robardin

Well, the way the Fourth Ideal of Crusade was presented to him by Nale when commissioned, was that his spren was to be the arbiter as to if/when he had satisifed it. So perhaps it was the opposite: after hearing Nale’s description and admission about how “the corruption of the shamans” was really Ishar, and seeing how Szeth was struggling against Ishar’s last challenge without fighting back (which he had just sworn he was done with), 12124 sympathized/identified enough with Szeth’s dedication to his decision not to kill any more that he wordlessly gave him a pass on the Fourth Ideal, just as he was surging so powerfully to the Fifth Ideal. In fact Szeth being so strongly in line with the Fifth Ideal could even have been a kind of “mental pressure” on his highspren to unblock the Fourth Ideal for him, so to speak! And obviously, 12124’s time with Kaladin’s influence on Szeth (and seeing how it also helped/affected Nale) surely made it easier for him to bond with Sigzil later as Auxiliary, becoming close to a Windrunner/Skybreaker hybrid.

That’s where I suggested the difference was in the “donor”. The traditional metal spikes for hemalurgy required two things: Intent when spiking someone, to make a hemalurgic spike, and the right metal to “rip out” the right Investiture from the victim/donor. Not necessarily a “magic power” like Allomancy or Feruchemy, but also just properties of being human or being conscious (ordinary humans were used to make koloss or kandra spikes). Ruin called that “his power”. I agree that what we see with the crystalline spikes that glow in Vyre’s eyes seem like “same principle, different implementation”, but to me that’s just hemalurgy with a different flavor. The “Principle of Hemalurgy” (anyone can make a spike of right material with Intent while it pulls in Donor Investiture, then stick it into the right place into Recipient to Do Something Magical) could be considered Ruin’s power, where what we saw in Mistborn was simply based on needing metal spikes to draw out the powers of the Metallic Arts, and sufficient to do things like create koloss and kandra. Crystal spikes where the “Donor Investiture” came from something like Voidspren is what I’m thinking went on with Vyre. Also, Vyre has more than just two spikes driven all the way through to the back of his head. The crystals also jut out to the side a bit, giving it a look of a “crown of crystals”, albeit one that’s embedded in his skull at eye level instead of resting on his brow. Reminiscent of what happened with Amaram after he took in Yelig-Nar. So definitely a kind of fusion of magics going on.

Taln’s return from Braize was the natural outcome of Chana (Shallan’s mother) returning there as well, and SHE was the one that broke to return the both of them. Since that happened several years after Shallan’s mother was killed, I guess that means Chana held out and/or avoided capture on Braize for that long. But yeah, how could his Honorblade be “switched out” if he was still bonded to it? That’s still a question I’d have for Brandon: who and how could convince Crazy Taln at the gates of Kholinar to unbond his Blade? I guess while he was catatonic he might never have summoned it, like that never happened? But then, when he came around at the very end to rampage through some Fused — OK, through a LOT of Fused — at Azimir, that’s when you’d think he might have summoned it, if he could have done. (And used his Stoneward Surges!) Unless he wasn’t actually “recovered” to sanity, but just triggered enough to go from Mantra Mode into Beast Mode. As for Ishar not “foreseeing” Kaladin: I think that means with respect to his plans for Szeth and using him to replace Jezrien in a new Oathpact, except Crazy Ishar imagined it as a semi-Odium kind of pact where the New Heralds would lead his version of Fused — spren made physical, or else people like he made the Honorbearers into, eternally recycled expert fighters — to fight against not just Team Odium, but to expand the fight into the wider cosmere (as Nale descried Ishar’s plans, “Trying to build an army of physical spren and Fused, preparing for far-distant conflicts”). All the moving pieces for that, involved the Shin shamans, Szeth’s family, or more broadly, a general “use of a Truthless with an Honorblade to kill people” in the East that was going to harden Szeth into the ultimate warrior. He didn’t expect Kaladin to come with Szeth as a “therapist”. And even if Ishar had been using some Spiritual Realm based foresight at times, that would have been hard to foresee because it was something the Wind insisted that Kaladin agree to do. Mostly likely, most versions of Kaladin would have insisted on staying at Urithiru for the upcoming Contest of Champions, and then to fight with the Windrunners at one of the points of conflict, either the Shattered Plains or Azimir. I don’t think we need more “explanation” about the stream of spren than we got. It’s best left to our own imaginations to fill in the exact mechanisms. The overall point was that, the Wind (and all other spren) sensed their impending doom (erasure from Roshar), and that avoiding that doom hung upon events centered at that location in Shinovar, where the Connection between Aharietiam required the forsworn Heralds to be in order to reclaim their Honorblades and Connection to Honor to be able to do the New Oathpact.

