robardin

Eh, to the extent that a baker in Elendel in Era 2 could actually have any atium left over from before the Catacendre, it would be as it was known/harvested from geodes at the Pits of Hathsin, which we have WoBs as actually being an alloy of pure atium and electrum. Which was not useable "by anyone" like a full godmetal might, but only by full Mistborn, by Marsh the Last Inquisitor, and a surviving Seer Misting like Demoux. That apparent retcon, that "atium" as known in the Final Empire was not "pure godmetal", actually explains a bunch of things: (a) how Preservation could create a "precipitation cycle" around another Shard's Investiture as godmetal (he couldn't; but COULD bind it to a metal that he DID have power over, electrum); (b) why atium granted "future sight" at a godlike level (it's similar to what electrum grants an Allomancer, and also why burning electrum interferes with atium); (c) how Preservation could make Mistings to burn so-called atium (a modification of the Allomantic Table that Harmony later reversed and restored). But Marsh would have shaken him down long ago for that stuff. 100% it's fake and some kind of "brand name" for shiny edible metal flakes on pastries, LOL.

That's what I thought at first, too, but we have seen that Shards can "intercept" souls on their way to the Beyond, while still in the Cognitive Realm, and do things like Return them like Endowment does, rehouse them liked Odium did with the Fused, put them into a regenerative cycle like Honor did with the Heralds, etc., etc. Normally such a thing requires Intent from the person in question; in Warbreaker, we see that Endowment offers Stennimar the choice to Return as "Lightsong" while in the CR, and of course the Fused and Heralds willingly bound themselves to Odium and to Honor respectively. But at the end of WaT, we see that Retribution "seized" Dalinar's soul as it lingered in the CR, and should have had the same ability to make him a Fused or an Unmade, "for Dalinar Kholin was an oathbreaker... His broken oaths put his soul in Taravangian's hands". Oaths he had sworn to both Odium in the contract for the Contest, and of course the Ideals he had sworn and forsworn as Bondsmith in bonding the Stormfather, now the Splinter of Honor. In the Cosmere, oaths to and from Shards have power: it's the same underlying reason that Rayse had said he could not break his word, because it would weaken him in such a way as to get him killed by other Shards. It's not like Taravangian "wondered" if he could torture Dalinar for eternity, or make him into an Unmade or a Fused: he knew he could, or thought he knew. Yet it was "the powers", the two Shards he bore that still echoed separately in him, that told him that Dalinar "was claimed by another" as his soul slipped away. It didn't just "go to the Beyond" in a natural flow; it was claimed. To me, this speaks of another aspect of the powers of the Shards and how they interact with each other: there is a priority queue. Yes, both the Shards of Honor and Odium and thus Retribution have a clear claim on Dalinar's soul, but this was "trumped" by another, earlier, deeper claim from another Shard. That speaks of his visit to Cultivation and the "pruning" he received, after giving his assent. Both are supposed to be permanent, changes made to his very soul, yet he has recovered his memories of Evi (his supposed "curse"), and the "boon" he originally asked for was "to be forgiven". The Nightwatcher correctly objected, "Forgiveness is no boon." At which point Cultivation herself interceded, saying, "THIS BOON IS BEYOND YOU." And after considering what Dalinar was asking for, the boon she offered to him -- consider the wording precisely! -- was: The memories of Evi that were taken and grew back eventually, were only PART of the cost, not the entire cost. While Cultivation claimed "a part of Dalinar", and in my view retained the claim as the rest of the cost.

I'm also wondering how "Spiritual Realm echo" of Blackthorn Dalinar From The Rift could be manifested in the Physical Realm. The "original" Dalinar has died, left a corpse shielding a now-grown Gavinor atop Urithiru... And we saw that Retribution can easily manifest inside Urithiru, despite it being cocooned now by the Sibling (as he appeared in Lirin's examination room in order to vaporize Hoid "in person"). So Option Number One, he "staples" the Blackthorn Echo to the body of Original Dalinar, kind of like what Endowment does with the Returned on Nalthis. Option Number Two, he has to find a "housing" for Blackthorn the way the Fused need a willing singer/listener host. I suppose that would have to be a human? Option Number Three, he "Heraldizes" the Blackthorn somehow, such that he can incorporate physically entirely with Investiture. How this works without this version EVER having a "starter physical body" is questionable, though I suppose you could say that the Blackthorn DID used to have Dalinar's body, as in up to the events of the Rift, or something?

