Bigmikey357

This raises a question for me, slightly off topic so forgive me. Say someone broke a vase a century ago and everyone who thought of that vase as a vase has long died. Then someone else comes along, sees the shards and reconstructs the vase. Does that reconstructed vase get its same soul back via Spiritual Realm shenanigans or does it get a new soul?

In-world our characters often speak of Divine Attributes as holdovers of Vorin theology with no other significance. They were supposedly modeled after what ancient peoples considered were the Heralds most notable noble characteristics. However, as the Final Desolation begins in earnest on Roshar people should begin seeing that some of those previously dismissed holdovers have more relevance than was once believed. The Divine Attributes are one of those ancient concepts I believe should regain relevance as the spren return to fulfill that ancient contract. I am of the opinion that the Divine Attributes have a definite and direct relationship with the Oaths a Knight Radiant speaks to solidify the Nahel Bond with their spren. Both of the Attributes are important, although they are applied differently. One involves what the Knight pledges, the other is what the Knight achieves by said pledge. The issue with my theory is of course that although we've seen at least one person from every Knight Radiant order we've only seen the words for half of them. However, I believe that it's a good sample size, especially considering that they are not on the same side of the Double Eye chart. Another issue is that they don't necessarily always map to primary secondary as listed. But I'll lay out the examples of the Oaths we do have and how they map to the attributes. People can then decide for themselves. Bondsmith: Pious/Guiding I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ” These Oaths are a guide for how men should live, especially if they are a Knight Radiant and double that if they are Bondsmiths. In adhering to these Oaths a Bondsmith strengthens their connection to God, becoming more pious almost by default. Windrunner: Protecting/Leading I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.-Kaladin This one is much more straightforward. Protection is what they are all about, it's even in the wording. In following these Oaths one becomes a better leader, for the essence of a good leader is one who cares about people, both those they serve and those they command. Note that this isn't the only way to lead, but the Windrunner does imply that this is either the best way or at least the only way that they will accept. Skybreaker: Just/Confident I will put the law before all else. There are other Oaths, they're the only Order for which we have their complete list. But to summarize, they are all about law. Justice. A budding Skybreaker chooses to follow the law, something external to themselves for they do not trust their own interpretation, fearing their own bias. Although they never completely lose this worldview their Oaths are designed towards making that Skybreaker more confident in their interpretation of law. What else is the Ideal of Crusade for if not to test a worldview against a reality and seeing what comes out the other side? Lightweaver: Creative/Honest The only Order that swears only one Ideal and advances on Truths instead, the honesty portion of the Divine attributes is obvious. The creativity portion is implied however. The spren of their order generally chose people who are creative already. As they shine light into the dark corners of their soul they are able to rise to greater heights of creativity, the better they can use the pain they find as fuel for their art. And since they sit on Cultivation's side of the double Eye, the better they grow. Edgedancer: Loving/Healing I will remember those who have been forgotten. I will listen to those who have been ignored. Though traditionally fierce and elegant on the battlefield, Edgedancers are best known for their healing prowess. They do so through acts of love. They love the people who are in need of it, the people for whom love has passed by and by doing so they heal. Even Nale, an insane Immortal, was touched by the healing of an Edgedancer, no awesomeness required. As an Edgedancer progresses they will be better able to heal wounds Stormlight cannot touch because their capacity for love grows with each Oath given. I suspect that the other Orders will follow a similar pattern and we have some indications of this through personality types. Jasnah seems wise, Renarin is Learned or at least has the potential to be, Venli has shown resolve more than once in the narrative and Taln is the most dependable human ever born. However without the words we cannot be 100% sure. There's even some uncertainty with the Orders we do have words for; that list is not complete. But I am more confident in those, using Skybreakers as a guide. I'm certainly willing to discuss places where we agree or disagree.

