Bigmikey357

I agree with you about her strengths but I have a slight disagreement regarding her weaknesses. Any scholar or scientist is going to look dumb if the direction of their research is based upon a flawed foundation. Her people probably were not naturally scholarly, their natural defenses made survival easier, thus making scholarly pursuits less vital. She doesn't start off with much scientific rigor so her base knowledge was already shaky. Then she spent 7k years reinforcing and building off flawed assumptions. The fact that she ends up recognizing that her reasoning was insufficient to accomplish her goals and that she needed a human to pour fresh blood into her research is IMO an excellent indicator of her brilliance. Her people management skills are beyond par.

I think that when light and antilight combine it what it destroys isn't the Investiture itself, but it's connection to any particular Shard. For a being like the Fused abruptly losing that connection to Odium is like a spiritual entity losing their tether to the other 2 Realms.

The approach to killing a Radiant proposed by @StanLemon is actually imo a feasible way to kill a Radiant which takes advantage of a battlefield that favors their skills while limiting the innate abilities a Radiant possesses. But it begs the question, why in these scenarios presented is there never an attempt to buff the Radiant? Why are we not proposing having a Radiant with dampening Fabrials or holding a soulcaster? My guess is that their natural abilities are already overkill in most fights, giving them tools would be patently unfair. But as one commentor pointed out, fights are rarely fair when the prospect of mortality is on the line. The fact that even those who favor Mistborn over Radiant in a battle never consider the tools a Radiant might bring to bear outside of their innate abilities tells me that even they consider a Mistborn win to be a longshot. I mean Mistborn aren't the only ones who can be sneaky, duplicitous, deceitful. Shallan might have a better chance against Vin than even Kaladin if she plays it right, maybe throw her off her game by impersonating Reed or Kelsier, slippingin the Patternknife at just the right moment. Or Jasnah could outsmart her, maneuvering her into a position where her powers become worthless. Get into range. Soulcast the air around her into a stone box. Leave. I mean even when the Mistborn has every advantage their win isn't assured; make it even and the Radiant nearly always wins. Give them an advantage outside of their own abilities and it's curtains. An advantage like choosing the terrain in which they fight.

Navani never pursues this line of research without Rabonial. She's the driving force behind all Navani's success. She gives Navani critical information that leads toward the antilight discoveries. And she ensures that this information is distributed to both sides of the conflict. Navani does most of the work, designs and conducts the experiments, the Voice of Lights certainly has a share in the kill count. But without the Lady of Pain/Wishes there is no discovery.

I've read many of these arguments that favor Mistborn over Radiant and they all look the same as before Kaladin got his upgrade. Many of the scenarios presented that have the Mistborn winning requires the Radiant to be stupid or unwilling to use their entire power set or just lacking offensive capabilities in general. They require the Mistborn to have access to all 16 metals plus unlimited Atium plus a sniper rifle full of aluminum bullets and a tank for support. I don't find many of the arguments to be realistic. From my interpretation of the text there are ways for a Mistborn to win without going to extremes, they're just less abundant than the ways a Radiant has. In a fight between Mistborn and Radiants the metalborn have one distinct advantage, Atium. They aren't stronger than a Radiant in plate, they aren't faster. They're less maneuverable than a Windrunner/ Skybreaker, pewter makes them somewhat durable but they cannot heal from mortal wounds. Their natural range attacks are ineffective against live plate, only marginally effective vs dead plate. Their abilities are most suited to taking an opponent unaware, not standing against opponents that can take punishment. Atium is the only tool in their arsenal that can be used to instantly kill a Radiant, and one must be really close to use it effectively. On the other side of the ledger are Radiants, presumably of the 4th Ideal. Not all Radiants are combat oriented but at their base these guys and gals have Shardblade that cannot be manipulated allomantically and can morph into any weapon at the speed of thought. They have armor that makes them stronger and faster than any pewter burner. If someone breaks through that plate they can heal from nearly any wound provided they have fuel to do so. Without even counting their individual skills or surges, the most inept of them can make short work of nearly all other magic users in the Cosmere. And unlike guns or allomantic grenades or explosives, their blade and armor cannot be dropped and used by their opponents. Add in surges with area effects and it becomes no contest. How is Atium going to account for somebody like Jasnah, who just recently torched a battlefield and walked through it unscathed? I've long stated even before the upgrade that Radiant beats Mistborn more often than not. With what little we've seen from the capacity of Living Plate and the Mistborn chances are near zero. You wanna kill a Radiant in a 1 v 1 battle? Use a Fullborn. If you must use a Mistborn, the most effective way is through deception. If you cannot do that then you stay out of range and spend a long time trying to make it through defenses and dodging attacks.

