PhineasGage

Give it time I may be a cynic. I remember the Harry-Ron-Hermione debacle first hand.... Although to be fair, even that wasnt as bad as the Good-Snape vs Bad-Snape discussions!

I meant to comment on this previously- I totally agree with you. Radiant's glare could easily be multilayered- 1) Dont make Shallan mess this up NOW the wedding is literally moments away, 2) the decision is made, tough it out, 3) shut up shut up shut up dont let her see we are actually one being - i like my autonomy. Radiant to me seems the coldest, most pragmatic and most selfish of the 3 personas weve seen. Selfishness is part of every person, and is not inherently bad unless it acts without other more benevolent actions to compensate - selfishness allows us all as individuals to survive sometimes when selflessness wouldnt but is not healthy or nice if not tempered. If Shallan has pushed her normal selfishness onto Radiant, she is less selfish as Veil or Shallan, but Radiant doesnt have the traits that make both Shallan and Veil likeable and decent as people in themselves. I'm afraid i dont know this one - any chance you can either summarise it in a spoiler tag for me or point me to where i can get some idea - without having to watch the series. I'm not really a TV person. I think you put yourself well without sounding harsh. I hope we aren't alienating the Shadolin team because that certainly isnt my goal and I dont think anyone here wants to add to the rift that seems to have formed between Shadolin/Shalladin shippers. For what its worth, most people here, regardless of preference prior to OB seem to feel that Shallan's choice does Adolin no real credit - credit he deserves, he's a good bloke, but "winning" the girl seems a bit of a Pyrrhic victory in this case

I agree. It is really important to understand that "alter" personalities in DID are not truly separate, they are all facets of the whole - a bit like sides of a coin are not really opposite - they are merely aspects of a 3D structure. Shallan, Veil and Radiant (plus any unknown facets) are all part of a single more complete personality. No single aspect is the "true" Shallan. Generally people with DID have emotional aspects and "apparently normal" aspects but each is usually incomplete because aspects are separated from each other. In this case, Veil (to me anyway) seems the most complete/normal because she has some emotional aspects but is mostly an apparently normal (ie functional) personality. Radiant is the least. Shallan seems to have divided herself into 1) the emotional aspect that feels and can acknowledge the pain of her past and feels emotions most strongly, 2) The apparently normal aspect (Veil) who has emotional understanding to a point but actually cannot handle serious emotional stress - any stress is deliberately pushed onto the Shallan persona so that it doesn't impact Veil's ability to funtion, 3) The pragmatic persona - the one who can do what is necessary without any emotional burden (ie Radiant) does not actually feel emotional responses - they are likely pushed subconsciously onto Shallan, but when an emotional response is needed in a functional context, Veil comes out. Radiant is the most appropriate when the emotional stress is too much for the Shallan persona to cope with. That's why when Jasnah goes to find Shallan in Thaylen City at the end, she grabs Radiant - Veil and Shallan can't cope with the death and destruction around her. The issue is a truly functioning person will have moments of failure but will get over them - it may take years to manage it after serious trauma (which is different for different people - loss of a loved one affects people differently for example), but they will use multiple coping mechanisms. Shallan doesn't allow herself to fail properly - failures are pushed onto a specific aspect - usually the Shallan persona which is why Veil gets really lost when she realises that her feeding the people of Kholinar is actually harming them. She reverts to blackouts/time lapses at that point because she cannot rationalise it being Shallan's problem - because she internally divides Veil's actions from her own. I see no evidence that she is accepting that they are one person - indeed the wedding scene to me suggests it is getting worse. I don't have DID but I can see why Shallan might divide things this way. Emotion can be really hard, particularly when confronting perceived failure. Kaladin proves this over and over again. He describes that person in him as "the wretch" and externalises it a little but at least he still acknowledges that it is him. She needs to function so she creates Veil to handle the hassles of daily life. The creation is complete/complex enough to manage multiple varying situations. Radiant is less complete but is built specifically to handle the immediate stress of severely traumatic situations, it is why we see Veil most in OB and Radiant the least. I must admit though that I am concerned that she is still having off screen blackouts (nb drawings she does without knowing) which suggest a 4th aspect that is not in communication with the others. Having an unknown, uncommunicative alter is VERY bad for prognosis unless she can open up lines of communication so she can bring it back into the fold. How can she become whole if she isnt even aware part of her is missing? Perhaps the drawings are part of an attempt to communicate with herself - look out for more in book 4 because they may hint at this.