As a gold Compounder, Miles was just constantly tapping gold, non-stop. So he'd heal as soon as the beginning of the head injury/blow occurred that would otherwise knock him unconscious. TLR probably had something similar going on. So much constant tapping of a goldmind that they were actually savant in it, whatever that results in. A "regular" Feruchemist, even a full one, could only tap whatever they stored in it, and thus would be accustomed to tapping at need, like Sazed and Wayne. Which requires being conscious. Which means, a really quick path to unconsciousness (and especially a surprising one, as in self-inflicted) could get by. Yes, with southern Scadrian "Excisor" technology that the GBs surely had access to, they could create unkeyed goldminds filled externally, like Kelesina's Really Invested Bracelet that Wayne ended up using for a while. But even that didn't save Kelesina in time before it was taken off of her momentarily "killed" body, and then shot in the head again, because "prepackaged and really filled-up goldmind" is still not an "essentially infinitely available goldmind" that allows for constant tapping.

I doubt Odium would need Dova/Battah's experiments to discover what could be done with this, though It's got to be some variant of hemalurgy, which is another Shard's power/magic

Yeah, I didn't view it so much as a "skip over" for Szeth to swear the Fifth Ideal as that he was doing a kind of "double jump". And poor, poor 12124/Aux. Befriending Kal and Syl, then losing them to Heraldhood; learning/growing with Szeth, only to be cut loose and rejected; and from TSM we know what ultimately ends up happening to him with Sigzil. Brandon. How could you!

Yeah, and just like seeing Shardblades inspired some of the visiting Five Scholars from Nalthis to go home and create Nightblood, I'm guessing Battah/Dova ran into Marsh or read/saw something about him somehow. Hemalurgy per se is called one of the Metallic Arts, in that its effects as known to Scadrians differ based on the metal used as well as the bind points, and that creating a spike requires Intent while "tearing off" Investiture from the donor... but of course, it could be that the expression of hemalurgy through metal is just how Investiture is filtered on Scadrial due to some interplay of Preservation, explaining why Allomancy (purely of Preservation) is all about net-positive Investiture through metal, and the "balanced" Art of Feruchemy all about GIGO in metal. Vyre's crystal spiked eyes were glowing with Voidlight, so perhaps they're acting as a repository for some "donor voidspren" in there that then grants him the ability to see Investiture the way an Inquisitor sees the "lines of blue" of metal?

The Blackthorn that Retribution discovers at the end of WaT is a kind of "spren of the Blackthorn", built around all the terrifying images of his fearsome and bloody reputation in the wars of his youth (remember how Queen Fen, the Azish, and even the Mink speak of him when first meeting him). Combined with the extra Investiture and Identity that Dalinar as Bondsmith imparted to the vision-version of himself at The Rift, when he was in Peak Blackthorn mode you might say, full of the Thrill, when he Connected to the vision-version and gave him his memories (similar to how Tanavast gave his memories to the Stormfather, but yet not "become" or "merged with" the Stormfather). And so that Blackthorn-spren-come-alive knows what Dalinar knew (I suppose that includes the True History of Roshar), but rejects his choices. The version of Dalinar that Odium, and Taravangian, wanted to make use of all along. Once a spren gains sentience and identity, though, I don't think the way people think about it will change it further. That's why so many spren, Radiant and Voidspren alike, have ancient forms: Syl mentions ancient spren who have "more than two genders because they weren't imagined (originally) by humans" (referring to singers having four). Also why Venli was irritated that Ulim the Voidspren looked human, because he dates back to Ashyn, or Alaswha, when humans first Connected to Odium for Surges. And besides, Retribution will surely elevate this Blackthorn-spren to the level of an Unmade.

