Bigmikey357

Brandon has been mighty vague in regard to Heralds and Honorblades both. What we've been specifically told about Heralds is that they have rebirth and a direct connection to Honor. We've seen Honorblades grant surges. And that's all we got so far. Now, Moash and Szeth, the current and former holder of Jezrien's blade, did not and will not get a direct stormlight feed from Honor, and likely would not get one even were Tanavast alive in the current storyline. Neither one will get rebirth either. So the quote indicates that a holder is close to herald like only without Oaths. But nothing of what we've seen on screen of the Honorblades in action indicates this. A wet behind the ears, non-fully oathed Windrunner owned an Honorblade user with a couple decades of experience in its use. Everything we've seen so far indicates that an Honorblade is an inferior tool to someone who has a Nahel Bond. Basically I am saying that we're missing something or haven't been shown something. Odium isn't going to the efforts he did to get an Honorblade and disconnect it from its original holder if it's just an inferior surgebinding tool. There's gotta be some undiscovered features. It may not be plate, you guys have a point in that the contribution could have come from the Singers and their organic carapace, but something is going on. There's always another secret.

I don't know if Honorblade grants plate but I'm fairly certain that we haven't been shown the full capacity of Honorblades quite yet. Heralds had a direct link to Honor and so could use the Surges that Honorblades grant to much more devastating effect, but that says everything about Heralds and nothing about Honorblades. If Stormfather says there's more to the blade than Surges then I am inclined to believe him. And Plate is a possibility; where would Spren get the idea for it otherwise?

Crazy oddball theory. We know that Adonalasium built the entire Rosharan system for some reason. What if that anomaly is another one of his experiments? He could have some type of construct in every system except for Scadrial which was rebuilt at least twice. Think, he could have planted so much stuff out there in anticipation of his eventual shattering. As to what it is or what it does, under my theory it could be practically anything. If not from Uncle Addy though, it could be an Investiture storehouse maintained in the CR by Edgli herself. She seems pretty confident that she can outright murder Odium if he wants to throw down despite his record. I thought she may be delusional. If she's holding a big hammer in reserve then she may be right.

I'd likely place it at close to the same range as the books, maybe only a little further but not much. It would suck if they were trying to invade but a really tough nut to crack defensively.

Indeed. And nothing in my scenario keeps knights from progression. Most Orders only need 3 Oaths to get a living blade and all Radiants can heal themselves with enough Stormlight. Guns are a huge advantage, don't get me wrong. But the planet most able to mitigate that advantage is Roshar.

A squad of modern rifles likely could shred Shardplate but not Scadrial level ones. 2 reasons. Muzzle velocity is going to be awfully low and the rate of fire isn't going to be as high. It takes training to get a squad like what you are proposing to get a rate of fire up enough to defeat a determined force charging all in Shardplate. Even then consider if these troops have Plate they're going to have blades too. The blades are indestructible and can morph into shields at the speed of thought. So front rank Radiants charge with a shield wall, back rank gets in close to take out firing squad while they're reloading.

Don't forget that since there's 4 combatants,the possibility for alliances exist. For example, Scadrial's tech edge over the other three means they may be the biggest initial threat. And while I think Scadrians are a match for any of the other 3 world's one-on-one, they are going to have a problem with multiple world's if they decide to gang up. Or one believes Rosharan forces pose the largest threat, having Scadrial as an ally would help immensely for either Sel or Nalthis. Elantrians seem like natural negotiators, they should have no issues forming an alliance. That 90 day ramp up if for more than preparing an army, it's for forming Hunger Games type alliances, aka temporary ones.

The timeframe of the latest published work seems fair to me. But every magic system that world has is in play. So Roshar gets Knights, Singer/Listeners and Fabrials, Scadrians get twinborn and guns as well as Hemalugy and medallions, Sel gets Forgery, Blood sealing and whatever the Dakhor monks are doing. Nalthis gets the short end of the stick since I don't recall them having anything besides Awakening. I know Brandon said there were other magic systems on Nalthis but we haven't seen them so they don't factor in. But they will have the use of ichor alcohol for Lifeless, condensed cost for command technology and Nightblood since Nalthis is its planet of origin.