Willshapers and Stonewards could raise an impenetrable barricade of stone, making the Mistborn have to come close to do damage. Hell, so can Lightweavers and Elsecallers by different methods. An open environment definitely does not favor the Mistborn as they have no anchors to push/ pull on, thus limiting their maneuverability. I consider instant lethality because fights between combatants of the skills we are considering rarely last long. Wearing down a Radiant is by no means easy and because of the abilities Radiance provides, tradeoffs start to introduce themselves. Mistborn has better endurance because they have a more fuel efficient Investiture source in most metals, but they have no defense and cannot heal. The longer a fight goes the better chance of making mistakes. A Radiant can recover from most mistakes while with a Mistborn any mistake leaves them dead. As for Range, yeah its important. But Radiance can negate ranged attacks by numerous means. If a Mistborn wants to play keep away then they can't do significant lasting damage. They gotta get in close to kill, and being close to a Radiant is a bad place to be.

What I believe you're getting into is innate abilities vs. tool uses. In the innate abilities department the Mistborn, while powerful, is at a distinct disadvantage. I can think of several ways the attacks you propose can be thwarted depending on Radiant Order doing the fighting. For just one example, a Windrunner could easily get out of the range of those flying projectiles. About the only innate ability a Mistborn holds over a Radiant is the ability to burn Atium. A huge advantage, yes, but a less effective one as a Radiant progresses in Oaths. The mistborn can augment their advantages through tool uses, guns, allomantic grenades and the like. And Scadrial tech is more advanced than Rosharan tech. But the thing about tools are that they can be used by either side. If a Radiant has an allomantic grenade they could throw their surges. Imagine a Windrunner charging a gravity grenade, flying up a couple hundred feet, then dropping a 5x lashing down on the battlefield.

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality. Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible, even moreso with Atium. The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible. But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor, then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks. Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal. Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch, not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship, carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness. I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

I agree it would take a couple seconds. But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact, during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done? Possibly. Atium would help a great deal. A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant. Guns are a significant game changer, it betters a Mistborn's chances while also denying the Radiant a useful tool. But the guns of Scadrial are not quite advanced enough to tip the scales when we consider a Radiant's offensive capabilities. Windrunners/Skybreakers can move out of range or change that Mistborn's gravity at a touch. Stonewards can raise a bulwark or turn the ground into quicksand. Grasp hands with an Elsecaller/ Lightweaver and get turned into a crystal statue, ect. For guns to tip the scales they have to be much more advanced. Automatic weapons with speedy reload times, firing high velocity rounds. That allows the Mistborn to stay out of most Radiants kill range while still causing enough damage to make that Radiant burn through Stormlight. Even still, the Radiant has the defenses to where they can make numerous mistakes and still live victorious. The Mistborn has no margin of error. But those Mistborn guns are low range and inaccurate beyond a few feet. Don't take Wax's accuracy as the standard, he's supernaturally gifted with his pistol. Still 9 times out of 10 wins for the Radiant sounds reasonable. I'd possibly go as low as 8 of 10 or 7 of 10 with Atium use but for me it's no more than that. Not against that armor. Crazy couple things though. 1, a Mistborn could quite easily beat a level 1 or 2 Radiant given Atium. 3rd gets tricky, that 4th is rather out of their league IMO. 2, guns + Atium isn't as great a combo as it looks at first glance. Bullets won't have an Atium shadow once fired, their position is fixed once they leave the chamber. The farther the target is away, the better chance of dodging the shot.

If you're a Mistborn hoping to beat a Radiant your only option is to catch them unaware. That becomes increasingly difficult for a 4th Oath Radiant with perma-Plate/Reactive Armor. Even with Atium, even with guns, breaking through a Radiant's many defenses to deliver a one-shot kill is going to be nearly impossible. They just do not have the tools. Chromium Leeching isn't instant, and only really drains kinetic Investiture. At best this scenario proposed would take 2 or 3 seconds, during which time you're draining Plate. The Radiant is untouched, meaning that while you're standing there trying to drain the Radiant you're catching a Shardblade to the face or a crippling punch. So that's a strategy one would use after a prolonged fight, as your ace in the hole. Atium is only an I Win button if you can deliver an instant kill, and there are very few things that can instant kill a Radiant, especially one topped off with Stormlight. Use the right tools for the job. You wanna kill a high level Radiant? You're going to need a Fullborn.

Dalinar's observations of Ishar's movements during the fight look awful similar to how an Atium burner is described. That could be the multiple millennium fighting experience (Taln was considered the best and he doesn’t have that type of magical advantage). But it could also be Ishar reading Connection and taking advantage of it in combat. But even if a Bondsmith cannot use Connection as an Atium defense they can still steal Connection from an intended target or ground out Investiture. Either of those abilities would kill about 99% of any opponent in the Cosmere you could name.

