robardin

I wonder just how "very very old. Very old" the Ire are. They're Elantrians, yeah - but maybe even pre-Reod Elantrians isn't old enough, because when the Aonic peoples arrived from who Raoden is descended, and who formed the population of Arelon, they found the city already there and abandoned by some pre-Aonic people who had vanished. After a generation or so the Aonic Arelonians began giving birth to people who were taken by the Shaod to become Elantrians, and they ruled and did wondrous things with Aons, but that was all largely a pattern of rediscovery of what the Ancient Elantrians (if that is what they called the city) could do. Those Ancient Elantrians built the city before Odium came over and Splintered Dominion and Devotion, too: I'm thinking the Ire are from THAT era of so-called Elantrians. (Which city's original name may have been Iretown or something, haha.) They left Elantris once they built technology to maintain their Spiritual Connection to AonDor from anywhere in the Cosmere - why stay stuck in a small patch of land on Sel?

Don't take Nale's words as insightful as to what's going on. I always thought that angle ("must prevent Nahel bonds from forming to avert enough Connection between worlds to form a bridge and bring about another Desolation") indicative of Ishar and Nale's insanity, because that doesn't make sense. l mean, Nale himself is still leading a group forming new Nahel bonds: the Skybreakers. So how, then, is that somehow an exception? He never did explain how "what you do [to Lift, in forming a bond to Wyndle] could bring about the end of the world" yet not what HE did with recruiting new Skybreakers all the time to bond to highspren. He's evidently trusting or following what Ishar told him, who as we eventually see directly, is chull-dung crazy if a Bondsmith isn't leveling up. And by those words, Nale seems to think forming enough of a "bridge of connection" via Nahel bonds would trigger another Desolation even if "Taln has not given in - I would know". Which has never happened before? I mean, even before Aharietiam, the Radiant orders existed in between Desolations, and of course even after Aharietiam (as seen in one of Dalinar's first visions of Radiants coming to help him fight against Midnight Essence), up until the False Desolation that ended with BAM's engemming and then the Recreance, all in short order. That's THOUSANDS of years tallied up, of "people forming lots of Nahel bonds of all kinds on Roshar without a Herald breaking on Braize and yet no Desolation until that happened".

Wow... That's a new take, LOL. I mean, it is to the death. So Odium could send the immortal Nale as his Champion (ironic, isn't it?) and just... Outlive Dalinar in any game of attrition! "We each play Solitaire until one of us wins, with equal decks of 51 cards, and the loser forfeits his life. Take as many meal, potty, etc. breaks as you like!"

Well it would significantly change the characters/storylines as we know them, for some of what has been considered above... Harmony DID restore (heal) Vin and Elend's bodies, and they could have returned to life in them, but instead they chose to go Beyond. Or perhaps he COULD have "forced the issue", but respected their wishes. Either way, it's impossible: the first for Cosmere mechanical reasons, the second for reasons of "then he wouldn't have been Sazed". I don't think Kelsier could have taken up both Shards, at least not naturally; as it was in Secret History, we see that he needed that "Connection bomb" from the Ire to seize Preservation upon Leras' death, and the power "resisted" him, because of his natural connection (by nature and character) to Ruin. And I think merging both Shards into one, be that Harmony or Discord, required picking both up at the same time, as Sazed did. At least those particular two: given how opposite Preservation and Ruin are, I don't think a Vessel of Preservation could "take up" Ruin as an add-on, so to speak. And as for Kelsier Snapping earlier in life "as Vin had" - I've always wondered why Kelsier didn't Snap when Marsh did, as they grew up together, and Marsh cited seeing their mother taken by the Steel Ministry for execution was what Snapped him. At one point Kelsier explained to Vin that "the stronger the Allomancer, the more it takes to Snap", implying that that trauma wasn't enough to Snap him as a Mistborn but seeing Mare beaten to death in front of him at the Pits was... But not working the Pits for weeks at a time before that, on death's edge, while getting his arms scarred? I think Preservation had a hand in Kelsier's Snapping, like giving him a bit of mistboost to Mistborn level Investiture, which was all part of Preservation's Very Long Game to die but take Ruin with him and to create the true Hero of Ages, in Harmony (Discord?), as Kelsier recalls when hearing Leras' (ghost's) last words:

I would agree with the "too obvious" objection, based on the precedent forever set by Mistborn if nothing else, but both Oathbringer and Rhythm of War were books with epigraphs from the in-world books of the same title, where it was clear quite quickly, based on events transpiring in the book, that they was written by Dalinar and Navani respectively.

