Bigmikey357

Ok we have a Mistborn vs Else thread and the topic of Fullborn came up. Now I believe that we can all agree that a Fullborn is the most combat capable, most OP type of magic user in the Cosmere. Nothing short of a Shard is beating a Fullborn one on one. So my question is simple. What would it take to kill a Fullborn on a rampage? Could Nightblood do it? How much of a team would you need and what would be their composition? Would one type of magic user be enough or would it take several different magic systems? Or can it just not be done and someone would have to nuke a continent to get the job done? I'd appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

There was. And Fullborn are incredibly OP. In fact I'm not sure if all 10 Heralds together could take one on and win.

For most groups in the Cosmere a Mistborn will be able to kill their opponents regardless of terrain or other factors. As for the groups of people they cannot win against terrain isn't much of a factor either. They cannot beat a Fullborn or inquisitor with F-gold, they cannot beat an Elantrian on their home turf, they can't beat a Herald, I don't know what they'd even do with a Level IV Biochromatic entity and my guess is that the higher the Heightening of the Awakener, the less effective a Mistborn's bag of tricks will be. That leaves Radiants for us to ponder over. I can see that there would be some terrain and situations that would favor a Mistborn over a Radiant, some strategies that would work well against one order or another. Of course that takes knowledge, surveillance, things of the like. They'd hardly need bronze to determine what type of knight they're dealing with; surges are flashy. But much of their advantage in subterfuge is negated by spren serving as a early warning system, one that the Mistborn cannot possibly detect. Can a Mistborn beat a Radiant in spy vs spy if the spren is on high alert? My guess is that the Radiant kills the Mistborn in many more scenarios than the reverse. The edge gets closer with the use of primer cubes, guns and Atium in the Mistborn's favor, but they still must play a guessing game initially as to what type of Radiant they deal with. All a Radiant needs to do is identify the Mistborn, and I'm assuming a spren looking into the CR will be able to do that no problem. I guess what it boils down to for me is that too many factors have to be in the Mistborn column for them to have a chance. I mean if the Mistborn had a pocket full of primer cubes and several vials of metals on hand including a bunch of Atium and a couple Vindicators and knowledge of the exact surges they'll have to combat and the element of surprise they might have a shot of killing a Radiant with living armor and blade. Meanwhile if Mistborn and Radiant happened to meet up in the street the Radiant beats him 8 or 9 times outta 10. I agree that the full Feruchemist would fare better against the Radiant and also that a Fullborn beats the brains outta a Herald.

Only while the Chromium user is holding the Radiant and actively burning. Once he lets go the Shardblade is back in play, and his pouch is still full of Stormlight unless the Mistborn happens to grab both man and stormpouch. Like I said, if the Mistborn cannot manage to kill the guy right then and there, then most likely he dies. 3rd I believe. Pattern blade but no plate. Vin was a Mistborn as an infant. Are we putting baby Vin in a circle with young Shallan and have them duel to the death? Not likely. We're pitting 2 grown up, reasonably trained magic users against each other. Your point is likely that there can be inept or poorly trained Radiants, particularly in this era when they're rediscovering their powers. Lift for example is well on her way to Oath 4 and presumably Shardplate. If we were to pit her up against say, Shan Elarial then Lift is probably a goner. But why in the world would anyone do that? It has been awhile since I read Warbreaker so I'm a bit fuzzy concerning what powers Returned get other than immortality. My thought on Returned was that as Cognitive Shadows they'd be impossible to kill by any means other than deprivation of their 1 breath a week. So while the Mistborn really has nothing to fear when facing one they couldn't finish the job. Meanwhile the Returned could use that Divine Breath like a reaper death seal, using their life to end the Mistborn. I could be mistaken. It may not work in that manner. That was just my thought process behind placing them where I did. But a 5th Heightening Awakener has a healing factor too, don't they?

