Bigmikey357

I'm sorry guys, I just don't see TLR lifting a Thunderclast and tossing it several miles. No matter how much pewter they can bring to bear there is an upper limit. If a Radiant could do so there'd be no need for Shardblades. As far as pushing on trace metals in the rock, how much of that is on Roshar? It was my understanding that Roshar is quite metal poor, meaning a Thunderclasts 'body consists of hardened clay more than metal laced stone. Furthermore, I'm not sure what good blowing its head off would do. My guess is you either have to banish the spren that animate the rock monster or cut it into manageable pieces. So for TLR to beat a Thunderclast he would likely have to find a place on it where he couldn't be shaken off and leech for all he's worth. Barring that, the right tool for the job is a Shardblade. Or Nightblood. The most worrisome attribute TLR possesses is speed, that's going to be the hardest thing to counter for a Herald. I think Ishar could counter Atium and I think Battar and Kalak could smoke him from the CR. Much like a Mistborn vs a Radiant, the best way for the Scadrian to win is to end the fight before the Rosharan knows that there will be a fight.

As far as Lirin goes, thank everything holy for Hessina. Maybe it should have been obvious but if it wasn't for her I probably never would have realized that Lirin has the exact same hangup regarding Tien that Kaladin has. He blames himself for his son's death. He even has more justification for it than Kaladin. He could have caved on the spheres. He could have moved away. He could have let the knife slip on that operating table. Note that I do not blame him for any of these decisions. In many ways Kaladin would not have become the guy we all love had his father wavered in his moral character when things got tough. But I can understand that he feels that he failed his family, that he failed his then-youngest son. Therefore the actions he takes after Tien's death, the stances he adopts, are totally reactionary to past trauma. It makes him a dark mirror to Kaladin in some respects. That being said, I can admit Lirin is well written. I'm aware that Brandon pulled all the heartstrings, that I'm supposed to hate him in this book. I can even see the realism, for we often hurt those closest to us, if for no other reason than we know where the the armor is thinnest. And I can appreciate that with an assist from Hessina he was able to give his kid a break and eventuallycome tosome common ground. I can know all of these things, understand all these things, yet still want to punch Lirin repeatedly in the face until my hand bleeds. And part of that is reflexively trying to defend Kaladin. I can acknowledge that. But there's things you just don't say to someone with PTSD. There's things that you just don't say to heroes. And really Lirin, read the flipping room for crying out loud. You're determined to be the only human on Roshar that isn't proud of Kaladin or respects his accomplishments. Hell, Moash is probably the worst person ever. Even he loves Kaladin, albeit in a stupidly twisted way. Do better Lirin, BE better. I actually used to like you.

I certainly thought it was a shout out to Name of the Wind. Or it could be Silence's tavern if we're looking for Cosmere connections.

I posted on your last one. I think my interpretation is still valid, and we mostly agreed on what we spoke about before. Personally I think your second ideal is still a bit too complicated. Or rather, maybe you're describing the effects of swearing that oath. My interpretation (Order Mission Statement) is what the 2nd Ideal is, improving oneself according to a guideline (to paraphrase what I think you meant)is what swearing the 2nd oath does. As far as the 4th Ideal, Kaladin has passed his Crucible, I think Teft passed his too (and had stupid Moash hadn't killed Pheandora he'd have spoken his 4th), Szeth is embarking on his and Dalinar is close, as indicated by him handing his book to Jasnah to add undertext. I don't know what Lift's 4th will be but I can imagine her admission of her words to Cultivation to be a significant step towards it. Maybe I will listen to myself? I am stumped on that 5th Oath. If its embodiment then I really don't know what else Kaladin needs to exhibit to show that he's the ultimate in Protection. I don't know how many secrets Shallan has left. Once Szeth cleanses Shinovar I don't know what else he has to prove. I couldn't tell you how Dalinar could swear the 5th without immediately Ascending to Honor.