Whoah... You mean... Like they're backed up in the cloud that is the "timeless" Spiritual Realm and can be downloaded multiple times (like the Honorvisions)! What I was imagining, was more that two half-Hoids would confront the other to claim the other half of the Breath store, then realize the only solution was to do either (but not both) of the "restore from backup" options, then for both of them to kill themselves, to do a "Hoid branch merge", allowing the regrown Hoid to be the only one standing. Or at least, that's the principle of it. Because each clone is also aware that if he the other clone killed himself, he could just hang back and let the released Breath attach to him as the "sole living Hoid". Hahaha.

Well, first we have to consider how it is that Hoid's memory-storage Breath managed to transfer from his vaporized original body in Urithiru, to attach to his regrown body on Scadrial (as the Hoid we see talking to Ulaam is not freaking out that they're gone). I guess unlike a scarf with Breath stuffed into it, where the Breath is gone if you destroy the object, for a living person the Breath is glommed onto something Spiritual, or at least Cognitive? But then, if Hoid ended up forking himself off into two Hoids (an idea which I love), well, which one got the Breath would be a tip as to who the Cosmere considered the "real" one! And the no-Breath Hoid would be very upset. Or, if each got half of the Breath store, that'd be a clue to both of them that they aren't the "full" Hoid, and we'd see the two of them have a There Can Be Only One type showdown to get the Breath from the other one. And then it turns out both of them are also unable to hurt the other one. Ha!

I thought The Wind was telegraphed. Kaladin has always had a special feel for it, and for flying, and several times even very early on, before his Third Ideal, he felt like he was moved by the wind to dodge attacks "even with his eyes closed" (or so it felt to him), as if he were burning atium: on the battlefield when he saved Amaram from the Sharded-up Heleran, and again in the arena when he dropped in to help Adolin and Renarin in the 4-on-1 (then 4-on-2) duel in the arena. That is NOT a Windrunner Thing. We have had Windrunner Combat POVs many times from other characters by now, none of them ever have moments like this. That's the Wind. It's always been the Wind. And we have also had numerous name drops that before Honor and Cultivation arrived to Roshar, the singers worshiped the spren of stone, storm, and wind. And also seen the stones speaking to Venli, showing her visions of those ancient singers using Surges unlike the ten now seen on Roshar. So "the Wind" being a long-muffled and forgotten spren that has some kind of prescient vision power, I would not say that "came out of nowhere". What I found unsatisfactory (in being unexplained) was the implication Wit/Hoid had some kind of premonition that what was being "asked of Kaladin" in sending him to Shinovar would result in him dying, or at least, not returning (and technically he did physically die, leaving a body with burned-out eyes). I can understand if the Wind, as a spren of Adonalsium, has some kind of extra-long-game sense, but what was the deal with Wit being so final with his goodbyes to Kaladin at Urithiru?

So I was thinking about TSM again recently, and re-read all those scenes. Yes, something with the Dawnshard (and probably the reason the Aimians warned that Rysn must never bond a spren when letting her walk off alive with one) "consumed" or mostly destroyed Auxiliary prior to TSM. But, when we see Aux talking to Nomad about what it would take for him "to fly again" while running ahead of the sun, Nomad says he can use the sunheart for power, but Aux points out that it's not Investiture he lacks (the BEUs, as he needs for hopping), but something else that is preventing him from using his Surges and fully summoning his Plate. And that something, is something that Aux can provide/re-create for him, at the cost of using up what remains of his "self" as a highspren (already partly or even mostly gone, as he can no longer communicate except in monotone). What I take that to mean is something about the Nahel bond itself. "I am the leftover strength of oaths sworn" -- well, Nomad hadn't forsworn his bond to Auxiliary the way he had done with Vienta, because he still has a bond to Aux: summoning him as a tool all the time, talking to him, etc., such that Aux can even do Connection tricks for him. And clearly Nomad hadn't really forsworn or broken his past Ideals either, as seen by his Plate spren pushing through at times, when he's particularly agitated about them. No, it's something that somehow, Aux and Nomad both know he could sacrifice of his own "soul" for Nomad to once again fully access his suppressed but not broken Nahel bond, to allow him Surgebinding and Plate again.