Humanity as a species is heirachal in nature. It makes sense that many of our stories, and most of our most enduring stories involve the nobility of those we choose to lead us. The King Arthur mythos, the pantheon of Gods in both Greek and Norse mythology, even Jesus was said to be descended from a long line of Kings like David and Solomon. In some instances both in stories and in real life noble lineage is manufactured. With these considerations in mind one cannot get around nobility when writing of epic events. The narrative demands connections to nobility. Even if the protagonist doesn't start noble, the farmboy rises to greatness scenario, they will be noble by book or series end. Look at Wheel of Time. Three small town kids at the start of the story. Three emperors at the end. To be fair, for those who are rooting for the common man to have more representation in the Cosmere, Brandon has tried to work around the nobility thing as much as realistically possible. The Azish emperor was once a common thief. The Lord Ruler began life as a common packman. He was overthrown by a street thief that was the daughter of a priest. Elend didn't Ascend as the lost rightful ruler, only a noble with good connections who was at the right place and the right time. If one objects to nobility in particular they might just be spinning their wheels. Monarchy is often the default, and even other systems of government treat the highest members of said government like nobility. Art imitates life.

The southern Scadrians are working under the auspices of a different Shard. Medallion technology doesn't develop without Harmonium. Look at it like this. 10 beads of Lerasium sustained 1000 years of Allomancers but through genetic dilution their powers were really weak. Another millennium to work on the problem and it would become almost untraceable in human populations. It may not completely disappear in the Scadrian human genome but you may only get a handful of people with any noticable magic. At which point it becomes easy for a Shard to identify, subdue or eliminate magic users. Basically Ruin should have let Rashek take the Well again.

The way Hemalurgy works, Ruin can make one individual with an limited lifespan powerful by taking at least one person and often several people out of his competitor"s system. The math is in Ruin's favor. It takes at least 10 people to make a Steel Inquisitor, 5 to make a Koloss, either 2 or 4 to make a Kandra. What I'm saying is it would take time for magic to die on Scadrial but time he had in plenty. And only a magic user would have had any chance of opposing Ruin.

Everyone who has read Mistborn knows the story by now. 2 Shards come to build a world, the promise being that what one creates the other gets to destroy. Only the Shards themselves know why they entered into this agreement but we know the results. Magic systems in the Cosmere are born due to the interaction between planetary system and Shardic intents. Well something happened to the magic system of Scadrial. Whether it was on purpose or a side effect of a promise between creators, the Metallic Arts reflect this promise. Allomancy and Feruchemy are unique among Cosmere magics in that they are passed down genetically. That would not be a problem if the trait was dominant, but it's a recessive. And with so few people granted the power in the first place the power is diluted fairly quickly, at least by Shardic timelines. Without the power play between Ruin and Preservation both Allomancy and Feruchemy would have eventually died out among its people. Sure Leras could have reinfused the system every few centuries, passed out beads to worthy people, but Ruin would have likely opposed the move, either directly or by using his agents out with aluminum spikes. Basically Ruin wasn't patient enough, strange for an immortal. He could have let the magic system die and made it easier for him to claim his biggest prize, the destruction of Scadrial, without magic users to oppose him. Fortunately for the inhabitants of Scadrial he over reached and got vindicated for his troubles.

For the Dysians I agree 100 percent. The Sians? I believe they are native. You can't use the Rosharan naming conventions as proof of anything; they put wide umbrellas on everything. Anything with wings is a chicken. A lion for them would be some type of mink. Grouping the Siah and Dysian in itself is one of the most insane variants of Rosharan naming conventions as it is obvious as breathing that the two species don't belong together in any way. Anyway, I believe that the Siah Amians are a native species to Roshar, just not to its Physical Realm. I believe that they evolved in Shadesmar. The wrong way shadows, their malleability and their near immortality are all characteristic of a being more related to the spren than any Physical Realm inhabitant has any right to be. And as for being Cosmere aware, well they would tend to meet many worldhoppers in Shadesmar.

They share the Gravitation surge but Skybreakers have Division as their 2nd surge while Windrunners have Adhesion.

The application of this surge would be difficult for the in-world scholars to discover. You guys have thrown enough aerodynamics lingo at me to believe in the possibility at least. It's like the Alcubierre drive only using air as the medium instead of space time, right? The scholars have the math to make this theoretically possible but culturally they're going to find it difficult to overcome traditional trains of thought. Windrunners and Skybreakers fly. They do so using Gravitation surge. They have a proven way in place, one that needs no experimentation and is more widely understood. What would be the impetus for finding another way?

Makes me want to see a side by side comparison between the Heralds at their most glorious vs their current incarnations. Nale and Ishar probably look the most like what they used to while Jezrian (RIP) and Taln probably offer the most contrast.

Another theme you could use is Sanderson's take on the origin of religion, and using religion as a tool for revolutionary action both in itself and against a theocracy.