I've always considered our favorite Herdazian General to be a budding Dustbringer instead. He almost supernaturally slips out of cuffs, rooms, ect. His personality, forever poking at Dalinar, laughing at chaos, and having moments that show his gooey sentimental center look like both Malata and the Dustbringer entries in the Gem Archive by turns. Lastly he takes responsibility for his country even though it's occupied, and the Dustbringer oaths are themed towards responsibility. I will say however that Willshaper seems just as valid considering the arguments brought up by OP. All we know now is he doesn't have a spren yet.

I think Helaran was a Ghostblood. It really doesn't make sense for him to be a Skybreaker. They had no beef with the SoH, Amaram was nothing like close to attracting a spren, and they aren't sending a squire unattended anywhere, especially not with dead shards. But if he were a Ghostblood, well I'm sure they could obtain blade and plate pretty easily, Amaram's awareness of the deeper game makes him a prime target for a hunt, plus the way he went about slaughtering on the battlefield on his way to Amaram looks like something a GB candidate would consider to be a valid tactic.

I don't believe we're overestimating the Heralds. They would have to be super impressive for them to overawe Radiants who share their powers. They have to be OP for the story to work. Unless we're giving TLR a Shardblade I don't see him taking out a 59 ton rock monster. Well, maybe if he could Leech the thing. Dude is OP, but it's mostly anti-personnel, not anti-environment. I'm not sure there'll be a problem when it comes to the Big Ole ShardWar we'll get later. Roshar has the God of Hatred running all throughout their DNA. If I'm an unaligned planet in the Cosmere I'd be terrified to ally with Roshar. Scadrial's God is Harmony. Sounds much nicer. Roshar will have no shortage of enemies I reckon. Plus, with medallion technology the Scadrians have more power to offer to allies and less restrictions on said power. I mean you could have someone give you a necklace and instantly be magical or you could travel to some cold, stone covered hurricane factory, hang out for who knows how long in hopes of attracting a non-human companion that judges all your life choices, and get periodically peer reviewed to progress.

TLR vs. Herald. 1000 years of experience with their power, contending with nobody close to his power level vs. 5000 or so years fighting enemies at least on par with them. Advantage: Herald Ruin playing mind games for a millennium vs. Odium tormented off and on for several millennium. Advantage: TLR Metalmind storage + Compounding vs. Direct Investiture feed. Advantage: initially even, Herald the longer the bout (metalminds can run dry). Both have the ability to destroy armies. However, any Herald could have gone to Scadrial and achieved what TLR did. By contrast, TLR and the entire human race dies on Roshar way before Arihatiem (?sp). Seeing a couple Heralds casually snatching fast moving projectiles out of the air makes me think that they just may be able to react better to steelrunning than I previously gave them credit for. Seeing Ishar casually school Radiants to the point of there being a question of weather hyperconnection would function like Atium burns scares me nearly as much as TLR. Kelek and Battar's ability to pop into the CR at will (and with infinite Investiture, probably come closest to Nightcrawler style Teleportation than is likely possible for a Radiant) should be worrisome for any opponent, even TLR. Otoh, TLR has some surprises in store as well. While his greatest advantages, Steelrunning and Atium, are also the attributes that run out the fastest, he can pour on the Emotional Allomancy for days. He can defend against most attacks, can take a punch from a Shardplate without blinking and can punch back nearly as hard if not harder for certain punches (double pewter + duraluminum). Final Tally: I'd still give it to TLR but it is much closer than I initially thought due to some of the onscreen performances of past-their-prime Heralds and their remarkable skills. Imagine how badass they used to be. One thing is for certain imo. TLR could beat one or maybe two at once. But he couldn't beat them all. And if he were to try and beat them 1 after the other he wouldn't get through half of them before one ended him.

