Bigmikey357

This is a God created framework. Shards cannot deny power if conditions are met but they can certainly shape a magic system. Harmony replaced two metals in the Metallic Arts after all, I don't see it being outside the realm of possibility that a fully powered Honor and Cultivation couldn't fix it so that parts of their power adheres to a framework. Personally I don't think their Oaths would be that different, just slightly more Individualized than a Radiant from another Order other than Lightweavers of course. And I believe that their primary purpose, to unite instead of Divide, will be the same regardless of the Godspren they bond with. But those spren are nearly (or in SF case, actual) Shard avatars. Their entire power cannot be pushed into a framework with less capable spren; some of that extra power will leak out, it must go somewhere. The Bondsmiths should be able to channel the extra power into something that reflects their unique purpose in the ecology of Roshar while still running the KR.

To start off, I once subscribed to a theory that a Bondsmith had more options than our traditional 3 (Stormfather Nightwatcher Sibling) based almost entirely by a quote in the in world text Words of Radiance. But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious From the use of the word seditious I figured that 3 Bondsmiths in a generation was an Order imposed upper limit, that there could be generations of KR that had 3 Bondsmiths where none of them were the 3 we know of. After all there must be other megaspren on Roshar considering how sapient beings, humans in particular, tend to personify things. However I'm rethinking this. I'm currently rereading OB and the Spren seem to disagree with me. SF says there are only 3 when speaking to Dalinar, Captain Notum says that there's only three when he converses with Stormblessed. Now Spren aren't omniscient and they can always be mistaken, yet I'm sure they know enough of the arrangement to know whether a thing can be done, at least according to their bond. Complicating my assertions is Odium and what he proved at Thaylen City. With the right conditions humans could always bind with Spren. This kinda creates a disconnect, at least for me. If any spren can be bonded, why are their only 3 Bondsmith spren? Extrapolate this even further, I'm sure there are more sapient spren than the varieties that make up the Knights. We've seen one type already in the mistspren. So what happens if a human encounters one, meets the conditions for a bond and actually makes it happen? Is Odium lying or is there something to this? My eventual conclusion is that there was a dividing line in Roshar history, and that line was the establishment of the Knights Radiant. Previously the conditions were wild wild west chaotic. The young Nohadon vision seems to indicate that anyone who attracted a Spren was a ticking time bomb/ potential despot. And all spren were on the table, from lesser spren like flame and Windspren to more powerful sapient spren like those who currently form Nahel bonds though not limited to them, even to our favorite Megaspren. Cusiech was likely one who could be bonded, maybe the Spren of Stone worshipped by the Shin, really if you could manage to make a connection you got power. Bond a flamespren, get an effect similar to bronze Feruchemy. Bond a higher order type Flamespren and become Johnny Storm. The only limitation was whether you could manage that connection. Honor would be right to worry that Roshar was heading down the path to Ashyn 2.0 so in conjunction with Ishar, binder of Gods, the Knights Radiant were established. Spren were put into production that granted Surgebinding, along with 3 preexisting Megaspren that would grant their bandmates incredible powers to ride herd on these new surgebinders. Then he shut down everyone else's pathway. You could still bind spren that weren't in the KR mix but you'd need a device to make it work. Plus those surges you command would be far weaker than what you got with a Nahel bond, with less protections. And Honor would always be there in case things got outta hand again, course correcting for as long as the war with Odium lasted. But the Heralds failed and Honor eventually died. And since he was suffering from something like dementia at the end he never got a chance to course correct his creation at the end. Certain overlooked pathways remained open or were forced open by the various Unmade, so now if they but discover it some bonds outside the KR structure have again become possible. I think that I've given a reasonable approximation of what happened given the clues we've received so far. Any thoughts?

The Eshonai I was referring to was her earlier incarnation, unreliable, lover of adventures, prone to wonder off at a whim, lover of map making. Early Eshonai fits all that we've been told a Willshaper resembles in temperament. The way in which she is similar to Venli lies in exploration, although it's expressed differently. Regardless, the soul of a diplomat to me is the same as the drive that makes a Worldsinger, someone who finds joy in differences. They need not be diplomatic always but the love of difference drives them to the next journey. I have some trouble placing Willshapers into the KR job structure. If not diplomats then what would they be? I don't believe they're engineers or scholars for other Orders fit that role better IMO (Dustbringer and Elsecaller respectively). Another possibility would be scouts but Windrunners have that on lock per WOB. They aren't overly political nor overly militaristic. They share some common ground with merchants if the Rsyn chapters are anything to go by but they aren't totally that either. Diplomat for me checks the most boxes. And note, for all Eshonai's faults her people did make her an ambassador for them anyway, one with a strong voice despite her youth relative to the Five. Gotta count for something.

We corresponded in your Oath Pattern post. Different interpretation but not necessarily contradictory.