Chromium only drains kinetic investiture if I recall correctly, so draining the Stormlight from the Radiant does nothing to the stormlight in his or her pouch. Plus, pewterarms can punch hard enough to break bones but not hard enough to kill immediately, at least not unless you were made Mistborn via Lerasium. Even then, unless you kill the guy with one shot Stormlight still has a chance to heal the guy. You're going to have to do the leecher thing more than once and, once the Radiant is aware of the danger, it's going to be nearly impossible to pull the same trick twice. Now let's go to the list of surges to see how to combat a Mistborn without using any esoteric methods. Adhesion: make an area of the battlefield sticky. Mistborn gets caught up. While trying to get free Radiant closes distance and boom. Dead. Gravitation: Radiant much more maneuverable because flight doesn't require anchors. Can play keep away while slinging projectiles, forcing Mistborn to expend Atium to dodge. Atium runs out, Mistborn gets hit with plate enhanced boulder throw. Division: hit directly with flame or make wall of flame to restrict movement, guiding Mistborn movements to a place of their choice. May be questionable. But we know via WOB that division works on people so I guess it's a Matter of who touches who first. Abrasion: make the battlefield surface slippery, unbalance the Mistborn, make them steel push to get at the Radiant. Chaos ensues. Illumination: if you can't discern the threat... Plus, the way Truthwatchers would use the surge might negate Atium. Transformation: Soulcast metals into smoke, lose most of your offensive firepower. Tension: turn your weapons into rubber... Cohesion: turn the ground into quicksand. Progression: can tank any hit Transportation: Mistborn can't catch the guy to leech them. Finally, Shardblades don't need Stormlight to summon. And even if a Steelpush can effect a shard blade or plate, both can be dismissed and summoned instantly if alive. If Mistborn is pushing or pulling on it, dismiss it and only use it to block projectile. The Mistborn has to drain the Radiant and all their reserves to have a chance, and they still have to deal with a soul severing weapon. I suppose a Mistborn could kill a Radiant but it's going to take an incredibly skilled Mistborn and an incredibly inept Radiant. And I don't think you can reach level 4 or 5 if you're inept.

Requires touch and time, so kinda OP but can be checked, especially if one knows what they are. Best usage is if someone has the element of surprise or subterfuge at their disposal.

I'm honestly surprised that there is still debate over whether a regular Mistborn could beat a Radiant. I believe that they're the only group in debate so far as I know but still. Basically for all the power and versatility a Mistborn has, they are primarily offensive in their skill set. As Vin shows that can be a lot of offensive firepower indeed. They are even more formidable if you give one some Era 2 weaponry and Atium. Even still, they have limited defense. So their strategy versus any opposition is going to be to either overwhelm the opponent or dodge until the other guy runs out of fuel while launching ranged attacks. Either way they cannot take a hit from a sufficiently strong adversary. Pewter can do much but it's not healing. Thing is, they cannot outmaneuver a Radiant of the 4th or 5th Oath. Each order has something to either run rings around them or retard their movements, save Edgedancers. But Edgedancers heal faster than the other Orders and so are able to take more damage. Their isn't much a Mistborn can do to a Radiant from afar, they must get close to do any lasting damage. But close in on someone with Shardplate is going to be the most dangerous place to be. Atium will help with that but it burns fast and you're not 1 shot killing a Radiant. Honestly so many things would have to go right for a Mistborn to defeat a Radiant that it's akin to plot armor or Shardic intervention, like Vin dropping TLR.

I gotta say I love arguing versus battles, it really makes one apply Cosmere knowledge and research. Anyway, Mistborn are very strong, quite versatile, and are potent fighters. But there are better Cosmere groups as well as worse ones. This is the list to the best of my understanding. Of course YMMV. Run on Sight: This group has no chance and should do all possible not to provoke a Mistborn into action as they certainly get killed. Normal humans, most any form of Singer, Sand Master, Forger, Elantrian away from home, Awakener below 5th Heightening, single Koloss, any Aether Holder, regular Shardbearer. On Par: With this group it comes down to outside factors like skill, terrain, strength of power, stuff like that. Almost a toss up. Full Feruchemist, Radiant(3 Oath and below), Shade, most Cognitive Shadows, Returned, Dakhor Monk (close to home), Kandra, fabrial assisted soulcasters. No Worries: It would probably take an act of God for a Mistborn to defeat one of these. Atium counts since it is a Godmetal, but even with that this group of monsters are basically unkillable for the Mistborn skill set. Full Radiant (Living Blade/ Plate + Surges), Fullborn, Inquisitors, Fused, Awakened Blade, Awakener +5th Heightening, Heralds, Shards, Splinters, Slivers, Elatrians at home, avatars, and likely dragons.