I'm not sure about the Megaspren theory; I suppose it's possible but I'd need more evidence to be convinced. But there is something that may validate your theory, the appearance of Oathgates in the CR. The black one looks an awful lot like an oversized Inkspren. Thing is though, Shards can create spren. Who is to say Honor didn't make limited edition spren for the Oathgates?

Yeah but everyone has different Oaths. They run along the same theme but still different Oaths. Even the super regulated Skybreakers have different Oaths. I just believe that the Bondsmiths vary a bit more than the other Orders.

They get the same standard 2 as dictated by their Order plus those Super Connection powers we've seen Dalinar display in OB. Not opening perpendicularities, that's from his remnant of Honor, but the language thing is viable, the Radiant boosting too. I just think they get a little extra depending on which spren they bond, and that's going to be the only difference between them.

This is a God created framework. Shards cannot deny power if conditions are met but they can certainly shape a magic system. Harmony replaced two metals in the Metallic Arts after all, I don't see it being outside the realm of possibility that a fully powered Honor and Cultivation couldn't fix it so that parts of their power adheres to a framework. Personally I don't think their Oaths would be that different, just slightly more Individualized than a Radiant from another Order other than Lightweavers of course. And I believe that their primary purpose, to unite instead of Divide, will be the same regardless of the Godspren they bond with. But those spren are nearly (or in SF case, actual) Shard avatars. Their entire power cannot be pushed into a framework with less capable spren; some of that extra power will leak out, it must go somewhere. The Bondsmiths should be able to channel the extra power into something that reflects their unique purpose in the ecology of Roshar while still running the KR.

To start off, I once subscribed to a theory that a Bondsmith had more options than our traditional 3 (Stormfather Nightwatcher Sibling) based almost entirely by a quote in the in world text Words of Radiance. But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious From the use of the word seditious I figured that 3 Bondsmiths in a generation was an Order imposed upper limit, that there could be generations of KR that had 3 Bondsmiths where none of them were the 3 we know of. After all there must be other megaspren on Roshar considering how sapient beings, humans in particular, tend to personify things. However I'm rethinking this. I'm currently rereading OB and the Spren seem to disagree with me. SF says there are only 3 when speaking to Dalinar, Captain Notum says that there's only three when he converses with Stormblessed. Now Spren aren't omniscient and they can always be mistaken, yet I'm sure they know enough of the arrangement to know whether a thing can be done, at least according to their bond. Complicating my assertions is Odium and what he proved at Thaylen City. With the right conditions humans could always bind with Spren. This kinda creates a disconnect, at least for me. If any spren can be bonded, why are their only 3 Bondsmith spren? Extrapolate this even further, I'm sure there are more sapient spren than the varieties that make up the Knights. We've seen one type already in the mistspren. So what happens if a human encounters one, meets the conditions for a bond and actually makes it happen? Is Odium lying or is there something to this? My eventual conclusion is that there was a dividing line in Roshar history, and that line was the establishment of the Knights Radiant. Previously the conditions were wild wild west chaotic. The young Nohadon vision seems to indicate that anyone who attracted a Spren was a ticking time bomb/ potential despot. And all spren were on the table, from lesser spren like flame and Windspren to more powerful sapient spren like those who currently form Nahel bonds though not limited to them, even to our favorite Megaspren. Cusiech was likely one who could be bonded, maybe the Spren of Stone worshipped by the Shin, really if you could manage to make a connection you got power. Bond a flamespren, get an effect similar to bronze Feruchemy. Bond a higher order type Flamespren and become Johnny Storm. The only limitation was whether you could manage that connection. Honor would be right to worry that Roshar was heading down the path to Ashyn 2.0 so in conjunction with Ishar, binder of Gods, the Knights Radiant were established. Spren were put into production that granted Surgebinding, along with 3 preexisting Megaspren that would grant their bandmates incredible powers to ride herd on these new surgebinders. Then he shut down everyone else's pathway. You could still bind spren that weren't in the KR mix but you'd need a device to make it work. Plus those surges you command would be far weaker than what you got with a Nahel bond, with less protections. And Honor would always be there in case things got outta hand again, course correcting for as long as the war with Odium lasted. But the Heralds failed and Honor eventually died. And since he was suffering from something like dementia at the end he never got a chance to course correct his creation at the end. Certain overlooked pathways remained open or were forced open by the various Unmade, so now if they but discover it some bonds outside the KR structure have again become possible. I think that I've given a reasonable approximation of what happened given the clues we've received so far. Any thoughts?

