PhineasGage

I'm sorry to say it but I think that by the time Kaladin swears the 5th ideal he'll probably have to review this opinion. We put soldiers on the frontline of a battle so that civilians don't have to fight. I think everything possible should be done to help the heralds. They need to heal and they are making a mess of things on their own. Ideas like having other groups take their place may be an option in re-binding Odium, I don't know. They certainly have knowledge and with help might be useful in all kinds of ways. But if the humans are losing, and they only have 9 people available to them to actually make a huge difference, then don't they have to send them back? Is letting the entire world of Roshar burn really better? Because eventually Odium will turn on the Fused/singers. He's not going to let them live either if he wins. What about all the other cosmere worlds? I know Jasnah may not know about those, but we do. Are we ok with letting Odium continue on his rampage? Why thank you - and thanks for that quote! It does sound like Amaram had to be convinced. I suspect it was a major turning point, but I bet he'd made similar smaller errors of judgement "for the greater good" as before. Anyway, how do you feel about Jasnah now? Have I convinced you? (jk I don't actually expect to have done!)

I agree with much of your post, though I do want to point out that Shallan's dissociation is simply the latest symptom of her fragile self-image. It's not that it is different, it is that she has worsening symptomatology in a condition that is made up of layers and layers of past hurts. The latest hurt (the fight with Reshephir) was too soon after the previous one (her admitting she killed her mother) so she splintered. People with Shallan's history don't always dissociate, indeed many won't. It depends how many and how quickly the blows come. Regarding the bit I put in bold in the quote. Wit is very clear about this (and it fits in with what a therapist would advise IRL) - Shallan does need to accept the pain. He says "It is alright to hurt". Hurting doesn't make Shallan weak, facing it makes her strong. She also has to accept that she didn't deserve to be hurt. How can she say she doesn't deserve the damage done to her if he won't accept that damage was done? I feel the rest of what you wrote lines up with this so perhaps that is what you were aiming at?

Just bear in mind that she does still have more data than everyone else at that meeting because she got it from Wit after the epilogue of WoR. She may know enough to think this is a sensible course of action. That said - as i said in my very long post above, I agree with you that I don't think it is a sensible starting point. It might, however, be necessary eventually.

Well we know at least some spren started looking around Gavilar's assassination - Jasnah bonds Ivory then. I think it is also implied that Syl went through to the physical realm then - she knew Kal as a kid because she remembers bits about it. We also know that Pattern bonded Shallan at least 6 years ago because she killed her mother with a shardblade. I think that's long enough to go over the continent of Roshar. Granted we don't know all the spren were doing this, but 3 out of 10 is pretty good. On top of that the skybreakers are still bonding and the bondsmiths spren are unique, plus the stormfather was required to find people who could hear his visions - ie protobondsmiths. So of the 8 orders who had the freedom to search or not we know 3 of them were looking 6 years ago. We don;t know that the others weren't looking though, we only know that the lightspren weren't looking for humans. Eshonai was clearly kinda bonded to Timbre so the lightspren may have been trying to bond the Parshendi for ages but because of the war the Parshendi weren't letting themselves get bonded by random spren in the same way as they used to. Perhaps the cultivationspren started late, but it seems more than coincidence that 3 other spren types started looking and bonding at the same time. I think this is a bit of a leap. Kaladin is .likely inspiring his men to fit the ideals so it draws the honorspren. Not that they wont look elsewhere. And It doesn't fit with cryptics looking simultaneously at Shallan and Elhokar who were hundreds of miles apart. (nb he sees them in mirrors on the shattered plains when she is in Kharbranth).

Interesting way of looking at it - I'd read it a little differently - Wit uses the emotions of others around him in his OB epilogue to create a mask/illusion so he can sneak through the palace gardens. This may because he uses Yolen magic, but I think that it is as likely that it is because he has more understanding of the power than Shallan. Shallan definitely uses herself to fuel her lightweaving. Anyway, my point is that Wit doesn't split in any way - he reflects others. This is an interesting comparison to Shallan who says that she puts others into her drawings but doesn't do that with her lightweaving imo. I agree that Veil or Radiants can be acts, but it isn't about being in control of them, it is that there shouldn't be anything to control in the first place. This is important because Shallan's illusions likely use a blend of illumination and transformation - she soulcasts to make her illusions more real. In her case she uses her own soul/memories/experience and this hurts. A lot. She is essentially soulcasting herself over and over again - who knows what kind of damage that could be doing. Wit, in comparison uses his illumination more like a lens or a mirror - he uses the power of someone else's pain and focuses it through his magic to create illusions. That pain probably doesn't touch his soul and it isn't being taken or changed from the person whose situation he is using. A magnifying glass is rarely burned by having sunlight go through it after all. Though it can burn other things and you can focus it differently to get different results. I think this is what Shallan should be aiming at. In terms of whether I think Shallan is following Wit's advice, I have talked about it elsewhere and don't want to repeat my arguments in full - most of the people who have posted here have read those arguments afaik so it seems a bit redundant. Suffice to say, I think she is trying, but it is hard to follow advice that you don't really understand. I don't think she is anywhere close however. Regarding her split I think some maths will come in handy here: 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 Here the complete Shallan is 6. The Shallan persona (let's call her pseudoShallan) is 3, the Veil persona is 2, and the Radiant persona is 1. If we want to get to the real Shallan we need all three of 1, 2 and 3. If we only take a couple of them, we don't get to 6. This means that while pseudoShallan is a big part of getting us to 6, she isn't enough. We still need 2 and 1. PseudoShallan is a good approximation of Shallan proper, especially to people who aren't looking for number 6, because she can fit in and do the things Shallan proper can do in the vast majority of situations where she finds herself. The problem comes when she finds herself in a situation that she can't handle (like holding PatternBlade and practicing) so she switches personas. A person without a split doesn't have to do this because they have access to their full arsenal of personality traits all at once and are able to use multiple coping mechansims and choose the best depending on the situation. A fractured personality like Shallan's has much more limited options - switch, or black out are her only two most of the time.

He "wasn't allowed to relinquish his blade" (WoR interludes iirc) as part of his sentence as a Truthless. That implies he was given it specifically, I doubt they'd have let him choose if he was being condemned.

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for that. In that case probably there was only one Edgedancer around and no others were sent through as a matter of course. That would still mean that they decided not to look for the best Roshar could offer them, but the best Iri could offer them? Doesn't that seem.... risky?

Hi @Toaster Retribution, I would like to primarily aim my thoughts at you as you have raised specific questions, and whilst I share many thoughts on Jasnah with others who have posted, I think there may be a few things I can add to hopefully help you see why Jasnah might be popular. I should probably point out that I do relate to her. I also tend towards the analytical rather than the emotional, and I am also an atheist. So in plenty of ways I can see myself in her. A better version of myself most of the time, but it makes me really cringe when her flaws come out. So the first thing I wanted to say regarding Jasnah is that we only really see her through Shallan's eyes for quite a long time and Shallan is a very unreliable narrator. Her emotions colour everything she sees. Shallan's idea of Jasnah is pretty unrealistic - indeed iirc she thinks that she views Jasnah almost as divine - something she herself realises is ironic given Jasnah's lack of faith. It means that the reader is tempted to either side with Shallan or rail against it. Both are reasonable responses. It just happened that more people followed Shallan, than fought the instinct to do so. You are obviously in the latter group. There is something to be said for bucking the trend Now looking at your points, as has been pointed out by @hoiditthroughthegrapevine earlier, Jasnah went through a period of "lunacy" during her childhood (Dalinar flashback) and that she herself seems to think no-one else remembers the episode as she did. We know how the insane are treated on Roshar, and it isn't pretty. Chances are Jasnah, despite being a kid, was locked up in a darkened room with little or no interaction with outsiders. I'm feeling a link with Ophelia in Hamlet here. Jasnah, though, unlike Ophelia, comes out of whatever the episode is (and we will hopefully get an understanding by her flashback book if not before) and seems to be normal. That said, I think she has an underlying concern that she is actually mad. Logically she knows she shouldn't be, but I think she is genuinely worried that perhaps she is and all this is but a madness-induced dream. Her cleverness leads to an isolation that likely would reinforce it. She also felt betrayed by loved ones, and thus pushed people away. Its even better if they never get close in the first place. So, whilst I don't think Kaladin meant to be that insulting, I am not surprised Jasnah completely lost it for a moment. In my first read, I was shocked, but I found it much less jarring when I re-read it and realised that she is very vulnerable to that kind of idea. It doesn't condone her actions, but it makes them understandable, and to me at least, relatable. I think Dalinar steps in and she shuts up quickly as much because they know about her past as because the conversation was going off track. On the second point, I actually side with Jasnah on this one. Shallan is wasting herself until Jasnah arrives. She shows up late to meetings, she doodles, and she ignores what's going on around her rather than partake and attempt to learn so that she could be helpful in future. It's irritating. Shallan had spent so long trying to get in with the Kholins and trying to do the right thing regarding getting to Urithiru etc and now she's throwing it all away. I don't blame Shallan - she's having trouble reconciling herself to her latest truth, but at the same time, Jasnah comes back and see Shallan wasting her potential. It is incredibly annoying to watch someone do that. Jasnah can't know exactly what Shallan is going through and presumably has no idea that Shallan killed her parents etc. She also won't know that Shallan has only recently progressed as a KR. Whilst Jasnah's treatment of Shallan is strict, actually trying to make Shallan take notes will force her to actually learn something without being expected to contribute given that she doesn't know much of value to the political discussions yet. How else is she supposed to learn it if not through going to the meetings? Why not make her learn it through being a scribe. Jasnah would likely do it herself if Shallan didn't need a reason to focus. Interestingly she thinks Shallan needs more challenges rather than structure later, but I actually think she needs both. And anyway, if Shallan can't concentrate for long enough to take notes for a meeting then making her scribe is a challenge. She's engaged to Adolin, she'll have to do it for him once they are married. I agree that these 2 conversations parallel each other but I viewed it that both Shallan and Jasnah respond with aggression (albeit in a verbal form) when they feel threatened. I think something about Amaram makes Jasnah feel threatened. I am not sure what and I don't think we've got enough evidence to get more than a vague feeling about it. It just strikes me that her reaction to him on the night of Gavilar's death, whilst cool, was much less vociferous than her attack on him in OB. And given that she might even have agreed with his moral philosoply regarding the way he dealt with the Shardblade/Kaladin thing, I don't think it is that that is the cause of it. Regarding the bold part - I think this will somehow relate to Kaladin's 4th ideal. On the rest; I actually agree with your several points that Amaram is not so black and white as we sometimes perceive him. I think the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is how I would describe Amaram's life. It is sad. I think he was a true believer and thought that sacrifice was necessary to bring back the importance of his faith to a people he considered to be struggling without it. That said, I think at some point he made a small decision "for the greater good" that he struggled with, but ended up saying it had been necessary. He then used that idea to reconcile himself to doing more and more despicable things. I don't think he started at killing Kaladin's men and I don't think it happened overnight. Nor do I think he realised what was happening as he was going along. It wasn't until the very end that he realised, and by then it was too late. I actually see this as being the reason he ended up on Odium's side. I think until that point he'd hidden away his flaws, rationalised his decisions, surrounded himself with the idea of Honour so thoroughly that he didn't even realise how far he'd gone. Then I think Odium stripped it away and he couldn't handle the sudden onslaught of pain/guilt. So he buckled. Perhaps, if he had been given time to face his failings, the way Dalinar did, he would have managed to stand firm, but then, he would have had to face his situation earlier and he would not have been the effective man he'd been up until the end of OB. Strength isn't always about standing firm about your positions, it can be about admitting your mistakes and learning from them. Dalinar did this, and I think Jasnah can do this (tho we haven't seen her do so under such difficult circumstances of course). To me, Taravangian is a bit more difficult. I think he too started on the right lines - he wanted to save the world, its hardly a bad thing! . I personally think that the "real" Taravangian was pretty clever (not genius but above average) and understood the major implications of a real desolation. He knew about Gavilar's visions and may have also been a Son of Honor iirc. He was definitely there when Gavilar showed the spheres anyway. The boon/curse thing with the Nighwatcher makes him unreliable however because without compassion, how can you logically view anything? As I said, I'm an unbeliever myself, and I don't believe in universal morality, but if you are thinking about how to act in people's best interest, then you have to have compassion for them because otherwise you'll end up locking them up for their own safety or worse. Thus, I don't view Taravangian as "evil" per se because I simply don't think he has the control to be evil. He is more like a flood or a drought - we need water, and we need sunshine, but too much of either makes it impossible to grow and flourish. I do therefore see him as quite a good foil to Jasnah because she doesn't fluctuate. She tempers her compassion with logic (look at the thieves incident or her wanting to kill the heralds) - but also tempers her logic with compassion (Renarin). I think she is geting better at being compassionate though and hopefully will realise that her actions, whilst not necessarily completely wrong are not always the best option because people are unpredictable creatures and we generally respond better to kindness than cruelty. I must say though that I found her philosphical arguments about both the thieves deaths and the idea of killing the Heralds wrong purely on a logical basis. The best way to handle thieves is to sort out poverty that drives people to steal. And you can't just kill people for stealing - I doubt Kharbranth has the death penalty for most crimes. Those men might have done unspeakable to things to Jasnah and Shallan if Jasnah hadn't killed them, but what if they hadn't? Presumably Jasnah can't see the future. I could go on about the logical flaws here but I won't. Regarding the Heralds, I agree with Jasnah that killing them might be the only answer - especially as she definitely has more information on what is going on than most (she knew about the cause of the Recreance from Wit for example). However, she isn't all knowing, and whilst finding the Heralds, and making sure the enemy doesn't have them is a perfectly logical thing to do - indeed you can ask them questions to find out more, and killing them might have unintended side effects that could make things worse. I don't think she lacks compassion in either case however, it is perhaps that I feel that with a bit more compassion she might take an extra logical step. This is something I think we are seeing and I suspect it is linked to her oaths. Elsecallers seem to have been a more scholar-type order in general but you can't go through life's journey without using the information you've learned. Oh that's really interesting. I saw some things said about that during the US election (I'm not American and I don't want to start talking about the politics) but Clinton always seemed to get called cold during that. Do you have any recommendations on books/articles to read on the broader subject? Are there parallels with male archetypes? Also, it might be an interesting (if possibly heated) debate for a thread on here. As a point, I doubt very much if Amaram has killed more people than that. If he did, it was likely after Kaladin's men. He wasn't all bad as I said, he seemed to take good care of his servants for example. He was downright fatherly to that maid in his household in WoR. Jasnah seems more likely to kill in self-defence though - even if that is a situation that she allows herself to get into (ie Kharbranth thieves). This makes it rather less awful because ultimately she doesn't make people choose to go up against her. They choose, then they lose. I'm a storming poet This is from tWoK iirc? Does anyone have the quote - I can't find it! I agree. I think what made the KR a strong and lasting organisation (it did last circa 2000years) is that when put together the orders filled in the flaws of the others and made them all greater than the sum of their parts. I actually think the Jasnah/Kaladin spoke volumes about this. Once they get to know each other I could see them arguing against each other in meetings (because they come at ideas from different angles) but afterwards walk out and be completely relaxed and friendly rather than taking it personally. This will be easier for them because Kaladin is clever so Jasnah won't get so annoyed with him as she might with someone less intelligent. But no, I'm not here to ship Jasnadin.... Regarding that you "don't get the hype" I know exactly where you are coming from. I am pretty ambivalent about Adolin. I know loads of people like him though. I have occasionally struggled to reconcile myself to it. It doesn't worry me unduly that you kill your friends for shardblades - As you feel you wouldn't like Jasnah IRL, and I feel I am a stupider form of Jasnah IRL presumably we wouldn't be friends. Not my problem Very well put @Dreamstorm (as always). I agree that having more PoVs will definitely let us see Jasnah's feet of clay and that will make people able to judge her more clearly and consensus will be better. I think this is true of most of the characters. There are always going to be outliers but I think Shallan, Dalinar and Kaladin are probably as close to being universally popular with the fandom as is possible. Side characters are more at risk of being polarising because they have less screentime and we therefore project onto them more because we have less idea of their true motivations.