And yet Dalinar (without knowing that Taravangian has Ascended as Odium) has already realized this in Ch. 6, it'd be funny if Hoid didn't because he "knows" Rayse wouldn't be that way. “But I can’t imagine what the contest will be like. I feel it won’t be a clash of swords, but what? What am I missing? Have I doomed us, Kaladin?” And remember, Taravangian feels that his loophole guarantees his satisfaction regardless of the outcome, not that he sees a way to fix the outcome itself. And I'd venture that even as the just-Ascended Shard, I think TOdium immediately could foresee that Dalinar would/did pick himself as his own champion. Because that's just the kind of guy Dalinar is. Taravangian probably would have expected that even as a mortal man.

That's my reading of this as well. The writer of KoWaT is a historian/philosopher who has read deeply of the past, was not present at the "cleansing of Shinovar" that had only two direct participants/witnesses remaining, and which resulted in the disappearance of the Heralds and "the Wind", which the writer had "known" in their past. Moreover, the Wind (having "recovered her voice" after Taravangian's Ascension) spoke of "the cleansing of Shinovar" using "her own words" directly to both of those two "sources". Since we know Kaladin and Szeth (and their spren) are heading over there now, it stands to reason it's the two of them, or one of them and their spren (note that Szeth's highspren barely speaks even to him, so far more likely it's Kal and Syl if it's a human/spren pair). It's so obvious that it's almost MORE likely that this is a Sanderson Blind Alley

Yeah I thought about this angle as well. Szeth can read and write Alethi, as we know from the Gavilar prologue to TWoK. But he has never considered himself an historian or a philosopher, so far as I know. He’s definitely a man of action and few words. It’d be an interesting development if it turns out that before being made Truthless, Szeth had been a nerdy guy buried in history and philosophy books while training with “all ten Surges” with the eight Honorblades in Shinovar for as yet unknown reasons. LOL

I don't think Syl reads, nor describes herself at times as either an historian or a philosopher. Assuming it's someone we've seen before in Stormlight (as a main character and native of Roshar, not Khriss or some Silverlight Worldhopper scholar), the leading candidates for sure are Navani or Jasnah, IMHO. (Shallan a distant third, it's not her "tone" of writing, plus Shallan doesn't write, she draws!) Personally I think it's Jasnah, a prominent and self-identified "Veristitalian" in TWoK when Shallan first goes to her in Kharbranth, an "order" of scholarship dedicated to the study of history. Meanwhile, Navani is far more practical (an artifabrian), even getting "lectured by [her] own daughter... again" about the importance of history when she (Navani) dismissed the gemstone archive found at Urithiru as "mostly containing personal histories" with the comment "Damnation!". Add to that the implication that the writer of KoWaT had "known" the Wind at some time in her personal past and the as-yet-unexplored reasons for Jasnah's "mental breakdown" that got her locked away for a while before TWoK, and yeah... I'm totally in Camp Jasnah. "But the Wind said that the change in Odium's Vessel is what allowed her to restore her voice!" Yes, and yet, the Wind also apologized to Kaladin for having to "ask more" of him, and he felt it was familiar even as he'd never heard the voice before. So there's "knowing" the Wind, as even young Kaladin mentioned a few times, and actually "hearing" the Wind in words? (And were the later "voices" Jasnah heard related to her nascent spren bond with Ivory, the way that Shallan and Elhokar saw the "shadows and shapes" of Cryptics in corners and mirrors?)