It is usual for wealthy lighteyes to have their bodies soulcast after death then placed in Mausoleum. It seems to be a longstanding thing because Shallan thinks about her father having to be burned rather than soulcast to join his ancestors in the family catacomb. That (to me) implies there are at least a few generations in most family catacombs of the highborn light-eyes. Lin Davar is 3rd dahn so at least the top 3 tiers of society have been doing it for a while. It may not be loads in comparison with the full population but it is likely to be a significant number.

Definitely Eshonai for me, although all the deaths you mentioned caught me somewhat by surprise - not the fact that Elhokar died, but definitely how it happened. Eshonai's death was utterly flooring for me. I had convinced myself (somehow) that it was possible she'd live, lose the stormform and go normal Listener and form a Listener rebellion against Odium. I suppose she still could if her soul went to Braize or into the Everstorm, but imo dead people should stay dead. He's already pulled Jasnah out - although that was heavily implied so it wasn't a huge revelation when we saw her return from Shadesmar. I think Eshonai's death also threw me because Venli was so convinced she was alive.

Oh, I've seen that. And I don't buy it. I completely agree. Regarding the chasm scene mentioned by @DeployParachute I agree that it completely changes the impact of that sequence - which is a huge section of WoR for a period that covers such a short period of time. Surely such a gorgeous sequence can't be so ..... well lacking in overall impact? With regards to how even the scene in OB with Shallan and Kaladin mentioned above is actually foreshadowed - remember that Sigzil wants to punch Kaladin (lightly) because Kal could be so oblivious - a word that is used to describe Shallan (as Veil) in a storming chapter title for her. And Kal seems particularly oblivious when it comes to women. He isn't lacking in empathy per se, it is just that he often rushes into assumptions (he is still rather young) before considering his words. He isn't actually that prejudicial - he lets women join the windrunners without too much issue, has no problems with Drehy being gay (though he frames his words exceedingly poorly about it), never seems to question the arrival of female radiants - or at least accepts them quickly, he doesn't judge Teft for being an addict and has even started to accept Elokhar and other lighteyes. However, in this scene when he and Shallan are discussing her ability to hide her pain away, I agree that Kaladin was reacting to his own pain - he was, understandably, thinking about his own situation. Remember he froze - literally the first time he'd completely lost it in battle for years - because he couldn't shut down his feelings. He watched his friends/protectees die because he couldn't function. Kal takes these things very badly. He tends to see himself as to blame for everything and in some ways, he is a little to blame here. I mean - not really because the fight wasnt his fault, but he led both groups of people to be in a position where they ended up fighting each other and he couldn't stop them. Its one of the things he still has to learn regarding leadership. Can anyone blame him for wanting to have, even just for a few moments, the ability to suppress that memory and pretend everything is alright? Shallan, perhaps, should have realised that - although I don't blame her for not given her own situation. It is just one of those terrible misunderstandings that occasionally happen that can drive people apart. Will it be resolved? Perhaps - it is important, I think, that these two have a good working relationship. I'll be sorry to lose Shalladin because I still think they are better suited in the long run, but if it doesn't go that way, at least they should be friends. There are issues that likely need to be dealt with before that can happen Helaran's death - No, I do not believe we've dealt with that yet - its just been left at the back of Shallan's mind to fester Kaladin needs to progress and understand that hiding pain away is not the answer and that will likely happen as a consequence of him swearing the 4th Ideal Kaladin needs to be a little more empathetic, well, no, he has empathy, perhaps he needs to stop assuming things so quickly. Shallan,obviously, needs to progress as well. This is not likely to impact their relationship on a superficial level but does need to happen if she is to form lasting and fully developed relationships (not just romantic but all relationships). This will probably take longer - she's so broken at the moment. Shallan needs to understand why she chose Adolin. It isn't enough to choose someone because they feel safe. Sure its important to feel safe with your SO but it shouldnt be the only feeling. Her other emotions seem mostly related to passion rather than love. Choosing Adolin is not inherently wrong but I feel she's chosen him for the wrong reasons. That's not fair - mostly not fair to Adolin. I think its also important to remember how quickly this is all happening. Dalinar only started getting the visions 6 months ago. Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains approximately 2 months ago by my reckoning (she arrives just after Szeth attacks Dalinar). The whole of Oathbringer likely lasts only about 1 month. As a point, a month in Roshar is 50 days (each day being shorter than 1 Earth day)and there are 10 months in the year = 500 days per year and 1000 per full cycle (from lightday in the weeping to the next 2 years later). Mistakes will occur, both tactically and emotionally as they are running at full speed all the time.