You're referring to the allomantic grenade scene I'm assuming. Thing is, we don't really know if that was instantaneous. The cube was activated and a few moments later Wax tried to use his metals and they were gone. It was quick but I don't think it was instant. Then we have the WOB that says Chromium burns quickly. So a burst of it may not leech away all investiture. A Radiant in living Shardplate is one of the most invested entities in the Cosmere. Only a Fullborn or a 5th + Heightening Awakener has more. So if you're a Leecher you'd better make absolutely sure you have enough time and fuel before stepping in range of a Radiant. Atium is also a game changer, but Radiants can do range attacks too. Ranged Soulcasting for Elsecallers, gravity propelled projectile tosses for Windrunners, whatever crazy things Dustbringers can manage, Lightweavers and lasers (when they discover them), Stonewards and Willshapers liquefying the ground, and every one of them with the strength, speed and dexterity at least equivalent to the average Thug. Radiant, particularly 3+ Oaths, breaks average Mistborn.

There are 2 issues with Chromium. Physical contact and time. Even if I were to touch you to leech, it's going to take a few seconds to drain you at least. And if I'm close enough to touch that means you're close enough to hit me back. I am quite sure that I don't want to be anywhere close to a Plated individual without a healing factor. One punch and I'm dead.

A run of the mill Mistborn gets smoked by any Radiant with Plate and Blade. Sure they're versatile, but the can't heal. And their range advantage cannot break through Shardplate without duraluminun. A Radiant tanks 3 or 4 of those pushes and the Mistborn is going to eventually run out of metal. Plus, a Mistborn without metal is a normal human. A Radiant without Stormlight still has a blade that cuts souls. A Full Feruchemist with fully stocked metal metalminds likely kills a full Mistborn more than half the time too. At that point though it comes down to the skill level of the combatants.

Cuseich of the many faces

It's certainly a possibility as well. A possible argument against this is that according to Teft's spren as well as all our evidence, all human bandmates are broken people. The mechanism for the bond requires that people be cracked so that spren can fill them. If Odium is a part of what makes a KR, all well and good. But if he isn't then why would he perpetuate the establishment of a force that opposes him, a force he took great pains to eliminate (Recreance)? Still, we as readers only have about a quarter of the picture so far; we can't dismiss Odium out of hand without more information.

As to Roshar, Brandon has stated previously that we're not getting more than 3 Shards involved in the main storyline. As for the Irali and their move to Scadrial, I suppose it's plausible that they made a deal with Odium. The question for me though is, do they really need Odium to immigrate? I mean they moved before, and probably without Shardic intervention. If they want to leave so bad then why would they accept aid from an entity that at least on the surface seems untrustworthy. It could be that they have no choice, that all previous moves were by will of a Shard, or that in the centuries they lost the knowledge. However, if I were Irali I'd have tried to leave Roshar ages ago what with Desolations, the Recreance, the rise and fall of the Heirocracy and those pesky world conquering Alethi.

Oh SF is certainly keeping information back. It seems their nature is to wait for people to discover things on their own before divulging information to confirm. Syl does this specifically with Kaladin although to a lesser degree, and it seems they all do something of it, save Skybreakers. The spren that lean more toward Cultivation seem to feel that restriction less so than the Spren on the Honor side of the Double Eye, yet they all engage in the practice somewhat. Another possibility is that Tanavast is guiding Roshar though Spiritual Realm manipulation. He could have set things up long ago in a place where all time is one. The only issue with that theory is that Honor sucks at Fortune. If he was any good at it he would have never accepted the proposal of the Oathpact from the Heralds. Both the other Shards in system are better than he is, so any manipulation would seem to go poorly if he's running the show.