Like in the previous Mistborn vs. Radiant debate it's rather difficult to predict accurately because we've seen the highest potential in metalborn humanity in action (Fullborn, Wax w/Bands) but have yet to see a Full Radiant for more than a couple seconds. That being said, if you're allowing a Fullborn with medalians and vindication and hazekiller rounds then you must allow a Bondsmith unchained with limitless connection powers, suppressor fabrials and Raysium anti-investiture knives. If it comes down to tool usages then it's anyone's game. But let's take away all the tools and see who can win based on sheer ability. I am attempting to make the match up as even as possible initially. Bondsmiths don't get a blade so they are allowed Ishar's Honorblade as a weapon. The Fullborn gets a knife or sword or spear, whatever. Four bags of spheres vs. 4 metal vials. In a scenario like that Fullborn wins nearly every time. One simple reason. Speed. Every ability the Fullborn brings to the table can be countered by a Radiant except 1, steel speed.

@BenduLuke Yes a steelrunner or steel compounder would have an excellent chance killing a Radiant. But that's beyond the scope of the argument. Not even the most powerful Mistborn can move with that type of speed, and one would likely need that to overcome the reaction time of a Radiant's always on armor.

Sibling spiritual connection, getting closer to Radiance.

I agree with you about her strengths but I have a slight disagreement regarding her weaknesses. Any scholar or scientist is going to look dumb if the direction of their research is based upon a flawed foundation. Her people probably were not naturally scholarly, their natural defenses made survival easier, thus making scholarly pursuits less vital. She doesn't start off with much scientific rigor so her base knowledge was already shaky. Then she spent 7k years reinforcing and building off flawed assumptions. The fact that she ends up recognizing that her reasoning was insufficient to accomplish her goals and that she needed a human to pour fresh blood into her research is IMO an excellent indicator of her brilliance. Her people management skills are beyond par.

I think that when light and antilight combine it what it destroys isn't the Investiture itself, but it's connection to any particular Shard. For a being like the Fused abruptly losing that connection to Odium is like a spiritual entity losing their tether to the other 2 Realms.

The approach to killing a Radiant proposed by @StanLemon is actually imo a feasible way to kill a Radiant which takes advantage of a battlefield that favors their skills while limiting the innate abilities a Radiant possesses. But it begs the question, why in these scenarios presented is there never an attempt to buff the Radiant? Why are we not proposing having a Radiant with dampening Fabrials or holding a soulcaster? My guess is that their natural abilities are already overkill in most fights, giving them tools would be patently unfair. But as one commentor pointed out, fights are rarely fair when the prospect of mortality is on the line. The fact that even those who favor Mistborn over Radiant in a battle never consider the tools a Radiant might bring to bear outside of their innate abilities tells me that even they consider a Mistborn win to be a longshot. I mean Mistborn aren't the only ones who can be sneaky, duplicitous, deceitful. Shallan might have a better chance against Vin than even Kaladin if she plays it right, maybe throw her off her game by impersonating Reed or Kelsier, slippingin the Patternknife at just the right moment. Or Jasnah could outsmart her, maneuvering her into a position where her powers become worthless. Get into range. Soulcast the air around her into a stone box. Leave. I mean even when the Mistborn has every advantage their win isn't assured; make it even and the Radiant nearly always wins. Give them an advantage outside of their own abilities and it's curtains. An advantage like choosing the terrain in which they fight.

Navani never pursues this line of research without Rabonial. She's the driving force behind all Navani's success. She gives Navani critical information that leads toward the antilight discoveries. And she ensures that this information is distributed to both sides of the conflict. Navani does most of the work, designs and conducts the experiments, the Voice of Lights certainly has a share in the kill count. But without the Lady of Pain/Wishes there is no discovery.