The Eshonai I was referring to was her earlier incarnation, unreliable, lover of adventures, prone to wonder off at a whim, lover of map making. Early Eshonai fits all that we've been told a Willshaper resembles in temperament. The way in which she is similar to Venli lies in exploration, although it's expressed differently. Regardless, the soul of a diplomat to me is the same as the drive that makes a Worldsinger, someone who finds joy in differences. They need not be diplomatic always but the love of difference drives them to the next journey. I have some trouble placing Willshapers into the KR job structure. If not diplomats then what would they be? I don't believe they're engineers or scholars for other Orders fit that role better IMO (Dustbringer and Elsecaller respectively). Another possibility would be scouts but Windrunners have that on lock per WOB. They aren't overly political nor overly militaristic. They share some common ground with merchants if the Rsyn chapters are anything to go by but they aren't totally that either. Diplomat for me checks the most boxes. And note, for all Eshonai's faults her people did make her an ambassador for them anyway, one with a strong voice despite her youth relative to the Five. Gotta count for something.

We corresponded in your Oath Pattern post. Different interpretation but not necessarily contradictory.

@Karger No argument on this one other than the underlying Oath structure which is still complimentary to my own theory as u know.

Kinda creepy even before the theory. Even creepier now.

@Karger Upon reading your theory and the Word of Issac it's difficult for me to refute. Although Spensa does have an affinity for tinkering that's not quite a core personality trait for her. The abrasive personality seems much more in line with her Order. So maybe for me the characterization of a Dustbringer is one of purposeful engineering. They don't want knowledge to horde as many scholars do. They are only interested in practical knowledge, useful information to accomplishing goals or missions. They're also more likely to have a gruff exterior and gooey center. Look at their gem archive entry. And it's telling that they sit right next to Edgedancers on the double Eye. They are guarded with their feelings because they feel so deeply. And if they were as hard hearted as they appear to outsiders they wouldn't protest their name nearly as much.

@Karger Personally speaking I thought the Dustbringers were the tinkering Order although from the post I understand your reasoning behind your supposition. Their spren have been described as ones that like to take things apart to see how they work. Although Malata has so far shown no signs of a tinkering nature we don't know much about her at this point in time. The main reason why I disagree with the thrust of this post is that none of the Oaths proposed fit Eshonai. Venli bonded Timbre but it was her sister that drew her from the Cognitive Realm in the first place. Venli was a stopgap not a perfect fit like say Shallan for Lightweaver or Kaladin for Windrunner. As for the job they'd perform in the Knights original incarnation, I'd have called them more diplomat than inventor. I could be wrong though.

We all know that Odium is the bad guy, terrifying in visage and in power. The Shard killer, spren shudder in fear at the mention of his name. But it wasn't until Oathbringer that we found out how he operates. He and his minions always encourage people to give up their pain, to let go, to give in to the void as if dumping water into a well. Well it has become apparent to me that the Heralds knew their ancient enemy, for in the creation of the Knights Radiant orders they gave their followers the perfect words to fight against the void. Every Knight or perspective Knight speaks the words of the first Ideal. Even though the words can and are interpreted differently for every individual their primary purpose is fighting against the very tactic Odium uses. Give in and embrace the end? Life before Death. Give me your pain? Strength before Weakness. It's not your fault? You were doing only what comes naturally to you? Journey before Destination. The very words codified in the First Ideal are a block to Odium's entire recruiting strategy. This is something I only realized in retrospect, perhaps because we got the ideals before we even knew what those Ideals guarded against. Thoughts?

The 5th Ideal would probably be dangerous in any Order, not just Skybreakers. That's probably why they save it for last, after the Radiant has gone through the trials initiated through he swearing of the other 4.

The jobs that a Bondsmith may engage in, to me, are irrelevant. They could all serve the same functions and they all get the same general powers afaik, but my argument stems from the fact that SF, NW, the Sib and any other god level spren that we aren't yet aware of are all different whereas all Honorspren are the same. All Cultivationspren are the same. All Cryptics and lightspren and highspren are the same type of spren. It would make sense if they got different jobs, different responsibilities and so on. It was said of the ancient Radiants that one was always in accompaniment of Urithiru and its throne for instance. But it doesn't have to be that way.