alder24

Battar looks spectacular. I looove it. And are those chicken skulls (looks like parrots) hanging from her belt?? WHY?? Tanavast holds the gem directly above his heart - a gemheart. This reminded me of a certain death rattle, which probably is unrelated, but sounds poetic in this context: Also Tanavast has a chain as his belt - a chain he used to imprison Odium? Cultivation looks like she just had the most fabulous musical entrance. Taln looks cool, we've seen this image before so not much to say. Yes. Violet Salas with Battar, blue Nomon with Ishar (all three moons are present on Ishar's image, but Nomon is in the center) and Mishim is with Ash. However Mishim is green, but the moon on Ash's image is red/orange, but this may be because only a tiny sliver of Mishim is illuminated in that image, unlike moons in Battar and Ishar's pictures, which are fully illuminated. I wonder why they have moons behind them and if this is someone related to Hoid's story.

"I’ve shown you what you need" - so there is more the Stormfather can show, but he chose not to. Even if the nature of those visions are a bit different, this is something the Stormfather was aware of the entire time, but chose to hide. He knew how to do that, he knew how to show it to Dalinar, he knew how Dalinar could see them, but he decided Dalinar didn't need to see it. And this makes his statement from OB ch 28 a plain lie, because there was more the Stormfather could have shown to Dalinar, there was more for Dalinar to see. Then he should have said "There are no other visions of Nohadon," instead he said "I've shown you all, I can show no more" - this is way too broad to be applied just for Nohadon. The Stormfather tried to mislead Dalinar and hide the fact that there are more visions. Who knows, maybe there are more visions of Nohadon, but if the Stormfather were to reveal that to Dalinar, then Dalinar could have rightly wondered "if the Stormfather hid one vision from me, how many more did he hide." And the fact that in WaT the Stormfather said "I’ve shown you what you need," not all that was created for you to see, but what you need, means what he said in OB ch 28 was intentionally misleading at best, a blatant lie at worst. This is not the first time the Stormfather was caught red-handed - this happened at least two times in OB. The first time was, when he tried to hide the fact that he can sense Ishar, a chapter later he tried to omit that Dalinar can speak other languages. Both times he revealed the truth only because Dalinar pressed him further and the Stormfather was not happy. OB ch 64: OB ch 65: Now I also think that Gavilar might have seen more than Dalinar and it makes sense. Dalinar's visions were focused on Radiants and Radiants alone, there was only one vision related to Heralds - the vision of Aharietiam. So why would Gavilar be certain that he was going to become a Herald? Why did he feel he knew Heralds very well and he thought of them as his colleagues? Maybe because he saw more visions of Heralds, visions of the Oathpact being made, ancient times when Heralds were joining the Oathpact or fighting during Desolations and all of this gave him a false impression that he was meant to be a Herald as well. And that's why the Stormfather said he will try differently next time, that's why he chose to hide those visions from Dalinar in the first place.

I don't agree. You have to kill off weeds to cultivate your plants. If a plant grows in a place it shouldn't, you can take small saplings of it and plant them in a more suitable space, while also destroying that plant. Cultivation would Splinter Odium and cultivate his Splinters afterwards, but she probably can't because it's very dangerous to go 1 on 1 with another Shard, Odium might have some advantage over her, her power might be already busy doing other things, or she's simply too afraid of an direct confrontation. She was hoping Taravangian would be a better Vessel, this plan failed, so maybe now it's time for pesticides (Dalinar). I disagree. I still think "I'm terrified" from WoK was said to Testament, it was her voice Shallan heard and because she tried to summon Testament as a Shardblade, she was able to Soulcast (WoB). This means that "I killed my mother" said at the end of WoR was her 3rd Ideal and ever since then she used Pattern as a Shardblade. Yes, she repeated this truth in WaT ch 9, which I still think she said to Testament. This strengthened their bond and allowed her to fully use substantiation. Her platespren were hanging around her from the very first chapter of WaT, before she reswore this Truth - in ch 5 she noticed a few unusual Creationspren which were changing shapes, unlike any other Creationspren in Shadesmar.