I won't give the obligatory F Moash, that's implied. But his behavior in RoW when it comes to Kaladin is a bit strange. I believe he could have actually killed Kaladin either in Hearthstone or especially in the Tower. But he instead urges our favorite bridgeman to commit suicide. He even defies his master Rayse when he urges Moash to kill him. So is it a twisted form of hero worship? Does he really believe that Kaladin cannot be killed unless he suisides? Or is Moash accurately accessing Kaladin's abilities? Maybe Moash doesn't believe he has the skill necessary to defeat him. Or is it just defiance? He refuses to raise his hand toward his former commander because he still considers Kaladin a friend, albeit one with a severe difference of opinion? Or is it a combination of all these?

I don't know man. Complete Connection manipulation is frightening as all get out. And Rashek had some issues after his 1000 years of being needled by Ruin. What if Dalinar could just straight up snatch his Connection to the Shards? Or if not so drastic, maybe connect him with his memories of Alendi and drive him even more crazy? Don't get me wrong, Rashek murders any other Radiant with relative ease regardless of order or oath level. But Bondsmith powers are ridiculous on an entirely different order of magnitude than their Radiant counterparts. Rashek is still tough but a Bondsmith has a much more realistic chance to actually come out victorious. My opinion obviously.

If Ishar's trick of manipulation of Connection working similar to a regular Atium burn is the norm for a Bondsmith then there is at least 1 order of KR that, fully powered up, is going to have a major advantage over nearly anything the rest of the Cosmere could throw at them. Even a Fullborn may have trouble if said Bondsmith knows when a speed run is coming and can glue up the ground before the guy can reach them. Hyper Connection negates Atium shadows, grounds out Investiture, can actually steal others Shardic connections. If Dalinar at Oath 5 is even half as terrifying as Ishar was onscreen I'd give him nearly even odds vs. Rashek.

Of all the types of Investiture we've seen, Stormlight looks to be the most versatile in terms that could potentially fuel other magic systems. If some entity, like the Ghostbloods on purpose or Navani by accident, could find a way to unlock it from Roshar I could see it being damn near as ubiquitous as currency around the Cosmere. Of course Roshar starts to look a lot like Arrakis (Dune) in that scenario. Harmony medallions also look like a good candidate, although for another reason entirely. Using one of those plugs you into the local Investiture source, kinda like a universal power adapter.

It looks like Jasnah is tackling the class struggles admirably IMO. I think Moash's thing is an illustration of just what it means to completely give yourself over to Odium, what it looks like. For Moash the class struggle thing was a sham anyway, a thin veneer for his desire for revenge. Was he meant to be nuanced? I think so. And if he's somehow separated from Odium he'll be nuanced again, just with a different set of issues. Brandon rarely lets cartoon cut out villains like what Vyre has become last this long. They either die (see Lezian) or they get some sort of reasoning behind their world view (Sadeas). The fact that Moash still lives tells me he's still got some narrative purposes, he's still got stuff to do.

I can see that for other Orders, other spren. But the Highspren didn't lose anyone. And it isn't like they didn't know, the Gem Archive has a Skybreaker expressing concerns about the plan. And even if Highspren are something like isolationist they still trade with other spren societies. Which brings me back to the first point, what information are they hiding? How powerful of a secret must it be for even the people who disagree with the plan not to mention it to anybody?

We got another piece of the puzzle irt the Recreance, basically that the spren were active participants although they weren't fully aware of the consequences. That's great and all, it shows that humans were not complete monsters, but it does bring about some worrisome questions. My first one is why wasn't this information already known? I can sort of understand for Honorspren and maybe Ashspren and Inkspren; from the reactions of those we've met, their losses had to be among the heaviest. I can also understand it for some of the spren alive at the time. Sib was in withdrawal, Syl was in a coma, SF and maybe NW were unbonded and thus cognitively limited. Yet there must be some of them that knew this was an orchestrated act, an agreement between man and Spren. The Highspren in particular didn't lose a single soul to the Recreance. And judging from the actions of Cultivationspren and Cryptics and the favorable attitudes of Peakspren I am sure that there are survivors in the know among them as well. So how come it took the unlikely event that was Maya's partial revival for this information to become common knowledge? We can assume that spren aren't dumb, at least in their home realm. If that's the solution then that's both unsatisfying and unrealistic. So that leaves a couple possibilities, both of which are hinted at in RoW. Either those that lived through the Recreance are hiding something, or they were fundamentally damaged by the caging of Bo-Ado-Mishram. In the case of the former, what could be so bad that they were willing to stay quiet and let humanity take all the blame? And what changed so that they were willing to bond again yet still unwilling to share the secret? The latter is also plausible and all live spren are pretty much walking wounded whether they are deadeyes or not. So what exactly was BAM's actual role in Rosharan ecology and why was she able to provide at least partial functionality despite being Unmade? We got a lot of information but I feel we still lack the keystone. We have awhile to discuss it before we get our answers, probably in book 5.

