (Emphasis mine) Wow, you and I have completely different reads on this. I think Kaladin doesn't see the fronts because he sees one person. I think Adolin can see them because he has a picture of who Shallan is in his mind (which is her fault in fairness as she plays a role for him) and when she doesn't quite act according to expectations he sees it as being a result of the split. Regarding the bit I highlighted; I do think there are reasonable examples, but even if I did not it still wouldn't mean that Adolin knows her better either. This is, in essence, the core of my argument. Whether or not you believe Adolin or Kaladin is better comes down to personal preference and both are perfectly valid options. The issue is that Shallan chooses one over the other despite not knowing either of them nearly well enough to actually make an informed choice. Now, she goes with her gut on many things so she might well turn out to be right - but that just makes her lucky. Many people who rush into marriage end up regretting it. Wow -thank you @Walin - I actually consider myself to simply be a person who has too much time on their hands! And anyway, I certainly would't have started on this thread the way I had if @SLNC hadn't raised some marvellous points I couldn't ignore. I agree - To be fair, she doesnt approach Kaladin either (from memory) but then you and I both have agreed that frankly she needs to get some "me time" and sort her mental state out before she considers a relationship - well its too late for that but we at least agree by choosing at all she's made her life harder. Really? I am. It will be great to learn about Shinovar - it seems so different from the rest of Roshar. Also, it is implied that the Shin know a bit more about the Heralds/Oathpact etc even if they have got quite a bit of it wrong. I mean, of all the races we know, only the Shin had people watch for the return of the voidbringers. Did they know a desolation was still a potential? Also, BS is really good at worldbuilding and it will be a relief to move away from thinking about the romantic arcs for a while!

What a wonderful safe, consistent, regular household to bring up children in. They'd be sooooooo lucky...... /s On the other hand, it could be a very interesting set of scenes to write. I mean, what is Adolin going to do if he and Shallan are holding audiences (or whatever highprinces do) with others in the court and she is fluctuating between her alts? Adolin: (sighs) Will I ever actually get to see the real Shallan? Veil: Probably - how's your schedule next week? Adolin: Next week??! What does man have to do to get to some attention from the woman he married? Veil: (cheekily) Fly? On second thoughts, this has a serious undercurrent of pain to it......

Storms, thats annoying. I mean I am a native English speaker, I don;t really want to have to worry about translation problems when I am reading a book in English. I have never heard of the word non-plussed meaning anything other than confused. As a side note, I had wondered before about this - North Americans I have known use capacity differently to Brits as well in my experience. For example, Taravangian asks for the "capacity" to beat Odium. A British person would be unlikely to use capacity in this context - we'd be more likely to use ability. Capacity is something we use to describe how much space there is in something. It occasionally might refer to a person's space for managing something - eg their capacity for compassion. On the other hand, if you want to beat something in the UK, you'd ask for the ability to beat them. Anyone got any thoughts on this or am I reading too much into capacity? I had always wondered if Taravangian had a set "capacity" and he either fills it up with compassion or with intelligence, but not both at the same time because he literally runs out of room!

Respectfully, neither do Adolin and Shallan. How much time - even off screen have they actually spent together? It is very little - other than a few walks and chats at the beginning, we don;t see any real realtionship development until the "poop" scene, a brief interaction after a duel, the carriage ride and menagerie but then Adolin goes and lands himself in prison for a couple of weeks. All of their interactions are heavily structured because of the way Vorin society divides men and women. They don't interact in any great detail during the march into the centre of the shattered plains because Shallan is too busy researching, and it is clear Adolin doesn't know her when she gets out of the chasms because she viscerally hisses at him when he talks about protecting her. Do we see any serious improvement in their understanding of each other in OB. I do not believe so. And, neither do a great many people, even Shadolin shippers. I am not suggesting she knows Kaladin better. I am suggesting that she's rushed into a relationship with a man she barely knows and does not really understand and, most importantly he doesn't know or understand her either. Kaladin is essentially irrelevant to this problem. Whether or not I prefer Shalladin as a concept does not matter if I think she shouldn't have chosen either of them. If we haven't seen it, then how do you know? There is no evidence of understanding. Someone claiming something in their PoV doesn't make it true - especially Shallan who has this terrible case of not knowing who she really is. That makes her the ultimate unreliable narrator in OB. True, but that also doesn't automatically mean that it isn't real. Who else, besides Shallan's brothers, knows she killed her father? She has, to my knowledge, told only one person other than Pattern and that is Kaladin. That isn't simply getting caught up in his wake. No-one else is rushing to spill their secrets to him - he has to pry them out of every one of Bridge 4, and even then some of them still are hiding things (looking at you Rock). I don't know that he needs one. He's had Tarah as a good, solid, stable romance that he uses as a benchmark. She seems to have pretty great so he probably has quite a high bar when it comes to getting involved with someone. He won't just go for transient things, he's looking for someone who gets him like she did. This is very important. Humans also like to see patterns, even when they don't exist so we will make things fit a "trope" if we really want to see them that way. I agree - after the chasm sequence it would have felt exceedingly hollow. Great call - you are absolutely right. She isn not as disinterested as she'd like us to think.

