robardin

Agree 100% that the theme of Radiance is that nobody is too far gone to "come back", and that what's derailed Moash has been... Moash. And the theme of "giving your pain to Odium" as a shield/crutch against the pangs of conscience, is that it holds you back from growth and genuine change. But, that wasn't quite what I meant by PoNR - not that Moash "cannot have a redemption arc", no character is beyond that. I meant in the context of "Moash being the source of what's holding Moash back from being Full Bridge Four", as a Windrunner, as depicted in Renarin's vision/projection. Up until the point he ACTUALLY killed Elhokar, in front of Kaladin, I think he could have convinced himself "OK, I messed up, but I can still make it right with Kal and the others", and been right. He would have explored the very limits of the Second and Third Ideals of the Windrunners, and come down on the side of choosing the "right" side (for an honorspren). As for the mechanics of that projected image of him in Hearthstone - I do think it is very much akin to a malatium shadow in Mistborn (reminder, this is the Stormlight forum, BTW). With Adolin in the paddock, he saw an image of himself "perfected, ... somehow complete and whole, the man he could be". But with Moash, the filmy image of him that stepped towards the light - the Windrunner one - that was the perfect version of Moash that could have been. ("And who knows? Perhaps it is the him that would have been.") Because even Kaladin can no longer forgive him after that meeting in Hearthstone, much less after killing Teft and several other unconscious Radiants later, that's for sure. Finally, I don't think Kaladin could ever have had a perspective that "compelled him to kill Elhokar" and still retained his bond with Syl/been a Windrunner. As Syl herself said when he was thinking it'd be best for Elhokar to be eliminated, to let Elhokar be assassinated with his knowledge, "You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin... You're not supposed to be like this." "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." = Better not be killing unconscious, bound, or oblivious people who trust you with their life, or letting them die on your watch with your approval.

I agree that was the PoNR from the POV of Moash internalizing it as such ("Kaladin. He'd tried to kill Kaladin. ... Storms. He should throw himself into the fire", he thinks to himself as he sits around in a daze with Graves and other Diagrammers fleeing the warcamps). And of course, that counts for more than anything else. But, I don't think that was actually as PoNR as he thought it was. Dalinar had done as bad, or worse, in his youth, that he looks back on with great regret, shame, or even horror. And if intent counted for anything, Moash (I believe truthfully) said he hadn't meant to punch Kaladin as hard as he did - he wasn't accustomed to the strength lent by Shardplate, nor used to dealing with a de-powered Kaladin. Basically what I'm saying is, the "alternate Moash" we saw in Renarin's vision, didn't have to be one that never pursued the plot against Elhokar, or even one that gave it up when Kaladin stressed that "we can't be this kind of men". I think that, had he found a way to do it, when he came out with Khen and the other singers who knew Kaladin at Kholinar, facing off against Skar and Drehy, finding Kaladin locked up in the battle and pleading for everyone to just. Stop. FIGHTING, ... if instead of pushing his way to the front to finish off a fallen Elhokar, he had instead pulled his squad of singers back and tried to stop everything, ... ...he maybe could still have left with Bridge Four and been pardoned. We'll never know, though, because that's not what happened.

Without getting into yet another discussion/debate over Moash's various acts or decisions in Stormlight 1-4, I wanted to bring up something specific. When he is feeding Kaladin's depression in Hearthstone (after killing two bound and captive villagers Kaladin had grown up with, and then Roshone, in front of him), he is interrupted by Renarin's arrival, including a glowing light in which a filmy vision/version of himself is visible: standing tall in a Bridge Four coat, protecting people, eyes burning Windrunner blue as a Shardspear formed in his hand... This vision breaks through Odium's shielding him from "his pain", causing him to flee. So obviously, "in another life", Moash (like most of the rest of Bridge Four) would have first squired to Kaladin, then bonded an honorspren. At what point was that version of Moash rendered impossible? (Assuming it still impossible, after all he's done?) Had he been persuaded by Kaladin's speech about "come with me and we will get justice against the right man, Roshone" when he and Graves confronted a wounded Kaladin over an unconscious Elhokar at the end of WoR, and stood with him against Graves (another full Shardbearer), would that have still enabled Kaladin to find the Third Ideal? Or even, after physically attacking Kaladin, once Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, causing Graves to flee... Could Moash still have laid down his Shards then, begged Kal's forgiveness, and remained in Bridge Four and on the path to squiredom and bonding an honorspren? Instead of running off with Graves? As for Moash's betrayal of Bridge Four's duty - as he pointed out, Kaladin had done the same. And as for the personal betrayal in assaulting Kaladin, well, had he not gone further and further down that road, I think even that was not the final turning point. It's noteworthy that Kaladin did not tell Bridge Four of Moash's actions for some time afterward, and even still referred to him as "my friend" when punching Roshone in the face when he went to Hearthstone after the Everstorm, in Oathbringer. And as Rock said about Rlain, who named himself a traitor, "Ha! Is little problem. Can be fixed." I think the problem is that, as with Amaram, the man who cannot forgive himself for that betrayal... Is himself. Killing Elhokar in Kholinar, who was clearly allied with Kaladin, and while backed by a squad of singers, ... I think that may have been the PoNR.