@Karger No argument on this one other than the underlying Oath structure which is still complimentary to my own theory as u know.

Kinda creepy even before the theory. Even creepier now.

@Karger Upon reading your theory and the Word of Issac it's difficult for me to refute. Although Spensa does have an affinity for tinkering that's not quite a core personality trait for her. The abrasive personality seems much more in line with her Order. So maybe for me the characterization of a Dustbringer is one of purposeful engineering. They don't want knowledge to horde as many scholars do. They are only interested in practical knowledge, useful information to accomplishing goals or missions. They're also more likely to have a gruff exterior and gooey center. Look at their gem archive entry. And it's telling that they sit right next to Edgedancers on the double Eye. They are guarded with their feelings because they feel so deeply. And if they were as hard hearted as they appear to outsiders they wouldn't protest their name nearly as much.

@Karger Personally speaking I thought the Dustbringers were the tinkering Order although from the post I understand your reasoning behind your supposition. Their spren have been described as ones that like to take things apart to see how they work. Although Malata has so far shown no signs of a tinkering nature we don't know much about her at this point in time. The main reason why I disagree with the thrust of this post is that none of the Oaths proposed fit Eshonai. Venli bonded Timbre but it was her sister that drew her from the Cognitive Realm in the first place. Venli was a stopgap not a perfect fit like say Shallan for Lightweaver or Kaladin for Windrunner. As for the job they'd perform in the Knights original incarnation, I'd have called them more diplomat than inventor. I could be wrong though.

We all know that Odium is the bad guy, terrifying in visage and in power. The Shard killer, spren shudder in fear at the mention of his name. But it wasn't until Oathbringer that we found out how he operates. He and his minions always encourage people to give up their pain, to let go, to give in to the void as if dumping water into a well. Well it has become apparent to me that the Heralds knew their ancient enemy, for in the creation of the Knights Radiant orders they gave their followers the perfect words to fight against the void. Every Knight or perspective Knight speaks the words of the first Ideal. Even though the words can and are interpreted differently for every individual their primary purpose is fighting against the very tactic Odium uses. Give in and embrace the end? Life before Death. Give me your pain? Strength before Weakness. It's not your fault? You were doing only what comes naturally to you? Journey before Destination. The very words codified in the First Ideal are a block to Odium's entire recruiting strategy. This is something I only realized in retrospect, perhaps because we got the ideals before we even knew what those Ideals guarded against. Thoughts?

The 5th Ideal would probably be dangerous in any Order, not just Skybreakers. That's probably why they save it for last, after the Radiant has gone through the trials initiated through he swearing of the other 4.

The jobs that a Bondsmith may engage in, to me, are irrelevant. They could all serve the same functions and they all get the same general powers afaik, but my argument stems from the fact that SF, NW, the Sib and any other god level spren that we aren't yet aware of are all different whereas all Honorspren are the same. All Cultivationspren are the same. All Cryptics and lightspren and highspren are the same type of spren. It would make sense if they got different jobs, different responsibilities and so on. It was said of the ancient Radiants that one was always in accompaniment of Urithiru and its throne for instance. But it doesn't have to be that way.

I don't know if Lightweaver has a pattern per se, more a direction toward complete self awareness, one so great that they're incapable of lying to themselves. Coincidentally I believe all Orders do this in their pursuit of their final ideals yet the majority of people must function within a structure in order to keep from being lost. Artists generally speaking don't do well with structure and hierarchy, therefore forcing those types into that type of organization means that not many would ever join up, much less progress.

While I don't see anything to disagree with the proposed final Oaths, I think that they likely apply to Dalinar only, or at most the Bondsmiths that bond SF. I personally don't believe that we can codify Bondsmith Oaths at all. The reason is simple. The spren are different. If I were to become a Windrunner I would bond an honorspren. Lightweaver bonds Cryptic. Ect, ect. The spren have their own personality but they're still the same type, attracted to the same type things. But a Bondsmith is bonding a mega spren whose only similarity to its siblings is power level. I imagine that the personality traits SF is attracted to will be significantly different than what would attract NW. I also think that the Oaths SF accepts would not work to pry NW from that valley.

That Loser Ruin. How Vin refers to Ati when when she tells the story of how she beat his butt. Usually requested when she goes bar hopping.

Kelsier

@Karger So we conflict on 3 and 5, 3 because of a different interpretation and 5 due to lack of information. The 4th is the same. A test, a crusade, a crucible, you take what you've learned about yourself through the first 3 Oaths out into the world and find a way to accommodate your world view. There will inevitably be those who can't and don't progress. Btw, I got the 5th Oath from the Skybreakers and extrapolated it out from there. It ties into what I believe happens when someone reaches Oath 5, a complete man spren merger. We could both be right or neither, or only be right about certain Orders and not other's. Either way it's fun to speculate. And I will read the individual ones when I get the chance.