@maxal I was wondering if you could explain to me the idea of the "honor- oriented" spren and "cultivation oriented" spren. I get that you've subcategorised them this way and you've got a framework for it but I didn't know we knew this was a definite thing. Is there a WoB or something I've missed on the matter? The reason I'm asking is because I'm surprised you put the Stormfather (who, iirc, is essentially Honor's spren -he calls himself this in WoR) in the Cultivation camp and I don't understand why. Isn't the Nahel bond intrinsically a thing of Honor? On the note of why the cultivationspren didn't pick Adolin, I think I see your point, but I was wondering if there is any real evidence for it. I mean, it is clear that cultivation spren are working as a team (called "the Ring" according to Wyndle) and that they had a few different candidates - Wyndle mentions a distinguished Iriali matron (WoR interlude) and Ym in Edgedancer. I know Ym is fairly lowly, but a "distinguished" matron implies someone with at least a degree of affluence and importance to my mind at least. From the WoR Interlude it is clear that "The Ring" operates on fairly democratic principles because Wyndle (who was ultimately bonded) is overruled. In such a system, wouldn't it be better to look at all the candidates available to them then decide? Well we don't know that didn't happen - it seems reasonable to think that Wyndle may mention other possible candidates to bond with in the future every time he gets irritated with Lift and perhaps they will mention Adolin? Point is, we can't rule it in because there is no evidence of it. So anyway, if we accept that cultivationspren may not have chosen Adolin despite him possibly being a candidate, is it not more likely it was actually that they simply never got near him? Lift is from Rall Elorim (Iri), there was Ym in Iri, and it was an Iriali matron (likely living in Iri). Maybe it was simply a lack of proximity? Wyndle says cultivationspren are not a very important group of spren - perhaps the Ring is a government of sorts in the areas they live (presumably near Iri)? Perhaps only spren from there are involved in tryong to bond and cultivationspren living elsewhere in Shadesmar aren't looking to bond at all? They chose appropriate people where they already were rather than go looking for them because it would be quicker and easier. So, having made that argument, I'm now going to counter it. In order to get close to a human to bond, spren have to go into the oceans of Shadesmar and pop through to the physical world to be near them. That in itself surely makes it a difficult task, even if they are closer. We also don't know how long Wyndle was in the physical realm before joining with Lift. We know Syl had been in the physical realm for years before she bonded Kaladin, but it is implied that the cryptic bonding to Elokhar had literally only just come through. How long had they been watching her? How long had they been watching the others? How long had they spent looking for potential Edgedancers? Time is somewhat less relevant to spren because unlike humans it is clear that spren don't breathe, eat, drink or sleep, so travelling from one of Roshar to the other is going to be easier and quicker for them than a human would find it. As there is organisation behind the effort to bond Lift, don't we think that the Ring would send out scouts to look for as many potential candidates as possible? It is suggested that there are 2 Edgedancers created (at least) at similar times because both Ym and Lift are bonded. Wyndle may be a backup, but given the timeframe implied between Lift swearing her first oath and 2nd, it's not so unlikely that he was planned to join with someone at the same time as Ym bonded, or shortly after. Given the effort to ensure Wyndle kept his mind after transfer to the physical realm, wouldn't they have wanted the best candidate possible to reduce the risk of them failing to swear and then live the Ideals? The whole thing for Lift's bond feel prepared and planned and executed with precision (approriate for cultivationspren), rather than something more emotional like Syl's bond to Kaladin feels. As I said, I'm not averse to the idea of Adolin going Edgedancer. I can see the evidence pointing that he will get there, I am much less clear that he had started on the path before he he sees Maya in Shadesmar. New thought - i haven't seen it posted but I'm sure someone must have mentioned a similar idea here (sorry for repeating it if so): How important is it that Adolin was physically in Shadesmar? Given the way the mind of the broken spren was forced into the physical realm during the Recreance (they were left as Sharblades and presumably almost completely disconnected from the cogntive realm) is it possible that because he was bonded to her (indeed tried to summon her) whilst in shadesmar that this has allowed her to put herself together a little bit? Reconnected her in some way, not only because of his perception but because her fragments are right next to each other and could look to connect? On top of that, Adolin also walks out of the perpendicularity at TC - which unites 3 separate realms and provides loads of stormlight which might have help her reunite the disparate bits of her mind? It seems she was already improving before he went through the perpendicularity so his perception of her must be important, but it doesn't have to be the only thing.

I would personally assume that he isn't broken because he doesn't have a Nahel bond. He may be forming one, but until OB he hadn't If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded? The fact that Lift or Lopen seem upbeat is irrelevant - they have bonds therefore they broke. That's the nature of the bond. The fact that Adolin doesn't have on yet (or at least hasn't completed one yet) implies that if he gets one in future it is something else that breaks him. It might be the revelation of Evi's death - but it will be the new information, not his past hurts that specifically breaks him in that case. That kind of thing would certainly be enough to disrupt a person's trajectory.

Oh so Reachers are lightspren. Thanks - I somehow got the idea they were different.