GUYS GUYS I THINK I FOUND BA-ADO-MISHRAM

Well, say "Full Compounder" out loud. Now say it faster. And faster. And faster. Full Compounder. F'l C'mpounder. F'l'c'p'nder. ...Flounder?

It's definitely a RAFO scenario, but the fact is, a Feruchemical chromiummind is the only Cosmere magic we've seen so far to explicitly work with Fortune. I have to say, the "motto" of the Stonewards, "I will be there when needed", sounds pretty similar to what literally moves Hoid, who said to Dalinar after the latter gave him food for thought on the nature of unity in Ch. 67 of Words of Radiance: I mean, on the face of it, how could a Stoneward promise to "be there when needed" if they weren't usually where they needed to be already, when needed?

You touch on one interesting question we have no answer to: why is/was Feruchemy specifically linked with the Terrisfolk? Was it a case of Feruchemists being clannish from way back, or other some kind of Act of Shard (or Hoid) to trigger it? After all, before Rashek's Ascension and the first round of mistsnapping / lerasium beads causing Allomancy to arise more in the general population, Feruchemy was "even more common than Mistings" at the end of the Final Empire among the pre-Ascension Terrisfolk. Is it due to some extra Connection, along with other things, at the time of a person's conception? Could be... But, Connection to what?

The only explanation for the term "Mistborn" in-world came from the scant history of those early years recorded Sazed's metalminds, that the earliest Allomancers appeared "with the mists" (the mistsnapping that began happening as the Well of Ascension drew close to filling, as described by Alendi's logbook, and as witnessed by Sazed even before Ruin was released). It's not a term that TLR created/promoted with the Steel Ministry, though they did readily use it. The term that appears to be Rashek's invention with his Ministry is "Allomancy", and a wielder of it an "Allomancer", as the Inquisition's mission is to seek out and brutally punish "crimes against Allomancy" as blasphemy (which is not limited to hunting down illegal half-bred skaa Allomancers, it also included punishing nobles who abuse it, like by using it to try to influence an obligator). For all we know, that word is derived from his having "allocated" the beads of lerasium to his original key followers! It does appear the origin of the powers with ingesting a bead of metal was successfully suppressed; I guess the original kings were told to say they were "given the divine power by The Lord Ruler, who is God Himself, and surpasses even us in might", as a way to kickstart the Steel Ministry as a true religion with tangible proof of real power.

The only downside is, "Mistborn" is a term used in-world, and while "wrong" (Mistborn were not, in fact, "born" from the mists - if anything, some subset of Mistings were "mistsnapped" into existence), it's because they were all either TLR or part of his crew of ten (?) lerasium ingestors that emerged out of nowhere after "the mists receded" (aka the "Deepness was defeated") and oh yeah, the sun went red, the continents moved around, ash filled the sky, little stuff like that. As far as the people of that time could tell, they were indeed "born" from the mists, as if the mists disappeared as part of the reason all those things happened. (Which was not, in fact, untrue, but with A Lot More to That Story Than They Knew About.) And then later, the term carried over to describe their descendants with the same powerset. The ones that appeared after a few generations with only access to a single metal got a diminutive term. OTOH the term "Fullborn" is not used in-world on Scadrial, and is unlikely to be the term they would come up with in-world. The only context they have for such a thing is Rashek TLR. Even when wielding or referring to using the Bands, someone like Wax or Edwarn doesn't say "and you will be as a Fullborn", rather that they would be "like the Lord Ruler". It's also why they immediately assumed "The Sovereign" who Allik tells them created the Bands, and must have been someone who had "both powers for all sixteen metals in one person", must have been TLR who somehow survived or reincarnated in the South. They don't say "Wow, another Fullborn popped up down there?!". I have no problem using "Fullborn" on a fan message board, there's a lot of history/tradition of that here already that I'm not suggesting we throw out. But I also think it's fun to consider what a Kelsier, Khriss, or Harmony might come up with as a term for it.