Okay here's the premise. All 4 of the big Shardworlds participate in a planetary battle Royale for Cosmere supremacy. The catch is that God Level users are excluded. So TLR is out for Scadrial, Roshar cannot have the Heralds, Susebron and the Returned cannot fight for Nalthis. Sel keeps Elantrians because they have no other comparative God users (Dead Shards). Any magic system native to their world can be used on the planet in conflict along with the fuel in the amounts that they'd normally get. Each has a home city on the planet in conflict, 500,000 people a piece, but with their magic users being proportional to their numbers on the home planet, at least initially. More magic users created from the total population is permitted. No reinforcements from home. 90 days to organize their forces. So who wins?

Lightweavers/Dustbringers. All an enemy sees is flame, but which one is real?

@SzethIsBadAsHell I didn't say form wasn't important at all in regards to bonding. That would be an oversimplification. But form cannot be the only factor. The soul of a person has to play a role as well because the soul of the person will dictate how that form is expressed. A form alone won't deter a Spren attracted to a Singer,nor will a form alone attract a Nahel Spren. I disagree that Eshonai was totally dominated by Stormform. Yes her personality changed drastically from her warform incarnation but I don't believe that, had she lived, that the change would have been permanent. Remember, Stormform was unlike any form she had ever taken, she was bound to be swamped by it at first. But she could have learned to master the form with time. Venli had much more experience with voidforms so it looks like she was better able to master them when we see her in the narrative. What I was saying in regards to my earlier comment is that if forms were the be all end all then Venli should have been even less able to fight the form's influence and gain a bond with Timbre. It's not even about the Spren at this point. It's about the form. Stormform is a form of power but those that take that form aren't considered Regals, right? It's a lesser voidspren that grants that form. Envoyform however is a Regal voidform and thus the gem heart holds a more powerful Spren, closer to Odium. His influence should have crowded out any honor-ish type influences, it should have completely enslaved her mind to him. That obviously didn't happen. Because it didn't happen that way, we can make a conjecture. One of two things happened. Either Venli was so special that she could shake off Odium's influence while wearing a form that should have prevented that very thing from happening, or the forms only influence thought and not soul, and soul is what a Spren looks for.I think it's the latter. YMMV.

Yet by your definition Venli should never have been able to bond with Timbre. Why would a higher form from Odium result in a person who is more able to resist? That seems like poor planning to me.

Eshonai spoke about this when she muses about forms in WOR. They can influence a person's thinking and attitude but it's up to the person themselves to be a form's master and not the other way around. Otherwise no one would ever be able to change forms at all. Now would it be difficult for a Singer to pick up a Spren that's incompatible with the form they're in at the moment? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be impossible and I don't think that it is. Besides, a Nahel Spren isn't looking at day to day activities per se, but at the soul of a being it seeks to initiate a bond with. A person's soul informs that person's actions; if Spren are looking at actions it's likely to confirm that what they saw in that person's soul that attracted them in the first place matches up. Then again, the only example we have of watching a bond progressing from the beginning, three books in, is Kaladin/Syl. Spren are somewhat monolithic within their own Order but wildly vary from Order to Order. That could be just an Honorspren thing; it's been said that Honorspren are more discerning than others. All I can say is that Eshonai has held multiple forms in her life cycle but she's always had the soul of an adventurer. Timbre had her eye on Eshonai for a while and didn't change her mind about bonding even when she went to Stormform. Eshonai always strived to master her forms though, and I'm sure she isn't that big an outlier in this respect. So maybe it's like this. Singers/Listeners will always have more trouble forming a Nahel bond, both because of their closeness to the CR and because their form changes can cause interference. So if a Singer/Listener wants to attract a Nahel Spren they must first be the type of person who is not dominated by the form they take. Their soul must be solid for a bond to take hold.