They were created after the Stormseat was broken, because the Song of War recalls this event. The songs were created shortly before or after the Last Legion abandoned their forms, as a way to preserve their knowledge. They had to be made within that generation otherwise Listeners would risk forgetting everything. And because Listeners fled to Narak specifically to isolate themselves from everyone on Roshar, if the Stormseat was shattered after Listeners abandoned their forms, they would have no idea that humans blamed Fused and Voidspren for the destruction of Stormseat, so the city was already broken when the Last Legion settled in it. Plus the Songs recall that the Last Legion chose those ruins as their home because they could isolate themselves. WoR I-4: Moreover, the song suggests that the destruction of Stormseat happened a long time before the False Desolation. Firstly, humans blame Odium's forces for its destruction, so they clearly don't know what happened there, or so much time had passed that the truth was forgotten. Secondly, they are blaming Singers gods - Fused, Voidspren and Unmades - all of which except for Mishram were either trapped on Braize, or were presumably inactive on Roshar during this time period. The sheer fact that Listeners know that Fused and Voidspren are their gods seems to suggest that the Last Legion lived when they were on Roshar - during one of real Desolations, which is at least 4500 years ago. Honor's death happened after the Recreance, thus after Mishram was captured and after the Last Legion was already exiled on Narak. However, because Honor's death was a long event and he was already dying when Recreance happened, he could have received a deadly wound which shattered Stormseat before all of this happened. Dawnshard maybe? Playing and amplifying an anti-tone of Stormseat? Every Dawncity has its own tone, as proved by cymatics and the Shattered Plains are symmetrical. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the anti-tone of the Stormseat itself (which may be related to the way a spren is being Unmade, as this theory suggests).

The name Narak means exile and that's because it's where the Last Legion escaped. Moreover the Song of Wars recorded that the Stormseat was already Shattered and all the songs were remembered before the Listeners abandoned their forms - the Stormseat had to be shattered long before Mishram was captured. WoR I-1:

Stormseat was already Shattered when the Last Legion abandoned Odium, which had to be at least before Mishram's imprisonment, if not even before the Aharietiam.

WaT ch 16: The Stormfather hid more visions from Dalinar, he rage-quitted angry at Cultivation for exposing the truth, he even lied to Dalinar in OB ch 28 saying he can't show him more visions. It really looks like Cultivation messed up whatever plans the Stormfather had - or maybe he just didn't want to be caught lying. The Stormfather can lie, can omit stuff from Dalinar, can have ulterior motives and can be just as suspicious as Gavilar's Stormfather. For me this is the final nail in the coffin of the Stormfaker theory. The Stormfather can't be trusted, he was the Stormfaker all along!

Oooo, good catch. I've completely skimmed over his name. Cosmere spoilers:

So much has happened in those new chapters. So many things were revealed. So much to talk about! I’m excited! Finally, a confirmation that Lightweavers receive their Shardblades at 3rd Ideal, just as all other orders. This means that all instances of Shallan summoning the Shardblade in WoR was her summoning Testament, not Pattern, including opening the Oathgate. Huh, the way the Unseen court and Lightweaver work sounds a bit like a mafia. Quite fitting to be fair, I hope there would be no wars between different “families.” There are two masked Ghostbloods on Roshar, Dlavil maybe? Cultivation is making a sound of stone when speaking? Syl said the Wind is of Honor, does this mean that spren of stones are of Cultivation? Honor’s visions is the power of Honor searching for a new Vessel? That’s surprising news. Was the dream he had at the end of WoR that power of Honor? I was kind of expecting that Cultivation won't say a word about Taravangian Ascending, but it still was disappointing. She met with him to reassure he’s on the right path to fight with the new Odium - now I’m quite sure Cultivation was prepared for Taravangian turning hostile and Dalinar was her plan. What was the other time Cultivation saw Odium frighten? His imprisonment? It was long ago so it can’t be Rayse’s death. I’m so excited for Dalinar to finally reveal what happened in the past. Yes, please, I’m ready for a huge lore dump! Wait, the Stormfather KNEW about other visions and he chose to HIDE THEM??? I KNEW IT!! The Stormfather CAN lie (we’ll see that) and hide things from others, he WAS Gavilar’s Stormfather. There never was any Stormfaker, it was always the Stormfather!!! I STORMING KNEW IT!!! And the Stormfather just ran away angry - it seems like Cultivation messed up with his plans or whatever he had! HA! Wit is using Tamu Kak to communicate with his “old friend.” First ever mention of it? Official drawings of Shallan’s plate and blades - they’re awesome! Damn, Adolin’s hate for his father is really much worse than it was in RoW. This is bad and even Adolin realized this. Frost was the old friend. He was a strong candidate but he didn’t intervene - his sister did. So it was Frost but it wasn’t. I still don’t understand how capturing a capital gives Odium an entire kingdom. This doesn’t make sense, unless there is something specific in Alethi law that grants one the entire region after its seat of power was captured or something like that. Or is this the matter of equivalent exchange - Dalinar argued for entire kingdoms, so Odium can argue for the same? I’m kind of disappointed by this loophole. It sounds weak - this only works because of some unknown Alethi law that none of us knew. And so the secret is out, Wit figured it out, Cultivation didn’t say a word. However, if Rayse wasn’t going to exploit loopholes, what is his Shadesmare fleet doing on course towards Azimir? He had to be the one who sent that army to attack, unless he called it back after making the deal, but then he died and Taravangian ordered it to move again on Azimir. The fleet had to be sent by Rayse, because no ship can pass through half of Shadesmar in a day. Ghostbloods' base is on Narak. I wonder if they will try to help Odium's attack from the inside, as they did strike a deal with Raboniel in RoW. It seems to me that their best course of action is to stick to Odium as now they are hunted by Dalinar and Shallan and they can't hope on their access to Oathgates. On the other hand I'm sure Odium would never agree to give Mishram to worldhoppers - but he doesn't have to know that yet.

Interesting. It seems preparation for the incoming attack is still ongoing, so it probably will be an interlude between part 2 and 3. Baxil visited Nightwacther and got an awful curse - he became immaterial, like a spren. How does that even work for him? That's the worst curse ever, but on the other hand it's so cool. Nightwatcher has finally outdone herself. Or maybe that was Cultivation as that kind of curse seems too complicated? If that was Cultivation, why did she do that? Now I want a full Baxil novel as that would be fun to read. I wonder what he asked for. In the WoK interlude he wasn't cursed yet, he was only thinking about visiting Nightwatcher and asking her for courage. I think he still asked for this - now he can be courageous because nobody can even see him. Axis is back and surprised, he somehow spoke with Ash when they were on the Emul offensive. Ash and Taln are also in Azir, which is not ok, they should be back in secure Urithiru. It's even worse that they seem to be forgotten. They may escape, be killed during the attack or maybe they will join the defense (I bet on this). I think there has to be some purpose behind their mention in this interlude. Cosmere spoilers:

I think this is the most likely case. Just because they accept Odium's place as a god on Roshar, doesn't mean they worship him. Due to the presence of Radiants, people back then might have been way more aware of things like this and would know that Odium is a god that tries to destroy them. It's happening way before Honor's death, because firstly it's a vision, all of them were created by Honor and most are showing visions of events he lived through, secondly it's the 8th Epoch, which means it's during the time of Heraldic Epochs, thirdly the vision takes place in Natanatan, one of the Silver Kingdoms, lastly they were expecting a new Desolation to come soon. And of course, there are Radiants in the vision, Recreance happened shortly before Honor's death, after which there were no more Radiants. WoK ch 19:

A Shard can't be fully killed, a spren can't be either. If a spren as big as an Unmade was killed, destroyed or broken, there would be some remnants of it somewhere. Some Deadeye, some lesser spren sharing a specific characteristic, or maybe it would have been reformed like a spren cut with a Shardblade, but we should see a sign of this somewhere.