32Born??? That's a new one to me, LOL. Yeah, it's "taken", I would say, otherwise kind of perfect. My comment was that stacking multiple metals with both Metalborn powers and enabling Compounding, on shared metals, without Hemalurgy or some external device like the Bands, is something we've only seen achieved in Rashek. So maybe we may as well name it after him. Not quite "Ascension" but becoming a "Rasheki"? After all, when Vin and Elend started to see Inquisitors with new spikes for Feruchemy in HoA, they refer to them as like fighting "another Lord Ruler".

OK, that's fair - "Mistborn" is the in-world term for the most powerful Allomancers, dating back to the original ten lerasium ingesters (plus TLR) who all appeared after the mists (the "Deepness") had receded, and the entire planet had suddenly and completely changed topologically and ecologically. At the same time, I think "Fullborn" is, despite its frequent use in this forum, a fan term and not canonical? Like, does the word ever occur in any published Cosmere work, including Khriss' Ars Arcana notes? It's a useful fan term, one I have used and will use for it, not saying it isn't, and I know there are WoBs where Brandon responds to and uses the term freely. Still, if it were up to me to coin a term for an OP mashup of a Mistborn and Feruchemist, it'd have been Mistferaku or something like that, LOL

I would think that a Princess of Alethkar, sister to the King, departing Kharbranth after so long a residency, would be Big News. And thus, the direction and manner of her travel not so hard to find out?

Yeah, that discussion should be taken to another thread. For the record - I am well aware that there were indeed multiple, long threads on that topic that erupted after the SA5 Prologue was read/documented in the Arcanum, I participated in at least one of them, and remain unmoved in my convictions!

The very term "Fullborn" is questionable (where does it even come from?), as there has literally never been anbody BORN with both (full) Feruchemy and Allomancy (Mistborn). In all of Scadrian history, there has only ever been one way to be a full Feruchemist - to be born one, as an appropriately sDNA'ed Terris person. And, generally, only one way to be a Mistborn instead of a Misting, and that's to ingest a lerasium bead, or to be descended from someone who did. ...or to be Rashek, who was already a Feruchemist, and directly modified his Spiritweb with the power of Preservation while Ascended, to stack on Allomancy beyond the power level of even a lerasium Mistborn. Prior to this "direct injection of Preservation's power", Allomancy occurred rarely but naturally in the Scadrian population, or by mistsnapping in two periods separated by 1024 years, but only as Mistings (for one metal). By contrast, until the Catacendre and the elimination of all living Feruchemists (through Ruin's harvesting, the death of Tindwyl, and the Ascension of Sazed), all Feruchemists were "full" Feruchemists. You were either one, or were not. Ferrings and Twinborn (with just one metal's Feruchemy) exist post-Catacendre specifically due to the admixture of the genes for Feruchemy and Allomancy. There aren't even any "natural born Mistborn" on Scadrial in Era 2, since the passing of Spook/Lestibournes, was also "twiddled" by divine intervention (Harmony) to upgrade from Tineye to becoming the Lord Mistborn. It's very, very unlikely, but eventually another Mistborn could be born (probably descended from Spook) - and apparently will be, for the Era 3 storylines (just one person, after like 300 years). It's very, very unlikely, but eventually a full Feruchemist could arise in the Terris Village. But it wouldn't likely be from Ferring stock, as that would include Allomancy genes. Their "breeding for a full Feruchemist" would have to be seeing who the "pure Terris" ancestors were of a Ferring, and matching them up with other people like that. To create another living Lord Ruler type person, with both Feruchemy and Allomancy for all metals in one person, without equipment, would require some level of "divine injection": either a recreated Full Feruchemist who ingests lerasium, or some Act of Harmony that massively upgrades someone directly. Marsh is the closest thing to a "Fullborn" these days, what with all his spikes for metals of many of both powers, and a "classical" ability to Compound with hemalurgically derived powers that appears to have been lost in Era 2.

Nitpick: that really, definitely

I like to think that TLR would show up in a mask at random balls, turning off his mega-Soothing while claiming to be a Lord... uh, Shekar from some outer Dominance, and everybody would have to pretend to be fooled. Except for that one guy who actually was fooled, and acted/talked badly around him like he was some bumpkin nobleman he'd never seen or heard of before, and made fun of his unusual accent. Everybody waited to see the guy get wasted, but instead they became great friends, because Rashek found he liked that could actually be himself around that guy - go hiking, jam with him while playing the flute, etc., ...Until eventually the secrets came out that tore them apart. It was over a woman, of course. Her name was Lutha. She lived on the second floor.