One thing to note, none of the Shards can deny entry into their magic system if that person meets the conditions. So even if Tanavast were alive he could not prevent someone from a bond if that person and the Spren met the conditions to merge. There are things a Shard can control within it's magic system. They can adjust the set conditions for entry like Sazed did with the snapping. They can straight up grant access like Edgli does with the Returned or what Culti presumably does with the Old Magic. They can even use the magic of their system to destroy someone, much like what Odium threatened to do to the Fused on the battlefield of Thaylen City. This is all to say Tanavast being alive could not have effected the Nahel bond so much as to straight deny Singers its use. I believe that the Singers of old, with their greater alignment with the CR, deliberately chose to deny themselves the use of the Bond. They likely didn't get as much power from the Bond as a human would. Those Singers were fighting humanity at the time and probably saw Odium as a better alternative because they got more juice outta his magic than Honor's. Venli and Timbre are both a part of a new generation not bound to the enmities of the past, it would make sense to me that Venli has become the forerunner for the Singers who prefer to serve Honor rather than Odium. I therefore anticipate some Singer Knights emerging. Agree with @Calderis, form should have nothing to do with it. Timbre was originally Eshonai's Spren to bond and she was getting pushback in both Warform and Stormform. Venli has been in both Stormform and Envoyform and none of these forms seemed to make the progression to the First Oath either easier or more difficult.

So if the newly confirmed Wisdom Shard invested on a planet then how would that Shard manifest in a magic system?

Which makes Santa a fat dragon.

@StanLemon Seven Radiants at Thaylen City were able to hold an army until reinforcements arrived. Adding to what @Kargersaid, none of the Radiant fighters are were maxed out at the time. Now we aren't talking about a limited number of Radiants but several thousand, not counting squires, at least 10% of them maxed out and 3 Bondsmiths instead of 1. The damage that many people can wreck on a landscape is immense. Unlimited Stormlight, no I don't think so. But they have enough people according to the OP to be able to rotate Radiants in and out of the fray or take a fuel point with them or both. Be honest, they know they can do very little without their fuel source; why would they not find strategies to preserve what they have or increase their efficiency? Now if I'd have said that one Radiant could enclose an army of Koloss single handedly then I could see your point. I'm not sure that even a Herald could do that and they had a constant supply of Investiture. But 50 of them? 100? Jasnah isn't maxed out and she repaired a rent in a 50 foot wall with a hand wave. Yes I know, Realms being close and all that, but I think she could have done that without the realms being close, it just would have taken more effort. In this discussion I have tried to do 2 things, to give the Scadrians their due concerning their power set and to attempt to accurately project the strengths, weaknesses and capabilities of a maxed out Radiant and what they can accomplish with the numbers laid out by the OP. The Radiants as we see them in the current storyline and all the armies of Roshar would get destroyed by the Scadrians even without TLR. But you can't look at what we see now as a baseline for what they are capable of or what they were before the Recreance. Just because I think that Roshar wins however does not mean that I'm not acknowledging the Scadrians and their prowess in battle, at least among the metalborn (Mistborn or higher). I never said Roshar wins easily, in fact it's the complete opposite. I feel I have bent over backwards to be fair to the Scadrians in regards to their capabilities. A fight between them would be hard, bloody and terrible. I think Roshar comes out on top, you believe that I have given Radiants too much credit. Fine, agree to disagree. As I was thinking about this question it came to me that the conflict can be defined by a theme. The power of individuals versus the power of a collective. Look at the power base of the two sides. Scadrian magic users are harnessing their own power to individual effect. I have this power and so I can perform this act. I cannot transfer this power to others and I can only affect my environment in a limited way and a limited range. Radiants are more group action and environmental effects. A single Radiant is a collective all by themselves because it's them and their Spren. They can act individually of course, but the greatest magical effects they can muster are environmental effects. I'm a Radiant of such and such order. I can make plants grow faster or build a wall or change an object's personal gravity depending on which Spren I'm bonded with. And the more buddies I have with me the wider my affect can become. I think I might be explaining it poorly, please give me some slack.