Ye gods, I've tried to catch up with you all this morning and just has to respond to about 45 comments. It's amazing! That said I am still sick so it is going to take me a while to make my points. Please bear with me and my very fuzzy brain. For those people interested in reading female protagnoists that manage family life etc in fantasy. I remembered that Anne McCaffrey's books (she has various series that you might like to try), do a very good job of this (in my opinion anway). She doesn't shy away from having her female characters approach all aspects of female life, indeed I seem to remember a scene of one of the protagonists going through labour.... can't remember who tho - sorry. Note that she is a female author, not a male one. One of the issues with fantasy is that a great many authors in the genre are male and thus are at risk of portraying women poorly. I personally think that BS does a good job on female characters as a whole, but he is somewhat blinkered because he has not personally gone through being a woman and juggling the demands society makes on women. This is not a criticism of his writing but an acknowledgement that it is much harder to write something you don't know than something you do. How often are there still questions over working mums for example? We don't get the same issues raised with working dads. Whilst an individual male author might manage to write the broad spectrum of feminine issues, as a whole, the genre does it poorly. Indeed, there are relatively few female characters even in ChickLit that are mothers of young children or pregnant. And that is a genre specifically aimed at female readers and mostly written by female writers. Fantasy is still a primarily male sport - both in terms of its authorship and its readership. Anyway, on to the comments. Lol, i love that you are looking for things like this, but this may be a step too far. On the other hand, keep going - I am massively loving the minor elements that may prove to be of interest going forward. I disagree, though it essentially comes down to personal experience and whether we are optimisitc or pessimistic in our outlooks. I think it is a terrible risk to have a child because it might help. Firstly, I don't think anyone should look to motherhood as a means of fixing anything (whether it is mental health, self esteem, the need for unconditional love, or a failing marriage). It is not fair on the child. If having a kid does help, then I guess thats ok, but it is a huge risk to take and if it doesn't, then it could be construed as the kid being to blame for it not working. That said, if she is healthy/fixed and wants a kid because having one with Adolin is what she wants, then, as I said, more power to her. I have no issues with that as a concept. What I am interested in is why you think her problems are resolved? My own personal take is that they aren't based on multiple aspects like the fact that she is still openly dissociating (Veil and Radiant still appear and talk about "we" at the wedding) and she says Adolin treats Veil like a drinking buddy. As I feel she is not in a stable place, I worry for the marriage and even more so for the idea of children. I would like you to explain what things in the text lead you to believe that she is better? Wow I disagree here (sorry). Dalinar is no more selfish than the next person with an addiction problem. He goes to the Nightwatcher because he realises he is starting to "hate" his sons (nb it is clear he thinks about them both looking like Evi, not only Adolin) and needs to do something about it. There is an element of self-interest here, but it isn't the main inducement for him to travel. I also want to point out that his drinking is a form of self-medicating so that he doesn't become the monster the Thrill wants him to be. Its an unhealthy way to handle it, but it isn't an inherently selfish action. It might be considered "selfish" to want to block out the thoughts of how he has ruined his kids lives, but that is the nature of substance abuse. It doesn't make him selfish, so much as human. On top of that he spends most of tWoK worrying that his visions are possible madness are taking his House, sons and people down with him. He wants to abdicate in favour of Adolin so he doesn't destroy their lives. He is less worried about going mad than the ramifications of it. He then spends the next 2 books worrying about uniting Alethkar/Roshar so people will be ready for the Everstorm etc and humanity will survive. I fail to see how that is selfish. Finally, I also don't see how him not telling his sons that he killed their mother is selfish. They have (in theory) reconciled themselves with her death. Telling them would only assuage his own guilt and cause potential cracks in their relationship. A relationship that all of them value. Not only that, but he isn't the same man as he was then, he has been reforged into a better version of himself. Does telling them actually benefit anyone? Yes the truth is important, but the full details don't actually affect the way their relationships have flourished. A healthy woman would react like this. An unhealthy one might not. On top of that, at 17, Shallan still has "teenage selfishness" to handle on top of a fragmented psyche. Forcing herself to think about other things is what got her into this mess in the first place. Note that she regularly forces ideas that make her uncomfortable to "the back of her mind" - she even talks about letting them "fester" there. I fail to see how her doing that because she has a kid is going to be good for her or a child? Hmm, I thought I was clear that I was joking. On the other hand, unless she has a wetnurse she will have to breastfeed a lot. And she will have to do so on demand. You can't exactly put it off when your kid is hungry and crying. If she has a kid and this issue isn't addressed then it is ignoring a matter that is inherent to motherhood of a baby. You were complaining about these issues not being handled in fantasy! Assuming that pregnancy on Roshar is approximately the same as on Earth, and she gets pregnant on her wedding night, then the kid will be somewhere around the equivalent of 2-3 Earth months old at the beginning of SA4. Kids that age typically nurse 7-8 times a day when on breast milk.I doubt formula is a thing on Roshar. Roshar days are slightly shorter than Earth days, but even if we use the 24hour day that is a feed approximately every 3 hours, with each feed lasting around the 10 minute mark. Can Shallan go on a spying mission in that time? Can she risk fighting/coercing another Unmade? If she does, then isn't she ignoring the responsibility to her kid? If she doesn't then we lose those arcs of her story as well as others that seem to have disappeared (eg Helaran). If BS can make it work then, as I said, I'm not inherently against it in principle, I am just not convinced that he can whilst keeping all readers engaged. Wait, so its not ok for me to think most authors do motherhood poorly and make it boring but its ok for you to think Jasnah is boring because she doesn't follow any of the female tropes? Isn't that an inherent contradiction? I would be happy to see motherhood done well, but as we've already said, there are limited options available to us. On top of that, how is Jasnah selfish?? She is clearly close with Renarin and doesn't kill him (despite it possibly) being the "logical" thing to do. She has clearly been around for him during his very difficult childhood (note that he talks about going round her and how they were both in Kholinar together). On top of that, all her efforts are going into learning stuff so that she can help save Roshar. She forms interpersonal relationships just fine. She had a tearful reunion with Navani, she hugs Renarin and refuses to kill him - even though he himself seemed to think it was not only inevitable but advisable, she is the one who goes to get Shallan in Thaylenah, she is close with Dalinar - as is mentioned multiple times throughout the books (eg he wishes she would retrun to the Shattered Plains in tWoK). Just because she isn't touchy-feely like Shallan or approachable like Adolin doesn't make her bad at personal relationships. She is not automatically classist (she seesm to interact with the other Veristalian historians just fine despite their very different backgrounds and is fair/respectful to Liss in WoR prologue). like many of her peers, she just doesn't tolerate fools well. It's perhaps not the nicest trait for a person to have but she needs some flaws or she wouldn't be believable. This is true in real life. But the argument has not been "real life mothers lose agency" but that "fictional mothers tend to lose agency". I am not going to give any author a free pass on this until they have proven they have done it once. BS has been very close - see Silence in "Shadows for Silence" but a) that is a short story and (b) he only covers a very brief period of her life. We have years of Shallan's arc to go and multiple books, where she is likely to remain a main character. He might manage it, but he might not, and statistically, he is less likely to pull it off than he is to succeed. I'll be pleased if he does, but I'm not assuming he can until I see some evidence. Navani is only about 50. It's hardly ancient. Implying that she is uninteresting because she is "old" is as bad as saying that Shallan "cannot" be interesting as a mother. On top of that, she is likely the closest thing Gavinor has to a mother. She is one of his closest relations after all. On top of that, she was only in Kholinar a few months ago and was likely interacting with him on a daily basis. He is completely alone now and Navani enjoys motherhood. Dalinar thinks that towards the end of WoR (she proetcts her clutch like a mother axehound iirc). She is the natural person to use to explore motherhood in Roshar because the kid is already a factor. As he is also heir, he plays an inherently important role for the books going forward. As she is consort to the high King of Urithiru, she has responsibilities to that and the idea of a working mum in Urithiru can be easily explored without risking losing screentime on important plots like the Ghostblood/Sja-Anat arc. As each book can only be a finite length, not everything can be explored fully in a given story. Regarding how many mothers are readers, it doesn't matter. Unless BS decides to pander entirely to his audience he should be writing according to his plot line, not the views and wishes of his readers. It is all well and good to get ideas about how things can be put so that they are more relevant/believable to people, but he shouldn't be using his beta readers to come up with plot lines for him. The story should be basically written when they give feedback. I think you misunderstood me. It isn't about the complexity it is about the time. Assuming your kids are healthy, a 12 year old simply doesn't need as much time as a baby and they are much more flexible when they get it. If they weren't we wouldn;t be able to send them to school. A breastfeeding mum in the middle ages couldn't go too far from her kid unless she had a wetnurse. If Shallan hands off her kid to a nanny/wetnurse all the time, then are we actually going to see the conflicts within the motherhood role explored? If we aren't, then why include it? Thank you for making those points, and I agree that there is a world where Shallan and Adolin could work just fine. This may even be that world, but I don't think they are there yet. I'd like to answer your points if I may? They both state they are committed to making the relationship work. True, though Shallan heavily implies/says that she needs it because she needs to find Urithiru and provide protection for her brothers (WoR - if there are other mentions of this in OB please let me know). Adolin, does see to be committed to her though and all credit to him. The initial interactions show a good camaraderie and banter, plus the fact Adolin is thrown off balance in a very refreshing way (the poop in shardplate scene is one of my favorite humor scenes in all of the three books.) I agree re the poop thing. I see that as having been the real Shallan, the one who could be disarmingly sincere. Adolin responds well because sincerity is so rare in the Alethi court. About the banter though - I thought that Shallan specifically thinks (both in WoR and OB) that she finds Adolin's wit somewhat lacking because he didn't twist her words and throw them back at her. I think that she thinks their banter is fine. Not great, but fine. It might be enough. They do have camraderie, but whilst that is important in a steady relationship, it shouldn't be the only thing. They do have physical attraction though so again, it might be ok. Shallan is interested in things in a way Adolin hasn't seen before in girls he courts. I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I was imaging how much she would have liked the strap-cutting investigation. As a mirror, we see her actively involved in the Sadeas investigation. Yes I agree very much with this. She has an analytical mind and enjoys working it. Adolin doesn't seem to, but you dont have to match on everything Adolin listens to Shallan. He expresses over-protective feelings for her post-chasms, and he seems to internalize this, such as letting her do her own thing in the Battle of Narak. He generally lets her do her thing in OB, though he is obviously protective of her (not a bad thing!) I agree that he listens, but I think as he is a natural people person this is not as strong a point as it could be. He listens well to most people. Its not a critiscm but something that cannot really be used from his side as a supporting argument unless we say it also supports Kal x Ado too. Shallan though, is less good at finding out and remembering the details people give her - especially personal stuff that is of no great importantance to the bigger picture. I am not saying that she isn't listening, only that we have limited evidence to suggest that she is. For example, Adolin says he despises hunting in WoR. If Shallan has taken that on board, we haven't seen it mentioned so it is difficult to know if she is putting Adolin first. We also have multiple instances where he does not seem to pick up on hints she gives to her motivations that she does not express verbally. Again, that in itself is not a problem except for the fact that she is not good at telling people her problems. It would be good if Adolin could get her to open up. Maybe he will, in which case it's all good. However we have little evidence that suggests this is happening at this point in time. They work well together in stressful situations. Kholinar and Shadesmar are good examples of this. They seem to be a good team. True. This is a good idea to follow through on - the Alethi elite function best in pairs because of the way their society divides the roles of men and women. A pair that can anticipate the needs of the other - both in personal and political lives are likely the most successful. Adolin wants to spend time with Shallan and introduce her to new things (spicy food, sword fighting), and she is generally receptive to this. This is a good dynamic in any relationship (involving your partner in your interests.) Note I don't think Adolin can be held responsible for Shallan fracturing into Radiant at the sword fighting. I agree. I don't actually blame either of them. It is one of those terrible moments that happen by accident. Misunderstandings are often the cause of conflict rather than actual cruelty. Unlike Shallan being responsible for her mother's death (not to blame, but reposnible regardless), Adolin cannot be held responsible because he cannot even know it happened then. Not only was it not his intent, but he also couldn't have predicted it. I think personally think Shallan likes feeling smarter than people; Adolin allows her to do this (even though I think he is smarter than her in many ways, and more book smart than she gives him credit for, but she definitely feels like she has the intellectual upper hand.) So I don't think Adolin is that intellectual. I also think that even if he has the capacity, I think he is lazy in this regard and simply can't be bothered to learn. As an Alethi man, he seems to think he doesn't need to. Its a function of the society he is in, but despite liking wine for example, he doesn't bother to learn about it like Renarin has. Adolin has the benefit of an excellent education - likely the best money can buy. But he does lack intellectual curiosity - look how he doesn't bother finding out about the buildings on the Shattered Plains. He isn't that interested in the chasmfiends except because a lack of gemhearts is a serious problem if they can't feed their soldiers. He only really enjoys Shallan's pictures initially because of how good she is. We don;t see him get interested in her drawings of the mandras. Its ok, we can't share every interest that our partners share, so I don;t automatically think its a deal breaker, but natural history is Shallan's calling after all. On a personal preference note, I think Shallan will get bored with a partner who cannot keep up with her intellectually. I think she resembles Jasnah in this regard (who is likely single at least in part because she cannot find someone to match her intellectually). Different people handle this different ways, but most of the clever women I have known tend to have partners who match them on this level, rather than allow them to prop their own ego up. We see in OB that they both express more inner secrets to each other. Shallan tells Adolin about Kabsal; Adolin tells Shallan about Sadeas. I think they open up to each other appropriately, esp. given that most people don't have Shallan's, ummm, past murder issues. Wouldn't it have been appropriate for Shallan to maybe tell Adolin that she is a murderer too? I am not sure he knows any of her secrets yet. I guess he'll know at least some by SA4 but it will be a serious warning sign if he still doesn't know all of them by then. I personally don't consider the Kabsal thing a secret. Only 2 people knew about it - Jasnah and Shallan, and until now, Jasnah wasn't around to tell anyone. Now she is, it seems like it would be at risk of coming out. A better secret would be that she tried to become Jasnah's ward to steal the soulcaster from her. Kabsal's thing is not only now a minor plot point, it doesn't paint Shallan in a negative light - it only made her look a little naive. I am still personally waiting for her to show Adolin her feet of clay - the flaws that she cannot try to push onto Veil or Radiant. If she keeps pushing those onto other alts, then he doesn't actually know her at all. As I said, I could get on board the ship more or less as is, with a few minor tweaks that show genuine understanding. A sequence like the chasm/highstorm would be best imo, but failing that I'd take something concrete like a situation where someone says something like "Come on a hunt with us Adolin" and Shallan says "Actually he despises hunting". At least it would prove she took something he said on board. I feel we don't get enough of that. If you disagree, please provide quotes True - why even bring him into it. Neither he nor Shallan have significantly benefitted from the interactions unless they are part of a larger whole. Kaladin could definitely have been "lightened" in a way that doesn't indcate romance. Hmm, I liked Catelyn for the most part - her dislike for Jon Snow aside, she was a decent mother. That said, she fell right into the "mother" archetype most of the time so it wasn't exactly a huge deviation from the path most travelled. Personal preference aside, I don't want to see Shallan become a version of Catelyn because I don;t want her pigeonholed. I think you would probably quite like some of the Anne McCaffrey stuff. Like many long series, her Pern stuff takes a bit of time to get going, but from what I recall Lessa (the initial female protagonist) experiences many female roles through the books. Also, dragons. Because who doesn't like dragons? Well I think it's a stretch to say "everyone" as many of the people on this thread have stated otherwise However, I think many women have a bit of the "my" wedding thing - most women are more invested in the wedding than the groom is in my experience. Shallan does take it way too far though imo. I don't mind Shallan wanting to be thought pretty at that stage in the relationship. I want my SO to think I'm pretty/attractive after 6 years. That said, I do agree that it needs to go from there at some point. A purely physical relationship is doomed to fail unless some emotional attachment starts. Um yes, I think that was the point? It was pointing out that we have some basic building materials to build a complete ship but need additonal material to really get behind it. Without that, all we have is a skeleton of a ship. Pattern gets drowsy towards the beginning of WoR too. Shallan even wonders if spren can get drowsy as well. She never bothers to answer that question for herself. I don't quite see how they relate explicitly but the interaction happens at pag 421 of 1080 (kindle) 38% of the way through in chapter 36. She has just killed Tyn and seems to be pretending that she hasn't, in that she doesn't acknowledge it in her monologue. Its possibly a bit of a stretch so if anyone else can put together the ideas please do so for me! Regarding the sarcasm you are very right. He gets so excited when he accidentally uses sarcasm in WoR - they have a whole conversation about it and he specifically say "it is the bond" that allows him to use those kinds of things. He also uses more abstractions - eg the concept of the "taste" of Shallan's lies through illusions. By the end, he cannot undertand that Adolin says that they are an odd group (ie a weird group) but sees that seven people make an odd number. I found it funny at the time, but it could mask a serious issue. I don't mind the books not being modular, however you are discounting something quite important I feel and that is that BS's books tend to be modular when they are written in series. Whilst you cannot read Mistborn 2 or 3 without having read the earlier books, they do almost stand apart in terms of the arcs that are followed. I remember getting to the end of Mistborn 1 and being confused how he could even eke out 1 other book, let alone 2. I was very impressed with how he managed it. Now SA is obviously not nearly so clear cut, but it is not unreasonable, given the previous 2 endings plus other books by the same author, that a clean ending could be expected. The main issue that has got people worried is that IF it is a clear cut ending and they feel it probably shouldnt be. If we get to SA4 and it turns out that OB was not like WoR or tWoK, then a lot of this concern will disappear for future books. That said, with a time skip, some of the elements like Helarans death and Sadeas's murder may not be revisited. Sadeas' murder seems oto have borne fruit in that it lead to the idea that there was a copy-cat killer. Did it have to be Adolin that killed him? I don't really see why as Adolin doesn't seem to be held accountable for it as of the end of OB. Yes, this. As it should be. But just because the author is king doesn't mean I have to like the taxes he levies. "You're the king? Well I didn't vote for you." Yes I very much agree with this. For all that I want there to be magic in the books I don't want stuff to get fixed "because magic". From what I understand, you seem to think that Veil and Radiant are mere constructs and not a part of Shallan? Would that be fair to say? This is exactly the opposite of what I think is going on, but unless we get a WoB confirming one way or the other we will have to be content to disagree on this. That said, I am interested to know how you rationalise them not being part of Shallan when Wit (who is pretty reliable for all that obfuscates the truth) says: "Your other minds take over" and "You're all of them" (from chapters 82 and 84 respectively) As we know there is a real-world analogue for what Shallan is going through, I feel it is reasonable to work from that as an assumption, given how independent her different identities are. I feel that they represent facets of the complete Shallan. Creating complete constructs that bear no relation to the real Shallan seems.... forced, given how she herself describes them. In WoR especially she says that Veil is a version of herself. I feel pretty comfortable with the concept that she has simply gone one step further and made that version feel separate from the whole. If you feel that they are completely separate, how do you explain the way that Veil as a person has changed very little in terms of her behaviour between when Shallan was wearing Veil's mask (in WoR) to now when Veil appears to be a separate entity in her mind. On top of that, how would you explain the alternate identities being able to take control of the body if they aren't based on Shallan's core personality? There is no evidence that she is being possessed or if that is even possible in the cosmere. Actually, I disagree with the bit i put in bold. If she'd truly recombined, even for a moment, she'd be seen as one, not three. She still sees her alts as intrinsic to her ability to function. She needs to get past that and see that she already is all three. Yes - and seems to be encouraging at least Adolin to treat them as individuals. I agree with a great deal of your post, but I'd like to address a couple of points if I may. I'm not sure that "most" readers want everything to fit. Fandoms and forums like this one cause people to gravitate towards overanalysis so we are only seeing that aspect here. I was talking with a friend who had also read SA the other day but they had blithely just accepted it and weren't interested in the analysis/theorycrafting/shipping aspects of the book at all. They simply enjoyed it. That's fine and a perfectly reasonable way to read fiction, especially when someone has real life stresses to worry about and they don't want to waste energy on analysing a book. Its not how I handle it, but I sometimes wish it were I see where you are coming from saying that analysis of relationships (not even just romantic ones) may be impossible given your points on how Sanderson has handled them in the past. That being said, no matter how much a person may dislike a given ship in his other books, I have never felt "misled" the way I feel about this one. I can see why Siri/Susebron may upset people, but I never personally got the impression it wasn't going to happen. The same could be said of most of the romantic arcs we've had. I would say the closest I got to feeling this way was (Mistborn 2nd trilogy spoiler) I also didn't get other foreshadowing elements like situations where Shallan changes clothes in the streets of Kharbranth, wonders if "anyone" had ever seen her naked then "shivered in the wind's kiss". Why put that in given how heavily Kaladin is associated with the wind? Why even make the scene vaguely sexual in nature? What about the way Kaladin's climb into the hollow in the chasm is written which also has a vaguely sexual feel to it. He may not write romantic arcs that well, but then it should be easy to avoid those kinds of descriptions surely? On the note of the lack of creatitivity with Roshar being another quasi medieval setting, I do see your point. That being said, Sanderson is changing this up elsewhere and I don't mind so much that it wasn't in his epic. Wax and Wayne are Victoriana, and iirc the third Mistborn trilogy will be current day then he plans on it being futuristic. On top of that, he did the Reckoners which is "present day" in a way too - tho as it is post-apocalyptic there are some parallels with a more primitive society, though not the issues surrounding the subjugation of women imo. I think, because he wanted the KR to be magical representations of medieval knights, it makes sense it is set in a medieval settiing. That's ok. He wanted the oaths to matter and that is reflective of the concept of chivalry (which wasn't actually a thing, but has permeated the social consciousness) in medieval societies. For those reasons alone, the setting makes sense. I do agree though that we don't need another book where the women are given their roles and they have to stick to them. For the record, until now, I have been happy with the women he wrote in SA. They are not boxed into the female triad in my opinion. That said, I do agree I will be very disappointed if I hear that Shallan hits motherhood in SA4. I'll still get it and see how he handles it - his writing is good enough that I want to give him a chance to prove he can get it right. if however, I reach the end of the book and I feel he hasn't done a good enough job then yes, I may also drop the series. I'll still read his other books because I have enjoyed him as an author so far, but I'll probably wait longer to get his books than I typically have been. Hello @AllomancerSam welcome to the currently becalmed SS Shalladin. We are currently running out of water, food, and desire to live, but we have dental! I think you made some great points above and I especially like the way you compared Shallan and Dalinar. Interestingly, both Dalinar and Shallan use the word "monster" to describe themselves at least once each. I find them a very interesting contrast. I actually think that responsibility and accepting it is a major point in the series as a whole so far - Kaladin almost accepts it too easily - Dalinar comments on how he does this in WoR and says it is commendable. Dalinar finally takes responsibility at the end of OB after a great deal of soul searching. And Shallan seems to have tried to run away from it for most of her life. I personally don't think she has started doing it yet properly (it is one thing to know she killed her mother and another to accept the responsibility of her actions) but there are other's here who do and thats open to interpretation at this stage imo. The bit you wrote regarding Wit is really important. I re-read that section this morning and it hit me again, so thank you. Hoid knows a lot. A lot. There is some evidence that he has future-sight and he knows she can manage it. I suspect that it is because he isn't getting any "i need to help her" feelings from her so he knows she can do it on her own. We will see Shallan improve at some point and this will let her be herself and be happy. She may have started though I'm not convinced. Ha, make sure you get a large mug! I had a read of this essay by Gaiman and whilst it makes perfect sense, it is also unrealistic to expect people not to expect things. We are pattern-recognition machines - although not necessarily accurate ones. We want to see patterns so search them out. This will always make a reader have some expectations. Lets think about Sanderson's new "mystery project" (Skyward or something? I forget). I have heard nothing about it except the possible name that I may be misremembering anyway. I still expect it to be fantasy because BS writes fantasy predominantly. I expect there to be multiple PoVs - even if one person is more "main" than the others, because many of his books follow this pattern. Is it wrong of me to do this? I agree, tho one of the reasons i'd be disappointed if the marriage ends up magically perfect is because he can write characters to be themselves despite the risk of stereotyping them. I agree. I love all the "people" bits. My SO and I were talking about this last night actually. He likes the "mechanics" of the worlds - the principles underlying the magic system, how the crem stops Roshar being eroded away, the relationship between Shadesmar and the physical realm. I like the history, the social constructs/constraints, the taboos, the languages and most of all the relationships. We still both value the world building, but he gets a lot more out of the Ars Arcanum than I do generally, except when it relates to something like the written languages of Roshar. I feel that Sanderson writes both sides well but that romantic arcs are a relative weakness of his. He doesn't write them poorly from an objective perspective really (there are plenty of more poorly written romances out there after all) but they are definitely a weakness in comparison with how he writes other relationships. For example, regardless of whether you prefer Adolin or Kaladin, I think we can all agree that the Adolin/Kaladin bromance is great. I don't necessarily mind that the scenes you describe weren't clear cut. I felt they reflected Shallan's own personal inner conflict quite well actually. If I am right and she is only halfway through this particular arc, then they actually make perfect sense. I am worried that if the end of OB closes the arc then why didn't we see her actually come to the realisation that Adolin was the better choice for rational reasons. And if anyone says "love isn't rational" I'm not buying it. Attraction isn't rational, but I am quite clear that I love my partner because of many reasons and I can rationalise them. If Shallan really loves Adolin, it should be for more than "he makes me feel good and safe". She should be able to tell us why with much more detail. Yes - this . Atually ignore my comment above and just use this instead. It's much more coherent. Great post. I very much agree about there being objectively good and bad writing and am surprised to think this is even something that can be debated. Does anyone really think that Mills and Boon books are in any way comparable to Atonement? Its not about enjoyment, its about the author being able to translate thoughts, images, feelings, ideas and situations into the written word - preferably without making the reader work too hard to get their meaning. As an aside, I'd love to see this list you mentioned - would you mind sending me a PM with some/all of the things you look for? I'd be most grateful. So I agree to a point regarding the arranged marriage. I can see that when building a world where arranged marriage fits the social construct it may be necessary to include it. I also think it was used for purposes other than romance in WoR to get Shallan into places she might otherwise have struggled to get. I felt it sped some of those things up and therefore had it's place. I'm not sure how she'd have managed to get in with the Kholins without it. I'm not saying it was impossible, but more of the book would have had to cover it. I am disappointed that its yet another magically successful arranged marriage. I feel that it might be nice for BS to undermine his own trope regarding this and delve into a failed/unhappy marriage for once. He brushed over Navani/Gavilars. He still might go there though so we'll just have to see. I very much agree that those "deleted scenes" you mentioned make it very difficult to assume anything is going to be carried forward. It is difficult to come up with a way that Adolin faces any form of justice for example if there is a year time skip. That really bothers me. I still think Helaran's death may be explored but again, it feels strange to think it won't come up in the timeskipped period? If it doesn't come up then, maybe it never will? Why even make it a thing then? I think Jasnah as a whole should probably have had more time (though i suspect he is keeping her under wraps because she knows too much and he isn't ready to divulge all the deets to us yet). Even so, hiding her return from us felt unnecessary. We could definitely have lost some of the other things elsewhere to make room for it if those threads are going to be dropped. Very true - I think we all acknowledge that there are so many things he has to cover that he cannot pick up every thread. Whilst he is very good at going back and tying up loose ends/making stuff fit, SA is so massive that it is much less likely that he'd manage it like he did in Mistborn, Alsom thank you for finding his response. Very interesting. So as I said above I think it is mainly that people are concerned that the books are modular so the tie-up at the end of the book is the genune conclusion to several arcs. If it isn't modular, I for one will be very pleased. From what I understood, the objection is as much about the morality or otherwise of arranged marriage as it is about using the trope because it is easy and that is lazy writing. I agree that morality is not objective, but there are "easy" tropes and more difficult ones. Arranged marriage, at least based on how many times BS has used it, is an "easy" one for him. Well put I have a minor gripe that I'd be worried for both the child and Shallan. They could both suffer in this case. I very much agree about what you said about navel gazing. Too many people seem to think that focussing on yourself is inherently bad and neglect to realise how important it is in the context of mental health. We do therapy precisely because self-reflection is a big part of the healing process. Indeed. I am perhaps a little more hopeful than you seem to be (but then I've been venting on this thread for ages now) because I believe Sanderson has written OSDD too well for it to be a coincidence and that means he's researched it. If he has researched it, then he must know this is still something Shallan needs to handle and that Adolin is doing the wrong thing by separating her Alts. His understanding, description ad handling of depression is so good that I cannot believe he'd handle a different, albeit less common, mental illness with such a lack of care. Indeed. As i mentioned above, it actually solved a lot of issues with regards to getting Shallan to the Shattered Plains and into a position of relative authority quite quickly. I'm just of the opinion that it probably shouldn't have made it to marriage at this stage in her arc. Um, do we honestly think that it was ok for Adolin to murder Sadeas? I get that it was never going to be a main arc because Adolin is a side character, but I am surprised at how it was literally glossed over. Shallan basically had no reaction to it whatsoever.... True, although Adolin says that they are "supposed" to get married in WoR and Shallan goes out of her way to make it work - usually by lying like a flatfish to Adolin. That implies they are both seeing it as the "expected" outcome. They may feel positively towards it, but that doesn't stop it being a social construct that they feel they have to obey. A bit like Shallan finding it difficult to reveal her safe-hand. It's just a hand, but she spends a lot of time thinking about how to hide it. Jasnah is Queen but she likely won't have a direct hereditary line. 1) Gavinor is her heir. It is implied he will take over when he is of age. She is not a regent because by it's very nature a regency limits the powers of the regent. Jasnah won't be limited in that way but she will probably have to give way to Gavinor. 2) There are perfectly good heirs already in place after Gavinor - those being Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin. Obviously Dalinar would have to abdicate, but Adolin and Renarin were already in line and it was always a possibility for them. Society can usually only take so much upheaval. Declaring a heretic as Queen is likely to be hard enough without her forming a dynasty. Allowing the people to see Gavinor as the future king, likely raised by a pious Navani will do a lot to suppress worried about the succession. Indeed. Have an upvote.damnation, i'm out - I'll get back to you. The most ugy aspect of societal norms is when you don't even need other people to tell you what you have to do, you are so ingrained in the thought process you do it to yourself. Agreed. I think Jasnah will just let Gavinor take over - maybe during the back 5 books. She'll likely be champing at the bit to get back to her studies by then. Thank you for this post. I've bookmarked it so I can come back and read it whenever I'm feeling low about the arc! I can't quite get to your position on matters but I can see some light if you are right. Yes, this is a great synopsis. I am however, not so certain that Adolin wants to love the "real Shallan". How could he know? He hasn't really met her. Also, wanting to love someone is an odd way to put it - you love someone, or you don't. Wanting to love someone suggests that ether part of you doesn't love them and you feel guilty, or you don't love part of them and then feel guilty. Not a wonderful recipe, either way. Ha, having 'helped' several women give birth even the "easy" ones are offputting enough for me. I "helped" one woman during her 4th and it vitually popped out like a cork after a couple of contractions. She was in the middle of a sentence, too a deep breath, pushed the kid out, then she carried on talking. It was amazing but still really icky. Hey, thanks for writing this @Stormlightning I appreciate it. I'd like to clarify a few things if you don't mind. 1) You mentioned that you think Adolin "knows enough" of Shallan and I can somewhat get behind that in terms of her past actions , but I find it difficult to reconcile with the fact that that he doesn't see Veil and Radiant as being part of the "real" Shallan. I got the impression you think those are part of her core personality, in which case how does this work with him knowing enough? "Shallan" is a dominant alt, but Veil is at least as big a fragment. Merging them back together might have interesting ramifications - a bit like resonanance between two surges makes the handling of those surges different. I got the impression that Adolin doesn't feel anything romantic for Veil - how would you say this might be handled going forward if Veil and Shallan merge? If he doesn't find Veil attractive, even when wearing Shallan's face, then wouldn't that make it awkward? 2) I agree that Adolin is a stable person. He is probably the least broken person we've seen in any of the books. It doesnt automatically make him good for Shallan of course, but she could do worse in terms of his genuine desire to help her. 3) I actually think that Shallan and Kaladin having opposite ways of coping are what would make it both interesting and beneficial for them both. They could both do with learning a bit of each other's thought processes so that they get a wider variety of coping mechanisms each. Adolin currently seems to be allowing Shallan to hide imo. This is the opposite of what she allegedly wanted at the end of WoR. 4) Not to be mean, but there weren't any complicated ideas for Adolin to have to keep up with. He knew who the killer was in the Sadeas investigation so he gets no props for spotting the copy-cat killer thing. Were there any academic subjects brought up that he contributed to? He wasn't even in the driving seat for Elhokar's plans to get an army to storm the palace. There is nothing wrong with being average, but lets not pretend he is clever. Jasnah is clever, Shallan is clever, Renarin is clever, Kaladin is clever. Adolin, according to all the in-book evidence we have, is ordinary. So I do see your point regarding the idea that the relationship was already working, but I think it smacks a little too much of the idea of "Love the one you're with". Shallan is young enough that she doesn't need to rush things and can take her time making sure she's the right choice. I do think that Adolin forced her into it a little bit because he tried to break it off, so she felt she had to convince him not to. Then they ended up getting married moments later (well thats what it felt like). I just feel that if you are seriously contemplating another person, then its not ok to go and marry the person you are with. You shouldn't have to convince yourself that they are right. I don't think that this is what people are saying. The issue is that if Adolin is enabling her, then she won't improve. If he allows her to treat her condtition as though it were normal, then how can she progress? I think you think that she is no longer dissociating? Or at least that she has started to improve. Based on how I understand her likely diagnosis, I disagree and I am worried that she cannot grow if he is encouraged to keep her alts separate. It isn't the marriage per se that is the issue. Its the fact that she seems inclined to keep her alts separate that is. Her marriage to Adolin is symptomatic, not aetiological of her situation. So, I get where you are coming from as Shallan controls Veil and Radiant. However this strategy can only work in the short term for OSDD, she ultimately needs to put her alts together and re-form her core. Having control may allow her to lean coping mechanisms for her anxiety, but it also might lead her to a situation where she reinforces the walls so strongly that breaking them down becomes near impossible. This means that she becomes at even greater risk of a significant breakdown, even in relatively unstressful periods. Yes - this. Agh so many good points so little time. The point in bold is really important. She seems to hate being identified as a Radiant at the end of WoR and that doesn't stop into OB. I agree that Tyn's advice was a very good and potentiall revealing piece of foreshadowing. The selfawareness is vital for all KR I believe - look at Dalinar's arc - but especially so for Lightweavers. The ship element of it is a side issue. Whilst Shallan doesn't know herself, how can she know what she wants? In tWoK she was desperate to stay with Jasnah despite knowing she had to steal the soulcaster. By Jasnah's return, she seems to have lost any desire to be a decent ward. Where did her desire to learn go? Why did it go? She got a bit of it back with the Mandras on the boat but she dissociates again almost immediately for other reasons. She herself doesn't see to know why her desire stopped and whilst she apologises to Jasnah, I didn't get the impression that she was massively invested in scholarship anymore. She spent so much time in WoR reading and working but thats all fallen off too. She draws but there seem to be fewer investigative drawings (ie with the notes on natural history) than previously too. It's really sad. She used to get so much pleasure from those things - indeed she got really excited about the Mandras and that was one of the few times she got really animated in the whole book. Its fine to get excited about Adolin and I'd rather she felt giddy than nothing at all, but the drawings were something that she did that made her happy. They didn't rely on an outsider. Definitely. It is also the same thing when saying that one can get annoyed about mothers in books having no agency. It isn't that real life mothers have no agency so much as authors tend not do it. And I'm finally done. Sorry for epic level post. If it needs splitting/modifying let me know.