I like that take, but there's another practical one: Odium would have needed time to really mold Gavinor's hatred of Dalinar. Surely not 12-15 years of molding, you say? OK, that's the emotional side, but remember, Gavinor would have to view himself as being able to defeat Dalinar in single combat to agree to be Odium's champion as well (hatred doesn't mean "I want to suicide by Shard Duel To The Death where I'm clearly outclassed"). Yes, it turned out he was always just an emotional pawn for Taravangian's game plan, who froze him in place during the duel after only a few minutes to make him a sacrificial dummy target. But Gavinor couldn't know that, as the role was specified by contract to be assumed by a "willing champion". 18 years old or so is probably the minimum age for Gavinor to have been groomed to focus his hatred on Dalinar (and not Moash... Or maybe that's still there too... And Moash is still out there), trained with Shards, and developed enough physically to look in the mirror and say, "Yes, I think I beat the somewhat over-the-hill Blackthorn in single combat to the death." I assume we'll see Gavinor in the back five. He's presumably going to spend the next ten years in the cocooned Urithiru, after having his life saved by the very man he was raised to hate and to kill, isolated from the touch of Odium/Retribution, and with access to the book Oathbringer. I wouldn't be surprised if he were an even more dangerous fighter than prime Dalinar, or Adolin, as I'm guessing part of his training in the SR would have been to spar against vision-simulacra of Dalinar.

But Kaladin said the reason Szeth should not become a Herald was that the purpose of the Heralds was to fight (and to kill), and Szeth deserved to be able to stop doing that. What will they fight and kill if they come back when there is LESS or no threat to what their New Oathpact is protecting? And listeners/singers needed to take in a spren to their gemheart in a highstorm to change into other forms. Now what? Stand out in the everstorm at midnight (when their spheres infuse with warlight via petition to Retribution)?

Ah, you mean Nalthian caravaneers. I was thinking of the fact that Nalthis was already kind of a nexus for interplanetary trade via Shadesmar, even having a "customs office" of sorts at their Perpendicularity, and how a flood of Rosharan spren suddenly able to travel the cosmere might affect that. Exactly because spren don't need to eat or sleep, though, invites the question as to why they would engage in trade like that. I think for the most part they'll stay in or close to the spren cities (like Lasting Integrity) that they've had long established in the area around Roshar, as long as they feel safe (i.e., New Oathpact guards them from being "Retributioned"). If that's the main concern, after all, I doubt fleeing to another planet would help. I'm thinking Retribution would have enough Connection to all the spren of Roshar to absorb them through the Spiritual Realm regardless of their physical (or cognitive) locations. So mainly, I would expect spren to be traveling the cosmere more out of curiosity than anything else: for the novelty of it, or because (like "12124") they have been rejected or cast out in some way by their own kind. Notum might have fit this description, were he not now "stuck" with Adolin and Co. in Azimir.

I agree with another poster that he probably "cancelled" Taravangian actually being able to destroy his family and Adrotagia along with Kharbranth, and him putting them into a vision bubble in the Spiritual Realm as living humans in the semi-epilogue represents that "character's takeback" from the original plotline.

Nohadon was a real, living man on Roshar who died and had written The Way of Kings, as Tanavast recalls in Ch. 122: Which is interesting as it suggests Honor had the ability to grant immortality, aside from having created the Heralds (and Nohadon being long after the Oathpact). That said, the recurring visions that Dalinar has of him may be using Nohadon as an avatar. Whether Cultivation, a fragment of Adonalsium, or some other interested party.