I agree. The whole situation is a mess. I do think Odium has planned for this and therefore whilst it is important that people take responsibility, they aren't realy to blame. I mean even Dalinar only managed to stand up to Odium as he basically manifested as a shard. He'd been Odium's tool for years prior to that - look at the way he fails to resist the Thrill. We lnow Sadeas felt the same way because he says so in his PoV in WoR. Sadeas and Dalinar weren't so different, but key choices made their individual paths completely diverge.

Thats a perfectly reasonable idea. Did we see a similar situation with Aesudan or had she already swallowed Yelig-Nar when she gets on-stage? I'll go and look in a bit unless someone has a quick answer for me

Don't stopping your metaphors should be like stopping a highstorm. Ok so that was a simile.... but you get the idea. And I know what you mean, I think in this case it was more that I wanted to go to the forest and ended up at the seaside and you were going the other way, so we perhaps crossed paths somewhere

I read it this way too.I was always worried that Adolin may have been a pawn of Odium's in this moment because he acted out of hatred. Now I am not clear that hatred is actually Odium's defining Intent but it certainly is present when Dalinar and he interact. Given the way Odium is implied to be very much playing the long game with multiple contingencies, I am concerned that Adolin was acting as an agent of Odium (unknowingly). In addition to this, he loses control several times in Sadeas' presence and there is a "surge" linked with him each time - whilst one could, of course, believe this is surgebinding manifesting (and I have no evidence to assume that it isn't) we could also wonder if it is voidbinding or something similar occuring as the Fused obviously have access to the surges. I also think that many people seem to see the Sadeas murder as a good thing. Personally, I don't. For one thing I can't see how you can claim the moral highground if you commit murder and then show no real remorse afterwards. The loss of Sadeas potentially has other consequences that the battle at Thaylen city as well. Ialai becomes unpredictable and ends up with a Ghostblood as some kind of body guard. Mraize claims that she is not a member of their group, but a) can we trust him really and b ) even if he is telling the truth, it implies she is mixing with not-good groups. Indeed we know she is because she appoints Amaram to be the leader of House Sadeas. Who knows what else she does? We know she has the biggest network of spies in the kingdom of Alethkar - she could very easily be pulling strings that we aren't even aware of yet. The best option was to keep Sadeas alive because he was a known quantity - and you can plan for it. Once he dies, the situation is much more fluid. For me anyway, the worst thing about the situation is that Adolin is not sorry. Adolin is better than that. If he had shown remorse, he'd be easier to forgive, but he doesn't. This feels too much like an emotion that he is choosing to give up. It seems that because he feels that Sadeas "deserved" to be killed, Adolin isn't really responsible. This worries me because the theme throughout OB was accepting responsibility, not dodging it.