Ah thank you. I knew iirc and fwiw but i'd never come across ITT before. I figured it might impact on how I read your sentence so it was worth checking. Its been a long time since i lived on a discussion forum like this. Last time was between books 5 and 7 of Harry Potter. I didn't bother going back after the 7th book because I had pretty much guessed the major points before hand and didn't need to discuss my feelings to resolve them. Not the "Deathly Hallows" plotline of book 7 of course, as those weren't hinted at before, but the major threads that had been indicated in how the story as a whole panned out. Yes, this. Thank you. I would say I am against it while she is so mentally fragile. Even if choosing Adolin is the right path and everything is hunky-dory, she still needs time. Once she's ready I'm not inherently opposed to the idea. On the subject of it being a problem, the issue is that there are a few "tropes" in literature that female characters are often boxed into. They usually fall into the "maiden", "mother" or "crone" archetypes. I don;t know about you but I am not only one of those three - indeed I am more than just those three as is every other woman I know. They may identify with one or more of those archetypes but it doesn't define who they are in their entirety. How many archetypes are there for male characters? Its a hell of a lot more than three. As long as Shallan doesn't lose that sense of uniqueness that we get, motherhood likely won't be an issue. However, a mother of a new-born that doesn't put the needs of her child first is not exactly doing her job. I am not saying an occasional laugh couldn't be had if Shallan has to stop in the middle of a battle to breastfeed, but it would get old pretty quickly. On top of that, given the way we know Alethi structure is stratified, she would be expected within world to behave according to certain principles. The issue is that plenty of women do have children because they are pressured into it. Particularly as they get older. Its so common its a sterotype that mothers/mothers-in-law talk longingly about grandchildren. I've had tutors ask why I am on my course rather than having a family - but they'd never say that to one of my male colleagues. When men get equal pressure about it I'll let it drop. Also, while the subject doesn't come up in terms of making women have children in books, have a think about how unique Jasnah is - how many other adult female characters are completely defined in the fantasy genre by themselves? She is not the virginal or sexually provocative "maiden", she has a slight "mother" role with Shallan but despised teaching, and she has a slight "crone" role in that she is a provider of knowledge but she does so as a result of her own work. Many fantasy novels end up sidelining the female characters as a result of their female roles and I think the consensus is that we don't want that to happen to Shallan. If BS can pull off a happy mother scenario without Shallan losing her agency, fine. Perhaps I lack the imagination but I can't see how he'd manage it without her having to leave her child behind somewhere. Finally, as we are reading fantasy, most of us probably don't want to read more mundane topics when we could find out about the magic stuff. No it isn't - it is a reflection on how poorly most authors handle the situation. We are - see Navani. We don't need another. Navani is no less a mother because Jasnah is an adult now. If Shallan goes down this route she needs to keep her agency. I am not sure how you make that happen in Alethi society. If BS pulls it off then fine but there could be very real conflict of a kind that will be unpleasant to read if Shallan has to choose between her child and Roshar as a whole. We've got enough broken children. More power to them. But just because that might be the norm where you are, doesn't mean it is the same for everyone. And in Alethi society we know there is pressure because Jasnah writes about it in the book Shallan reads in one of her WoR flashbacks. So I have some sympathy with the idea but I'm not sure its appropriate for fantasy. Why read a book that is designed to show off unusual situations if you have to fill it with every day situations? Doesn't it stop being fantasy then? Some normal/everyday situations are useful as a way of reflecting the real world issues. But they tend to be limited to minor points. How often do we see people bathing or toileting or even eating except as minor points that help with world building and are used in the background for other things of more import? A small child to look after is something that changes your life to an enormous extent. If Shallan has a kid then even by the time of the next book it will still be under 1 year old. Kids that age are hard work and need a huge amount of time put into them. How much can Shallan contribute in terms of time to the KR if she has a baby with her? Yes she will still be valuable for her skills as a LW, her insights for natural history, as well as all the other things she has contributed so far, but is it actually fair to ask that of her when she will have a responsibility to her kid? Do we want to water down the fantasy elements of the story to investigate the idea of a working mum in the KR? Is that why we are reading the SA in the first place?