That was my thought too. I'm in Camp Jasnah after six chapters! Also, aside from who's writing the in-world KoWaT, I think what happens in Shinovar that causes the Heralds and the Wind (capital W) of Roshar to "disappear", that is related to "cleansing Shinovar", is something that happens with only Kal and Szeth around, on top of Heralds and the Wind. Not that there was a mass killing of the population of the land. Like, Szeth decides that "cleansing" Shinovar of its false leaders equates to removing the source of error, which would be some combination of mad Herald(s) / Unmade / etc., and whatever slurps / zaps / blows those all away counts as his Crusade.

What? He definitely inteded to kill Taravangian, and in fact did (see above from @alder24). And after having drawn an ordinary knife and not Nightblood, and had no idea Rayse was around; indeed, he would not even have recognized the name of the Vessel of Odium. And in fact, he couldn't have done it even if HAD known and wanted to, not without drawing Nightblood in a place where Rayse's Vessel had put in a manifestation, which was only in that "pocket dimension" vision he pulled Taravangian into in order to blame him for Kaladin escaping his grasp at Urithiru. The only person we've seen able to "self-insert" into one of those vision "pocket dimensions" without being pulled in by a Shard is Lift. And apparently Nightblood, by virtue of not being a "person" who needs inviting, but as a super-highly Invested object that just manifests "at all levels". I concur that Szeth's taking personal decision on ending Taravangian for his crimes against humanity (and for having used Szeth as the tool to do so, all the while knowing he had been erroneously made Truthless) is not breaking an oath but actually moving past the "crutch" of the Skybreakers' Third Ideal and advancing towards the Fifth Ideal. And what oath would he have been breaking, anyway? Kaladin lost his Stormlight-driven energy when he ran at Adolin in personal anger at having been Plate-punched by him on the sparring ground in WoR, which Syl explained with a simple question, "Who were you protecting?" Because that's why Windrunners exist. Had Szeth attempted to kill for personal gain or even purely for personal vengeance, that might be breaking the nature of a Skybreaker. But in his monologue to Taravangian, he makes it clear that he is taking the judgment of death upon himself for what Taravagian had done to the world, not just to himself.

Wow that's kind of dark. I can't believe Brandon would ever write something like that *cough*, so maybe give it a go! LOLOL

Well, killing someone with a duralumin spike to steal their Identity is one way to do it, but I was suggesting that the original Feruchemist - presumably a full one, who can create unkeyed metalminds by filling an aluminummind with his Identity at the same time as another metalmind (which would be sans Identity) - could also be filling a nicrosilmind, with no Identity, with his ability for F-aluminum (the "unsealed metalmind" that anybody can tap and gain F-aluminum). Now here's the question - could that Feruchemist do something like fill TWO aluminumminds? One with the "shunted Identity" that allows the creation of unkeyed metalminds, the "jailbreak metalmind" if you will, and a second one that contains... "pure" Identity? Or is there no Identity left to store in that one, since it's been shunted to the first one? Or is it just a contradiction in terms to talk about an unkeyed aluminummind?

What exactly is "Identity" in Cosmere magic is as yet unknown, except that storing it in a metalmind while filling another one is a technique to make an "unkeyed" metalmind. And that presumably, an aluminum medallion (an aluminummind filled with the original Feruchemist's Identity, plus the unsealed nicrosilmind granting the power of F-aluminum) would allow someone to then use all the "normal", keyed metalminds of that original Feruchemist. So does that mean it's somehow possible to make an unkeyed aluminummind? A metalmind any Feruchemist with F-aluminum could tap, and access another Feruchemist's Identity? What it would mean for the original Feruchemist to tap his own atiummind is unknown, as is what the weird feeling would be for someone to tap another person's Identity that way without first "removing" their own Identity. What would be the effect of having two Identities, spiritually or cognitively speaking - a blending into a new Identity, an overlay of "one that's on top" based on Investiture level, or an optional selection for the person as to which they want to "Identify" with at any given time (swappable)? Or to use such a medallion to do the reverse - to give someone the ability for F-aluminum and then somehow make them leave some of their Identity in an unkeyed aluminummind, that you could then access for their Identity, for whatever reason. Kind of like metalborn fingerprinting?

