PhineasGage

So I love this idea but I think it isn't quite there yet. I was under the impression that electrum gave you the ability to look at yourself in the future if I understood correctly. Not that it matters per se - presumably because Shallan is accessing the future options another way. Bit of a problem is she is seeing the future (it is of Odium on Roshar after all) even if she is doing so unconsciously. I had always assumed that what Shallan was doing was "illuminating" the ideal person possible to each of the deserters. Perhaps she is actually illuminating a possibly future for them if they make the "right" choices to get there? She potentially is "seeing" a long way past a few seconds then. I actually thought this was what Renarin does when he heals Adolin (and Adolin sees a vision of himself perfected). We now know Renarin can see the future - but perhaps Shallan's vision of it is so much less obvious that it doesn't count as a problem? Or we need to watch her for Odium corruption.... Regarding Emperor's Soul: I agree. I think the coldness moments are straightforwrd dissociations. They are "normal" in periods of stress. I also agree that both Shallan and Adolin wear masks, but I think Shallan's is kept on longer than Adolin's. We see her lie repeatedly to him and still play the same role, even after he has essentially dropped his mask. Given that Jasnah would have included her family in her search for Urithiru, it seems odd to me that Shallan would do so little to get their assistance in this matter - but she goes out of her way to avoid asking them for help. The closest she gets is asking Navani (which fails) but she never seems to broach the actual subject of her "quest" to Adolin, let alone anyone else in the Kholin household. I get that she was worried about revealing her skills as a surgebinder, but I'm not sure that being open with them would have caused her any trouble? Um, is he saying what I think he's saying? Am I back to whining about the end or not? Quick aside - "schizo" is not a helpful or kind term - please don't use it. Firstly, it refers to a completely different psychiatric condition and secondly it is also derogatory. I hope I can explain. Shallan is not 3 people. She is 1 person. She has one body which she can alter the appearance of via an illusion but she is still one person. She has 3 identities that see themselves as individuals. Think of yourself - you probably identify in multiple ways - eg your role within your family, your job / school identity, and perhaps a club/organisation you belong to - even a political party for example. Shallan's situation is that rather than identify all the aspects of herself in one ovrarching identity, she splits them apart and gives them different names. They have different behaviour and thought patterns because she has also separated some of her personality traits to go with each identity to make each one more robust for its role in her life. She is not aware she has done this, and she does not know that they are all facets of a single whole. So in order to clarify, she is one persom, but she sees herself as three. Make sense? As an aside, schizophrenia is not related to having multiple identities or "split minds" (despite its name) - it is a psychotic condition that causes hallucinations and formal thought disorder. Its causes and management are completely different to Shallan's case. The person with schizophrenia will only have one core identity and does not separate elements of their core personality. Yeah this is really interesting. To me he seems to be pointing to the idea almost that "opposites attract" - not in a specific sense, but I kind get the idea that he wants spren to specifically be interested in things that they don't instinctively get. Does that make sense? I'm an atheist and find religion faith fascinating because I just don;t get it - and I kind of feel he's aiming at that here? Wait, does that make me a spren? Mind. Blown. So if Highspren are intrinsically interested in the law, are they essentially chaos spren?

Um, as a point, her situation up until the end of OB is written very like a textbook case of a disorder called OSDD which is related to dissociative identity disorder (which used to be called multiple personality disorder). There are a number of variations to this condition and Shallan fits this IRL diagnosis very well. Depending on whether Sanderson chooses to continue her on a path that would mimic RL OSDD or not will depend on whether Adolin is good for her. If Adolin continues to identify her identities as separate, then he will make things worse for Shallan in the long term if Sanderson continues to use OSDD for inspiration. It doesn't mean Adolin will always be bad for her or anything, but his current mode of thinking there is a real Shallan and being drinking buddies with Veil etc is the worst thing you can do for someone with OSDD. Anyway. Regarding Shallan, I really like her. I find her funny some of the time (though her jokes when she is relaxed are much better) and I can relate to her insecurities. I do want to point out that she wears a mask, especially for Adolin (tho she does it to an extent with everyone), to make herself more suitable as his betrothed, and this makes her feel more 2D when she is in company. Her studies, her need to prove herself, her desire to get to Urithiru and her difficulty reconciling the different aspects of her character with the role she feels she has to play make her very interesting to me. And also very believable. I don't think I was particularly like Shallan when I was her age or anything, but as a woman, I can see her reflect some of the girls I knew at that age and also some aspects of myself. I certainly wouldn't expect her to be universally popular - she's too complex for that - but I am surprised anyone would find her unbelievable. Can I ask what specific issues you had that made her feel unrealistic?

Sorry, I am not sure why you pointed this out as it is exactly what I said? I even said that the interpretation could vary within an individual over time because they will obviously change through experience. I'm not sure we are arguing this? Can't be - Skar isn't glowing in the Rock PoV chapter and neither is Rock himself (he does so for the first time in that chapter). That's one of the things commented on because Skar doesn't understand why he doesn't draw for ages. He's an original member too - its got to be to do with some perception thing on his end - Kaladin views them all essentially in the same way. Whether or not a new recruit is quick to start depends on them more than anything and whether Kaladin has accepted them I think. I think my point is that because perception is so important, anyone who doesn't quite reach the requirements to glow won't manage it. It might be something as simple as believing that they are good enough? Perhaps that is why Hobber doesn't glow until Kaladin convinces him he is worth it?