Hi all. I'm a bit under the weather today so i am a bit rambly/incoherent so if I am unclear or have missed anything important I'm really sorry. Yes I agree - this was particularly well done in the 1st Mistborn trilogy - it was really difficult to predict where the next book was going. Stormlight is a more intricate story so the arcs don't (and can't) tie up quite so neatly. I think this may be the major problem most of us are facing here. We expected the end to feel complete and are torn between the idea that it must be because it is a Sanderson book, and can't be because it feels "too easy". It is a testament to how well he wrote the characters that we have spent so much time agonisng over where they are going. We know someone is going to suffer because the end of the world is happening, but none of us want any of them to suffer if we could help it. They will have to though if they are to grow as characters. I would. I have too much doubt in my own ability to interpret the literary devices to feel otherwise. I also am concerned that my own Shalladin prefernce means I am more inclined to see material that supports Shalladin than Shadolin. This is the main reason I get annoyed when Adolin fans refuse to give me material to support their assertions regarding him - I know I am probably missing the more subtle bits and I need help finding it. How am I supposed to appreciate those arguements without the canon material? Also, as previously mentioned, I'm not 100% about the idea that having a chld is an inherent "achievement" so it probably would be much easier for me than most Firstly I am currently watching BS's Q&A from one of the launch parties on Youtube and he gets asked a question about which books he'd throw across the room and I loled when I saw your comment! Secondly I completely agree with the bit I put in bold. I suspect that this actually won't happen because (a) BS writes PG books so we won't see that intimacy and (b) because the Shallan alt is likely to hold on to control quite well in those situations , but the point is that it could. Imagine being intimate with your SO and halfway through they decide to get up and walk away because they no longer fancy you. *shudders* Poor Adolin. I've been thinking a lot about this and how it could work that nothing worth writing about is going to happen for the next year and I've come up with some ideas that might work. 1) Shallan and Adolin go somewhere away from Urithiru - my preferred place would be Kharbranth (Palaneaum) In this way, Shallan is separated from potentially conflicting situations like her feelings for Kaladin, the needs of the Ghostbloods, her brothers wanting to know what has actually happened, and combat situations. This could work in line with an extended honeymoon for Shallan and Adolin and would help her give the Shallan aspect more agency and perceived control. The control might seem to be in place when the book starts but it may not actually be complete because how can she know it is working if she never tests it under stress. 2) Kaladin is sent away for much/most/all of the time. There are going to be a lot of refugees all over Roshar - the Fused have taken Iri etc, but there may be plenty of normal people just wanting to get out. On top of that places like Hearthstone etc have been battered and bruised leaving people homeless and possibly starving as a consequence of disrupted food supplies. If Alethkar is anything the UK for example, it is only 3 days away from starvation at the best of times. This (in case it wasn't clear) is not the best of times Kaladin and the Windrunners are in the best position to go all over Roshar and help out, and get people to safety/an Oathgate / shelter etc. This also adds the benefit of not stressing Kaladin in terms of him having to manage the issues he had when he realised that neither the Parshend nor the humans deserved to be killed in this war. If he isn't stressed, he also won't progress. Kaladin is very much a main character and likely to remain so for the whole front 5 books. We will see him level up but he still needs time to understand that 4th ideal before he can say the words and live them. 3) Adolin and Shallan go elsewhere in Alethkar to try to stabilise some of the countryside, taking in refugees and restarting the economy - it is going to be Adolin's job after all as HighPrince.. This would be the situation if Adolin is sent somewhere and Shallan follows (in my mind, in (1) it is Shallan who is the person sent, and Adolin follows). Shallan would be required to fill the role of "perfect" Alethi wife here and again, may feel she has gained control etc. So there must be a scenario where they all stay at Urithiru but I cannot see how this wouldn't potentially aggravate Shallan's conflict. Even if Shalladin is not a thing, simply being in the presence of the Ghostbloods (who want Veil, not Shallan) should be enough to raise conflict - which would be strange to not write about. An author writes the interesting bits of a person's life, not the every day stuff - or the repetitive stuff so presumably there must be relatively little conflict of great import in the next year during the timeskip? I was actually referring to myself - sorry, I wasn't trying to implicate anyone else. I was working on the same principle as the idea that if you are in a lecture room and one person asks a question, then it should be assumed that at least one other person is equally unsure but may not have the confidence to ask. I still feel that we have been maligned for Adolin bashing which as I've said is hypocritical. On the other hand, I did over-react and regardless of my own feelings (or really lack thereof ) regarding Adolin, I don't want people to feel they can't come in and say they like him and the story. I still think they should justify those comments if they want me to engage though. You can't debate feelings unless there's some hard information to back them up. I am not going to say people shouldn't like him. But I am a little sick of being told I am wrong for finding him meh. So I have a different read on this than you implied in your comment so I'm going to lay out my stance on the matter. I am not suggesting that it is the view held by everyone in this thread. 1) I think it is a little unfair to say that Kaladin is inherently supportive of Shallan's dissociation although I agree that he hasn't understood what is going on. When he says this, remember he was in a very bad place and had literally frozen in battle for the first time in years only days before that conversation happened. He is feeling guilty and inadequate because he let men (his men) on both sides of that fight die because he wasn't able to protect them all. He had gone from being able to lie to himself about the nature of war in that it was about "my side" and "the enemy" - and he'd just had to properly confront that "the enemy" might not actually be as clear cut as he'd always thought. I agree him suggesting that her ability to lie to herself being a good thing is not helpful at this stage, but I don't assume that he would think that if a) he realised she now identified herself as 3 people (he doesn't - he sees her as one person) or (b) if he'd already understood that lying to yourself is only a temporary fix when confronting difficult issues. On this note (and not specifically aimed at you @RenegadeShroom) , people keep saying it is ok for Adolin to recognise 3 people in Shallan and I want to point out again that she is not. Assuming she has OSDD (and the parallels are striking) then it needs to be understood that she is one person who has put arbitrary and imaginary walls up within herself to segregate her personality traits. For example, as an academic person (like Shallan) I might be happy reading and learning for the day. I may then go out that evening and have a drink with friends (like Veil). But I am one person doing both of those things and I see myself as a single identity which, like a gemstone may have multiple facets that reflect light in different ways depending on the way the stone is facing. Shallan thinks she is different stones. (2) I don't think I've seen anyone say that Adolin should be responsible for Shallan's healing, only that, given the way writers often portray women in fantasy (tho BS is not one of them in my opinion) it is possible that there will be the idea that Adolin will help her heal because he is her SO. As a woman with a mental health disorder, I must say I resent the idea that when I get better properly (i.e. no longer need treatment/drugs) that my SO (who is amazing and supportive and is doing all the right things) is responsible for that. My recovery is mine. It will be my achievement. He is a stabilising force in my life but not only is he not responsible for my improvement, he is not the cause of it. He might help me stand up after I fall, but I will be standing on my legs afterwards. 3) Please can you point out why you think Shallan is sincere in her love of Adolin? I mean canon evidence plus your interpretation please. In my mind, Shallan is a notorious unreliable narrator as a result of her dissociation. She also made her decision very quickly and it seemed to come almost mid-thought. If you would be so kind, I'd love to see your answers on the following questions; Why do you think so much time was given to the Shallan/Kaladin interactions? Why do you think so much was missed from the Adolin/Shallan interactions (there is a lot off screen)? Do you dismisss Veil's feelings for Kaladin and if so why? Given that Adolin is treating her Alts differently from one another, how would you reconcile this being a good thing for Shallan in the long run? As a point regarding the dominance of alts, the fact that Shallan makes her decision as Veil tries to take over makes me a little suspicious. If the Shallan alt is fighting to remain dominant, she needs a reason and Adolin is that reason. By committing to him, she can cement that aspect into a place of power. This is very much like "Wit's" advice for her to "rule over them" when she interfaces with Ashertmarn. If we assume, for a moment that it is definitely Hoid and that this advice is sound for Roshar, she still has a long way to go in terms of her recovery but she might have made her first steps. It could also be that she has misinterpreted it as "Shallan" the persona needing to rule rather than the complete Shallan needing to hold herself together and resist fracturing. Of course, if we work with the idea that it was Odium speaking those words then it is even more worrying for her. Thoughts? Oh I massively ship Shalladin. But I don't think either Shallan or Kaladin are ready to commit to anyone right now. Assuming their growth is in line with WoR and the foreshadowing in WoR and OB then I still think they are a better bet. If not, well then it's anyones guess and I personally ship Shallan x Stick. I must admit though that I don;t see that much growth in their relationship. It is still fairly light and fluffy much of the time. I don't have my book on me (which is driving me mad, MAAAAAAAAD, *ahem) but I am not sure how many moments of complete honesty they have with one another. When Shallan has her thought about "this place of safety" (sometime when they are on the boat in shadesmar iirc) how deep has their conversation been at that point? As I said, I am aware of some cognitive bias and I really need someone to find these sequences and point them out to me. I doubt there is any professional help. To be honest, mental health provisions are pretty crappy even in countries with state health like the UK. And we have loads more than countries with predominantly private health care. Crazies don't pay well you see...... (jk - I am under the care of a psychiatrist for my depression and fully consider myself crazy) I am also not sure that Shallan is much better after her breakdown with Veil. She is less obviously broken sure, but that's how it works with dissociation, the alt that needs time goes offline for a bit then when it is ready it can come back up again. She clearly dissociates again several times during the battle of TC and even for a while afterwards. She wrestles control from Veil as Shallan and the alts seem to fall in line. What is not clear is how long this situation will last. There are possibilities for inherent conflict in her personality system and that could make things very ugly. Yes I agree that he can identify them. That isn't the problem so much as the fact he treats them differently. I mean for example, when I'm having an off day my SO always spots it. He is supportive but the basic ways he interacts with me don't change. He is maybe more likely to suggest I go and have a bath/shower (because when I'm really off I forget) and he is more likely to cook because I won't eat otherwise, but he'll still point out things on reddit or twitter that he found funny, and he'll try to engage me in discussion about something political etc etc. He is consistent and manages my lack thereof with aplomb. If Adolin was doing this for Shallan then I'd be all for him. The evidence however is that he is not. I said a few things above that might allow for the story to skip whilst having our 3 current mains (Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin) not show any progression. Much as I'd like to see Jasnah really get to grips with being Queen, and Renarin really start being assertive like he is at the end of OB, their progression doesn't have to happen on screen. We may find a lot of minor characters progress as radiants/get squires and they get more confident with their powers in the timeskip but honestly, I don't need to read about every one of Bridge 4 learning to fly. So I think that Adolin hasn't identified this yet - that they are one person. If he did, surely he wouldn't treat them differently? I think Adolin could love the complete Shallan, but she seems to think he couldn't - presumably because she killed her mother and father? As he is also a murderer, that might allow her to open up a bit more about it, but I think that we will see that conversation - it would be way too important to skip surely? That implies that she might have spent a whole year married to him and he still doesn't know that she is a murderer thrice over! (I still think that her obvious remorse and guilt over those murders is a sharp divide between her and Adolin's obvious lack of remorse over Sadeas.) Regarding the bold bit - I agree to a point. Kaladin obviously has no idea she's completely split herself apart as you said, but actually if you notice, he always calls her Shallan to her face even when she looks like Veil or seems to be switching characters without an illusion. She sees them aspects of the whole and knows a good deal more about what Shallan has been through than Adolin does, and he still admires her. She did, after all, tell him everything about her abusive home life that she was consciously aware of when they were in the chasms together. I wonder if, on some level, she avoids him because he actually knows too much and is in a hugely powerful position over her if wanted to hurt her? I'm afraid I don't know what "ITT" means but I very much agree with your final sentence. Kaladin is discerning and not that impulsive. He might just fly off with her, but it cannot be assumed. Yes this. If Shadolin is going to be the thing going forward I would have killed for scenes like this. I just haven't seen them. If anyone thinks they are there PLEASE show me. Mind. literally. blown. You, Sir, are a genius. This is a really good point that we know too little about the differences between spren and therefore the implied differences in their respective Nahel bonds. I also think Pattern won't break like Syl did - it;s already happened. Kaladin breaking the bond with Syl mirrors Shallan killing Pattern as a child - not the other way round. I also agree that your point about seeing things through a lens is crucial. In fact, I was thinking we should all consider doing a role swap for a few days and look for reasons to support Shadolin as is - the wedding the future relarionship etc (and assume that the arc is closed) to see if with a bit of digging we can get some insight into the "other side's" thinking. It would also be a good lesson in how to avoid cognitive bias. If anyone wants to try this let me know - a proper debate with solid evidence on both sides would be very helpful. Ideally we'd have a Shadolin shipper try to support Shalladin and vice versa imo - it would make things more equal. Ooh that's a possibility. I had assumed that LW were a group that got their plate on the 5th ideal but add to it the issue of soul casting and you are probably right! That makes me think - what if soulcasting well requires that you also know yourself well? It would explain how Jasnah soulcasts like a boss but also how she manifests objects in the cognitive realm - storms she managed to make part of the castle appear on her very first try. Jasnah Kholin definitely knows her own mind so is perhaps more comfortable with manipulating the perceptions of others/other things in the cognitve realm. Shallan does not know her own mind so her soulcasting is less impressive. Oh one thing that comes to mind is the difference in how Wit and Shallan approach taking on an identity and I was wondering what others thought; Did anyone else notice in the epilogue that Wit took "others'" pain etc and used it to cloak himself whereas everything Shallan does comes from her? This reminded me of a scene that we got near the beginning of WoR where Tyn says something like "You really get into those drawings" and Shallan replies "No I put others into them"? What if she should be putting others into them - using her understanding of human nature and experience to flesh out her creations but currently she only uses her own and it hurts to do so because she keeps reopening old wounds, healing them, then opening them again throughout the fight? Wonderful synopsis. Have an upvote. I must admit to hoping to see more of the interactions between spren and their radiants. We saw a bit of Jasnah and Ivory - and I must admit that whilst it was more clinical than eg Syl Kaladin, it was a good deal more personal than Shallan/Pattern sometimes is. I am sorry abut Shallan and Pattern but I think she will stop hating the blade (she doesn't hate Pattern - she hates the blade - she's separated the two in her mind like she's separated her identities) eventually - likely as a part of her progression towards the 5th Ideal. I think she needs to understand the ramifications of her 4th ideal first though. On that note, I am not sure we will see her progress in terms of level in book 4. I think we will get her level up in book 5. I think the issue here is primarily that we literally don't see the reasons. They rarely get mentioned. There is too little canon evidence given when people make their assertions regarding Adolin. I don't much care whether you love Adolin or not but if you want to convince me why you think you are right I'm going to need more than just your feelings. Quote a passage, relate it to others in the books and explain your interpretation which is how you got to those feelings. Only then can there be any meaningful discussion. lol, I will, no doubt say those very words myself when I have to give birth (side note, its a really icky process - and looks exceedingly unappealing to me - why do people do it more than once??.) As a point, I think I am still not quite making myself quite clear. I am exceedingly competitive and brought up to believe that only top marks were acceptable. To me, as a result, an achievement is something that no-one (or at least very few people) else can accomplish. More or less everyone ends up having kids. That makes it "ordinary" and not thus something I'd describe as an "achievement". I do think raising kids well is one though - my cousin has a son and he's a great kid - very well behaved but in a natural and good way. He's just a genuinely cool kid - also his English, which is not his native language, is amazing for his age - storms, it amazing for anyone frankly. So she has achieved something there because not everyone can be a great parent. If your kids turn out to be decent people because of how you raised them (rather than despite it as most people seem to be) then that is an achievement I can get behind!