We've also seen the Stormfather do some hurtful stuff to the heroes as well. See Battle of Narak. But that does raise an interesting question. Does Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow have enough volition to take a hand on the destiny machine? Maybe guided by Cultivation, to whom he had a double Connection (Shard to Shard as well as Husband and Wife)?

I'm not trying to use the term in its traditional sense, I'm thinking more literally. I'm sure Cultivation has more of her hand in events than we've been shown. I also believe she can't take too much of a hand when she's got Odium to think about. Still, Syl and Kaladin's relationship doesn't have the feel of Cultivation and her touch. The way the Radiants are being gathered and drawn together seem influenced by Cultivation but also not entirely of her own doing. Could Honor, vessel-less, have it's hand on the rudder blind? I really really really wanna know what that's all about. There could be something to that. In a meta way we know Brandon is writing the script, I'm just lost as to his narrative stand in. On other Cosmere plants it's quite clear. Harmony on Scadrial, formerly Ruin and Preservation fighting for control in the longest cold war imaginable, Edgli on Nalthis as the only shard present, Badvadin on Taldain the same, broken Shards on Threnody and Sel that make magic and fortune flow oddly. Roshar's situation is unique as all get out though. Is it so confused there that the God Beyond has to take a hand?

It's a definite possibility. After all, one has to transverse between planets to worldhop, they must be walking on something right? As far as CR landscapes, I believe the bead ocean and the glass waterways is local to Roshar. Kelsier saw nothing of the sort when he was traipsing through Scadrial's CR, just a world of see through mist and faded reflections of the PR. And with the Dor running loose in Sel's CR I imagine that it looks more like some kind of sparkling hell. Point is, although I might not like it it's probably more feasible to build the system independently, each local entity taking advantage of the unique qualities of their own CR's, and then connecting the lines later. My issue with that is that it lacks uniformity and so quality control will suffer.

So I'm just beginning my reread of SA. I'm not all that far into it but what I have read reminded me of a conversation held between Kaladin and Syl. He seemed to think he was cursed by surviving when everyone he tries to protect dies. Syl responds by saying maybe he survives because he's being saved for a purpose. It made me think about all the times our main cast has been in danger or faced impossible odds only to come out the other side no worse for wear at best, battered but functional at worse. Deus ex machina literally translates to God in the machine and as we know is often used to describe hand-wavy solutions to narrative problems. Our MC's survival doesn't feel like that. It's more like deities taking a part in the proceedings more directly, kinda like how Harmony guides Wax in Mistborn Era 2. Putting this in the perspective of SA is problematic however. Honor is dead, and although he left behind some influences the power is largely undirected. Cultivation is thought to have withdrawn from men and their problems and though events with Dalinar, King T and Lift make that claim look suspect I don't think she's meddling as much as she has a right to. Mostly I think she's keeping some cards in case Odium makes a push but is mostly hands off. And I truly don't think Odium is saving people up that will oppose him later (Dalinar was a miscalculation he's not likely to repeat). So my question is at its root, pretty simple. Who is running the fate and destiny machine on Roshar?

The cheap labor aspect is only necessary in the building of the infrastructure in whatever form that eventually takes. Once built there is no need for such a huge labor force. I should have clarified in my previous comment. The raw materials in Scadrial's case would not be a problem. The labor force would be the sticking point for them. As for the limited amount of Metalborn, I would embark on an aggressive recruiting campaign to lure them to my business venture if medallion tech isn't already advanced enough for my purposes. As for Shardic participation, all I'd ask of one is to open up some perpendicularities or at the very least not to interfere with the project. I would not ask for active participation or for help in management though I could not stop them from taking a hand if they so wished it. I'd like to think that once it's up and running enough of the Shardic community would find it beneficial to the Cosmere as a whole to want to keep it from being interfered with by their more malevolent members, though I admit that could be wishful thinking. Quick note, me and Silverlight definitely need to have a conversation regarding this project, particularly covering the properties of the CR and how they might relate to the building of permanent structures there. There's going to be so much legwork involved. The only good thing that I don't have to worry about is land grants, at least in regions with less busy CR presence. I'd almost say I'd do Roshar last because of the Spren. Maybe if you could store the Dor in gems like you can stormlight... Hmmmm.