I think that these points of yours have been answered exceptionally well on this thread already, but I wanted to add one thought that I haven't seen. You said that you found Kaladin's actions frustrating and wondered why he couldn't cope. Trust me (as someone who struggles with depression) that he not only feels the same way about himself, but he beats himself up more than anyone else ever could. Depression was characterised by JK Rowling as dementors which suck all the happiness out of you leaving only bad thoughts. It's not quite how I'd describe it myself, but it is certainly adequate - Imagine every time you think about yourself or your actions you can only think about negative things. It isn't that you have good thoughts and ignore them, the good thoughts disappear completely. For me, a major turning point for Kaladin happens when he smiles thinking about the boots and Shallan shortly before he levels up. I actually think that brief positive moment was vital for him to lift the fog of the depression just long enough to understand why letting Elhokar was so wrong. I also thought this was what happened but do we have confirmation from WoB or anything else? I mean, he worse the other illusion just fine and that also covered his scars. I completely agree. Storms, I freeze even without additional stress on my worst days. Put it this way, I'd have definitely frozen trying to get out of the Tailor's shop to even go to the palace - the fact he gets that far is amazing. I think he probably would have frozen even if he didn't have depression though - he had always tricked himself into believing the enemy needed to be killed. Once he identified with both sides a block was inevitable - he had to face a truth he hadn't actually accepted yet.

So don't get me wrong, Adolin's life isn't sunshine and cake, but I think people assume he and Renarin had almost identical childhoods. They didn't - Dalinar is much more distant to Renarin - he can't even remember his name when Evi visits him! He doesn't bother to advise Evi regarding choosing a name and he regularly think of him as "the other one" or the "cripple" rather than use his name. He is not a good father to Adolin in all kinds of ways, but he does show Adolin attention and approval as a kid - something Renarin never seems to get from him. That might not seem like that much, but to a character like Adolin who tends to be optimistic, it was likely enough. He clearly idolized his father so approval was worth a huge amount to him - and we see him get it at least once. I know Dalinar says he "hates" his sons after Evi's death, but actually hate often does less damage than indifference, and anyway, he dealt with it relatively quickly in comparison with how much time the boys had lived. I'm not excusing Dalinar' treatment of Adolin, but I do think it is unfair to equate Renarin's childhood to Adolin's. Remember that epilepsy was often seen as a sign of madness in medieval times so it is possible that Renarin was locked up the way Taln had been. Even if he wasn't treated that badly, it is heavily implied that Renarin had almost no contact with his father for much of his childhood. Adolin spent half the year with his father for much of his childhood from what I understand. If there is a "threshold" of brokenness to becoming Radiant, then this might explain the disparity. More specifically to your point, you have essentially identified why I don't find Adolin that interesting. I never have. He is fine as a side character because he lends much needed normality to the story. I don't mind his lack of arc so much as I don't like having arcs started (eg the Sadeas murder) which then seem to have been dropped. I don't currently see why Adolin had to kill Sadeas rather than have the murder either stay unsolved or another person kill him? Very little of OB would have changed. All I can see is that by committing murder, Adolin was able to avoid responsibility (ie becoming king) that he didn't want in the first place. That feels...... too neat? I still have hope that these unresolved issues might be addressed in the future. For me, given that the arcs have been started, something needs to happen regarding them. For example, I can't see Ialai dropping her own investigation into the murder of her husband (we know she has spies in Urithiru) so perhaps it will still come back to bite him. I do agree though that I would have liked more insight into Adolin's feelings on it. We get a brief look at him wondering if he is ashamed or proud, but thats it until we see him appear proud (from Shallans PoV) when he admits it to Dalinar without any idea how he got there. I must admit that I actually disliked Adolin in that moment - I guess I just don't think it is ok to feel fine about killing any person. Perhaps I would feel differently if we'd seen more of his thoughts . *shrugs* So I think we need to divide squires into those who can surgebind, and those who cannot (yet anyway). It is clear that Kaladin got squires in but not all started glowing immediately. We also see some who were with Bridge 4 take longer than others to get to glowing. Look at Hobber - he is really close to Kaladin in terms of his loyalty, and clearly Kaladin values him because of the way he tries to teach Hobber himself. I think Hobber wasn't ready in some way so whilst he was a squire in name, he wasn't glowing because he wasn't bonded fully. I think this likely happens with each of the orders. Just saying the words will be enough if you are already living the 1st ideal, but if you've said the words but don't yet understand them, you won't glow. So with Lyn, presumably something abut how she viewed both herself and the ideals allowed her to glow almost immediately. Presumably though, whatever it is about her that allows her to be a glowing squire, is not enough for her to have attracted her own spren. My guess is, that as she is based on a real person, she probably won't become a full radiant. If people agree, I think we need to come up with a way to describe squires that have been accepted into an Order that don't have stormlight yet, and those that do have stormlight. It would allow us to pick apart the defining differences. Any ideas?

I agree that the Shardbow is relevant, but we also see that Rock is very strong in WoR before we see him glow in anyway - he throws a tree at Kaladin's head when they practice sparring. I think that because he is part Listener, he may be stronger than the average human anyway. I'm not saying that he isn't using tension to use it so much as I think we have limited evidence of him using it. On the other hand, we already know he is bizarrely strong (which he possibly augments using stormlight when he pulls the shardbow back) and can use a bow with skill. I've done a bit of archery in my time, and half the trick is using the right muscles - if you get it wrong, even a normal bow can be storming difficult to draw, but when you get the knack of using your muscles and back it is much easier. Perhaps his additional base strength plus skill is enough? I know Dalinar thinks only a Shardbearer could do it, but that doesn't have to be true - Dalinar is capable of making such errors as we have seen. I feel that if he accepts that he must fight, this could be a "truth" he accepts as part of LW progression and therefore he gets a level-up then. He doesn't like it which might be why he seems forlorn as he looks at the bow? But if I'm right then he can't refuse to acknowledge it going forward. Regarding not seeing Cryptics, we know Syl sees one at the arena when Adolin, Renarin and Kaladin fight together. It appears that she saw Pattern, but what if she didn't? Rock might also have wanted to help and the cryptic she saw might have been his? It is exactly the sort of thing Sanderson might do to throw us off the scent. As an aside, he also calls Shallan "cousin" and that might be more foreshadowy than we realise! I am somewhat less keen on the stoneward idea simply because we have too little evidence about what they are actually like. Rock seems to fit with the idea of the "big man standing in the way" but it perhaps is a bit too obvious? Let alone we have no real idea what their oaths are. On the other hand, "dependable and resourceful" definitely describe Rock so I could get behind it if we can get a bit more evidence about what Stonewards are actually like. On that note, I'm pretty new here so I didn't see the idea that Teft could be a stoneward, but if I had, I wouldn't have gone there because he clearly comments that he isn't dependable/reliable in WoR and worries what will happen when he gets money. He also starts disappearing (we now know he is going to firemoss dens) in WoR and Kaladin wonders where he is.