I suppose I wasn't that clear. Sorry! I am not saying that he isn't voidbinding, so much as I am not sure - aside from "The Page"- that it is supported by in-book references. Would we have assumed it was "voidbinding" if "The Page" hadn't been a thing? I agree with @FeatherWriter that "The Page" pulls us towards voidbinding - and I agree that we need more info. Seeing a Fused Truthwatcher would be useful, but I suppose it would be difficult to see them use their powers (other than progression) from a non-PoV perspective I don't feel I know or understand nearly enough about the differences between void binding and surge binding - there are people here who have a much better feel for the magic system than I do who I will happily defer to. My own instinct is that because we know that resonance is a thing between two surges, perhaps by having a corrupted spren, it is the resonance that is most affected? What if "traditional" truthwatchers saw the truth of people's past/present as their resonant power, but voidbringers saw the future? Maybe Renarin uses the surges normally but "voidbinds" only in his resonant power? I just wonder perhaps, if each Unmade is linked to a specific KR order in some way (with one KR order unlinked because.... reasons?) if by having a corrupted spren as his bonded spren, this would be enough for Brandon to point to the page? I got the impression that the fact that the Truthwatcher and Bondsmith analogues on The Page were in gem-type shapes - and separated from their surges (they don't have lines connecting them), that perhaps those Unmade had been trapped in the past? If Sja-Anat was one of them, (although I see her more linked to what I think willshapers will be like) perhaps not only has that allowed her to break from Odium (she was separated from him and so became more independent?) but it might suggest that she previously was involved in allowing voidbinding in some way. I don't know. I feel I am reaching to include voidbinding at this stage, I am not a good theory-crafter though. I'm much happier looking for canon evidence to support of refute a theory made by someone else.