Lezian himself wondered why he was reborn so quickly, in a way that Odium (Rayse) had discontinued - "I was on Braize for barely a day before I felt the pull" - only to be told things were Under New Management and the new Odium had "made an exception". If he had spent a day on Braize ("barely a day" is not "less than a day"), then this interlude is happening one day after Lezian was killed by Kaladin. And then, El tells him: "When we said we did not want to have to wait for your rebirth [via the next Everstorm], it was not your convenience that troubled us, but mine. I am very curious, you see, and you were the sole appropriate subject." El speaks there in the first person, not first person plural, as he did initially. The "we" in "we did not want to have to wait [for the Everstorm]" is El and Odium, but this test is for El's curiosity and convenience, not Odium's. What's the rush? Well, the obvious thing is: the Contest of Champions. It will occur in ten days after Taravangian's Ascension - which happened on the same day as Navani's bonding the Sibling and Kaladin swearing the Fourth Ideal, right? So if it's the next day, the Contest is now nine days away. Maybe less, since the time was set "at the tenth hour", and who knows what time of day it is in this scene. The Everstorm occurs in roughly nine-day intervals. Though Odium can speed this cycle up, I think, that probably has some limitations, like maybe the current Everstorm is still going around Roshar and has only just passed Urithiru. Whatever made Lezian "the sole appropriate subject" for the test in El's consideration, he wanted it done and confirmed before then.

Oh yeah, and notice that Axindweth, despite having the blood-red gemstone with Ulim inside of it contained in her safehand sleeve, had never simply cracked the gem and released Ulim. She gave it to Venli after sussing her out as to her attitude and temperament to finding "forms of power", and then instructed her to release the spren during a highstorm. Just as the Fused appear to require a human to gem-trap a Herald's soul, perhaps only a singer/listener could release the gem-trapped voidspren?

I doubt such a momentous event as one of the climactic moments of Oathbringer would not be something Brandon had plotted out as a core point from early on - he's not a "discovery" writer. So the fact that a Herald could be "perma-killed" that way, yet it had never happened in any prior Desolation but the Final one, is no accident. Consider: this was the first time Odium has had direct minions on Roshar since the breaking of the Oathpact after the so-called Aharietiam. Since then, there had only the "False Desolation" engendered not by Odium and involving his Fused, but by Ba-Ado-Mishram stepping up and giving "forms of power" (Regals) to singers, that ended with BAM in a gem and the mindbombing of all but the "Last Legion" of "listeners". So one might conclude that Jezrien having given up his Honorblade and forsworn his Oaths has something to do with his being susceptible to the Raysium dagger. But Odium wasn't able to manifest on Roshar enough to drop Raysium, nor to get a minion he could communicate with directly (Fused or sentient Voidspren like Ulim), until enough of the listeners took stormform and called for the Everstorm: as Ulim put it when Venli freed him, "that stupid Herald is still standing strong all these years later. We have to work around him." The Everstorm is something envisioned by a dying Honor, as he mentions it in one of his pre-recorded visions to Dalinar, which was recorded AFTER both the Heralds forswearing, and the Recreance of the Knights Radiant. That's also something that had never happened before, and thus is likely one of the "things Odium can start to push through when the Oathpact has worn thin enough". Even so, they still had to get Moash, a human, to do it: the Fused who gave him the dagger and then watched the execution were described as seemingly "not daring to do the deed themselves". Finally, we don't entirely know what the terms of the Oathpact were, except that Odium is bound by it to remain in the Rosharan system even after the Splintering of Honor, and that Odium was still unable to start the Everstorm without human assistance (Ulim was brought in a gem through some kind of barrier and given to Venli by a mysterious Terriswoman named Axindweth, apparently a Ghostblood since she was chased off by "another of her kind" (Terris Feruchemist) in Gereh who was hunted/killed by Mraize, who had also facilitated bringing across the stormspren to Roshar in gems). Hmm, maybe that last bit is part of the reason for the Everstorm. It could always have been a way to "work around" the Oathpact, except it would need help from worldhoppers putting voidspren in gems in Shadesmar and pulling them across to the Physical Realm on Roshar, which until now didn't exist (presumably the Ghostbloods have a specific reason for wanting to start this True Desolation)?