Well I'd be inclined to go with harm over help because he seems to be identifying Veil as separate - but we have limited info on that and Shallan is likely an unreliable narrator anyway. If, however, he helps her find more adaptive ways of coping then he'll be helping. With regards to Shallan starting on her recovery, I'd say she is - in a way, Pattern is her therapist, helping her identify truths of her past and come to terms with them. Unfortunately, his lack of understanding of humans and human behaviour means he can only be somewhat helpful. Shallan really needs to identify that she is not to blame for what her mother tried to do - and any other damage her parents may have done before that - and accept that it wsn't her fault that her father turned into a monster too. I mean she needs to take responsibility for killing him, obviously, but his descent into the person he became after his 1st wife's death was not Shallan's fault and I don't think she realises that yet. The issue is that sometimes these things get worse before they get better - especially if additional stresses are placed on a person once they've started the process. That's definitely happened to Shallan. She might have been ok if the WInd's Pleasure hadnt sunk and Jasnah had made it to the Shattered Plains with her, but the stress of the shipwreck and the threats against her during her trip to the Shattered Plains and then dealing with the GhostBloods are huge stressors - and thats before we even have her deal with Unmade. After recovering Pattern and speaking truths about both her father and mother's deaths - both things that she is still coming to terms with - its hardly surprising she's doing this - she's just shifted from the black-out/lapses she had as a child into full on secondaries.

You mean even faster? I mean given that he's been published for 12 years and had more than 20 books published in that time. *cough cough George RR Martin and Patrick Rothfuss *cough. So I just want to go back to the DID thing a little bit and add some depth after some further reading. I have put loads of info in the spoiler below but please be warned, DID is really nasty as a condition, so if you are in any way worried about the content which relates in part to causes, triggers and treatment, I'd recommend you don't read it.

Welcome @Elsvette Mintyfresh. I'm pretty new too I agree with basically everything you said in your post. I recently re-read the section where Shallan and Wit tell the story of the girl who looked up together and Wit says something very important; "Accept the pain but don't accept that you deserve it" (chapter 82, italics in book) I feel this has a ring of a sensible truth for Shallan to tell herself but she hasn't managed it yet. Later, she goes on to fight with the Heart of the Revel and fails to drive it away. While she is communicating with it she hears Wit's voice and he says: "You're all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?" (Chapter 84) Shallan tells him that her personas rule her and although that is a truth it isnt something that leads her to greater self-awareness so wont be a truth that will help her progress. A better one would be to accept that all her personas are her and that she became a radiant because she broke but that she didn't deserve to be broken. There is likely a better way to phrase it. I'm pretty sure we won;t see Shallan progress in book 4 - she is the furthest on the path already I believe and she needs so much work done before she can accept it. It is a common feeling amongst victims of abuse that they did something to deserve the damage done to them and it can take years (indeed many never manage it) to get over that and accept that they were in fact blameless all along. I

Sorry I should have been more specific - i meant exactly this. If I have to read more nauseating stuff I might just let my SO read it and redact the soppiness for me before I read it! Or have a shower after each icky moment. Side note, am about 2/3rds way through second read now and the kaladin/shallan stuff is literally everywhere. I am tempted to type out the book without them and see how long it is!

Great catch, I totally missed that - I was wondering who it might be and didnt even consider Tien as a possible option. He might have been "broken" by his time in the army and certainly saw the beauty in things that others couldn't see. I also agree that whilst I still feel Kaladin/Shallan is a better fit, I am not anti-Adolin/Shallan - but I dont think the current situation is good for Adolin or Shallan. If Shallan can get over her issues then I am happy to get behind them!

Doesn't she breathe out to complete a lightweaving usually? Has she created a "perfect wife Shallan by mistake?

Did I mention that I'm obsessive?