Wow that's depressing Now they are married I would definitely rather they worked it out. But Yeah - I feel this way too. Its happening over in the Mayalaran thread and I feel like I must have read 3 different books sometimes! @SLNC I agree very much with your post as a whole. As a result, I also agree with the sentiments shared by @mariapapadia although I disagree that the destination was ok Now I was definitely in the Shalladin camp but I did feel the same way as you did - she was so fragile and seems to be using Adolin to buttress herself. Even if he is the better bet long term, its hardly fair to put all the pressure on another person because when you falter, they feel responsible. I agree completely. If there had been no significant movement in Shalladin but there had been serious strides taken with Shadolin then I think most of the discontent voiced in this thread would disappear. But we got sections like this: This is from chapter 77 (emphasis mine). So as we all know Kaladin is heavily aligned with the wind, indeed he is likened to the wind and the wind is used as a placeholder for him in loads of places elsewhere in the books. I actually made a note to myself regarding this whole scene where there are loads of references to the storm and wind though I wont list them all here. I thought this was almist too heavy handed as an element of foreshadowing - but at the end she goes and runs away to Adolin, and the decision occurs in an eyeblink. I happened to have a page turn and thought I must have missed some pages! That is the thing that annoys me - all I wanted was something to get behind and I felt so let down. Especially as she has explicitly compared Adolin to a fine sculpture in WoR! No, I think we've simply acknowledged that there is no point overworking the possible outcomes. We can be disappointed with the handling of a section, even if it isn't finished. Pretty sure this is WoB and there is good evidence in the canon of OB anyway. Personally I'm not convinced he'd become a Radiant, even if he does awaken her. This is definitely true - if anything they are less emotionally intimate - Shallan was genuine and sincere (as was Adolin) in the "poop" scene in WOR - and they felt like they had a proper connection there even though it was so early in their relationship. It did get nauseating at times in WoR but she is much less sappy with him - I mean she basically initiates the whole 'get Sadeas into a duel with Adolin' plan - and if she'd carried on in that vein I'd have been so much happier. Wow this is depressing. I mean, I suppose at least if it is a trainwreck this would be a single bright spot Personally I think this would definitely be the most interesting aspect of a potential breakdown. I suspect that Adolin will have much less agency in their relationship than Shallan because a) she's a Radiant and b ) he is the more selfless. and c) he feels he needs to support her and will likely do what she wants, rather than do what he wants. I can definitely see this getting old - especially if she undermines him in some way. We've seen her be (very occasionally) a bit patronising to Adolin and if she does that in public now he is highprince then his political position is deeply undermined. So I do disagree with you here. As someone who could be called a 'serial monogamist', choosing a different partner at a different stage in your life does not automatically make your later choices worse. Usually, (in my experience anyway) the choices get better because you learn more about what you are looking for in a partner. I agree - I felt exactly the same way and went through the same change of heart as you describe. Yes I agree - her "festering" issues that she shoves to the back of her brain boil out and poor Kaladin tends to get the brunt of them. He doesn't seem to mind that much. I wonder if Adolin would have been so stoic had their positions been reversed? Agreed - I think Adolin would actually be great as "support staff" but Shallan needs more than support, she needs a whole wing of a psych hospital to herself at this point. I must say, I'd love to give you an upvote but I've run out today I'll try to remember to send you one when they refresh.

Interestingly, I always thought Lopen was a candidate because he was obviously trying too hard. I never felt that about Adolin. That being said, I would prefer him to stay as a non-radiant because he is more interesting this way - it adds a sense of risk when he fights for example. I mean I doubt if anyone thought Kaladin would die but Adolin facing that thunderclast had genuine risk to it. I personally think it would be most interesting if he awakens Amaya but doesn't become a radiant - either they work together in a mutual respect relationship but not one that forges a link between them that forces them both to behave in certain ways, or even if he awakens her and then she chooses to leave him anyway because she needs time to recover and get used to living again. Bear in mind, this isn't the first time we see something other than a scream from a dead blade - Oathbringer whimpers to Dalinar, and if he had understood it better as a distinct individual, perhaps it too would start waking up.

Not necessarily.Not sure how much experience you've had with end of life care, but in my experience (which is pretty reasonable) different people handle it differently. They will certainly have low days but end-of-life doesnt have to break you. In fact the most important thing you can do when working in end-of-life care is ensure that they maintain as normal a view of themselves as possible by maintaining dignity and managing pain vs maintaining awareness according to how the patient wants to manage it. Most people feel better if they have the opportunity to speak to loved ones and arrange things like wills and other financial issues so that they feel like they arent leaving things undone. Most importantly, are you broken if you put yourself back together? Doesn't that make you mended? And he had them - but there is nothing wrong with being best friends with a sibling. He doesn't need many close friends because he knows his brother will always have his back. My point is that he can form lasting bonds with people. Renarin, in contrast seems to have no friends other than Adolin which is more concerning for him. Adolin though, I don't think he shows an inability to form lasting sensible relationships simply because he has friends with his brother. I think dismissing Hesina's point misses the fact that Kaladi and Tien were close and that shows an ability to connect with another person. Plenty of people arent close with their siblings, it isnt a given you have to be friends.