I fully agree that Dawncities are strongly related to Urithiru because of their look. This is an interesting proposition and I think it's very likely. It all depends if the Sibling after Unmaking would still be bound to Urithiru or be free like other Unmades - which we don't know. But this does explain why they are so similar, why there are no spren manifested in Dawncities anymore and even what happened to the Shattered Plains. But then what do you think happened to the Stormseat spren after the failed attempt?

My view on Recreance is that pre-Mishram Radiants knew about destroying Ashyn, bringing Odium to Roshar and being the first Voidbringers who started the first Desolation. Unlike what previous generations were told, this time Honor didn't reassure them, instead he promised them they will destroy Roshar with Surges, just like they did with Ashyn. There were also a lot of conflicts between orders and the Tower was abandoned. That's the setup - then Mishram was imprisoned. By Sibling's words, everyone who belonged to Roshar was touched by this act - they should have felt it. We also have a WoB saying that Recreance happened in the span of days and it was a decision made in the heat of the moment individually. For me this means that all Radiants, wherever they were, decided to abandon their Oaths after feeling the consequences of Mishram's imprisonment, after feeling what they'd done to Roshar, after realizing that Honor was right. In my opinion Recreance is the direct aftermath of the imprisonment of Mishram and happened immediately after. And this leaves no time for Radiants to return to Urithiru and record time capsules. No gem indicates that Recreance is coming, that they'd decided to break their Oaths - contrary, there are records of Radiants speaking about swearing higher Oaths and worrying about their future. There is nothing in those messages that could be a foreshadowing of Recreance, nobody in those messages was planning to abandon their Oaths. For me this is another reason why it makes the most sense for all those gems to be recorded before Mishram's capture, because after it happened, all Radianst should have only one sentence in their mind - "what have we done." That's how I view this, that's what for me makes the most sense. Making a decision to bind Mishram and actually capturing her are two different things. The war was still happening in every part of Roshar, Radiants were struggling, fighting and saving people. The strike group sent to imprison Mishram still had to travel, find her, fight and capture her. It's no wonder there are 7 chapters in between. And even the chapter 38 of that book said that the Windrunners response to learning something important was the immediate abandonment of their Oaths, which supports my opinion that Recreance happened directly after Misharm was imprisoned. Those are fair points. This whole situation is full of unknowns, we only have clues to work with and we won’t be able to determine who's right. I really hope WaT will show Recreance in full light so we can finally know what happened in the smallest detail.

Moash sided with Odium, the Oathgate spren sided with nobody. They don't want to side with either Honor or Odium, they chose freedom. They like Venli, Leshwi and Listeners trying to find their own way to freedom. Listeners were given guarantees of their freedom by Kaladin and Dalinar. What message would that send to them if Dalinar ordered Oathgate spren to be killed? What message would that send to other spren? Side with us or be destroyed? That’s the worse possible action they can take. They might be afraid of Sja-Anat, but Glys is showing that it is time to change that. I don't agree. Some orders wouldn't care, others would - the same situation like with Sadeas' assassination.

That's true, this is a possible and likely explanation. However, I wouldn't call Kaladin's emotion's simple and there was also a voice (the Wind?) involved in Syl's transition. But on the other hand maybe Navani's emotions were vastly deeper at that moment because they were related to a great revelation about a fundamental part of her identity. Calling them simple would be a misservice. Thanks, missed that. That's why it would be so weird - they can't have a logical conversation, they just say random words or mimic each other. They still talk to each other, so it's a conversation, but it just makes no sense at all, so Wyndle can compare Lift's nonsense to this situation.