What I meant was, if the Steel Ministry knew about atium (overtly/publicly) and electrum (privately), what was the point of the latter knowledge if they didn't also know about electrum Mistings, even if the knowledge that they were equivalent were kept secret by TLR? Anyway, this is all a retcon, so we're discussing the plausibility or smoothness of the retcon more than anything else, haha. It is what it is. I mean, electrum is already an alloy of gold, so having atium "always having really been pure atium + electrum" just makes malatium even more weird. So it's an alloy of pure atium and... an alloy? So is that alloy, like, more gold or less percent gold than the electrum alloy in Pits-atium? My personal headcanon "fix" to "how come atium isn't burnable by anybody if it's a god metal" was that lerasium is, in fact, the only "god metal" that can be Allomantically burned, because it grants Allomancy in the first place. We already know most metals are "Allomantically inert" and only the right purity of metal or alloy works with the powers, so, why should god metals be any different? Atium shouldn't be burnable by Allomancers, I mean it's the body of Ruin that is the direct opposite to Preservation's power. Made sense that Leras had to twist things around to enable atium Mistings, and that that could/would be undone by Harmony - the magic derived of Preservation's power being fixed as "these eight metals and paired alloys do these things, being keys that grant access to filtered Investiture derived of Preservation, and most people can access only one metal or alloy, unless you can use all of them, but there are still only sixteen of them". Which would mean that the FAQ (with RAFO) of "could a Mistborn pick up a chip of an Honorblade or a Raysium dagger and burn it?" would have the easy answer of "no, why would it be a burnable metal?" But evidently that is not where things went / are going, I guess!

The problem with that, though, is that electrum WAS known in the Final Empire - at least to the Steel Ministry - because it's one of the metals The Lord Ruler mentioned on a storage cavern steel plate (mentioned as the one in Urteau), which is how Vin and Co. learned about it in the first place. In fact, malatium was also mentioned on a Steel Ministry plate, the one in Vetitian, the city where Elend rescued "Lord" Fatren's people from an assault of koloss to open The Hero of Ages. Of course maybe even the Steel Ministry didn't realize burning atium and electrum were the same Allomantic power - maybe TLR kept that tidbit to himself? There were also quite a few WoBs over many years about how the Ministry detected and recruited Seers and kept them secret, I guess those all go out the window per this later WoB (by proxy)?

Wow, I had not seen that second retcon WoB. (Well, "WoP" but as the Mouth of Brandon, haha.) It's a bit unsatisfactory, though, as we do see Elend and Vin both burning electrum "the normal way" (as an alloy of gold), calling it "poor man's atium" in that it enabled shielding from an atium burner, but did not enable the "see what another person will do" feature against a non-atium burner. Both of who were well familiar with burning "regular" FE atium. Or are you saying, atium Mistings were simply Electrum Mistings, but that Electrum Mistings could burn "regular" (and more easily accessible) electrum as well as the atium+electrum "alloy" that was beaded up at the Pits? I guess that does make some sense, atium providing the "godly" aspect seeing another person's future, and of course only available in that alloy per Leras' dictum.

In addition, it's heavily implied by a few scenes as early as in AoL that the "slight Hemalurgic charge" residual in the earring Wax wore, that was made from a former Inquisitor spike, was a spike for A-pewter, as Harmony's mists are able to fuel an Allomantic reaction in him while he wore it that is extremely similar (identical) to the effect of unconsciously burning pewter, even though Wax hadn't ingested any.

They were always "false" entries on the Allomantic table, anyway - where that table is a shorthand for "all naturally occuring Allomantic powers", one interpretation of which is to say, "Mistings exist for this metal". The idea (can't remember where I read/saw it, though) is that part of Leras' "trick" was to modify the behavior of Allomancy so that there would be such a thing as an atium Misting (Seers like Yomen and Demoux), with the extra duration of mistsickness in producing them as the "hint" that This Metal You Can Burn Now Is Special. That bumped some other metal off the Table in order to accommodate that hint, since there had to be sixteen types of Mistings for the hint to work, which was rooted in that "number of power". (And perhaps, also requiring a necessary paired Misting to burn a designated alloy, "malatium", that we never saw.) That insertion of atium into the Allomantic Table was then undone by Harmony, so that the "two metals" unknown to Era 1 that he alluded to in his note to Spook were restored to Cadmium and Chromium, along with their alloys Bendalloy and Nicrosil, which generate their proper set of Mistings in Era 2. There are no more atium Mistings after Harmony's Ascension, and no more "malatium" Mistings, either (assuming there ever were). It's also a minor retcon, BTW, that what the Final Empire called "atium" was never the "pure god-metal and body of Ruin", which should have been equally as universally usable as lerasium would be, but rather an alloy composed of "pure" atium alloyed with a bit of electrum as part of the process that Leras set up to "precipitate" that Investiture as geode-wrapped atium beads at the Pits of Hathsin.

I ran it through a simulation and this is what happened. I suspect it's pretty accurate.