Why is it that you think the Koloss are so powerful? Against regular troops sure they'd slaughter but they cannot defend against people who can alter the very landscape. To me it's a trade off. Koloss are so devistating because they are strong and they come in waves of attacks. Weight of numbers plus freakish strength are their calling card. That's not going to work here. If they mass up that gives the Radiants a perfect opportunity to box them in with soulcast walls too high for them to jump or quicksand in a wide perimeter to bog them down. I'm not saying that it's not going to be expensive Stormlight-wise, but it's not going to take an entire force of Radiants to subdue the Koloss force this way. Give me 100 Radiants, maybe 20 or so maxed out, and they with their area effect magic they can do enough damage to subdue a force that won't exen be able to get in range to attack. And once they're boxed in they can be attacked from distance. The most effective way to use then against Radiants would be to separate them into multiple attack groups so that they're impossible to box in. But they lose some of their impact that way and unfortunately they aren't mixing in with regular troops well.

So Santa and Rashek can have a beer and compare notes.

I was going by the parameters set forth by the OP. Radiants at the height of their powers with associated numbers. It may be hard to reach these oaths but it has obviously happened in the past despite the difficulty. According to the OP the Radiants receive Stormlight with the same frequency they had on Roshar. If they are husbanding their fuel reserves, which they know how to do, then they can make what Stormlight that's available to them last as long as it needs to. Of all the metalborn forces Koloss are the ones I'm least worried about. They are too easy to checkmate. I can think of at least 3 ways to incapacitate them without losing a Radiant. Even if they were Mensa candidates they have only strength. They have no defense against at least half of the surges that can be employed against them. To your point about the Elsecaller being overrated, I would caution you to take what we see Radiants doing now and taking that as the extent of their capabilities, as I've said before. I get it. The Era 1 book has been written. We know all about Scadrial and the wreckage they can inflict. We've seen TLR's power in action with the bands. We haven't seen anyone maxed out in Surgebinding in action. It's a matter of projection. I tend to project their power and effectiveness as quite high based on context clues. Opinions vary, and since we have not seen it in text opinions is all we got. But like I said in my previous post, these are details. I told you who I think wins this war, what they would have to do to achieve their victory and the immediate aftermath. What do you think?

Dalinar supercharged Kaladin as a 3 Oath Bondsmith. It tired him out. Dalinar still has 2 more Oaths to max out, plus it was his first time using the ability. Practice plus Level ups means this specific ability should be more effective with experienced, higher Oath Bondsmiths. How much more effective or what toll it will take on said Bondsmiths we don't yet know, but I don't expect the ability to truly tip the scales except in very specialized circumstances. @Calderis Explained about the Shardblade weight thing so I won't revisit that point. As far as level up increases for Radiants, study Kaladin and his Oath progression. The power of his surges increases. His Stormlight usage efficiency increases. He's able to heal faster. Look at the difference between when he fights Szeth the first time and the second time. Really it would make zero sense for them not to experience a stat increase across the board. They're soul merging with a literal force of nature. Anyway, I think we're all swimming in minor details so I wanna ask a question that someone posed a few pages back. I've seen the argument for those who favor Scadrians in the conflict based off of the strength of TLR. So what does a win look like for him? Do you think he has murdered the entire Rosharan forces in an afternoon worth of work and is settling the neutral planet? Does he go home, leaving a ragged planet in his wake? My bet is on the Radiants because I don't feel like Rashek alone can body several thousand knights on his own and I don't believe that any of his other troops would make any significant contribution to the battlefield against this opponent. If Roshar won, that means they found a way to kill TLR. They spread across the surface of the world, exterminating all Inquisitors with misting/Mistborn aid. Rosharan forces only have to eliminate TLR and the inquisitors to win; his rule garners no loyalty from his subjects. It's a simple premise but by no means an easy one.

As to the perpendicularity, that's unique to Dalinar, or at least a Stormfather Bondsmith, as explained in the book. It's the combination of "His remnants, your soul, my will.” it's a result of the bond and Tanavast's shadow having been absorbed by the Stormfather, Connecting him to all of the Shard that was. @StanLemon I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am not saying that all Bondsmiths can open Perpendicularities. I'm saying that all Bondsmiths can supercharge Radiants. That quote from Calderis is a book quote, not a WoB. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. BTW those two actions are not the same thing. With one, Dalinar serves as the fueling station (recharging spheres). With the other, he's temporarily increasing the storage capacity of the Radiant.