1) You don't go and kill him - It makes you exactly the same. Besides which, the Highprinces were (albeit in a flawed way) trying to fulfil the Vengeance Pact. Sades thought he needed to do things the way he did because of Gavilar. His reasoning was flawed but he genuinely seemed to think he would get Adolin on side eventually. They didn't need to go to war - they could have managed it the way Dalinar wanted it handled - by keeping Sadeas where they could see him. Killing him only ended up making things worse - how many men died at Thaylen City because they believed that Dalinar had Sadeas killed? Secondly, I think that declaring Sadeas a murderer is not really clear. He let Dalinar get surrounded, but he didn;t hold the knife himself. He's a scheming oily, conniving bastard, but "murder" has a specific definition. 2) We also don't know that Kaladin didn't have a sensible alternative to Jasnah because Dalinar cut the argument off. And anyway, anyone with half a brain could see that just killing a herald wouldn't solve the problem - they need to be interrogated and more information gathered before any kind of dramatic act is made. Point by point: Um false, Evi clearly implies that Dalinar isn't interested in Renarin because he never bothers going to see him. I think Renarin was the more neglected. Yes, but he had other family members supporting him. Losing a parent is traumatic but he seems to manage it well. When? I missed this, I was under the impression that Adolin gloried whenever his father praised him and that they are very close. And? Besides, looking at him as a child, he definitely wanted to emulate his father. He picks up strategic thinking directly from his father. What responsibility? Adolin himself says he likes not having responsibility in tWoK. He ha only just become the Highprince and he still has his dad around to ask for advice. He still got to duel most of the time, he simply couldn't compete the way he wanted to. Given the way the Thrill affects the Alethi, this is probably a good thing. Or he seeks the challenge. He doesnt like killing the singing Parshendi because it is too easy but before that he doesnt seem to mind too much. This is true and is likely the most important thing that might have affected him, although he doesn't dwell on it the way Kaladin does it does seem to be the thing that is most likely to break him. Not necessarily. His brother is his best friend. And he was playing the field. He is young enough that a lack of a long term relationship doesn't point to a problem - particularly when he is now in one anyway! Or she is the only one he can contact easily without raising suspicion given that the spanreeds to the Light-eyes in the city have gone dark. Perhaps he would have stayed with one of them if he'd been able to contact them?

Hmm I disagree - Syl, (i believe in tWoK) tells Kaladin that "all spren are basically the same person). They vary a good deal less than humans. Secondly, Adolin is not remorseful he says so directly to Dalinar (I don't have my book on me atm but it is something like "and I'm glad I did"). And I also disagree that killing Sadeas was "right". Kaladin didn't do it - and his sense of right and wrong is probably good deal more acute than Adolin's given his bond to Syl. Dalinar didn't want it done - yes it may have made things easier in the short term but would Amaram have ended up on the field of battle commanding all of Sadeas' troops if Sadeas had been alive? Possibly, though I think it unlikely. That means that Adolin played right into Odium's hand. Additionally, I would argue that murder is never justified. He was the aggressor here. What he does here is as unforgivable as Amaram killing Kaladin's men, and even Amaram seems to have struggled with guilt over this - which Adolin isn't. The closest he gets to guilt is that he feels he has let his father down. And he has. I think people are being too lenient on Adolin because he is "the good guy". Additonal thoughts: Erm.... yeah because if its only one murder thats not so bad? And whatever you say about Sadeas, murder really isnt the answer. Um Here is the quote: "I'm not sorry for what I did - and I'd do it again, right now". That's not remorseful. I don't see guilt about the murder, he only feels bad because he thinks he's let his dad down. Evidence please? I know it was said that some orders would be ok with this, is it confirmed that the Edgedancers are amongst them?