Horneaters engage in trade with worldhoppers through the Shardpool, so I don't think they're "unaware of other worlds" since they would obviously know those "people in the spren world" were not from Roshar. Dawnshard Ch. 7:

I was making a parallel about how one could "never see someone again" (as Kaladin apparently thinks Wit feels about him), yet that person not be dead. Whatever happened to him off-screen in RoW when he returned to the Horneater Peaks, I am pretty sure Rock is not dead. Just... Gone. Just a gut feeling, of course - but I will note that all along Rock said he would have to "go to the gods" for using a weapon, that he has revered Syl as a fragment of divinity, that the Horneaters view the other side of Cultivation's Perpendicularity (Shadesmar) as the domain of gods, and that Skar and Drehy relayed news upon returning such that "it seemed Kaladin wouldn't be seeing Rock again". It seemed to me that Kaladin felt Rock's absence at Teft's memorial more as a "gang's not all here" feeling and not mourning his death as he was Teft's. Now, I don't think it's as simple as that Rock was exiled to join the Horneater clan that lives in Shadesmar full-time - we had mention of such a group in RoW - because Kaladin has been to Shadesmar and no doubt could easily get there through an Oathgate. But whatever the details of Rock's fate, I think it involves some kind of exile through the Shardpool. And that's also not to say that that's what I think will happen to Kaladin, as far as Hoid thinks it might turn out. Just that Hoid (perhaps with a Fortune-based foretelling) acting like that conversation in KWoT Ch 4 was the last time he'd see Kaladin face to face, doesn't equate to foreseeing him dead.

Hoid called it a "Trailman's Flute" when he gave it to Kaladin, so I'm guessing it's Invested in some way that the ordinary, but same-fingering learner version is not. We have known there are Tones for each God (since RoW), and Rhythms are "orthogonal" to tones - thus the tones of the Gods can be set to different rhythms in different melodies. As we know from various POVs in previous works, Roshar has "rhythms" that the singers/listeners are attuned to, and different from the rhythms of Odium. I'm hoping that the "Song of Mornings" ends up being what called humanity like a beacon to Roshar (I presume from Ashyn). Hoid refers to the Wind as "Roshar listening and singing back" because it is as old as Roshar, created by Adonalsium at the same time as the planet and its storming workings. "What happens when you try living for you?" - I actually found that comment heartening from Hoid. I don't think he foresees Kaladin's death in the coming days, rather that he does not expect to see Kaladin again, which is different, and this probing question to Kal suggests there IS something for Kal to "live for", and not just for the next eight days. Like, I also don't think Rock is dead. Just... Not ever coming back to Roshar. And as a Sunlit Man spoiler, And lastly: there just HAS to be a reason B-A-M has "Ado" as a "middle name". It'd be rather disappointing otherwise.

Well just as I think the mention of having "read" about "ancient days" of "both human and listener" precludes Kaladin (as someone who can't read), I would think it precludes Thude, Rlain, or Venli's mother as listeners who similarly did not read or write (the listeners having an oral tradition). Venli maybe could in Envoyform, or have learned to do so while working with Raboniel who certainly could, as a scholar.

I'm pretty sure the Stormfather counts as an "Old Magic" spren - we have WoBs that firmly state that highstorms and the Stormfather on Roshar both pre-date the Shattering, but that the SF "was not in his present state" back then. Obviously that means not having a Splinter of Honor attached to him, but quite likely also that his "upgrade" to be able to form a Nahel bond to a human Bondsmith was something that only happened as an action of Honor after his arrival to Roshar (similar to the Nightwatcher becoming Cultivation's "pet spren"). Well the opening to the eipgraph to Chapter 4 of KoWaT ("I have read that in the ancient days, the Wind often spoke to both human and singer") suggests the writer is not Kaladin, who cannot read. So... Renarin? I would have thought Szeth, but the tone of the words doesn't seem like Szeth at all.