Good catch from Tyn's lines - I'd forgotten that one. So in theory this could foreshadow Shallan's death more than anything else but obviously leads to potential upset it her relationship with Adolin. I'm going to have to read over my essay and see what else comes out of that. Then I'll have to rewrite it with the OB stuff in it. Good thing I dont have a job, or degree to finish... oh wait.... On another note with Tyn's lines, I see why you referenced it regarding the preview chapters - Shallan constantly tries to hide Veil from Adolin - and he only finds out by accident. I don't think she'd have told him otherwise. Does he even know about Radiant? I agree with @Harbour as well regarding that the triangle element is finished. I think the classic triangle is the choice element with 2 people fighting over one person they both want. That didnt happen here anyway - Kaladin never really fought and Adolin was prepared to step away. Shallan is the one fighting - mostly with herself and that is the thing that seems likely to continue. She needs to find out who she really is before she can decide who her life partner should be. That may be Adolin after all, but until she knows who she is, how can we really be sure? I just can't see how all the foreshadowing (arriving at Shattered Plains in same caravan, meeting outside the warcamps, the whole boots thing, understanding each other on an intellectual level, the entire chasm sequence, Shallan's thoughts on how Kaladin resembles rocks/wind etc whilst adolin is a fine sculpture - nb she chose natural history over art as her calling, let alone the more heavy handed stuff in OB) could really lead to absolutely nothing. If you cut it out, both WoR and OB probably shorten by a fifth of their current size. That means we could have had other stuff in there instead! Perhaps more Renarin or Jasnah - which would have been amazing. If it is just padding I might decide go full Odium.

Honestly? I'm a bit Shallan-ish myself so probably not that healthily! I felt really low at the end of OB also mostly about Kaladin but I'm slowly getting over it. My re-read has helped a bit because I can see the hope that it still has. I also look at the final scene where he is not berating himself as much as he usually would have done which is definitely a good thing. Finally, I mentally started mentally mapping a fan-fic out where he finds someone decent, crazy but not lying-type crazy and who shares his love of healing - probably a less Lift-like edgedancer type person - still fun but not so.... well Lift (I love Lift but Kaladin needs someone who can actually be understood etc). I probably won't write it but at the end of OB I could see him starting to get to a point where he could have a sensible relationship with someone that doesnt make him go mad trying to divide himself as a protector amongst everyone he has ever loved. That helped me massively because I couldnt have done that at the end of WoR because he still had such a tendency to beat himself up for stuff he wasnt to blame for. He seems to be getting better at that and it will result in him managing to get to the 4th ideal of the WR. Kaladin really needs an equal he can talk to - not someone he feels responsible for and I can now see him managing that. Not that he definitely will find that kind of relationship, just that he now is starting to show that he could actually manage it.

To be fair, that is your opinion and it may well be right. I'm honestly not convinced. He is really good at foreshadowing. In WoR when Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin all get in the carriage ride before going to the menagerie Wit says something to Adolin about "Here comes your almost-but-not-quite bride". This is exactly the kind of thing Sanderson puts in to foreshadow things. Indeed, it is layered because at that point, Adolin and Shallan are still in the causal but it also foreshadows the element that Adolin is only really married to a part of Shallan - he certainly doesnt seem to see Veil (as SNLC pointed out) as his wife but more of a drinking buddy. As an additional thought - the triangle may be over but that doesnt mean there wont be relationship development.

I totally missed this but you are right. That is concerning - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Not that Adolin's intentions regarding Sadeas were good, but it was at least something that was understandable though not something anyone would condone. I know what you mean but I am not prepared to dispute his skill as a writer on the basis of a storyline that is not certainly completed yet. I remember feeling off about the 2nd Mistborn book but having it work much better when I'd read the 3rd. This is the middle book of the 5 book arc. When the first 5 books are completed I'm assuming most of these character arcs will be completed (because the back 5 are going to be some time after the front 5). If the arcs of the relationships stay where they are then I'll agree with you, but Adolin has had very little evolution as a character - he maybe is less of a cad when it comes to eyeing up other women, but just because we haven't seen it as much as we did in WoR doesn't mean its gone yet. I'm assuming he'll evolve over the next 2 books as the major changes in his life are actually coming now - becoming Highprince and getting married. That means his relationships with everyone will evolve.