What is the timeline in your opinion? I think you believe that Radiants started to record some messages when the Tower was still fully functional and Sibling was engaged, Mishram was imprisoned, the Tower started failing, the Sibling withdrew, they recorded more gems and left the Tower, then the Recreance happened? Is that correct? As I said, I believe all gems were recorded before Mishram's capture and the gemstone archive makes even more sense if you sort it by drawers - the very first records talk about the Sibling's withdrawal and their fabrials failing, the very last are about plans to put BAM in a gemstone. What records speak to you as evidently recorded post-Misham? It didn't have to be a problem with Light, it could have been some Connection problem, Honor's changing, some deeper Spiritual problem with the Sibling, maybe an Unmade influence - we don't know what it was, but it didn't have to be just that they weren't able to produce Towerlight. But neither knights nor their spren knew Deadeyes would be created. Maya did expect pain, but not death. They would have no reasons to do it any other way - and if their bond was at the 5th Ideal, it can't be broken without killing the spren (Notum's words). Melishi dying in the process of binding is possible, but based on the Thrill's binding I don't really see what could cause his death. I don't think the bond fades and gets broken, it would be weaker, a Bondsmith would lose their powers, but it would never be broken just because Melishi/Navani left the Tower for too long. Sorry, I know, my mistake.

How about we find a way to stop them that doesn't involve killing spren? Most spren still can't forgive humans for killing their kind during Recreance, if Radiants now start doing this just for minor strategic advantages then all spren will turn away from them and humanity will be left with no Surgebinders. Winning one battle is not worth losing the entire war.

Yes, the imprisonment of Mishram caused the Tower to shut down completely, but this happened after the Sibling broke her bond with Melishi and after Radiants noted that the Sibling behaved weirdly and some systems had stopped working. We don't know what caused the Tower to fail before Mishram was imprisoned and that's what I was talking about. The bond with Melishi had to be broken before Mishram was imprisoned, otherwise the Sibling would have been still able to produce her light and would have been Deadeyed by the act of breaking the bond. Agreed, there are still way too many uncertainties around the Recreance and binding of Mishram and it seems like WaT will be heavily focused on this. I'm a bit sad that Shallan didn't press Kalak to reveal the full truth about Recreance (in epigraphs he said he knows the truth) because now Kalak is out of their reach.

You have a point, their description does look similar, so maybe they are Mistspren. But why would a Mistspren be attracted to her at that moment? She was overjoyed due to her acknowledging her self-worth and becoming a Radiant, which seems like a Lightweaver/Elsecaller thing to me, not Truthwatcher. Yes, the Truthwatcher's bits were still there, the excitement for science and future discoveries, but I don't think it was a dominant feeling. And that would be the first time when a True Spren was attracted to simple emotions - which is weird on its own. Maybe the awakening of the Sibling made them act like this, but I still think we can't say for sure a Keenspren is a Radiant spren, although it seems far more likely to me. Where is that image from? I don't recognize it from this fragment. Another good point, but I have to say that Windspren sometimes talks. So maybe that's why Wyndle referred to Keenspren as he heard non-sapient spren talking to each other and yet Lift still made a weird conversation than Keenspren. And that made me think - what if their similarity to Mistspren and potential ability to talk is an indication that they are a platespren of Truthwacthers? Windspren are almost unrecognizable from Honorspren, they can look exactly the same, they can talk and even use Adhesion, so why can't other spren have a similar relation with their platespren? Rarity wouldn’t prevent them from being a Keenspren - Logicspren are very rare in the east, yet they’re Elsecaller’s platespren.

Hello, welcome to the Shard. Not at all. Fused were still trapped on Braize when Mishram found a way to grant forms of power to Singers and started the False Desolation without Fused and Voidspren. Fused can reborn today with Mishram being still trapped. Mishram isn't related to Fused in that way. I think that's outside of Mishram's power, or rather Odium wouldn't allow her to make new Fused. We have no idea if Mishram can create a Cognitive Shadow, which Fused is, but she can grant forms of power. So yes, Kelsier might want to have Mishram to grant him some powers (which doesn't make you a Fused), maybe even Allomancy if she plays properly with Connections. And Kelsier would not want to become a Fused - they are bound to Odium, filled with his investiture and trapped on Roshar. None of this is attractive at all. He already is a kind of Fused, just without a stable body. Fused are Cognitive Shadows, just like Kelsier is. A few, off the top of my head: Use Mishram's Connection manipulation powers to unkey Stormlight so it can be moved out of Roshar. Use Mishram's Connection manipulation powers to give forms of power to Ghostbloods. Use Mishram's Connection manipulation powers to awaken Preservation's fragment in every Scadrian and make everyone a Metalborn. Use Mishram's Connection manipulation powers to allow Kelsier to leave Scadrial. Generate Voidlight.