@Greywatch 1) The goalposts haven't changed - People are expressing different opinions and occasionally opinions change - its the point of debate. 2) The thread has shifted over time because of that discussion. If some people have chosen to stay because of something but others have chosen to leave - that it going to result in a change to the direction of the thread. Nothing anyone can do about it. People can come in here and debate all they like but I can't force them to if they don't want to. 3) You came into the thread, attacked us for being anti Adolin and putting people off posting here and THEN get all offended when we point out that no-one here is going to pander to that. YOU are a moderator which gives you power. You can influence the direction of people's thoughts. You may have stopped people posting anti Adolin stuff because of what you said and that is suppressing their freedom of speech. We aren't doing that because this is only one thread - but you are going to potentially stop people posting it anywhere in the forum. That's not ok. I apologise for implying you were a snowflake. It was very wrong of me to do so. I will admit that I did let my emotions get the better of me. You should, however be aware that at least one person took your post as a personal insult and that is worse than anyone here insulting Adolin, no matter how much anyone relates to him. On that note, ladies and gents, I'm going to retire for the evening (or get banned, you know) but I look forward to reading through your thoughts later.

Sorry this is just not true. The DSM has a clear definition and psychiatrists and psychologists have clear recommendations made to them about management for people with DID and related disorders. It hasn't become a mainstream topic because mental health is poorly addressed by society as a whole. Again, not true. She doesn't hallucinate. Hallucinations are defined as situations where you experience a phenomenon (sight/sound/taste/touch) in the absence of an actual stimulus that provokes that sensation. Shallan's illusions are real because others can see and hear them. It is magic, sure, but her use of magic is no more madness than us displaying pictures via projector. I do agree that her illusions have made her more able to identify as different people, but that doesn't mean she has divided herself significantly differently to how a RL person would. I have sympathy with both sides of this argument. I do agree that authors shouldn't be limited as to how they write, but at the same time, a responsible person doesn't shout fire in a crowded theatre unless there is one. You are completely right that we are responsible for our own interpretations, but Brandon has some responsibility there to because he wrote the book in such a way as to lead us to them. When addressing complex issues such as mental healh disorder - particularly ones which little or no coverage, it is really imprtant to consider all the possible outcomes of your writing. This means that he could very easily come out and say something like "This is not a real disease, Shallan is a fictional character and regardless of what happens to her I do not want people to assume she is written to be a role model or that her decisions are the right ones". That doesn't mess up the book, or imply that her outcome is wrong. It highlights the fact that he is not truly using a real world analogue without giving away whether her solution is right for her or not. It kills the discussion here but also reduces the risk of someone using Shallan as a guide for a healthy solution to a very real problem. @DimChatz I am nominating you for official thread cheerleader. I hope you have your own pompoms? People are vulnerable to this. It is a great tool in the kit for staying alive when you are a hunter gather living on the plains of Africa in the Stone Age. Its not so good when you have a problem and are looking for ways to justify your planned behaviour.

Fair enough, though I think that given that each of our known KRs actually fit them well they are probably at least as reliable as the descriptions given in the in world Words of Radiance. That was written long after the Recreance after all. We need some evidence from canon or we could say literally anything is possible. The least well fitting seems to be Shallan (Honest Creative) but then she does need to speak truths.

I do agree, but I wouldn't take it too much to heart - some of the rage/despair is part of the grieving process. Most people will likely end up agreeing with you, it just sometimes takes a while to get there On top of that, hearing about people celebrating the sinking of the Shalladin is annoying, so people are reacting to that in a visceral/defensive manner. It will get better once the community stabilises. In a few weeks we'll all be much more rational. In the meantime, it is still raw and emotional, and that is actually a (backhanded) compliment to Sanderson's writing because we all were so invested and believe that he is capable of being one of the truly great writers that will stand the test of time. As Wit said, all art is hated.

I mean't to adress this too - Thanks @insert_anagram_here for putting this together. Also @Starla I must admit that whilst I am probably not convinced (c) is the most likely outcome I am fully aware that my personal preference is getting in my way of being rational about it. I also was not mad about the Mistborn love story, and I found Elend a bit meh initially, but that plot didn't get anywhere near the amount of page time this one has. I didn't care much about who she chose, I was just invested in her being awesome and saving the world etc. I would like to think I'm on the SS Shalladin ship because I'm on team "Shallan being awesome" - or in my mind herself. I like Shallan, she has her bad moments but that makes more likeable, not less. We are our flaws as much as our strengths. I think my lack of love for Adolin partly stems because his flaws are either less profound, or he hides them from us when we get his PoV. He just isn't flawed enough. As an exceedingly flawed individual myself, I find him difficult to relate to. Oh, also don't leave us if you decide to start a Shallan appreciation thread I also second your request of @Stormlightning Yes I see what you mean. I have run out of upvotes. Again.... I can't see how this works. If Shallan is better then her recovery is an overly romantic fiction that simply makes no sense. If it is, then I will have serious problems going forward. I can't even watch medical dramas anymore because they are too unrealistic. Why take my fantasy books away from me too But we all know women are clearly useless without their big strong men to make everything better. I mean, come on they have like, periods and uteruses and hormones. They can't possibly be expected to cope on their own....... /s I think I am actually more worked up over this one. Not that i think it is ok to pidgeonhole women, but I know Sanderson has written strong women in the past and will likely do so in the future. I'll be annoyed if Shallan doesn't prove to be one of them, but I'll live. The literary stuff though, that bugs me. It means he has been stringing me along and I hate being lied to. It will mean I can't analyse his word choices or his moments of supposed foreshaowing because I won't be able to trust him anymore. That takes all the enjoyment out of the book for me. I am not good at just reading, I analyse as I go, I make notes on my book, I reference previous books. I'm really weird. I can cope with plots going in unexpected directions and then finding out that the foreshadowing was there all along, I am happy to have characters do unexpected things but I really hate the idea that an author would go out of their way to deliberately mislead me. If he didn't want the Shalladin thing to be a, well, thing. Then he needed to nip it in the bud earlier in OB. Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently studying Medicine, whilst in my mid thirties, and I am in the Middle East. I am very sick of being told my tutors that I don't really want to be a [insert medical specialty here] - I should be a GP so I can look after my future babies....... It makes me mad as hell. I am not anti the idea of children, but I'm not crazy about it either. If a womans wants kids then more power to her. As Jasnah would say, her strength should lie in her power to choose. If I end up as a GP it should be because that is what I want, not because I am a walking uterus. Ok, so I see your point, and I was maybe too harsh. I was thinking about the 15 year old I helped deliver of a baby a few months ago. She didn't choose to get pregnant. It was a complete mistake. She was still going out and drinking/smoking right up to the end doing god knows what harm to the foetus. I don't blame a teenager for being selfish, but then you shouldn't get pregnant if you cant identify with the idea of putting someone else first. Your achievement was that you chose. I can get behind that as an achievement because it is empowering in a society where many people push you into the idea of wanting kids. It is ok to want kids, it is great if they make you a better person, it is fantastic if you feel that they broaden your scope and understanding as a person. But none of things are a good reason to want them. It should happen because you are ready and you make the choice. I think this is kind of what I meant, I can see raising a child is amazing and that it is an achievement because it is storming hard. I was more feeling that the physical act of getting one is less so because literally anyone can manage it. I am not a parent myself (obviously) though I am prepared to concede that I may change my mind about how I feel on this should I have children in the future. Don't panic yet - Vin's arc is done, Shallan's isn't yet. I know he has a plan, but it is still subject to change. Yes I agree. I guess I would be more than happy with the idea of this if it was written in a ChickLit book but that isn't why I read Fantasy. It is fine if it works within the genre, but it needs to be believable because so much of the rest of the story is inherently unbelievable. To be fair, until SA4 is out we can't be sure he means for it to be taken this way. We may find WoBs come out if he thinks people are taking it in a potentially dangerous way. He is not trying to cause harm, he wants to tell stories. I don't think it needs to be quite so dramatic - I can see why you say that though. In addiction, hitting "rock bottom" is often the way people finally get the clarity they need to start the healing process. I am not sure that is strictly necessary with OSDD. Though I would definitely defer to @FuzzyWordsmith's experience in that. I just think it could be argued that someone like Shallan may be capable of getting out of it without another crash. It probably does need to be a bad moment though. I also find it funny that female writers tend to make their male characters "perfect". *cough cough* Adolin anyone?? This. Waiting for more upvotes then you are getting one. @Prelude welcome welcome to the (?sinking) SS Shalladin. You are most welcome. Have a cookie. You have found yourself a group of like minded people. I think that pretty much everyone here is feeling very similarly to you and this is our way of coping with it. I think it is interesting that you mentioned that the only time you recognised Shallan was on the boat - am I right in thinking you mean when she got excited about the Mandras and their relationship to luckspren? She was talking to Kaladin at the time........

I must admit I've wondered about this to, though in a slightly different format. I do agree that there may be an element of confirmation bias. I remember when it seemed to be most popular to link Adolin to the Willshapers but now Maya is a cultivationspren, everyone is jumping on the Edgedancer train. Not that I think he doesn't fit, but addressing such cognitive biases is an important part of defending a theory. We could also wonder if the fact that he is carrying Maya has made him more like an Edgedancer. What if, instead of him being his normal self, his character is being subtly altered over time (one might say "cultivated") to be fitting for a cultivationspren? Would he know? Would anyone know? Back to the idea of the confirmation bias, I think it would be a valuable exercise to try and see how well Adolin would fit with the traditional/known models we have for each order of the KR. I for one, think he'd make a pretty good Windrunner. He is honourable (aside from killing Sadeas - and no, I don't think its ok), and he does protect people by leading his mean from the front. He definitely has traits that fit with "Protecting" and "Leading". We know that Syl would be appalled by the murder though and I am reasonably certain we have a WoB on this. I think he fits less well with the Skybreakers. Murder aside, he doesn't strike me as being particularly "Just" - he isn't unjust, but it isn't something I think anyone would immediately say about Adolin - he rails against having to follow the codes for one thing. I don't think he fits the Dustbringers that well (Careful and Obedient) - either from their traits or from what we've seen of Malata. He doesn't seem willing to watch the world burn. Edgedancers - so I think the ideals work just fine, but I am not so mad on the "Loving" and "Healing" element of it. He isn't unloving, but I am not so sure he is more loving than others round him. The healing thing though does fit with how he handles Kaladin's battle shock. That being said, any soldier worth their salt knows how to handle battleshock like that in others. We see Kaladin manage it with Dabbid in tWoK. And he isnt an edgedancer. Truthwatcher - "Learned, Giving" but we don't know the oaths. I am not seeing this one at all. He does give the blade and plate to Kaladin in WoR I suppose? But Learned is not Adolin's thing. He doesn't seem massively tactful to the point of appearing esoteric either. Lightweaver. - No. just..... no. Elsecaller: "Wise, Careful". Seem to be more likely to be scholars? Nope, cant see this one either. Willshaper "Resolute, Builder" known for being the most varied except for their love of adventure. I can see this one, though perhaps not more than Edgedancer. Stoneward: Dependable, Resourceful. Yes, definitely to this one. He is both of these. He has also walked away from some "unwinnable" battles. I don't think the stonewards only fought when they thought they might die after all.... Bondmith: Pious, Guiding. Nope again. He also struggles to keep to the Codes, even though he sees their importance. So of the 10, I think we have 3 or 4 that might fit based on personality alone. It does include Edgedancers of course.

True.... it would be very concerning. When you put it like that, I just can't see it happening that way - I mean, Sanderson doesn't normally foreshadow for no reason and he rarely uses "red herrings". When he does use them, their use is very temporary. When I re-read the Mistborn series I was struck with how layered the indication of the eventual outcome were. Sanderson has improved as a write since then, so I cannot see how that could even be a thing. This works for me. They are supposed to put strength before weakness etc. I think this might reflect the fact that they need to stand alone and grow independently before they can truly suceed in progressing as KR. I am not certain that it is specifically related to their respective ships at the moment. I am happy to discuss that point though - does anyone have any strong feelings on the matter?