One, those 2 Orders are two of the largest 3 traditional Orders, the Stonewards being the other. Two, it's not like people wouldn't be easy to evacuate with those two orders. Lash as many people as possible upward, let another Windrunner catch em in the air, fly away. A regular assembly line. And as far as aluminum goes, just knowing the effect it has against allomancers is a huge advantage. It's not going to be effective if used the way you posit, but it's not useless. Oh BTW, aluminum blocks a Shardblade from the soul severing function. The blocker still has to deal with the momentum of a 6 foot long sword being wielded by someone with at least the strength commonly attributed to pewterarms. And according to the starting conditions laid down by the OP, Radiants will have roughly the same amount of Stormlight available as they would on Roshar. Every surgebinder we've seen in this series has done incredible things, but it would be a fallacy to look at their current abilities as the baseline when one, we haven't seen what a Radiant can do when they're maxed out and two, we know that each step comes with a power boost, an increase in Stormlight usage efficiency and less Stormlight leakage. Sure you can't soulcast a godmetal directly but you can make it inaccessible. That's why I said flummox the Atium supply not destroy it. Easiest way, soulcast the area around it to stone. Of course that cache would likely be the most heavily guarded in the camp so it'd be a long shot at best but the possibility exists. But other metal supplies should be easier to get to, less heavily guarded initially and the route thoroughly scouted by undetectable Spren. And honestly we've never seen a maxed out Lightweaver so you don't know how much area their soulcasting can effect. Advantages of pewter: Strength obviously, increased dexterity, balance and endurance. Advantages of Stormlight: increased strength, speed, autoheal, indestructible shardweapon. Pewter advantages are mitigated by Radiant ones. As far as Plate assumptions, we've seen it in action. For example, when Dalinar in dead Plate catches the decending claw of the Chasmfiend. A pewterarm isn't getting crushed by that multi-ton monster? A Mistborn with duraluminum + pewter is about the only thing keeping that guy from getting squished. No it's not, at this point you are trying to make up advantages for Roshar. I just checked every related tag on the Arcanum I could think of and just reread the chapter. YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS. The reason they were supercharged and recharged was explicitly because of the Perpendicularity. First, you're misinterpreting what I wrote. Here, take a look at this: Questioner Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there. Brandon Sanderson I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO. Questioner Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram-- Brandon Sanderson Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed. Questioner I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now. Brandon Sanderson He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so. Questioner That is a Bondsmith power, okay. Brandon Sanderson That is specifically a Bondsmith power. Questioner Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge-- Brandon Sanderson He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole. Questioner Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power. Brandon Sanderson Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power. Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) As you can see I am not just making up advantages for Roshar, I am doing my best to give my honest assessment of the abilities and shortcomings of both parties. If what I have seen hurts your argument then it's not my fault. Lastly, I pointed out in an earlier post that in order for TLR to use mass production to his advantage that he must build an infrastructure to support that action. I believe you agreed that he should or that he would. Building a city to support his mass production apparatus is not going on the full offensive. It's also not likely to work but that's a separate issue. And as far as him being a conqueror, well he's not had to fight something this formidable since his second century on the job. Even if you're right and the Scadrians would win this conflict, they're going to be hurt really bad. There will be blood by the riverful. He will make tactical errors at first, he rules over a long subjugated population and the voice in his head wants to kill him.