I thought WaT was, on its own, a very good book... But this sums up why I feel a bit down. So much of the immersive worldbuilding from the first three books is now completely torn down. Not just in the form of plot developments, e.g., "you never realized what was REALLY going on / the true backstory of the Oathpact!", but, ... Stormfather, highstorms infusing spheres, enabling listener form changes, and driving the entire ecosystem of rockbuds and curling-up plants; will we ever find out more about the giant spindly-legged walkers in highstorms?; Shardbearers with Blade and Plate; ... Heck, the Horneater Peaks losing Cultivation's Perpendicularity is implied to have stranded a large number of Horneaters in Shadesmar (the end of TLM), and maybe the Peaks aren't as warm any more either? As you say, it's "courage" to end all of that, and what leads in to the ultimate convergence of Cosmere worlds/storylines, but it is "smashing something wonderful". Kind of like how Mistborn Era 1 ended the "Final Empire", except that was always presented as kind of a dystopia, but then how "Mistborn Era 2" had no more Mistborn! There are plenty of Roshar rooted mysteries left to explore, wonder about, and look forward to, but re-reading SA 1 through 4 again will feel "nostalgic" now, like re-reading "The Final Empire", eh?

Yeah, that was the point I was raising: how long can he keep this going on? Not from the POV of the people in the Physical Realm; he could dilate time so that this "city in a bottle" in the SR could have barely a day go by, as decades passed in the real world. But any time he dips into the vision to spend time with them in avatar form, posing as human Taravangian, that's one day less he can spend with them as real, mortal people, in "simulated Kharbranth time"; one more grain of sand drops in the hourglass. And how many days can he have like that?

I didn’t think so; In Yumi, With the people from Kharbranth, it was more like what happened with Gavinor, and of course with Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, Rlain, Adolin, Mraize, and Iyatil: they were taken physically (living) into the Spiritual Realm, and could exit still whole and living at some later point, though time dilation is quite possible: It’s the city around the people that is “a fake made of [the Spiritual Realm]”, the way that Our Heroes kept finding little pockets to hide from Odium in the SR by creating visions of past homes — the one in the Physical Realm being destroyed by the waves.

Yes, he definitely sped up time for Gavinor to bring him from like 4 years old to 18 years old in the matter of a day in the Physical Realm. But putting Simulated Kharbranth in an envelope of Slo-Time can’t quite work the same way, because from their perspective, time is still flowing normally but Taravangian is not aging (further) somehow. If Taravangian’s daughter was already being groomed to take the throne, with Taravangian over 70 years old and (supposedly) going “senile but kindly”, won’t she notice that 10-15 years on (in Local Kharbranth time), he’s still around, the same as ever? 20? 25 years? How long could he possibly expect to keep this going? Or does he just keep resetting everybody’s memories?

His own family and the thousands of saved people now populating his SR Simulated Kharbranth might change on him here, too. He’s changed their memories so they don’t remember reports of his death, believe that peace was made with Odium at the cost of never leaving the city, that the missing people in the city had died of some strange disease… All so he can visit in avatar form, sit on the throne, and have his living daughter and grandchildren with him, on his lap, etc. Even if they never start to pull on the threads of that story, won’t they notice that… He doesn’t age? At some point his granddaughter will grow up in the SR just as Gavinor had done, right?

That would be cute, though I don’t think Lopen ever called Kaladin a cousin — he spoke of his (apparently genuinely) cousins from Herdaz to Kaladin, his “gancho”, right? As for Oroden growing up: he will have very vague memories of Kaladin (at best), but wasn’t his family ennobled as House Stormblessed? What that would mean for Alethkar-in-Exile in Urithiru, especially since Oroden is himself darkeyed, but of course that distinction has been eliminated, … well, it could be a mess from a societal POV. But just as Adolin and Renarin are still going to be Adolin and Renarin Kholin, even if there is no particular meaning to a claim on being a highprince of a region of Alethkar, Oroden is going to grow up as “Oroden Stormblessed”, yeah? Now that’s a big name to live up to…!