Sorry, haven't read all the posts yet but still had to add my 2 cents. I remember when I first read the end of part 2, driving to work (audiobook) and I had to pull over and scream F$#k You Lirin! at the top of my lungs, laughing in incredulity while tears stung my eyes. Brandon wrote a great character, full of nuance and realism. And I appreciate it greatly. Still, I despise Lirin as I'm supposed to. Mission accomplished. Would I like him more if he wasn't being overwhelmingly critical of one of my favorite characters? If we didn't know the struggles Kaladin went through to not only survive but thrive? Maybe. Yet as a father I cannot imagine saying something so hurtful to my son. And as a child to a father who was 100% supportive of my right to make decisions even when he didn't always agree with them, I can imagine how much words like that from him would have destroyed me. And that makes me hate him even more. Luckily unlike Moash he does have a chance to do better in my eyes, has already kinda started. But he's going to have to show me more than what I saw in part 5 for me to be on board again.

. I think Moash's transition in RoW was intentionally done. Odium has been sucking the nuance outta Moash for over a year, making him more and more one-note, corrupting what was once a human soul. As I think about it, I can imagine that a similar s was used to create the first Fused.

Of all the characters in danger for book 5, Adolin is the one I'm least worried about. As far as I'm concerned he's going to live forever; his narrative purpose is served much more by living than dying. The man is a walking talking emotional support animal and I love him for it.

I think ultimately Rabonial will have the highest kill count and was more effective at villainy than Moash. At the end of the day he only kills 2 immortal beings. Rabonial and her research has the potential to kill thousands.

So. Becoming a Shard of Adonalasium obviously has many benefits. Instant immortality, a rapidly expanding mind, an infinite well of power to draw on. And an automatic pass into the most exclusive club in the Cosmere. Yet for all its benefits, becoming 1/16th of God carries with it significant drawbacks, as Sazed would point out. The main drawback is the power itself, forever pushing you to act in ways that promote its agenda. To go against the power is to know pain, something that should have been left behind upon ascension along with your physical body. And it's that aspect that makes a Vessel a Cognitive Shadow. They are the greatest of them but face the same limitations as the Heralds, Fused, Kelsier, Vasher, whoever. Not only is being a Vessel not all it's cracked up to be, it's also a role that former mortals are particularly unsuited for. The problem is 2 fold. The first one is as stated above, the power is always pushing, always trying to shape its Vessel. The second however is unique to mortals and it is simple. Mortals are just not built for immortality. The mind breaks out of sheer inertia. And though the power does help with the issue by expanding the mind of the Vessel, that mind was still once a mortal one. The limits of mortality don't go away, they're merely postponed. Ask the Fused how difficult just 7000 years is on a mortal mind. If you can find a sane one. It thus occurred to me that the best candidate for a Vessel, one who could deal with the endless tug of war between shard and vessel best would be someone who was naturally immortal at the time of ascension. Their will would not die out of fatigue alone because they possess minds built for immortality. And the only immortal race of beings that I know of at the time of the Shattering were Dragons. There have been 2 of those immortals confirmed in the Cosmere, Frost and the current Vessel of Cultivation, Kovari. So why is this important? Because there's a new Odium in town, one that's crafty, extremely dangerous, and holding a power that even the other Shards are wary of. And new Vessels should have major advantages over original Vessels who have long ago succumbed to Shardic Intent in terms of freedom to act and of movement. Kovari seems to have made a major misstep in putting Taravangian in position to take up that particular Shard. I admit I thought so too at first but now I'm not so sure. She's a rather crafty lizard lady herself and probably won't have completely lost her will to Cultivation's Intent due to her previous immortality. There will be some terrifying days ahead for Roshar but I have faith that Tod will not have things all his own way, that Kovari has contingencies, and that everything will mostly work out in the end. What do you guys and gals think?

I like that, I didn't get that possible connection. Like the god that is all about forging bonds and connections has a GodMetal that severs them. Maybe it's because the god essence isn't natural in metal form and so corrupts it's intent. It implies that you get different effects depending on which state you interact with Investiture. That kinda makes sense considering how different normal matter works depending on what state it's in. Although I would expect different states of a particular flavor of Investiture to do similar things regardless of phase state apparently Investiture is different. We need to see all the GodMetals used correctly; we'll probably have to wait awhile.

Its Moelach of the Death Rattle variety. The Shin are currently trying to worship him.