I've read many of these arguments that favor Mistborn over Radiant and they all look the same as before Kaladin got his upgrade. Many of the scenarios presented that have the Mistborn winning requires the Radiant to be stupid or unwilling to use their entire power set or just lacking offensive capabilities in general. They require the Mistborn to have access to all 16 metals plus unlimited Atium plus a sniper rifle full of aluminum bullets and a tank for support. I don't find many of the arguments to be realistic. From my interpretation of the text there are ways for a Mistborn to win without going to extremes, they're just less abundant than the ways a Radiant has. In a fight between Mistborn and Radiants the metalborn have one distinct advantage, Atium. They aren't stronger than a Radiant in plate, they aren't faster. They're less maneuverable than a Windrunner/ Skybreaker, pewter makes them somewhat durable but they cannot heal from mortal wounds. Their natural range attacks are ineffective against live plate, only marginally effective vs dead plate. Their abilities are most suited to taking an opponent unaware, not standing against opponents that can take punishment. Atium is the only tool in their arsenal that can be used to instantly kill a Radiant, and one must be really close to use it effectively. On the other side of the ledger are Radiants, presumably of the 4th Ideal. Not all Radiants are combat oriented but at their base these guys and gals have Shardblade that cannot be manipulated allomantically and can morph into any weapon at the speed of thought. They have armor that makes them stronger and faster than any pewter burner. If someone breaks through that plate they can heal from nearly any wound provided they have fuel to do so. Without even counting their individual skills or surges, the most inept of them can make short work of nearly all other magic users in the Cosmere. And unlike guns or allomantic grenades or explosives, their blade and armor cannot be dropped and used by their opponents. Add in surges with area effects and it becomes no contest. How is Atium going to account for somebody like Jasnah, who just recently torched a battlefield and walked through it unscathed? I've long stated even before the upgrade that Radiant beats Mistborn more often than not. With what little we've seen from the capacity of Living Plate and the Mistborn chances are near zero. You wanna kill a Radiant in a 1 v 1 battle? Use a Fullborn. If you must use a Mistborn, the most effective way is through deception. If you cannot do that then you stay out of range and spend a long time trying to make it through defenses and dodging attacks.

Willshapers and Stonewards could raise an impenetrable barricade of stone, making the Mistborn have to come close to do damage. Hell, so can Lightweavers and Elsecallers by different methods. An open environment definitely does not favor the Mistborn as they have no anchors to push/ pull on, thus limiting their maneuverability. I consider instant lethality because fights between combatants of the skills we are considering rarely last long. Wearing down a Radiant is by no means easy and because of the abilities Radiance provides, tradeoffs start to introduce themselves. Mistborn has better endurance because they have a more fuel efficient Investiture source in most metals, but they have no defense and cannot heal. The longer a fight goes the better chance of making mistakes. A Radiant can recover from most mistakes while with a Mistborn any mistake leaves them dead. As for Range, yeah its important. But Radiance can negate ranged attacks by numerous means. If a Mistborn wants to play keep away then they can't do significant lasting damage. They gotta get in close to kill, and being close to a Radiant is a bad place to be.

What I believe you're getting into is innate abilities vs. tool uses. In the innate abilities department the Mistborn, while powerful, is at a distinct disadvantage. I can think of several ways the attacks you propose can be thwarted depending on Radiant Order doing the fighting. For just one example, a Windrunner could easily get out of the range of those flying projectiles. About the only innate ability a Mistborn holds over a Radiant is the ability to burn Atium. A huge advantage, yes, but a less effective one as a Radiant progresses in Oaths. The mistborn can augment their advantages through tool uses, guns, allomantic grenades and the like. And Scadrial tech is more advanced than Rosharan tech. But the thing about tools are that they can be used by either side. If a Radiant has an allomantic grenade they could throw their surges. Imagine a Windrunner charging a gravity grenade, flying up a couple hundred feet, then dropping a 5x lashing down on the battlefield.

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality. Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible, even moreso with Atium. The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible. But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor, then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks. Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal. Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch, not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship, carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness. I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