I was just wondering earlier today now the Shadow of Blackthorn would function without the Thrill, being as it’s trapped in the King’s Drop somewhere (put into an aluminum lock box and thrown into the depths of the sea, presumably off the coast of Thaylenah). But if Honor could form Honorblades via an Oathpact, then it stands to reason Retribution could form Loathebringer with some kind of passionate oath, eh? And part of what it “grants” is a Thrill-like resolve and energy, versus granting Surges? (Chilling thought: the Shadow Blackthorn probably also has the hots for Navani… Eeek)

Yeah, I kind of assumed that Shardblades left in Shadesmar were going to "recover" the way the Unoathed Shards had done, after all Adolin had been bonded to Maya beforehand, but she could well continue to be a very special case. The "Unoathed" Shards that the ten Unoathed in Azimir can use despite not being Radiant, were "lost" Shards that Maya convinced to cross over physically of their own free will -- a state they had reached, being able to do that, by virtue of the freeing of Ba-Ado-Mishram, is how I read it. The inability for ordinary Shardbearers to gem-bond Blades or to repair Plate with Stormlight has to do with the lack of availability of Stormlight now, post-Retribution. The fact that the "Unoathed" Shards can still be summoned and dismissed, and apparently that the Plate still "recovers" (on its own? No feeding of Light?), is very curious.

"... Worship sword?" "No, L'il Wayne, that's not right. Try again." "... Worship sword?" "That's not what I meant by 'try again!' That's not the right answer!" "... Why not?" "... Class dismissed!!"

Well that is kind of the $100,000 question, or should I say, the 100,000 BEU question: where does all that Investiture go? I mean, Nightblood is always leaking and dripping black smoke, which is apparently "corrupted Investiture". And he does reach a point where no more is drawn and he falls into a stupor, like a food coma. But then later, he wakes up, ready to eat more. It gets "digested"??? It's kind of the same question as with Kirby, right?

Well, the default arrangement for a human nation that surrendered or accepted Odium seems to be that the humans are allowed to continue to live somewhat freely, but under Fused/singer rule and domination. We see this from the Dyel Interlude in Iri, where humans are doing better (still running a tea shop) than we saw in the dispossessed shantytowns for humans in Alethkar that Moash was in at first, or even in Hearthstone. Presumably because they surrendered or joined voluntarily, while Alethkar put up a resistance. But Dyel referred to the Fused as "Owners", so clearly they were on top. Thaylenah got "the greatest deal any kingdom or planet will ever get from me", said Taravangian, because he so wanted to prove Jasnah wrong on her own terms ("you've always tried to have it both ways, Jasnah... Protect your own. Then do what is right. In that order"), so they'll be better off than the Iri. However, I'd be surprised if Odium would not install the singers -- former parshmen slaves, plus Regals and Fused -- to being at least the equals, if not in charge, of the humans in Thaylenah. Especially now that he also has taken up Honor. It's what Team Odium was about, first and foremost, supposedly: restoring control Roshar to its native people (which is why the Nale-led Skybreakers went over to them).

What kind of "resistance" could radiant spren, or Radiants, put up against Retribution? I guess if he does leave Roshar in the hands of a regent (presumably El), at the head of the Fused and regals on top of most of Roshar, resistance could be against them... But nothing they can do will bring back Stormlight laden highstorms, functioning Oathgates, or -- wait for it -- a break in the never-ending Everstorm to see the sun again? I could see Adolin deciding to stay long-term in Azimir, being unable to return to Urithiru and not having much reason to go back there anyway, what with his father dead, Navani cocooned, his wife missing in Shadesmar, Kaladin presumed dead, etc., etc. But when he's on a first-name basis with the Prime, do you think he would still need to -- Ah what am I saying, of course he will have to fill out some paperwork. LOL. Szeth will go searching for "dissident" Skybreakers to see if their non-Nale version of the Ideals align with what he's looking for. I'm wondering, if he does find them and bonds another highspren, if he "jumps" to the Fifth Ideal since he's already reached it? I mean, he didn't break his oaths so much as fire his first spren. It does seem like the revived spren of "unoathed" Blades and Plate will be key in communicating via Shadesmar with those inside of Urithiru, we saw that at the end of WaT. Which Azimir now has a lot of, but shouldn't ALL former deadeye Blades and Plate now be sentient like that? Including those captured by the Fused and the singers since the war began (like the ones formerly possessed by Moash, given to him by Kaladin)? Would those Shards still serve the Fused, since they now have volition again? I low-key would like to see a small redemption arc not for Moash (he's too far gone) but for Relis, who yielded in the 4-on-1 arena duel with Adolin (then with Renarin, and then also with Kaladin) after hearing his Blade scream about being killed. Like, if he reunited with his former Blade, but this time, bonding with it as an Unoathed. As for Thaylenah: I'm sure Queen Fen bargained well for good treatment of the humans there. But it's still going to be run by Fused and singers, and still be under the eternal Everstorm, right? Will they trade with Azimir, or allow movement between Azimir and its neighboring states?