Yes I agree. I think that unlike previous Bondsmiths, Dalinar is bonded to a very large splinter of Honor (the Stormfather indicates he changes after Honor's death as a result of being given additional investiture etc) so he is inherently more powerful than previous Bondmiths - or at least closer to ascension than they were. We know he ascended (even if it was only temporary) because Odium said so to Taravangian. I think the fact that he is a bondsmith plus his additonal investiture (nb he has been invested by Honor, Cultivation and Odium at this point) means he ascends and can unite the 3 realms for a short time. There are a lot of new things happening. The everstorm is new, Jezrien has been killed "properly" (not sent to Braize by the look of it) is new, there's a new herald killing blade flying about, there's a heavily invested blade around (Nightblood) and the champion thing has never happened before. As Jasnah says, we cannot rely entirely on old knowledge now.

Woo my quotes are working again. *phew* On your point above, I agree. I mean, I get that Adolin is a side character so we would expect his progression to be much slower than the mains but I am not sure I see significant growth from him here, or in WoR for that matter. His growth as he grappled with the idea of his father being insane was much more interesting to me as an individual. It isn't that I don't like him, so much as other characters with even less screentime seem to go through so much more growth. Look at Venli for example. I guess she might be a main character for SA4, but she didn't get that much time in OB and has had none before but we got loads from her story. I don't even need him to go dark or anything - but i do think that the Sadeas murder seems to have been dropped and we don't see him struggle with the idea that he is so much less important than he imagined. I don't mind that he takes it well, but I don't think he is so "good" that he can just accept it without really worrying about it. Unless he is as unreliable as a narrator as Shallan (he seems pretty reliable) I think we should assume that what you see is what you get largely. Perhaps it will all turn out to be a mask, but we've already seen that be done. I think Adolin works as a steady, sane, normal character, but that doesn't mean his arc all need to be tied to another person all the time. Ok, perhaps I missed a post here regarding this - and if so please can someone explain? But I am not sure the 1st ideal is "malleable" in the way people seem to see it. I think your own perception of how the ideal works is what matters. We know perception is top-dog in the cognitive realm, so there are definitely layers of how you can interpret the ideals. If anyone has read the "His Dark Materials" Trilogy by Phillip Pullman I am feeling a link to the Alethiometer: My point is that what you understand "Life before Death, Strength Before Weakness, Journey before Destination" to mean when you first swear the ideal will change as you change. That doesn't make it a worthless or malleable ideal - it makes the person living it malleable and understand different layers of it as they change. I personally see "Journey before destination" to mean several different things, they are related but not identical. Some of you may agree with some of them, and have other interpretations I've missed. The ends do not justify the means The way you travel the path of life is more important than where you are going. The end is the same for everyone, but it is how you get there that matters. Ok rather than going on, I don't see why, for example, if Kaladin is following this and identifying with the third one of my interpretations at this time, why it would make a difference if he thinks the 2nd is more important in 20 years time. Both are valid interpretations and as long as you are following it to the best of your ability then you are living by the ideal. However if you interpret the ideal to mean something else (honestly - you are not lying to yourself) then again, as long as you follow it, then you can be seen to be following the ideal. I think Malata presumably treats her ideals differently to Kaladin (makes sense, she is a different order after all) and thus can believe that the Diagram is a reasonable thing to follow whilst still following the first ideal honestly. For example, "Life before death" could mean; live life to the fullest while you can. "Strength before weakness" could mean; if you have strength, you act for those who do not. Journey before Destination could mean; exploration of new things matters more than where you end up. I think all of these could allow a diagramist to follow the 1st ideal whilst supporting the premise of the Diagram. There are likely other better interpretations than I could come up with. The issue might arise if or when Malata decides that she has better interpretation of the 1st Ideal that no longer coincides with the Diagram, or if she decides that the Diagram's followers are no longer acting in accord with her ideals. Whether or not Adolin is living them, is, of course up for debate. I wonder if there is an element of reflection that needs to happen before the ideal can be sworn sincerely. Adolin is sincere, but reflection is not his strongest suit.

Really? I thought she looked like an Edgedancer to me? She uses regrowth and seems to move fluidly iirc?