One spren that Navani has never before seen in her life? A spren which name she knew meaning it's a known type of spren spotted by other people on Roshar? And that spren is the Sibling's platespren? I'm not really buying this. There are some spren which are very rare, like Gloomspren seen by Kaladin. OB ch 5: We know all 10 types of Radiant spren and Keenspren is not one of them. The WoB on which wiki is based said only that Keenspren is a nickname but Brandon neither confirmed nor denied if they are Radiant spren. I'm pretty sure with its appearance in recent WaT chapter we can safely say it's just an emotion spren and the WoB is outdated or there is just another name for Keenspren. Nightwatcher was confirmed by the Stormfather to be a Bondsmith spren.

OB ch 67, 68 and 70 epigraphs: Honor was already in the process of dying (it was a protracted event) and he changed in some way (he was also raving about Dawnshards at the same time). Something was happening to the Sibling, something that the Sibling might not even have any control over, which others perceived as the Sibling withdrawing. I wouldn't be surprised if Honor's death throes affected the Sibling. It's also possible that whatever Mishram did to Connect herself to every Singer, affected the Sibling as well. After all, if her imprisonment wounded everyone who belonged to Roshar, the very act of forging that Connection might have caused the Sibling to behave weirdly. However this is highly speculative. Yes, Connection can be forged, but that doesn't give you understanding. Read again the chapter in which Dalinar captured the Thrill (OB 120) - it's because Dalinar understood it on the deepest level possible that he was able to open himself to it and embrace it. A forged Connection won't provide you this kind of understanding. Yes, the gemstone said they need Melishi, but this can also mean that Melishi was the only one who understood Mishram like Dalinar understood Nergaoul. I don't really see any evidence for this. It seems to me like the decision was made to abandon the Tower and Radiants were allowed to make a time capsule. During Recreance the Sibling was unbonded and abandoned, the Oathgates were already closed, nobody would be allowed to enter the Tower to record anything shortly before. The situation between the Sibling and Ivory/Pattern/Syl was a bit different. The Sibling was looking at the potential candidates for a bond, while others were already bonded and wouldn't be looking at others deeply enough to notice their bonds. But they didn't know how. They just knew the Sibling broke their bond before the Recreance, but they didn't know why they made such a decision and how they knew to do that.

This isn't a good place to argue about this, but Kaladin is above the cloud layer, at night, with strong wind blowing all around him - he lacks a good reference point and nearly motionless would be perceived by him as truly motionless. I highly doubt it would take hours like you suggesting.

It's a spoiler for length, not for spoilers. Well, there is another option. Renarin is hard to define as a true modern Radiant with his bond with an Enlightened spren. He's something new, outside of the Radiant orders established by Ishar. What if those are "Skybreakers" bonded with an Enlightened Highspren? Mraize does want to cooperate with Sja-Anat and bond one of her spren, so maybe Ghostbloods eventually succeeded and Sja-Anat convinced Highspren to be Enlightened and they bonded with some of their agents? The height can be explained by a simple perception trick combined with healing. Or they were originally from Scadrial, they bonded spren on Roshar and returned to Scadrial - we're talking about Ghostbloods members, they can be from everywhere. RoW ch 54: I think it's highly unlikely for Skybreaker's squires to work differently than all other orders. Squires require proximity and why would Skybreakers be different? And such strong connections rarely span distances that large. Yumi ch 21: They are still Radiants. Yes, they can be carried out of Roshar, no, they can't grant powers to multiple people, they don't grant squires - one person holding a Honorblade gets powers, nobody else. There was a whole group of people with powers in TLM.