I agree it would take a couple seconds. But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact, during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done? Possibly. Atium would help a great deal. A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant. Guns are a significant game changer, it betters a Mistborn's chances while also denying the Radiant a useful tool. But the guns of Scadrial are not quite advanced enough to tip the scales when we consider a Radiant's offensive capabilities. Windrunners/Skybreakers can move out of range or change that Mistborn's gravity at a touch. Stonewards can raise a bulwark or turn the ground into quicksand. Grasp hands with an Elsecaller/ Lightweaver and get turned into a crystal statue, ect. For guns to tip the scales they have to be much more advanced. Automatic weapons with speedy reload times, firing high velocity rounds. That allows the Mistborn to stay out of most Radiants kill range while still causing enough damage to make that Radiant burn through Stormlight. Even still, the Radiant has the defenses to where they can make numerous mistakes and still live victorious. The Mistborn has no margin of error. But those Mistborn guns are low range and inaccurate beyond a few feet. Don't take Wax's accuracy as the standard, he's supernaturally gifted with his pistol. Still 9 times out of 10 wins for the Radiant sounds reasonable. I'd possibly go as low as 8 of 10 or 7 of 10 with Atium use but for me it's no more than that. Not against that armor. Crazy couple things though. 1, a Mistborn could quite easily beat a level 1 or 2 Radiant given Atium. 3rd gets tricky, that 4th is rather out of their league IMO. 2, guns + Atium isn't as great a combo as it looks at first glance. Bullets won't have an Atium shadow once fired, their position is fixed once they leave the chamber. The farther the target is away, the better chance of dodging the shot.

If you're a Mistborn hoping to beat a Radiant your only option is to catch them unaware. That becomes increasingly difficult for a 4th Oath Radiant with perma-Plate/Reactive Armor. Even with Atium, even with guns, breaking through a Radiant's many defenses to deliver a one-shot kill is going to be nearly impossible. They just do not have the tools. Chromium Leeching isn't instant, and only really drains kinetic Investiture. At best this scenario proposed would take 2 or 3 seconds, during which time you're draining Plate. The Radiant is untouched, meaning that while you're standing there trying to drain the Radiant you're catching a Shardblade to the face or a crippling punch. So that's a strategy one would use after a prolonged fight, as your ace in the hole. Atium is only an I Win button if you can deliver an instant kill, and there are very few things that can instant kill a Radiant, especially one topped off with Stormlight. Use the right tools for the job. You wanna kill a high level Radiant? You're going to need a Fullborn.

Dalinar's observations of Ishar's movements during the fight look awful similar to how an Atium burner is described. That could be the multiple millennium fighting experience (Taln was considered the best and he doesn’t have that type of magical advantage). But it could also be Ishar reading Connection and taking advantage of it in combat. But even if a Bondsmith cannot use Connection as an Atium defense they can still steal Connection from an intended target or ground out Investiture. Either of those abilities would kill about 99% of any opponent in the Cosmere you could name.

I won't give the obligatory F Moash, that's implied. But his behavior in RoW when it comes to Kaladin is a bit strange. I believe he could have actually killed Kaladin either in Hearthstone or especially in the Tower. But he instead urges our favorite bridgeman to commit suicide. He even defies his master Rayse when he urges Moash to kill him. So is it a twisted form of hero worship? Does he really believe that Kaladin cannot be killed unless he suisides? Or is Moash accurately accessing Kaladin's abilities? Maybe Moash doesn't believe he has the skill necessary to defeat him. Or is it just defiance? He refuses to raise his hand toward his former commander because he still considers Kaladin a friend, albeit one with a severe difference of opinion? Or is it a combination of all these?

I don't know man. Complete Connection manipulation is frightening as all get out. And Rashek had some issues after his 1000 years of being needled by Ruin. What if Dalinar could just straight up snatch his Connection to the Shards? Or if not so drastic, maybe connect him with his memories of Alendi and drive him even more crazy? Don't get me wrong, Rashek murders any other Radiant with relative ease regardless of order or oath level. But Bondsmith powers are ridiculous on an entirely different order of magnitude than their Radiant counterparts. Rashek is still tough but a Bondsmith has a much more realistic chance to actually come out victorious. My opinion obviously.

If Ishar's trick of manipulation of Connection working similar to a regular Atium burn is the norm for a Bondsmith then there is at least 1 order of KR that, fully powered up, is going to have a major advantage over nearly anything the rest of the Cosmere could throw at them. Even a Fullborn may have trouble if said Bondsmith knows when a speed run is coming and can glue up the ground before the guy can reach them. Hyper Connection negates Atium shadows, grounds out Investiture, can actually steal others Shardic connections. If Dalinar at Oath 5 is even half as terrifying as Ishar was onscreen I'd give him nearly even odds vs. Rashek.