Hi guys, for some reason my quotes aren't working this morning so I'll just drop my thoughts here. I am just not sure that we need anything magical for Shallan regarding her persona's or eyesight etc. Sanderson is a big fan of Terry Pratchett. Pratchett's big thing was that you shouldn't use magic wherever possible. Indeed, the idea of the Discworld is that magic is so easy, that the most important thing that Witches and Wizards can do there is know how to do magic, but not do it because it is so dangerous. Both sets actually do very little magic in their stories as a result. Most of the time in fact they get by just doing stuff anyone can do - the most important magical secret essentially being that you just need to know one more thing than the person you are talking to for it to appear magical. As a result, "headology" as practiced by the Witches is basically just normal empathy/psychology with occasional pushes in the right direction with a touch of magic. Most of the time, simply being very good at understanding people is enough - particularly for the most senior witches. I think Sanderson might be trying to do this with Shallan via her ability to Connect with people. She can see the "best" person (eg her deserters) within them because once she has a connection she can glimpse at their "Ideal self" (thinking Plato and the Ideal world/ shadows on the wall of the cave stuff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonism) and help them reach it by illuminating it to them via her drawings. Real people can do this too without magic - ever known someone who makes you want to be the best that you can be? It doesn't take magic to get there. I just think that the magic element of this is that Shallan can Connect faster than in IRL. Her persona's fit a known problem in psychiatric medicine. Even if he has not done a realistic version of it (tho the more I think about it, the more I get dragged back to it being very accurate for the most part - he may have fudged it for narrative purposes at the end of OB but may get back on track in SA4) he doesn't need it to be magical - it can be a mundane thing with magical highlights. Those magical highlights are the illusions she creates to augment her fragmentation, but I don't think they are necessary for her to fragment in the first place. Regarding her creating "the new woman", I think this is a mask not a persona. The reason for this is that we don't see her change her normal thought patterns during it. Shallan still uses Jasnah's notes to guide her during the conference between the highprinces and is shy around Adolin, despite being more controlled than she might have been otherwise. On top of that we see her use her instinct ("it worked in art after all") to get into Sebarial's retinue. It may be the first time we see her alter herself subtly but I think this is a normal/healthy mechanism to use - eg if you go on a blind date with someone you show only your "best" self to them initially and that is what I think Shallan does here. I do think she continues to wear her "best" mask for Adolin throughout though she does drop it a couple of times. The first is probably the "poop" incident, which gets him interested on more than an abstract basis, and the second is when she "hisses" at him about not wanting to be protected after she gets out of the chasms. Otherwise, she is "best" Shallan most of the time, and the couple of times we see her be more natural, Adolin seems to miss it. I specifically reference 1) the situation when they are in the carriage and he seems not to notice her hiding pain when she asks to go to the menagerie and 2) When she gets interested in the rocks (the old buildings of Stormseat) and he just walks off, uninterested in what she is doing. There may be other times off screen but I'm not sure. I am still less familiar with OB than WoR so I may have missed situations in OB that suggest he is waking up. The problem is that she obviously fractures in Part 2 and their interactions in Part 1 don't seem that different than WoR imo. Not that I'd expect them to be of course. But once she dissociates, it is clear that we can't trust her as a narrator at all - and she was pretty unreliable in the first place. Regarding her regression. I agree with @SLNC that Shallan and Kaladin seem to have essentially done the same thing to their spren. Neither Pattern nor Syl were truly dead. I don't think they were "dead-eyes" like Maya for example. Once the bond was rekindled from the human end, they seem to have woken up pretty quickly. Pattern, having been "almost dead" for so much longer, likely took longer to recover. After all, Syl had only been "almost dead" a couple of weeks at most whereas Pattern had been dead 6 years. On top of that Kaladin was overjoyed to get Syl back, Shallan was less pleased about Pattern, both on a conscious and an unconscious level. He expected Syl to be back to normal, whereas Shallan had no conscious feelings about Pattern regarding his state of mind.

So this is possible too - but as the epigraphs are written in-world and therefore blinkered by the limitations of the person writing them, they cannot be assumed to be 100% accurate. It is just as possible that Dai-Gonarthis attempted to access something there and Aimia was destroyed to prevent that happening. Alternatively, Dai Gonarthis was trapped in the caverns under Aimia and during an escape attempt (presumably failed as we haven't seen DaiGonarthis yet afaik) the island was destroyed in someway. There are loads of ways in which Dai-Gonarthis could be implicated but not acting to destroy the island directly. On top of that, it isn't 100% the epigraph has a lot of "ifs" in in. If Daigonarthis is the 9th unmade (does seem reasonable) it might be related to the destruction of Aimia. Given how the word voidbringer has been co-opted, this could be much more subtle than it immediately appears.

Given that "and the cost would be the ends of worlds" is said, it seems likely that there is at least something there. I suspect that the scouring is more recent than whatever happened when Odium was bound to the Rosharan system by Honor. Mainly because it is implied that the scouring happened only a few generations ago (Axies talks about it in his PoV chapter in Iri) whereas it is implied that Odium was bound when (or possibly before) the Desolations started, because Odium is likely tied to the Oathpact in some way. I think he is gradually slipping free and perhaps killed Honor and thus shattered the Shattered Plains at a later date. It is unclear who did the Scouring of Aimia. I think it is meant to be related to a natural disaster but it is possible that it was done deliberately by eg the Aimians themselves, Cultivation, or perhaps another group like the Skybreakers who want to prevent Odium getting free. It would prevent people getting there - we know at least some of the defences are deliberate, on top of guardians of the island. The problem with the timeline is that Dysian Aimians (and it is implies Siah Aimians too) are functionally immortal. Their perception of time may therefore be distorted in comparison with short lived humans. It is also clear that they are native to Roshar, but they don't seem to side with the Listeners/Odium, but it is unclear if they are truly on the side of humans either. Prior to the scouring, people got soulcasters from there and yet even a skilled artifabrian like Navani has no idea how they work suggesting that the Aimians did something truly unique. They are "spying" or gathering information all over Roshar via the Dysian Aimian cremlings, and perhaps Axies is doing more than simply chasing spren. There are a great many mysteries surrounding them and I don't know that we have enough information to draw any proper conclusions yet.

Thanks all for commenting so far. I appreciate the feedback I hadn't thought of this but I think it's a great point. I think Windrunners probably were one of the biggest orders if the squires are included in their numbers, but it would be easy to have way too many and for them to massively dominate the KR as a whole. That seems unlikely because we know there was conflict between the WR and SB which would be odd if there were loads more WR imo. This works too. I am not sure I feel it more than him being a LW given the lies, but he does certainly have some Edgedancer traits. I could live with this idea too - or even a Truthwatcher because of some of the things he adds. I got the idea for lightweaver because they are supposed to have been poets/authors/artists etc and I thought that as he told stories that might fit. On the other hand his fingers are described as delicate (by Kaladin in tWoK) so that could link with the edgedancers? Fair enough I do want to point out that they have already broken with them all being WR though - Renarin is a Truthwatcher. A mixed team would be more useful than them all being WR in theory as it would make them more versatile. That doesn't mean Rock has to be a LW of course.