Wow. I thought that was actually perfectly done, because everything Taravangian pulled up and threw back in Jasnah' face were EXACTLY the things she'd said, done, or suggested that raised my eyebrows in the past. And before he did that, he got her to verbally state or to reaffirm the moral ideals she espoused, or were promoting, that contradicted those actions. And the capstone playback of her replying to Wit saying they couldn't "unleash [Odium] on the cosmere" by agreeing to set him free if he left Roshar alone, with "Sometimes, you have to think of yourself first." She had truly dug her own grave there. He could also have pulled out, had this meeting involved Venli or Thude from the listeners, the fact that Jasnah had once pointed out that one way to defeat the Everstorm was to kill every single singer/listener on Roshar so there could be no more hosts for the Fused, which horrified Kaladin, but she considered only a logical position (even if she were not actively pushing for it, that it should be on the table). It highlighted in every way why Taravangian, ruthless and insightful and intelligent, was and is such a terrifying Odium. (And now, Retribution.)

Here's my biggest question after finishing WaT: So at the end, the ten New Heralds (nine "classic" plus the newly inducted Kaladin, with Nale and him having "+1"s in their bonded spren) are now ... on Braize, the planet with a raysium (?) core that attracts Investiture? But their minds are in the SR in a "vision" of a beach house resort or something (pulled from a memory of Ishar's old timeshare back on good ol' Alaswha before its burning, I guess). Until such time as they Return again... which would be triggered how? There are going to be Fused souls on Braize, like Abidi's, who hadn't yet had time to get back to Roshar via the Everstorm. Are they motivated to torture them any more, other than for fun? They don't need to "break" Heralds to Return themselves. Besides, in contrast to the original Oathpact, which formed a cage or lock around the Fused on returning from Braize (no longer meaningful with the Everstorm), the New Oathpact forms a protective mesh cage around the spren of Roshar from being "inhaled" (unmade, for their Investiture) by Retribution. In which case, what is it that would cause, or to pull, the New Heralds to Return to Roshar? Would it be something spren related? And, my sneaky observation: Battah, while "corrupted" and having become a materialistic ardent in Kharbranth, had discovered a way to create crystal spikes that function very similarly to Inquisitor eye-spikes in Mistborn (particularly interesting, as hemalurgy has always been called a Metallic Art). In giving Vyre such spikes, she extracted a promise from Odium of "a planet -- a small one, at least" in return for her service to Him. And then while taking her place in the New Oathpact while reclaiming her old Honorblade, she is the last to arrive: The very last was a woman with a shaved head, a curious expression on her face. Curious and hard to pin down indeed, because how often would Kaladin have seen the face of someone reminded on her way to the Oathening that they are still on retainer in exchange for a small planet?

Right, I forgot the bubble wasn't a figurative "dome of light" but physically and literally glowing crystal. I wonder if Urithiru is itself location bound on Roshar any more? Like, maybe in the future Urithiru becomes a floating city in space or something. Wow!

Adolin enjoying the sun breaking out over Azimir -- precisely its borders -- while seeing that the new Everstorm covers nearly the entire rest of Roshar without ever moving or dissipating... That was epic, but also kind of interesting to consider from the POV of the singers/Fused and all the other people who swung over to Team Odium. How do they feel about never seeing the sun?