If you are going to bring the dates in I'd suggest Brandon grew up with tropes more like mine than those that are more recent. And yes, I can honestly say I didn't think "oh thats not going to last". I honestly thought he was going to run with it because if the way he has handled arranged marriages in the past. Not only that, people expect arranged marriages to fail but, in cultures where arranged marriages occur, many are very successful, they are not inherently bad as long as everyone involved is happy with the plan. But breaking an arranged marriage is MUCH more unusual. And even then, he would get a sense of purpose from his father, brother, personal history etc. I suppose you could argue 'happiness' but that is a bit nebulous in my mind - why would she make him happy? I suppose she can make him laugh, and she can be sincere but we less and less of sincere Shallan as she hides more and more within her lies. Wow. Harsh! I mean you are right, but I might have phrased it in a less brutal way I do agree with the rest of your statement though. I think for Adolin things have pretty much always just worked out okay. He likely sees marriage as working the same way, even though he must have realised that his parents' marriage wasn't the happiest. Things have come too easily for Adolin Kholin and he might soon realise that he will need to work much harder than he has in the past to make this work.

And getting involved with the group that tried to kill the current queen.... I do agree that we will need to see how much she tells him - an open, clear, honest relationship will stabilise them and will have good indicators. If not, well its only a matter of time before it collapses. That doesn't mean it has to stay collapsed, but frankly, who would want to stay married to someone who has lied about everything? Unless the story is designed to make it feel like it results in little progression. I think, based on people's comments here, both Shadolin and Shalladin fans feel disspointed with the arc here. That, to me, feels like a calculated decision to make us want to see progression in the following books.

True, but Adolin is a side character like Kelsier was. Also, its a huge number of exceptions And they were way less annoying than Adolin/Shallan. I think it is both imo - cringeworthy and foreshadowy. He is good at that kind of thing. *Looks at every comment that Hoid has ever made*. More tropey than the literal Disney Prince Charming and Redheaded Disney Princess? I think you and I must have grown up with different tropes! Storms, Adolin even has a name that is reminiscent of Adonis - a literal Greek god of beauty. Even his name (lit. born unto Light) makes him linked to a "Light"-weaver. I disagree that Kaladin and Shallan are more tropey than this. I suppose however, that it is genuinely difficult to avoid romantic tropes because every literary romance has already been written. As a person who has probably read way more of the classics (eg Austen, Bronte etc) than I have contemporary fiction, the Kaladin and Shallan story is much more unusual than the Adolin/Shallan thing. The only thing that makes them a more classic romance is that we've seen a very clear misunderstanding which is a key part of the generic romance storyline (i.e. boy meets girl, minor conflicts, major misundersderstanding, reconcilliation, get together).

Ok I understand now. Essentially, I suppose I feel the same way about your theory as you do mine Until we have more definitive proof one way or the other, we simply have to decide as individuals whether a theory "feels" right. Can I ask you to elaborate further perhaps on the importance of the relationship you are suggesting - for example, given that there are 9 unmade (not 10 as explicitly stated by BS) why is it do you suggest that Taln's return to Roshar has not resulted/will not result in the formation of another unmade? Do you have any suggestion for the mechanism for the creation of the Unmade? I'm not trying to nitpick so much as get a broader sense of the idea - then perhaps we may look for more evidence that relates to the Unmade. On the other hand, Taravangian does explicitly say they are a deviation, and not worth our time!

Thank you. I was up late (reading this forum) so I'm exhausted! I blame the 17th Shard for my stupidity today. I do agree with you essentially showing how she wont manage the day-to-day problems of a serious committed relatiosnhip. Indeed, I doubt very much that he left his chamber thinking that the wedding was a celebration of him! Adolin can be a bit self-centred but he's getting better. More importantly, given that he could easily have let himself be trapped into a marriage of convenience before and chose not to, I think he takes the idea of marriage seriously. Given that Shallan's family life seems to have been very messed up, she likely has little understanding of what a happy healthy marriage actually looks like.

I hate to bring it up, but the only Edgedancer we know has a sword who doesnt like hurting people. Adolin is a murderer who is glad he killed Sadeas. I'm not saying there isn't some possibility of edgedancery-ness going on but given the way Wyndle acts I'd be surprised if a cultivationspren would be comfortable bonding someone who feels no remorse for killing someone. I mean, it doesn't rule it out if Adolin does end up regretting his actions but is it not likely that he would need to do so before Maya can bond him?