Yes. This is what I said. He may have the necessary requirements but does not have sufficient requirements. If you read all my posts you will see that I am not saying Adolin won't be an Edgedancer. I am disputing the idea that he is one yet. At best him reawakening Maya may have given him some access but as we have a timeskip and it seems likely that we would get to see Adolin revive her if it is to happen, he probably hasn't awakened her enough to bond with her properly. People have said he is already suitable. I say that all we can prove is that he may have partly reawakened a Dead-eye. Even that is unclear whether it will remain - perhaps it was because of the perpendicularity- like Taln becoming lucid for a moment that she was able to awaken slightly. We know as of OB he has not bonded a spren. That means he does not fill the requirements. We don't know all the requirements. Lopen has a bond therefore he must have all the requirements that are sufficient to gain a bond. Some of these will be necessary, others may be optional Adolin does not have a bond therefore he may have the necessary requirements but he cannot have sufficient requirements. We cannot know if Adolin has the necessary requirements or not without more info. He may be broken (I personally don't think so) and he may even have a willing spren (though again I don't think so) but if there are other requirements that you need to get the bond then he does not have enough of them to bond. I'll use a real world analogy - perhaps I'm not being clear with this. Its an example loosely based on RL data but I'll fudge it to make it clear. Mesothelioma is a type of cancer linked to asbestos exposure. All sufferers of mesothelioma were exposed to asbestos during their lives Not all people exposed to asbestos get mesothelioma 60% of mesothelioma sufferers were smokers 20% were exposed to oil based products like paint/paint thinners fumes 10% worked in hot environments (eg foundries, factories working with hot machinery etc) 10% could identify no other specific situation that might affect their lungs. So what does this tell us? It tells us firstly that if you have mesothelioma you must have been exposed to asbestos. It is necessary. It tells us that not all people exposed to asbestos get mesothelioma, therefore you need something else to happen. Therefore being exposed, whilst necessary is not enough (sufficient) to get mesothelioma. We know that 90% of the mesothelioma sufferers had one other stimulus that may have contributed. 10% don't recognize anything that might be a factor in their disease. This means it is likely that if you have the necessary cause (asbestos exposure) and at least one factor, you have sufficient requirements to get mesothelioma. The other 10% likely relate to factors we don't know about or genetic factors. We know this because Not everyone who gets exposed gets the disease - because they don;t have the sufficient requirements. We can theorise all day about why Adolin doesn't meet requirements but we don't actually have that much data to support it. Canon evidence is thin when it comes to Adolin and bonding because we don't know how all the other orders bonded and we don't know enough of how the spren choose.

I'm not disputing that. But then we have to wonder what will change to make a spren want to bond him. Spren don't change much without the bond so the change has to come from Adolin if he is going to attract one. In theory a new one could be born but it is said that having "children" is rare amongst spren and we don't know how long childhood lasts. This is my point regarding neccessity and sufficiency. So far we know being broken is necessary but not sufficient. We know a spren willing to bond is necessary but not sufficient. We don't know that being broken PLUS having a willing spren is sufficient, we only know those things are necessary. On top of that, we don't know how much agency each spren actually has with regards to the bond. It seems to be complete choice, but the human's actions do something to make it happen and we don't know how much choice they have in that last moment.

Shallan is 4th Dahn, he is 2nd or 3rd so she'd not that much lower. Most of the women he courts are likely at the same level as she is. The only difference is her nationality to make her less "appealing" as a match - but he'd insulted all the local girls. Amaram mentions her once to Adolin in the first chapter of Part 2 iirc. Also, she's been dead at least 6 years. Not to be funny, but people don't bring up the death of a loved one to someone after that length of time very often. I do agree that Dalinar having forgotten her is suggestive, but I don't think it matters that much that other people don't talk about her much. I am not so sure it is ok to equate murder with stealing food. Lift specifically says she isn't going to hurt anyone when she enters the Palace in Azir. Adolin on the other hand isn't sure whether he should feel "ashamed or proud" about killing Sadeas. Lift is also a child so her refusing responsibility is fair. On top of that she accepts some because she goes back to help Gawx because she is the only one who can. She doesn't want to be eaten by the Azish because she doesn't want to lose who she is. Adolin doesn't want to be king because he doesn't want the responsibility. So this might work except that we have a year time-skip between OB and SA4 - that means no significant plot points are going to happen in that time - or they'd be worth covering. I think it might happen in future, but I think something else needs to happen before Adolin can revive her. If he has all the building blocks now then we should open SA4 to find him already Radiant. That would be a huge arc to skip.

Hi all, so I was thinking about Rock, aka "Lunamor" and his use of Stormlight. I apologise if anyone has posted a similar thread - I couldnt see one like it though. So from OB we get quite a lot of info about Rock which I'll list here. He calls himself Lunamor in his PoV He is married with children and we meet those people He has lied to Bridge 4 a number of times He can draw Stormlight like any squire of Kaladin's He doesn't seem to bond a spren despite many of Kaladin's top level officers managing it by the end of OB. So I was thinking that Rock could be a proto-Lightweaver rather than a WR. So my evidence is pretty complicated. I'll try to put it in as much a chronological order as possible. We see that Rock can "transform" people right from the start. He helps them by making stew for the bridgecrew as one of the first things Kaladin does to get them together. He is creative - he can sing and he is experimental/creative with cooking. We don't see him comment on unusual spren (like Elhokar) because he can always see them (he was born able to). He tells stories (like about the Horneaters came to live on the Peaks) and uses them to tell truths in a roundabout way. He met Wit at the Peaks - coincidence? He is clearly lying about being 3rd son in some way though the exact story isn't coming out. It seems that he is lying to himself about this too. "I am a chef" is repeated a lot. He "transforms" 2 different bridge 4 members in his PoV champter - Skar (who benefits from helping Rock draw in stormlight) and Renarin (who he helps by making him realise that he isn't "the wierdest") He also has a good idea about everyone's stories and how to help them as individuals. He also sees the "tenderness" in Kaladin that isn't something that many comment on - and he's right. He thinks that he is glad that Bridge 4 can't speak Unkalaki because they would find out all the lies he told them. He is horrified after killing Amaram (presumably because he promised he wouldn't fight) and this may suggest a moment of him "breaking" and opening himself up to a spren. On top of that, I feel that Lunamor has a somewhat "light" feeling to it. It sounds a bit like Luna (the moon) , or Lumina (latin for lights iirc). He also is a person who can "lighten" Kaladin's mood at times. He is always lit up because he is near the fire etc. He also doesn't like the wind/air the way Kaladin does - he says it is too thick - light is much less dense than air If you read through his PoV chapter with this in mind there are a number of other things that you might spot that might also point in this direction and I'd love some input on this. What do y'all think?