Oh dear, that's not exactly encouraging, given the way Anakin ends up going...... Although given the whole Dalinar being essentially an aspect of Honour now if Adolin does go dark it also sets up a cheesy "I am you're father" moment.... *goes away to try and pretend I didn't just think that* BS is so much better than that so he is not going to do that to us.

100% although as you say neither Shallan nor Adolin seem to recognise this. And, again as you say, he doesn't understand Veil and that means he cannot understand Shallan. Even if he did understand the individual personas perfectly I'm not sure he'd understand Shallan because he still wouldnt really understand how they fit together because he doesnt know/understand what caused them. As a side note, its not clear to me that Adolin is definitely going Radiant. From Dalinar's flashbacks he seems to have had a pretty decent upbringing, despite his mother's death (which he presumably doesnt actually know the truth about anyway) and his father's alcoholism because he had some stability from his mum prior to her death and from his aunt and uncle. Anyway he knew his father loved him - something Renarin could not actually have been sure of, at least as a kid (which is presumably when he bonded - he's had his "epilepsy" since then anyway). This means we can't really be sure that he is "broken" indeed he is probably the only sane PoV character we get. I am more concerned that his murder of Sadeas, as a crime of passion, could be something that leads us to wonder if he's a potential for Odium? Shallan's situation could very well lead him down that route

Exactly this, its straight up wrong. Its great to be friends with your SO as well as more, but you shouldn't be more friends than anything else. Most importantly, Adolin "wouldn't" be intimate with her - like he could tell when Veil was in play and not only did he recognise that she wasn't interested in him, but he presumably wasn't interested in her either. Great, what a fantastic basis for a relationship. And Veil has no specific need to tell Adolin beyond Shallan wanting her to. When she is Veil, perhaps she won't tell him after all, although I suspect she will - it builds conflict in the relationship for one thing. This is where I feel that Shallan's eventual progression as a Radiant has to be with resuming a full identity rather than using somewhat 2D personas that fit each aspect of her life. Most people don't have the option of choosing what situations to face so they just have to cope. Shallan avoids unpleasant situations by retreating to a persona so she doesnt have to deal with things, at some point she'll have to acknowledge this if she wants to progress to a "full" Radiant.

I agree completely. I went back and re-read some of the interactions between Adolin and Shallan after she chose him. They are so mushy and frankly nauseating! Now they havent actually known each other that long so I suppose it is reasonable - but Shallan describes it as love and honestly (imo) it isn't. It is lust/passion/crush type feelings. They are perfectly normal and natural for the type of relationship they are having but it isnt love (yet). This actually echoes what Kaladin says about Shallan. Of course he wasn't in love with her - he hadn't known her long enough. Love doesn't work like that. Anyway to give some quotes about what I'm getting at (from chapter 122 - I'm on Kindle so don't have page numbers, sorry) Ugh, sickening. Anyway, there are other moments where she feels "giddy" and "silly". Although she does say "something had changed. Something incredible" which is at least a little heartening. But we still see a huge amount of focus on the superficial aspects. Anyway I don't blame Teshav for rolling her eyes at them. Now I hope they grow together but given my other thoughts on the matter I am genuinely worried about it. Love takes time and understanding. As far as I know, Adolin doesn't know anything about Shallan's personal history. Does he even know her father is dead? She told Dalinar so presumably Adolin does, but it seems unlikely that she told him that she killed her dad, let alone that she also killed her mother. We don't know if she goes ahead and tells him of the Ghostbloods, though it's implied she might well have done by the time the next book comes out. That's a huge amount of personal history that I for one would like to know before I committed to someone. Hell of a wedding present otherwise.... Anyway, my point is that it is normal early in a relationship to feel the way Shallan feels, but it seems to be much more like infatuation than love. Psychology Today did an article on this ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201404/20-questions-will-tell-you-if-its-love) now obviously Psychology struggles to model human behaviour because of its complexity, and no individual fits the model perfectly anyhow because it averages human behaviours from many individuals, so assume some flaws in this, but its the best model I could find that was easy to interpret for a lay-person. That being said, I (of course) tried to score Shallan using this at the end of the book based on how I interpreted how she was feeling and came up with some figures. In set 1 (infatuation) she scores somewhere in the low-mid forties. On attachment, she scores a little higher, low-mid 50s. Based on my own interpretation (and I'd be interested in knowing how others score her) I would suggest she most aligns with the group who "were not yet in a romantic relationship with the object of their desire". This suggests that she has not yet formed a full attachment to Adolin but this does not mean that she won't in the future. Attachment grows over time and is the best indicator for happiness in the long term. Higher infatuation scores are aligned with unhappiness. Just as a comparison, I'm in a long term happy cohabiting relationship. I score only 14 on infatuation and 62 on attachment. Whilst I am regularly silly with my SO, he doesnt make me feel silly, we act in a silly manner together and feel perfectly sensible when we do it. I'm nearer Jasnah's age than Shallan's though.