A 2 Oath Kaladin with a little bit of of Stormlight did a dropkick and cracked dead Plate. How exactly is that not as strong as a Thug? And as far as Plate, Dalinar dug a 30 foot trench through solid Rock, wearing out a couple of warhammers while in dead Plate. He did this in an hour or 2. Plate is much stronger than a pewterarm. They're likely equivalent to a Mistborn or Inquisitor flaring pewter with duraluminum. If the Lightweaver corrupts or eliminates metal stores then they cripple the Scadrians ability to make war. If a hit on a mine or metal store deprived half the metalborn troops of their metal or if she flummoxed the Atium cache then her getting away isn't required. I would gladly take that trade-off. And BTW what exactly is the counter for a Spren spying on the camp? A combat team won't detect them, there's nothing for a Tineye to sense, no metal for Steelsight to suss out. And if seekers can sense them, what are they going to do about it? This specifically refers to Dalinar opening the Perpendicularly. All the Bondsmiths could supercharge per WoB. They never have to March on soggy ground if they choose to make the effort. They never have to let Scadrians move on good ground as long as they're in range. For Scadrial to win this conflict they must be full go on the offensive. They must force the action in such a way as to overwhelm the Radiants before they can heal from damages. They cannot give Roshar time to hunker down or to secure their Stormlight collection points. They cannot win a defensive battle with Roshar, fortifications are useless against their weapons, much less their surges. But they have the most powerful chess piece on the board and it would be stupid not to use him to greatest effect. His most powerful tools are doing damage too, particularly with Atium. But where they are realistically killing or temporarily incapacitating dozens at a time, TLR can kill hundreds or close to it. Conversely, Roshar's winning strategy is to draw out the conflict and protect their Stormlight collection points. A vast majority of Scadrians cannot cope with the fortifications a sufficiently charged group of Radiants can put up in minutes or hours at most. And they can go places even TLR cannot follow. Their sappers have more mobility and can do more damage to targets a Scadrian needs to fight effectively. And if a Soulcaster figures out aluminum it can be as much a trump card for Roshar as Atium is for Scadrial. Wittle down their numbers, destroy their metals, play keep-away with TLR until the entire remaining force can focus on him.

Mass production requires infrastructure, meaning factories and the transportation to support that factory, the power to run that factory. That doesn't happen overnight or even in a year's time. I don't remember Era 1 having factories but they definitely won't have them on the neutral planet. Not unless TLR is building a city while he prepares for war. For illusions all one needs is an edge. The Radiants have the best scouts ever. Between Windrunners flying from on high to invisible Spren, details of troop movements can be ascertained rather easily before any infiltration is attempted. Will the Lightweaver be able to sustain the ruse over a period of days or weeks? Of course not. Language acquisition is the least of the issues. But if you only want to do a smash and grab or an assasination then the disguise can hold out long enough for that. I'm about soulcasting metal stores or murdering metalborn in the night, not trying to listen in on their high Council. I'm hitting targets where I don't have have to speak much if at all. Sure the Scadrians can counter even this but it will take time to ramp up their security measures to deal with that specific threat. A tineye or seeker are really only of use for detection in battle. Do we really think they're standing toe to toe with a Radiant even without armor? The guys with autoheal and pewterarm strength and weapons that can be anything? Bad days ahead. Nobody speaks of electrum because it's only real use is as a counter to Atium. As far as environment, both sides have to become accustomed. I don't see any Redwood trees on Scadrial either if we're being honest. They know what soil is, great. Ya think Rosharan people can't get used to it in a year's time? BTW there are Radiants from Shinovar too. We don't know how much better Living Plate holds up over Dead Plate but we can make not unreasonable speculations based on the performance of live Blades vs Dead Blades. One thing we do know is that live plate can be summoned or dismissed at thought. The midnight essence vision shows a Radiant dismissing his helmet. If the armor can react to thought like the blades do then it amounts to another weapon that can be wielded. Add that to a Spren blade that could just as easily can be an unbreakable shardshield and back again and invunerability is that much closer. The question Of the day is, can you pool the powers of the Radiancy? Awesome feats have been performed by Surgebinding but as those that argue for Scadrial point out, an average Radiant isn't turning acres of ground to mud by themselves, or at least it seems not, not unless there's a perpendicularly nearby. OTOH the Shattered Plains were shattered by Surgebinding. Yes the note only mentioned that great magics were released there, yet the magical systems of Roshar are all Surgebinding other than the Old Magic. Voidbinding is essentially Surgebinding with Odium as focus instead of H/C. Whatever Dawnshards are, it's clear to me that they are tools that utilize Surgebinding as well. I would say probably they can. It's not going to be standardized like WOT but I don't think it would be farfetched to say that a small group of Radiants can effect the world from miles out. The evidence of this? The Everstorm. It's a worldwide phenomenon summoned not by one person but by a group. There's nothing mechanically preventing Radiants to pull off things similar in scope.