I like it - it would explain why Lopen and Teft are able to gain powers now but didn't get them earlier - they weren't ready in some way but by becoming squires it helped them get there. I just had a thought regarding this, what if it isn't being "broken" that matters so much as "being broken but looking to fix yourself". Teft only really seems to get somewhere once he wants to mend? Same with Lopen to an extent - maybe it is the search for redemption that matters? I am not sure I have any specific evidence except that we have less obviously "broken" people be KR and the order they attract could relate to the way they try to fix themselves? For example, Kaladin wants to defend others to make up for the fact he failed Tien, Jasnah wants to prevent the desolation using her intellect after she had a period of lunacy. Shallan uses lies to "fix" herself (via dissociation) and uses them to tell possible truths to people round her. Dalinar wants to unite people because he divided them in his youth. Teft failed his family and Bridge 4 then accepts that he needs to work to make up for that. I think it may work. Perhaps this is why Adolin hasn't "snapped"? He might remember the forgotten etc but he seems pretty ok with who he is. Without looking to change himself, he can't open himself up to a bond? He would have to "break" then look for a way to mend himself - presumably by using the principles of loving/giving for Edgedancers if we go down that route?

This is a picture of Nergaoul. It is drawn by Shallan when she had a time-lapse dissociation period. It looks like the description given of Nergaoul in Part 5. I don't think it has anything to do with real horses or rhyshadium except that horses came with the humans and so did Odium. I agree that Rhyshadium are altered horses. It seems reasonable to conclude that due to direct Shardic intervention normal horses were altered to become invested so they would be suitable to carry plated radiants (ng normal horses too fragile). The interference was done in such a way as to allow further Ryshadium to be bred. I don't think Rhyshadium and normal horses can breed now (no doubt someone would have tried it - Rhyshadium are rare and very useful) which suggests they are different species far enough apart to at least not produce fertile offspring. Maybe you can get mixed breeds, but they would likely be infertile (like mules are infertile offspring of donkeys and horses), or,imo, even more likely, they just don't breed/produce offspring. The question remains, is there a gemheart? Given the extra intelligence of Rhyshadium, I think a spren bond seems reasonable (whether in a gem heart of another form I don't know). I say this because the chasmfiend is clever when it lies in wait for Shallan and Kaladin in the chasm and we know that has some bonded spren (luckspren). Most other local species don't seem that clever in the wild. Maybe axehounds are, Balat's seems quite bright - though that could as much be due to selective breeding by humans (like we bred dogs to be clever) as from a spren. I didn't get the impression that anyone thinks whitespine are clever so much as cunning? Oops forgot to comment on this: Ooh i forgot about this. That suggests a spren bond imo - only intelligent creatures seem able to attract spren like that. Are the Rhyshadium talking to each other like the Parsendi did through the rhythms?

Wow so many good points! So I thought those weren't "proper" bonds because they disappeared after Nergaoul was captured and the men stopped fighting and just sat there howling. I thinnk it was a forced "bond" rather than a true Nahel bond. Perhaps that is what makes someone a voidbringer - that they are forcibly corrupted by Odium? Indeed - and "visible" might mean different things to a spren. We don't get a PoV from Syl or Pattern so it is possible they view Shadesmar very differently from the humans. They likely also view it differently to each other. Snapping from a beating iirc is temporary? or makes you into a misting rather than a full mistborn. Can't quite remember - its not enough to get permanant power from I remembeber. I do agree that squires might make things easier - for one thing they've already started living the ideals. Perhaps that is the point - you have to live the ideals or be broken to start the bonding process. If you aren't doing either, then no bond? Oh that could work - I can't remember the details of rewriting the spiritweb tho - could you summarise or link me to an explanantion? Possibly - or of course it could be a temporary thing ? Being in shadesamr + pain? Her awareness in the pRealm may be to do with Dalinar's perpendicularity? That may allow for permanency but it doesn't guarantee it. I doubt Adolin will bond between OB and SA4 as there is a year timeskip and we are sure to see at least some of it. I agree - it mirrors how Renarin grimaces when he first takes his blade. I don't think it is that he is hearing the screams then but he feels the "wrongness". Wouldn't it be the other way round? He forced himself to bond someone with a blade so feel more vociferous than a normal spren would who could choose someone with a blade? The lack of freedom would make him really struggle with the idea of being bonded to someone also bonded to a dead-eye. So as said elsewhere the plate that may be Adolin's glows red and is worn by someone using abrasion. Edgedancers are associated with diamond, dustbringers are associated with ruby. On the other hand, the fact that the only cultivationspren we know of looked at Iriali people exclusvely may support this idea because Adolin's mother was from that area of Roshar too. I like this idea. Perception is everything in the cognitive realm. It also fits with how Kaladin really sees himself as he bonds more losely to Syl. As I said further upthread - if we believe that you have to be broken to get a Nahel bond, Lopen must be broken because he has one. It doesn't matter how we view him. If nahel bond = broken then anyone with a Nahel bond must be sufficiently broken to have one. That said, being broken is likely not enough to get the bond so presumably the "nahel bond also = living the 1st ideal". Unless there is another reason for Adolin to not have a bond (discussed above) he currently does not meet minimum requirements because otherwise he'd already have one. I think we need more idea for the "minimum requirements". It may vary between orders. Whilst I do believe that being broken is one of them, perhaps we should consider it being necessary but not sufficient to form a Nahel bond. (see explanation of necessary/sufficient philosophy here: http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hausman/341/Skill/nec-suf.htm)