@Karger The OP's Oath pattern theory jives well with my own interpretation, for I have thought about this as well. Haven't had time to look over the individual Order predictions yet though it looks really interesting. Anyway, maybe my theory will strengthen or help define yours better. 1st Ideal: Knight Radiant mission statement 2nd Ideal: Order mission statement 3rd Ideal: Refining/ Individualized mission statement 4th Ideal: Testing Ideal 5th Ideal: Embodiment of Order Whaddya think?

The question I keep coming back to is were the magic systems of Devotion and Dominion ever not geographically locked? I mean Odium visited pretty early post-Shattering. Did the Shards in residence have time to establish magic systems before Odium mucked things up?

The Oathpact is not broken despite Honor's Shattering and 9 of 10 Heralds attempting to abandon it. Nale has his Honorblade. It's my belief that the Heralds are still directly powered by Honor, or at least the remnants of his power. They likely don't get the wattage they used to but in a world with few Radiants and not quite dominated by Fused they don't need all that much to be awesome. Of course we don't have proof of this but until we know otherwise that's what I believe. YMMV of course.

Scadrians would probably freak out if they saw an Iriali. Or an Earth Scandinavian.

Nale is a Herald and therefore has a direct connection to Investiture. He has no need for gems to recharge him. As for 5th Ideal benefits, I believe those are universal even though the path to get there is largely individual. Meaning that anyone reaching their ultimate Oath in their Order will get the same powers. The journey will be different but the destination is the same. And of course some people will still be more capable than others, more easily use their surges, ect. But there must be some baseline or there's no point in having a system with levels at all. I've said this before but I believe 5th Ideal comes with a soul merge between man and Spren. With a soul merge comes trade. A Physical being gets Cognitive privilege and a Cognitive being gets Physical privilege. Syl manifests as a fully grown woman when Kaladin bumps up to both second and Third ideals. With the 5th Oath she could do that at will. She doesn't have to be a Shardblade in the Physical and she'll be able to touch things as a human would. And she'd have full thinking capacity. Kal gets a full view screen into the Cognitive Realm to include how his surges look on the other side. His perspective widens and he gains a baseline level of mastery in his surges, he's more fuel efficient and less leaky. The problem I see with this is that it's probably going to feel like a letdown. It's not flashy like when you get a blade or manifest plate. Unless the jump in power from 4th to 5th is incredibly drastic and dramatic it's gonna be hard to not be disappointed by the journey. Also, how much more powerful are they really going to get? Dalinar at 3 is super charging people and dropping perpendicularities. Dalinar at 5 improves on that skill a little? Anyway, while I think I'm right about what comes with 5th Ideal Radiancy I would not be surprised if they got something more than that. I know it won't be perfect storage, that's been killed by WOB. It's not a direct plug in, that's the Heralds deal. Maybe it's consistent access to the Spiritual side of the Surges or bleed over to different capabilities. I guess we'll see.

The contest is going to go to either Vin or Kelsier. Emotional manipulation for the win.

While Ruin would find the practice abhorrent. I don't think Dominion or Ambition (had they lived) would condone the practice, but I'm sure Cultivation would be all for it if she didn't have to share a system. Devotion likely gives it a thumbs up, the unconfirmed Ingenuity Shard would likely find the practice of very limited utility. Badvadin makes Avatars; she'd probably see making Returned in her various magic systems as redundant. No hint on what the other Shardic intents are so I can't speculate on how they'd feel about the practice or whether it would align with their intent.

Sure Uncle Addie granted abilities with limitations when he was whole. If I were the one passing out the powers of creation I would impose limits too so as not to have someone challenging me. But there is a distinction between power and system to my mind. If one is gathering powers from different Shards I believe it serves as a workaround for the limitations imposed by system. Take the Hoid example for instance. He now has 2 forms of Illusion, making him a much more powerful illusionist than if he held either power alone. So let's say there are other Shards that grant an Illusion component and that somehow Hoid were able to meet the conditions to obtain that power. How much stronger would that power be? There's three possibilities, either they compound and thus create a more powerful surge, ever closer to what a God would employ, they cancel each other out due to wave interference, or they stay in tact but separate, to be used accordingly, like a toolbox with different sized wrenches. I subscribe to the first but the other possibilities are viable as well lMO.

Adonalasium had the full power suite before Shattering, thus had no need for Resonance. He likely didn't require any certain conditions to use such powers or to grant them to whomever he chose. Someone gaining a particular power like healing or Fortune manipulation from multiple Shard sources should therefore have no need for Resonance either as the ability gets more broken and OP. Because it isn't about gaining more powers per se. I'm not necessarily talking about becoming a Fullborn and a Radiant and an Elantrian and the like. It's more about Compounding, stacking the same power from different sources.