In addition, with Nale's disappearance, some of Skybreakers who had sworn to follow Nale personally as their Third Ideal -- though Nale himself did not recommend it to Szeth -- might be "cut loose" from following the dictates of the Singers. After all, even Nale himself admitted he was "rooting for them to lose" because he was still a Herald of Honor and all, and so opposed to them, but just kind of HAD to do what they said because they had the better claim to ruling Roshar. Which does some kind of nuts, and if the only reason these Skybreakers were following suit was because of their Third Ideal oath to do as he did, well he's gone now, eh?

This raises an interesting question: how are the Neo-Heralds going to power their Surges, now that they've reclaimed their oaths and their Blades? They used to have a direct conduit to Honor and didn't need to infuse from spheres of Stormlight, right? Will that be true after the renewed Oathpact? In which case yeah... Taln with Nightblood would be TERRIFYING!

I don't see how news of the New Oathpact could get out, as there were no non-Herald witnesses to it. Szeth was unconscious and Nightblood in an Investiture coma. It would have to be some spren like The Wind to tell people, but as we learned from the epigraph selections of Knights of Wind and Truth, the Wind has not spoken to anyone since. And its author, Szeth's wife, even personally helped Szeth to bury Kaladin's body with burned-out eyes, assuming he had been killed by Ishu before vanishing with the other Heralds and all the Honorblades (well, excepting Jezrien's, which hadn't been there). The only account of what happened with them was from what Nightblood told Szeth, who thought they were ended by Retribution (and their Honorblades subsumed, I suppose):

No, he was definitely using Gravitation at the very least, the Surge he'd be most familiar with after so many years of carrying the Windrunner Blade and then being a Skybreaker, while taking down all the Fused-like Shin Honorbearers with Nightblood after releasing his bond to 12124. He stopped stalling and slid on a Lashing across the ground [this could be sliding via Adhesion, Edgedancer-style, or simply Lashing himself across with Gravitation]. ... Szeth Lashed himself backward -- abruptly -- moving in an unnatural way, to anyone not used to Lashings. ... Szeth landed softly on the stones as a third Blade clanged to the ground at his feet ["landed" = he had been floating, or just did a jump?]

I wondered what that meant, that Nightblood had been talking to the Honorblades, then said he had learned from them how to grant Szeth the Lashings, "and more", as "even a spren can give those". First, the Lashings as we originally learned about them in the prologue to WoK, were the Windrunner terms for Gravitation and Adhesion. Second, when he became a Skybreaker squire and could fly again with Gravitation, Szeth thought of that as a Lashing, and that "while not all of the Lashings were restored to him" (i.e., not Adhension), this was the one that let him into the sky, which is what he had missed the most. Third, Nightblood grants him either the Windrunner Lashings or the Skybreaker Lashings for flight (Gravitation)... But had never talked to Jezrien's Honorblade (with Vyre), or with Nale's (not in the wagon/dismissed by Nale)! Along with the "and more" comment, ...is Szeth effectively like Yelig-Nar, with all ten Surges, except he has to have enough Investiture to keep feeding Nightblood?

So the Diagram including musing like this, on a floorboard: This was done AFTER Gavilar's murder, and so is about realizing that Szeth was a Shinovar Truthless armed with an Honorblade to have done what he did, in which case the Diagram "just" had to figure out who had his Oathstone now and then to go and get it (which is exactly what they did). That's what "crafting a weapon" meant: not the way that Crazy Ishar "crafted" Szeth from shepherd boy to Honorbearer to Truthless-with-Jezrien's-Blade, but turning "Truthless being used as Makkek the gambling den operator's muscle" into "the means by which we will destabilize Roshar by killing most of its rulers Gavilar-style".