Good Morning Good Morning! Epic length post time again I'm afraid. But then if you all didn't make such interesting points I wouldn't have to comment so you are all partly responsible Yes I agree - I think progression through levels is a spike/steep slope at the "Ideal" stage then a gentler rise towards the next one - that slow progression happens both through practice of the surgebinding skills but also through gaining self-awareness and awareness of what needs to be done. I think this is true for all the KR orders, but self awareness is particularly important for LW. My point was that she felt it was a faithful representation of something she had seen - the fact it is an interpretation is not that important - it is one of the first times we see her do something that is both "true" and a "lie" that doesn't relate to herself (nb Veil is a version of Shallan in WoR). She hadn't taken a memory of Jasnah and even if she had, it was a good month or two since Jasnah's "death". So even if she'd embellished, it was still showing her memory improving, which was my point. Regarding the 2nd bit I quoted - this is my point. It isn't an exception to the LW as a whole - it's an exception for Shallan because of how she perceives her power. I think we have to assume that because of her background, everything she does might be very different to normal LW progression - if, as you suggest she was at 4 when she killed her mother (which whilst I don't necessarily think has to be right, I do agree it is a perfectly good theory) and has regressed because pain etc, then everything she does is a bit broken until she re-attains that level. If, instead, she was level 2 as I suggested, but broke her bond by Pattern forcing it to become a shardblade, then again, everything would be a bit broken until she gets to a level where she should have a shardblade (imo level 4). The reason she then breaks more in my theory is that she was coerced into hitting her 4th ideal by Pattern, probably a bit early, and that she hasn't accepted it. She still fights the idea of the blade and so ends up fragmenting her personality. She says Pattern sounds different when she goes to Shadesmar and interacts with Stick there (WoR). I think the presence of the other Cryptics was vital, but I don't think they had to have a temporary bond, just that they forced her to confront some of her memories. The temporary bond may have been a thing but I am not sure we have evidence that such a thing can form? I think we are talking at cross purposes. Sorry! To me, her drawing is her pulling him into the pRealm. Summoning him refers to the blade form. She "summons" him as a blade to kill Tyn. She draws him on the ship and then starts lightweaving. That said, we see her lightweave with Hoid in her flashback (ch 45) when they meet at the Middlefest. I am reasonably sure that's her because she draws in stormlight and she shapes the images a bit rather than it being Hoid. It may have been both.But if it is Shallan, she can lightweave without having summoned Pattern either way. Yes, pretty much. If she weren't able to do sound because she hadn't attained the level then, as I said, other artistic forms that rely on sound would be pretty useless until they got to a higher level. Its all about Shallan's perception. I think her level up made her able to produce more illusions and give them substance (via resonance with transformation) which is definitely new and also very powerful. I very much agree we could do with seeing another LW - it is difficult to tell the universal rules for LW from Shallan as so much of her personal situation may be unique to her. We also don't know how strict the attainment of new powers is regarding LW - tho I think it is reasonable that all get illumination before transformation but perhaps they all use it very differently? Ok, so what are you getting at? I thought you were saying that her killing her father isn't a truth that levels her because she couldn't ignore it? I am saying it is a truth because she said she murdered her father, not just that she killed him and that accepting the idea of being a murderer was important to her progression. @Dreamstorm - spoilered for reasons @insert_anagram_here I think this is certainly plausible - Kaladin certainly is being set up to go. I agree - he feels more.... real? He gets angry about things, but calms down, he grows more as a result of his argument with Dalinar about the visions than any other part of his arc so far. Well his eyes do still wander in WoR but that seems to have stopped *sigh*. It is vaguely annoying because unless Shallan or Renarin have accidentally transformed him into the "perfect" Adolin, it seems a bit out of character. People don't change that fast, if at all. Not true - he looks at the darkeyed Master servant at the winehouse (chapter 49) and Shallan thinks in chapter 63 "His eyes did wander and she had to admit that wasn't something that pleased her". which implies that it has happened more than once. She just doesn't get super possessive over it, that's all. Eugh, I missed that. That is more worrying than anything Maybe it's just me, but isn't shame the normal reaction? I mean, even people who kill their partners after years of abuse feel a mix of shame and relief - they don't describe feeling "proud" usually. Not exactly. You can get to compassion and logic via different means. For example, Veil is extroverted and Shallan introverted. Veil gets to her compassion by wanting to immerse herself in people (people watching, understanding and interacting with them) and Shallan can get there by being introverted and wanting the best for people in a less hands on, more philosophical way. She is an EP imo so she doesn't want people to hurt because she knows what that feels like. Most people IRL are compassionate, just to different degrees - but the route they take to get to it is different. If you have multiple traits that lead you towards compassion, then you will likely be considered very compassionate. On top of that, compassion is something that is affected by experience and learned behaviour. For example, someone who is racist may be compassionate to people they consider "their kind" but incapable of that same compassion to people of a different "race". Race is a social construct - whilst there are some physical differences between the races, we are one species. If you wiped out the entire population of humans except for Papua New Guinea, you'd still have 98% of the genomic variation that is present in humans as a whole. This means that racism is a learned behavior. We aren't born like it.