So I feel the oath might lean towards the prayer that goes: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Perhaps something like: I will protect the people I can, accept that I cannot protect them all, and understand that true leaders know the difference. I see this as relating directly to Lirin's statements regarding Kaladin growing calluses. It is desperately important to care, but to do so in a somewhat disconnected fashion, particularly when working to heal others. Kaladin, despite his obvious talents as a soldier is a natural healer. He wants to help people so badly it consumes him. Leadership though, is different. The 'calculus of war' requires that hard decisions are made. Indeed Kaladin already makes them in some ways and will only have to go further. He wants to protect Bridge Four. This is a good thing - he should care for his men. BUT he needs them to fight to protect those who cannot protect themselves. So, there is only one sensible option and that is to have them fight with as much training and support as possible as well as good leadership decisions, so others without that training and support don't have to. Kaladin can't be everywhere, or do everythng. He needs to learn to let go of some of his self-blame and understand that responsibility and blame are not the same thing. He is responsible for the men he leads, but if he doesnt let them fight, he will be to blame for allowing deaths to occur that he could have prevented. Its about balance and choice.

Agreed. She actively pushed the thought away so I'm pretty sure this hasn't been addressed yet. The arrival of her 3 other brothers will likely result in her addressing this issue more now because they will be constant reminders, and anyway it seems likely Helaran will be brought up at some point. That aside, Mraize sent her a letter with tidbits of details about Helaran which she should follow-up on, not-the-least because if she genuinely wants to understand the political scheming that is going on behind the scenes (Ghostbloods, Sons of Honour, Diagramists) she needs to get in with at least one of these groups. This will definitely cause her to have to confront Helaran's life choices, and thus his death, at some point. My guess, she isn't going to like some of those revelations. As a quick side note, do we know when she finds out in relation to her having trouble with identifying who she really is? Could this suppression actually be the trigger for her descending into her dissociative state? She didnt seem to be in one in WoR? (DID brief synopsis of diagnostic criteria from DSM-5: https://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/dissociative-identity-disorder/dissociative-identity-disorder-did-dsm-5-criteria/) I suspect there is a trigger, perhaps a small one. I'm already halfway through my second readthrough so I've missed it if indeed it is there. I'll look through on my third, but if someone has evidence one way or the other I'd be most grateful.