That was Brandon wanting to be different. The properties of aluminum were originally going to go to silver but he gave that up pretty early in his writing process. Plus he wanted a metal that was exceedingly rare in pre industrial times but was common afterwards. His eyes were set on working out the kinks in era 3/4 Mistborn kinda from the beginning.

The problem of trade did not readily occur to me, though I did wonder about funding sources. And of course the way to get investors is by providing self interest. Scadrial as an industrial planet with a dearth of population needs 2 things, cheap labor and raw materials. Nalthis can provide the cheapest labor imaginable,but they have no need for raw materials because the world is empty. Roshar can trade tech once they figure out how to make fabrials work out of system. If they cannot they could still make a killing in live flora and fauna, flora that grows in adverse conditions and unique as all get out animal specimens. As for Elantrans? I'm honestly not sure but what I am sure of is someone there is likely to think of something. Aviary from Drominad, silver from Threnody, special sands from Taldain. I wouldn't be the only person thinking about ways to make a buck once the idea becomes closer to reality.

Maybe awakened constructs would be a better initial idea considering fueling constraints. Then again, there are many ways to generate electricity and I can think of a few ways it can be generated by aid of investiture. Still, research would definitely be ongoing to find the most efficient ways to do this, and upgrade accordingly. As far as food and water, the Scadrian Canning industry factors largely in my plans. Depots all over with canned goods to feed passengers on long trips. Only the luxury liners would load fresh food for premium prices. In fact, I'm recruiting Scadrians en masse for this project anyway; their magic works independently of their planet. Of course I can recruit locally too. Spren things for the Rosharan CR for example. But there's gonna be Scadrians everywhere in this project. As for Sel, I think something could be done with ettmetal leecher insulation. Maybe someone could even find a way to harness all that free Investiture for fuel or propulsion. Again, research is ongoing. As far as CR permanence, I would like to get in touch with Silverlight, see if they'd provide me with surveyors. They're already doing maps. Spiritual Realm is weird. I'm not sure if I would even want to mess with it on a mass Transit scale. Even If I were to figure it out I'd likely reserve it for emergency personnel and purposes.

My vision was always mechanical in nature. I was thinking trains local, planes between worlds. Scadrial and canning foods factors pretty high in my estimates. I think I'd have to approach a Shard and obtain at least initial cooperation. They can make perpendicularities more easily than any magic user not named Dalinar Kholin and have enough power to derail the process before it starts. Cultivation could be on board if I stress the growth of all species through interactions with each other, Harmony seems pro technology and could be persuaded also. All I need is one planet as proof of concept and I'm sure others will follow. My target planet for the startup venture would be Nalthis. They've already have a customs office which suggests favorable infrastructure; it lends itself to scaling up.

Let's say I'm an enterprising, Cosmere-aware individual. In addition to wanting to make tons of money, I feel that it would be beneficial for all the sapient species in the Cosmere to have closer ties to one another, if for no other reason than to keep a random, belligerent Shard from murdering everyone on a whim. So I get the bright idea, Cosmere Mass Transit! So now comes my brainstorming session. What form would it take? Trains, Planes, Automobiles? How would I get material? What about my Labor force? The planetary populations we've read about so far are mighty short and I imagine it's going to take a lot of Labor. Maybe Lifeless? Are the local conditions present in the CR conducive to such a large scale building project? I can see issues coming from Sel local especially on that score. And of course how do I incorporate magic users into this venture, as we as who else can I get to help me pay for it all. Basically I have a vision that this is a feasible project, one that can be accomplished without reliance upon quantum leap discoveries involving FTL travel through the Physical Realm. Does anyone else think that this venture could be successful or am I just a foolish dreamer? Any ideas to overcome some of the issues as well as any issues I haven't foreseen are welcome.