You mean he needs to stop thinking about cheese? I spend most my time thinking about it so only a couple of minutes would be very difficult. I was thinking @EvilNuff should probably be on latrine duty for a week. More and more of us are here and it's starting to smell.....

Actually that's a good point. Given how strict the WR are regarding the oaths (well they at least appear to be) the opposite on the spectrum (from the Double-eye radiant picture thing) is the LW and they would probably be the loosest in many ways. True. True. I think he probably does know more than we might expect, but at the same time maybe he sees this as a necessary step. If you are willing to be a box then I am all for it! I mean, not that I want us all to die as we sink slowly into the ever churning waters of the Sandermuda triangle, but at least we are in good company right? That isn't entirely true - she draws Jasnah as she remembers her from their last night on the ship together. That's months later and it is still clear. It wasn't even drawing a proper memory. We also see her lightweave by instinct for the first time (as she lightweaves herself as a weeping girl). That suggests more than just practice to me. I don't know that it isn't possible. I think Syl was probably more dead than Pattern and just because Shallan doesn't consciously remember something doesn't mean she doesn't subconsciously (she remembered her mother's death, she'd just suppressed it). Its not like the memories just disappear. Shallan is a very unreliable narrator. She makes colour on the deck of the wind's pleasure. She has drawn pattern then but not summoned him otherwise. Its a major step forward. Yes, but she needed to get back to it. Shallan vaguely remembers lights and patterns she played with as a child. That seems much more basic than anything she does in WoR - making herself prettier/dress better etc to convince the deserters to support her is a major step up from that - getting to Veil from there, I agree is more about practice. Sounds are not inherently more complex than images. Illumination is a surge of light and sound. Pattern specifically tells her this. She has limited herself to what she can draw, but there were other artistic types before the Recreance (poets/authors and iirc musicians). They would have manipulated the skill differently than Shallan would - eg I would imagine a musician or an author to manage sound better than Shallan does because those are easy to imagine when you write them down in either word or notation format. As I said, it isnt the "killing" that matters it is accepting responsibility of "murder". Its not the same thing at all. Her murder of Tyn was self defence. Her murder of her father wasn't - it was premeditated (albeit for only a short time before she committed it). You could argue that Tyn's death was manslaughter. You can't do that with Lin. True. Also, if she was partly in the cRealm then it is possible she could hear him because he was only mostly dead. This is a good point. The Oaths/Ideals are a construct imposed after nahel bond was "invented" by the spren. Perhaps each surgebinder can technically access all their powers from the beginning if the situation is right. I still think this supports her straining the bond to make Pattern a blade to defend herself when her mother attacked her. @DreamstormWoo, We caught another one! Also, don't be silly, we wouldn't make you be pulled along in a dinghy - for one thing it has a hole in it. No-one minds a skeptic here as long as you are willing to go down with the ship. In order to also hide Shipping stuff I shall also spoiler it. Good point, it is as much about "living" those ideals as saying them, though I do think the words matter to an extent - perhaps solidifying the bond?

@Necessary Eagle - I demand satisfaction for the lies and slander you are spreading Sir! We mourn our most magnificent master, murdered malevolently then maligned. It becomes clear to me that we, dear friends, are sharing a profound and bitter grief. It is indeed true that Sadeas is..... (*suppressed sob*)... was not only the orchestrator of so many schemes aimed at the betterment of the lives of his people, but that without him, it seems likely that the world is slowly falling apart. After all, what has happened since his death? Kholinar lost. Iri and Rira have joined the enemy. Thaylen City almost razed to the ground. Thousands of people killed or enslaved by the Parshendi. Need I go on? I am glad to see that infighting has already arisen amongst us, for whether Sadeas still lives or not, he would relish the idea that his passing would inspire a new wave of division within the ranks. It seems a fitting send off. *sobs harder and walks to a corner and curls up in a ball*

I don't quite follow. To me, the "I'm terrified" re-bonds her to Pattern then she progresses with "I killed my father". We see Shallan improve as a lightweaver vastly from this point in WoR. I agree that her speaking the truth of being "terrified" didn't progress her because it wasn't said to Pattern but was actually more about him. We know she hits level 4 at end of WoR (as per WoB as you said. ) If she'd been level 3 that whole time, why do we get so much progression through WoR? We see so much more complexity -as she goes from making simple colour on the deck of the Wind's Pleasure at the beginning to be able to create a walking image of Veil she can tie to Pattern when she goes to find Taln for example. It makes more sense surely that she progresses 1 level at the end of tWoK simply because she seems to gain in skill and also seems able to draw in more stormlight etc as well. She was denying to herself that she killed her father. She consistently tells herself not to think about it. She even stifles the ideas of him being dead. It wasn't as deep a lie, but then she also had less time to repress it and as she was much older, her mind was less able to anyway. So I think this was her reviving Pattern, rather than speaking a truth. She, in a sense, had gone backwards in self-awareness and this was her regaining her levels. I don't consider this a "truth" in the same way as a result because it was more a case of reviving the bond - like Kaladin did with Syl. She gets a pseudo-powerup because she suddenly gets access to two levels of stormlight that she'd been blocking. Note that Syl was already reviving before he said his words (we hear her voice) then he swears the ideal and she comes back fully plus he levels up. He also gets a supercharged power up because he gets 2 levels back plus the third new one. I think it is reasonable that it is similar to what Pattern and Shallan did for him to revive. She doesn't level per se until she says she is a murderer. I also want to point out that accepting the idea of murderer is slightly different from saying "I killed my father". The definition of murder is that it is unlawful killing that occurred with the express intent of killing the victim (nb manslaughter is usually unlawful killing but death was not intended). Shallan (correctly imo) identifies herself as a murderer because she had a plan to poison her father to kill him and when that failed she strangled him to death. I am not saying she didn't have cause , but she did mean to kill him. That is actually quite powerful as an idea. I can't see how this can't be a truth given that she never thinks about it prior to her statement at the end of tWoK.