Hello all! Long time reader but first time poster here I'm so glad this thread started. Since finishing OB I've been obsessing over various aspects of the story but particularly this one. Now I was a Shalladin shipper so bear with me given my previous preferences, but having read the book over the course of a single day, finishing at 2am, I was very tired and honestly felt really low at the conclusion, and this element of the story was definitely the cause. I am sure with a re-read, more time, and hopefully some discussion here I'll resolve some of my issues! So in advance, thank-you for your thoughts and feelings. Also, this is long so I'm really sorry. So an an obsessive fan, I'd actually written out my thoughts on the progression of the Shadolin/Shalladin relationships as they stood at the end of WoR. I didn't have a specific preference before I wrote that essay but by the end, as many people have pointed out, I was sure there was so much more foreshadowing for Shalladin that I firmly ended up in that camp. To be clear, I like Adolin. He's awesome. But unlike some, my major concern for Shadolin is that the relationship is not only not ideal for Shallan, it's not good, and may even be destructive to Adolin. I don't want him to go dark and I am genuinely worried that he will now. Think about it this way, he knows or at least should, that a part of Shallan (ie Veil) doesn't love him. Yikes. If my SO told me that I'd be devastated. Hell, if I felt that way about my SO I'd be devastated. This doesn't make Shalladin any better of course, I'm not clear on each of Shallan's persona's feelings towards Kaladin. Obviously Veil likes him. Radiant seems the pragmatic one and prefers Adolin for reasons aside from emotion (ie he's a highprince, can teach her to use PatternBlade, enables her etc). But the Shallan persona (who I'm not convinced is any more "real" than the others) seems to like them both in different ways, BUT as of end of WoR she actually compares them, and Kaladin wins out, almost despite herself. I don't think Shallan should have married Adolin at this point, but, importantly, I am not inherently upset she didn't choose Kaladin - he simply doesn't need the drama she will bring by being so broken. That said, I don't think the whole thing is concluded. Lets look at the pre-wedding scene; Shallan wears sapphire (unusual - we know the traditional Vorin colour for weddings is red). Now I am probably reading too much into this, but sapphire is the colour of the Windrunners. She could have worn any other colour. Why sapphire? I trust Sanderson not to put these kind of things in at random (although if Shalladin doesnt get any progression I may change my mind on this given the amount of work was put into it) and he specifically chose the colours for the different orders, something he took time over when researching. He could easily have made her wear the traditional red, which would have been appropriate for a Lightweaver, or Kholin Blue as she's joining the Kholin house. But no, he chooses, and makes a point of telling us, its sapphire. Not even just blue. Kaladin sends her the boots, the perfect choice to make her feel less nervous and relieve some of the tension. Its been a long running theme between them, both in banter but also in fairly subtle subtext. No other gift does this for her. Pattern says "Mmm... This is a good you, Shallan." (emphasis mine). Not 'this is good for you' or 'this is you, Shallan'. Pattern likes lies, is this image of her a lie? It isn't clear, but he seems to know this is simply another version. Shallan brings out Veil and Radiant. She stills identifies as all three in some way. They haven't gone away, they still linger as options for her. Like many others here, I'm not convinced this is a good thing. Veil specifically says "He's good for you" (emphasis mine) - notice it is good for the Shallan persona, not for "us". She goes on to say "We could do far worse". Well that's flattering. About a third of Shallan thinks she could could do worse than a storming prince....? Even Radiant implicitly agrees as she says "But not much better" in reply - well that implies there is something better. What does that "pointed look" mean. The surface thought is that she's trying to stop Veil from pushing Shallan out of this union but there is a second reading - The best thing for Shallan, both as a person, and in terms of her progressing as a radiant would be to accept all three of these personas as aspects of her full personality, this is not good for Radiant or Veil as they would lose their individuality and autonomy. Adolin essentially allows Shallan to feel safe, and allows Veil and Radiant to keep existing. Great..... Finally, we get a letter from Mraize. Mraize has always thought "Veil" was the real person here, and refers to her as little knife - the term he uses for Shallan/Veil. This reinforces the idea that this is the real her. She pushes the thought away and goes to celebrate "being herself" . Basically I am not convinced this is entirely true. I mean, how much of Shallan's truth here can be trusted. Ok some final thoughts. Shallan is a level 4 Lightweaver. She still has one more truth to reveal to become a full Radiant. This is likely to happen either towards the end of book 4, or (more likely imo) in book 5. Now this could be regarding how she became a surgebinder (presumably her family was pretty nasty even before she killed her mother) but that seems to have been implicitly understood at this point. My feeling is that she needs to accept that she is all of these women and stop hiding parts of herself away - she needs to accept her flaws etc and that she is not infallible. Interestingly, accepting the truth of situations seems to be part of all of the orders. Kaladin struggles to accept the truth that he cannot save everyone - indeed he can't progress because of it. Truth, or at least the subjective aspect of it, is important in the cognitive realm, although the Cryptics seem to take this to an extreme. Granted, we only have evidence for the WR and LW but accepting the truth of your own flaws and accepting that failure is a part of your journey is incredibly important for all people, not just Radiants. Shallan has not accepted this - so she created personas to overcome the inherent weaknesses of her personality. It seems like a strength but overall true strength comes from accepting that you cannot be perfect. So do I still ship Shalladin? Well, kinda, I cant believe that the huge amount of foreshadowing we got will lead to no payoff whatsoever, but if Sanderson chooses not to go there, in some ways I'll be relieved. I want Kaladin to be happy but after OB I'm not convinced that Shallan will make him so, particularly in her current state. Do I ship Shadolin? Well no, but not because I don't want Adolin to be happy - I do. I just think Shallan might actually make him unhappy and I don't think Adolin deserves that.