Axindweth: I found it interesting that Axindweth was called a "full Feruchemist" by Zahel, which term means he knows that most Feruchemists of that time in the Cosmere would be Ferrings. So how that is, is the real mystery indeed! As for her being dead, she was captured after knocking herself unconscious while trying to capture Lift in the aluminum-lined room inside Urithiru by unexpectedly hitting a Slick patch and crashing into the wall while having tapped a steelmind for speed. I guess that happened too quickly even for her to tap gold to recover, which is something we somehow never saw in Mistborn, LOL. Which means she's alive, but trapped in Urithiru with the rest of its occupants as without any functioning Oathgate, their only way out is to physically climb down the mountain. I suppose a full Feruchemist could fill an ironmind as much as possible and basically float like a leaf down to the ground, but then what? She'd also be stuck on Roshar, until such time as the listeners reveal (and possibly monetize) their access to Retribution's Shardpool to reach Shadesmar, or unless the Ghostbloods have a non-Perpendicularity way of extracting her. Radiant Oaths post-Retribution: Well, all the spren were saved from being inhaled by Retribution by the New Oathpact, and we can see from TSM that Sigzil will eventually bond 12124 "Aux" and reach at least the Fourth Ideal to gain Plate (which he had not done as a Windrunner), so yeah Radiant oaths will still happen. But Surgebinding and Radiant healing abilities would need some other way to power them than easily accessed and inhaled Stormlight. Nightwatcher: dead? Nah, she's also a spren protected by the New Oathpact, no reason she wouldn't be. And that's interesting because she is kind of a Splinter of Cultivation left on Roshar. I'm sure that's going to play into the back five of Stormlight Archives. Cognitive Realm economy? Not sure what you mean about "Nalthis can't compete against spren". Rosharan spren now able to leave the system (their having been bound to the Rosharan system having been a side effect of the original Oathpact), and yes that means some of them could end up on Nalthis, but what's the economic impact of that? Maybe some spren could gain Breaths and do something interesting? Or if an Awakener discovers how to fuel Surgebinding with Breath? Roshar food crisis sans Soulcasters? Well, Soulcast food was mainly a critical resource not for civilian populations, but for armies to be able to mobilize without worrying about supply lines. The large number of Soulcasters possessed by Alethkar versus other Rosharan nations was a huge reason their armies were so successful, and how their campaign on the Shattered Plains in the middle of nowhere was possible to run indefinitely. And the people in Urithiru can still grow food with Towerlight warmed/fueled farms, as the tower is still alive.

Yeah it's pretty clear that's Aux. And earlier, Nale's highspren even took "12124" to task for being too chummy with his Radiant, after Szeth rejects his oaths right after reacing the Fifth Ideal (!!), saying "I release you from your bond" and that he would go seek out the "dissident" Skybreakers for a different highspren. Since we see Sig as having Plate (if Invested enough) in TSM, and he broke his bonds with Vienta without having reached the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners, I guess he gets to the Skybreakers' 4+ Ideal with Aux before nearly burning him out?

"No Syladin?" Don't be so sure. I mean, they're both basically spren now.... And bonded spren go with the Heralds when they're "locked away" (Nale's highspren too). As for the Dalinar Decision, it's brilliant. I just finished reading last night and haven't caught up on the rest of this thread yet so I won't post on that point until I do, though.

YES and i love the exact wording of that WoB to allow for what you say is one possible interpretation. So, Radiants (and everybody else) in Urithiru are basically stuck there? Without functioning Oathgates, they would have to physically descend and then climb back up the mountain to get to anywhere else on Roshar, or vice versa. And even Windrunners would run out of Investiture in terms of flying down/up after a certain distance from the tower. Fortunately with a living (enough) tower, they can still grow food and whatnot. But man it's going to be interesting.

But he can't just "choose" a Champion, willy-nilly. That champion has to accede to being Odium's Champion. Otherwise Dalinar would still be his Champion, or else his second choice, Kaladin. I guess at this point Nalan would count as a Herald who's acceded to being on Team Odium and thus would be subject to being named Champion, though. Which then raises the question of what qualifies as "death" as a condition of defeat in the "contest to the death": "killing" him on Roshar and sending him to Braize? Or is the Oathpact so broken now that he'd just die a normal death now? Or would some anti-Stormlight dagger be necessary to "kill him like it counts"?