I agree, Ico (who is strongly implied is Timbre's "father") is likely a typical Reacher who have long viewed humans as "untrustworthy" since the Recreance, and I think even with Maya's Revelation filtering out among the spren, it would take time to overcome that longstanding prejudice. Especially when there ARE hundreds of listeners to bond. Just like Yunfah, the honorspren who'd lost his Radiant, was very resistant to consider bonding with Rlain as "one of the enemy" despite him being in Bridge Four, but still "fell in line" when ordered by Kaladin "his superior officer" to give him a chance (which obligation Rlain then released him from). If pressed, they'd admit they COULD bond such an individual, but they don't WANT to, and don't feel that they should HAVE to. And it really is about anger over the Recreance and not how "humans" are "prone to oathbreaking". I mean, the listeners are themselves descended from singers who broke away from Odium, presumably becoming some kind of oathbreakers - certainly labeled as "traitors" by the Fused - in the process, yet their exemplifying a desire to be "free and independent" is very attractive.

Ah yes, in the Desi translation, LOL. Along with "Do the necessary". At first I wondered why my Indian/Pakistani colleagues seemed concerned about me possibly needing to use the restroom

Yeah, and it's fun to consider who/what this being could be. It says it is sorry to "ask more" of Kaladin - so it's relied on Kal already? And it's something "on the wind" that Syl can sort of sense but not hear. The scenes from TWoK and WoR where latent or at best, Second Ideal Kaladin felt like he could dodge two Shardblades at once even with his eyes closed - that wasn't an aspect of being a Windrunner, and was something he felt was "windy", so was that whatever this is? We've been told that there is something about Kaladin that makes the Stormfather address him as "Child of Tanavast" versus "Child of Honor" as he addresses other nascent or actual Surgebinders... Is this it?

You Push/Pull from/towards your own COG but you can target whatever point on the metal object. For example it's how Kelsier is described as "spinning" metal in his duel against Kar the Inquisitor, he Pushed on one end of a metal rod while Pulling on the other end, like you would do to spin a coin on a tabletop. And Pulling open a heavy metal door is exactly what Vin and Elend do to access TLR's storage caches in HoA, except they have to simultaneously Pull on something fixed or heavy behind them to provide the counterweight so they don't just Pull themselves towards the doors. A double-iron Twinborn could just stand there and do it. And they don't have the doors fly into their faces. Just like when you pull on a heavy door IRL, once you feel it start to move, you stop increasing your pull strength, and when it gets to where you want it to be, you stop pulling. Just because you pull a heavy refrigerator away from the wall towards you doesn't mean you smack yourself with it, right? I mean yeah, if you overestimate how heavy the thing you're Ironpulling on is - you thought it was heavy and gave it a huge jolt to start with, and whoa it wasn't heavy at all and now it's flying at you - that could happen. But that could happen with ordinary A-iron, even without tapping an ironmind. And I assume most Lurchers would have a pretty good "feel" for how much strength it takes to move the metal as soon as they started Pulling, just like you have a pretty good feel for "hey this dumbell labeled 20 lbs. is a foam dummy one" if you physically picked up such a thing.

But you forget, you can also make yourself LIGHTER and pull yourself against something large and heavy. You could sling through the city like Spider-Man, as easily as a Coinshot could fly above the city. And if it's heavy enough or anchored enough, like set in the ground or something, it would stop moving when you stopped Ironpulling. Nobody said you only have to Pull things that were or would become airborne. So you could open massive steel doors, like bank vaults or prison bars. They won't fly into your face at high speed unless you actually wanted them to, haha.

I'm hoping for a Mistborn level of "OMG" when we realize who the writer of the epigraphs in "Wind and Truth" are, especially since we can already see that's the in-world name for something written down on pages as well. Like, what if it turns out to be Elhokar's diary or something? LOL