Well, I see where you are going but put it like this, we see almost every interaction they have. There is not a huge amount of interaction between them that happens off screen. This is a good contrast to Adolin and Shallan who spend a lot of time off screen together. I mean, we don't even see their wedding. From a writer's perspective, it s the scenes they write that matter more than the behind the scenes action. The "invisible book" of Adolin and Shallan's dates for example, are not important interactions in Brandon's mind - at least regarding the story arc as a whole so we don't get to watch them. On the other hand, with two notable exceptions (i.e the walk back from the chasms after the high storm and opening the oathgate in Thaylenah) we see even tiny moments of interaction between Kaladin and Shallan. Those exceptions are interesting because it should be a situation where they interact with much less conflict and also a greater understanding of each other. Indeed, Kaladin lies to Dalinar about the chasmfiend after meeting Shallan's eyes for a moment when they get back from the chasms. What did they talk about? Oh it probably wasn't interesting to be honest but it also clearly wasn't about pretending that Kaladin didn't kill a chasmfiend almost single handed with Shallan's shardblade and scheming about what they were going to tell people about the highstorm. The flight to Thaylenah was less interesting though - and perhaps an indication where he is eventually heading. Why don't we ever see either of them think about it? Shallan never even thinks about flying as amazing from what I remember? I mean seriously? Who goes flying across half a continent then forgets it even happened? Kaladin doesn't seem to think about it much either, but it can't have gone poorly or he'd definitely have thought about that. BS actually goes out of his way to put them in situations together where there is no specific reason to have them there. Was there a reason Shallan was better than Renarin for going to Thaylenah? Why even have the chasm sequence? Why have them meet before she gets to the Shattered Plains then have a massive argument when she arrives? Why have them attempt to infiltrate the Palace at Kholinar together? Why have Kaladin guard them on the way to the menagerie (he could easily have found out about the plan for the duel with Sadeas any other number of ways)? What about how they both think about each other at odd moments without anything specific setting them off? I could go on. We could so easily have more of Adolin - especially more of Adolin/Shallan in WoR and have them start off being annoying/nauseating etc but then get to a point where there is genuine understanding between them. Why not send him into the chasm instead, or have Shallan and Adolin have more poignant moments at the end of WoR or OB (eg have him go and get her from the field rather than Jasnah). The thing that upsets me most about that WoB though, is that it implies that the SS Shalladin is truly dead in the water - I mean, they can't progress as a ship if they do stop interacting now ("interacting together for the next few books"). On the other hand it could imply that they will stop being an interesting relationship to write about by the ends of SA5. That may mean SS Shalladin is alive and well, but I for one am not feeling too hopeful after "Without you I fade".

I think he meant "added to the physical realm" rather than added to the system as a whole. For one thing, we know perpendicularuties are, to all intents and purposes "wormwholes" where you can use the cognitive realm to travel great distance - in my mind this is a bit like subspace in Star Trek. Do we know this or has it been inferred? Not arguing, I just didn't realise we knew that much about it, Ok, so assuming that is true, wouldn't there be a bit of a problem with the idea of it never running out? I mean, in theory, you'd just make sure everything would end up in a black hole, set up the perpendicularity such that you change all energy/matter into investiture in the spiritual realm, then use that to recreate the system all over again? We have a concept of heat death in our universe, should there not be an analogue to this idea in the Cosmere? I am still interested in the idea of the perpendicularities being possibly like white holes - if investiture is being converted from black holes and those singularities are/could be perpendicularities it would allow at least a bit of recycling to happen in the system.

WOW peeps. I am so impressed with this thread and every day it is just getting better. Also, OMG, catching up my messages and this thread alone took me 3 hours. Real Life is starting to get in the way of my Sharding.... Captain?? Please no, I get lost if I go a few streets away to buy milk. I can't be trusted to steer or navigate or, you know, pretty much anything. I will volunteer to be ship's cat. How about that? In keeping with the ship metaphor; in terms of what I get from the general sentiment on this thread is that those of us sailing on the 'good ship Shalladin', most of us rather feel that we were were sailing with a good tail wind into new waters but that we were going to end up at a land of plenty and promise. The end of Oathbringer has actually left us becalmed at sea (a la The Ancient Mariner) miles from shore and we're running out of drinking water. It isn't that we landed at the "Island of Adolin" which, whilst not where we thought we were heading is a rich and plentiful land with fantastic hair, it is that even the ship's lookout hasn't spotted land yet. At this point, I think many, if not most of us would gladly give up on Shalladin if there was dry land ahead where we could at least re-stock, recuperate and reconnoitre before getting back on board and sailing into oblivion. At least that way we could go down with the ship with good memories. No-one want to die of thirst and sunburn. Wow this is depressing line of thought. I really hope that adultery isn't going to happen, it would really upset me that Kaladin could betray Adolin like that after he's managed to get over his prejudice against him. Kaladin is a better man than that. On the other hand, I'd forgive Adolin for straying if Shallan is being.... 'difficult' because he could end up in a really tragic situation. I'd forgive Shallan herself because it isn't her fault if she is unwell. Not me, without further information I fully expect to remain on this ship and go mad with thirst. (I am seriously hoping for WoB or another book like Edgedancer to give us more info to go on). I agree - I really can't see him doing this. Motherhood is something often viewed as inevitable for women - and it is a societal given that all women must like babies. HAve you ever seen a baby? They are pretty gross. Children don;t really get interesting until they are probably about 4 or 5 when they can at least do the basics for themselves and can actually start to think like actual humans rather than slightly clever and talkative dogs. Seriously though, the whole thing of "the best thing I've achieved is having children" idea is ridiculous - having a child may be very rewarding, but it is hardly an achievement. Anyone can have kids - jellyfish have offspring for goodness sake. A Nobel prize is an achievement, a degree is an achievement. Storms, getting an A at school is an achievement. Having kids.... not so much - raising them on the other hand is - which is probably why so many people make a mess of it. I understand where you are coming from, and certainly confronting issues is the more healthy way of handling things. The problem for Shallan is that she has never learned how to really. It is implied that her early childhood was horrific (she had progressed as a surgebinder quite far according to WoB before she killed her mother). This sets up all kinds of possibilities for poor coping mechanisms including mentally putting ones head in the sand. Indeed, putting your head in the sand is probably an easy option to learn when a kid is very small because they lack the understanding, language and self-awareness to do much else. In Shallan's case, she probably had so many knocks that she never got the opportunity to learn to do anything else. True, true. I quite like him staying as a side and light character - he offers a normalcy we get from very few other PoV characters. I'd be sorry to lose that. I flip flop on him being a good dad. Most of the time I'm like 'of course Adlin would be a good dad - he interacts so naturally with people'. Then I read people talking about how tragic his own childhood was (it wasn't all sunshine and roses, but I don't think it was as bad as people suggest and it certainly wasn't as bad as Renarin's) and wonder if this means he might be a terrible father figure. I suppose we'll just have to see. Ok, for the purposes of this I am going to name the child Frank. Because you can't stop me: Frank: Mom, can I go outside and play? Shallan: Sure Frankie, just don't go too far from the house. Frank: But, mom, I want to go and watch the flying men. Veil: Oh, well that's fine. Actually I might come with you. Frank: MOM, you told daddy that you weren't going to do that anymore. Radiant: So I did. Well in that case you can just stay here and learn your sword stances properly. You still aren't getting Vinestance right. Frank: Mom.......... This is a very good point actually. Marriage is almost a necessity for Vorin men because how are they supposed to interact with others at a distance without being able to read and write. Really? You realise that there are very few places on this forum where it is ok to not think Adolin is God's gift right? It isn't even possible to have a rational conversation about his flaws without the heroworshippers getting on your case sometimes. I am not suggesting that it is right to ostracize someone for their opinion - quite the reverse, but most of us are here a lot because there is no other thread that allows us to say things like "Adolin Kholin bores me to tears". On top of that, most of us have become more anti Adolin as a result of the community than because of how we felt about him in the books. After a while of being able to vent here, I generally end up feeling more pro-Adolin, though not pro Shadolin (which as has been pointed out is mostly because of the perceived issues with Shallan, not Adolin himself). It is ok to not like a ship whilst still liking the character. On top of that I really feel that you have summarised the whole thread as being one about supporting the Shalladin ship despite everything, which is disingenuous because it is very clear that the vast majority of us, and I'd even go so far as to say everyone who is regularly posting here now, is not what we've been saying at all. Anyone is welcome here to come and tell us they love Adolin and why they love him. They can come and support their ship with canon evidence. They likely won't convert many of us here because we've already read the evidence and come down on the Shalladin side, but they can discuss their perspective. There is, however, a large body of people in the SA reading community who simply like Adolin better and ship Shadolin for that reason. Its fine to do that, but it isn't something that can be discussed in any way because it is based purely on personal preference. If they come here with an interpretation of a scene, and can rationalise something from it that supports Shadolin using the tricks that we know BS uses as a writer (eg foreshadowing) then we will listen, debate and likely respect that person for it. I am here for the intellectual discussion personally and I don't see why I should have to be nice to Adolin simply because it might hurt someone's feelings. He isn't a real person. This is the kind of thing I'm getting at. Adolin is not "extremely self refective". He's alright. He does it a bit but nothing out of the ordinary in my opinion. If you are going to say this kind of thing we want evidence. Give me something I can get my teeth into. As a percentage of time in Adolin's PoV, how much time does he actually spend analysing his own behavior? What are some example of his actions that show he is reflecting and learning? In comparison with other characters is he doing it more or less frequently? I am prepared to believe I am wrong about Adolin being "extremely self reflective" but I am saying that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. I say Adolin is normal. This is not an extraordinary claim - basically by definition. Yet no-one who supports Adolin is prepared to provide sufficient evidence to make me change my mind. In contrast, I read through and briefly participated in the Maya thread on this forum. I was not mad on the idea that he would be an edgedancer but there is a good body of evidence regarding things about his behavior that does lead me to conclude that it is a likely outcome. I may not like it, but the evidence is there. So I changed my position. I think most people here are exactly the same. Ok, so I'm a little lost here, because at least from my perspective this is the opposite of the general consensus of this thread. We think it is bad for both of them, but more that Shallan is not currently worthy of Adolin (most of us think she chose him for the wrong reasons). Most of us like Kaladin as an option better - but not at this point. Whether or not we have vague hopes for the future is moot because we have no evidence that it will happen. I could still like Harry/Hermione better than Ron/Hermione (Cursed Child aside) but as the books are finished I simply have to cope with the idea that my preferred outcome didn't happen. That doesn't make my preference any less valid. We haven't finished SA so, unlike that scenario, we are still free to consider possible ways for Shalladin to happen and use canon evidence to back it up. Just because we don't lean in one direction doesn't mean we dismiss Adolin as a valuable character, it means we dismiss him as the better partner for Shallan. Not likeing a character doesn't make them valueless. Sadeas had great value, but I think there are very people who liked him. Anyone who places Adolin's value solely in the light of his romantic arc with Shallan is doing him a disservice. I disagree. They can be different. You are ignoring the idea of character development. The "in the future" statement inherently relies on the characters taking a particular path. If they don't follow it, then their development will be so different as to make the idea that they should be together laughable. This is the core of the argument of Shadolin vs Shalladin. Most of us on the Shalladin side feel that, if Shallan and Kaladin continue in the direction they they both been heading, then they should end up together - this is based on how we have interoreted the foreshadowing and mutual understanding. If however, one or both of them deviate, then Shalladin probably won't happen. Now I know I am probably going to come off as being very antagonistic at this stage, but I am genuinely sick of being told that we have to be nice to the Adolin-lovers out there, but nothing is being done to stop them from attacking us for not thinking he is the bees knees. People need to stop being such snowflakes about fictional characters. @SLNC I agree with everything you said in your post, on this subject as well. I agree with your point to an extent, but I kinda want to come down in the middle of this argument. Shallan is capable of being a much better person than we often see her be. I think this is partly why people judge her harshly. She has had very few advantages when it comes to behaving well, so I think it is fair to excuse her to an extent, but she also calls people (eg Kaladin) out when their behaviour is equally bad, so she does know it is wrong. I think that because she is young, she doesn't necessarily see the hypocrisy she is occasionally guilty of (well we've all been there) so that makes her situation understandable, but it doesn't mean we have to condone it. I do agree though that she needs to sort out who she is before she can consider dealing with how she manages societal norms! I agree she kind of defaulted, but I am not convinced this her true default behavior. She is much nicer to the sailors on the Wind's Pleasure. I think she is "pulling a Dalinar" and trying to persuade herself and everyone around her that there aren't any feelings for Kaladin there. Definitely not, No Siree. Nothing to see here, move along..... I agree that he's have slower on the uptake than Adolin, though I personally wouldn't categorise it as suspicious in this setting. I think Kaladin being a natural self-critic would probably be more inclined to not believe that she was actually being serious and she'd have had to work much harder to convince him. He also likely would have put up road bocks like "er the end of the world is going on" and "I'm never going to be here because....Windrunner" or "hello, I'm darkeyed and you're 4th dahn" etc I think this is why he settles into acceptance here so easily. He probably never really considered it an option - more like a fantasy that was fun while it lasted. I mean, everything in his life has not ended up as he thought, why would this be any different? Personally I'm not so certain. I think Kaladin is pretty introverted and inclined to navel-gazing. Thats part of his core personality to my mind - his depression is a consequence of his experiences and the way his personality makes him handle his stresses. Also, given that he developed depression as an adolescent is indicative of it being part of his core personality (it could be called endogenous). If he'd struggled later in life it would be more likely the direct result of a life changing event. Oh no, please continue. I know this is the A/S/K thread but the great thing about shipping is that you can tie almost anything to it. The more varied the discussion the better imo. Excellent point. Have an upvote. I do agree he is learning. It takes time to overcome personality flaws though. I am please to see him trying which is a huge step from where he was before. @Stormlightning I'd personally like to hear your reasons for being on the SS Shadolin. If you don't feel comfortable airing them here. feel free to PM me. Yes, very much this. To me, this is the best evidence for Shalladin and the strongest case against Shadolin. Why tease us for 2 books if this is where we end up? I am on SS Shalladin as the proud ships's cat though so I am a little (*cough*) biased.