So, something has always felt a little off about what Shallan recalls about killing her mother. She's a matroska level unreliable narrator (that's one of those "Russian nesting dolls") when it comes to her own past, but it's all we've got to go on as readers, and yet... Explain how this at all plausibly hangs together to me? Fact: She bonded a Cryptic as a child -- that's Testament. This is 100% true. Fact: She killed her mother with a Testamentblade; her mumbleth truth to Pattern was admitting she'd killed her mother, with burned out eyes. Suspect: ...and the "Blade" was then "put away in a safe" by her father. What? 90% Fact: Her father was arguing with her mother and another man, an associate of her mother's, about Shallan being "one of THEM" ; her father fought with the man after he pulled a knife, while her mother came at her with the knife after it got dropped in the struggle; her father killed the man, while Shallan killed her mother; and then, her father covered up both deaths by claiming he'd found the two of them having an affair and killing them in jealousy, which apparently was A-OK for a lighteyes of his rank to do in Jah Keved without any further investigation. We know her brothers, who were not present for the conflict, have told the same basic cover story. "Our father killed our mother and her lover in a jealous rage, Shallan was there when it happened and got traumatized." But we DON'T really know that that's exactly went down In The Room Where It Happened. And there are elements to this that don't pass the smell test. I'm going to gloss over the question of how did Lin Davar explain his wife having the burned-out eyes characteristic of Death By Shardblade without having such a weapon himself; I think that was answered somewhere, and I just don't remember? (Can someone remind me, or is that Problem #0?) Problem #1: Lin Davar's behavior regarding his ten year old daughter summoning a Shardblade. As we see later in her life, her father was super keen on "rising in the ranks", and supposedly got access a Soulcaster (from the Ghostbloods) in order to literally generate wealth. Jah Keved as as whole had about twenty Shardblades in the entire kingdom, the second most on Roshar to Alethkar, and they would all be accounted for, not to mention the fact that all dead Blades are of the "giant sword" variety that cannot change shape the way a living one can. Having a Shardblade in his "strongbox", especially of a unknown (and much more concealable) size, should have been of GREAT INTEREST AND VALUE to him. Hand-wavy explanation: I suppose it's possible that he went to check on it later and found it missing, and realized that was because Shallan was still bonded to it (in presumably the normal gemstone way); then when he was unable to get her to summon and then to "unbond" it so he could use it, and in fact acted like it never happened, gave up and just acted like it never existed as long as Shallan did likewise? But also never dared to abuse her the way he did her brothers and the rest of the household, not only out of some special love for her but because, you know, a Shardblade stabby-stab is an insta-kill and she's done it before and then reset, so tip-toe around the Dangerous Girl? That really doesn't hold water to me, but let's move on to... Problem #2: Shallan's mother and her friend knowing about Nahel bonds, and attacking Shallan for forming one. If Shallan's mother and/or her "male friend visitor" were Skybreakers working with Nale to kill nascent Surgebinders of other orders, how did they expect to do that on their own? Because if you know about Surgebinders, you definitely know that they can heal with Stormlight, and will even unconsciously do so in self-preservation, as Kaladin did before even being aware of his Surges. It took Nale using a Shardblade to kill Ym, to prepare to execute Lift before Yanagawn pardoned her, and then to use on the Stump. Even though none of them were past the Second Ideal yet, probably not past the First. Yet, this man, and then Shallan's mother, brought the proverbial knife to a Shardfight? Like, a regular one? And expected to kill a Surgebinder with it? No way, right? And it can't be that the man was himself a Skybreaker of the 3+ Ideal who had summoned a Shardknife, one that kept its form while Shallan's mother picked it up to use. Because ordinary Lin Davar is not overpowering and then killing a Radiant of the Third Ideal unless that Radiant is faking it.

It could be how the fabrial worked in Heathstone that ran on Voidlight and suppressed Radiant Surgebinding and Shard summoning, while allowing Lezian to use his Fused Surge of Transportation. Like, the same fabrial fed Stormlight maybe suppresses the Fused and not the Radiants?

I don't think you have to spoiler quotes from RoW, especially in a Spoiler forum about WaT preview chapters, LOL. That said, I thought that meant being able to move Voidlight from gem to gem, yes. But externally, like in fabrial creation. I don't think that means she can infuse with Voidlight after gaining a Nahel bond, never really thought about that.