Kingsdaughter613

Odium assumed Dalinar would join. Also, the theft as planned would have gone unnoticed. Rysn and the Larkin upset that in grand style!

I’d probably tell you not to envision then. I’d give you paint, and have you close your eyes (or even blindfold, if you’d be okay with that.) Then I’d have you name a color, hand you a brush and tell you to let your hand go where it wants. Alternatively, I’d give you clay and have shut your eyes and let your hands do the work. I’d also put on soothing music. In many ways it’s better for people to create without a specific intent. A lot can come out that way. Art often requires visualization. Art therapy doesn’t. Funny thing is, despite your preference for Cognitive therapies, your descriptions tell me that less cognitive art would be better for you. The more cognitive therapies are often more concrete. At some point, presuming you were my client, I’d do some visualization work with you. I’d probably also do something with light, like painting small bulbs (like Christmas lights) or decorating baubles you can put candles in. This would also be later on. For the first few sessions I’d just focus on removing the need for visualization while utilizing different media.

He may get better with future Oaths.

Jasnah disdaining the arts is probably meaningless - you’d be amazed at how many people are like her. A lot of people stop drawing as children and never pick it up again, so I don’t find her that odd. Navani seems to be rather logical, but her drawings are technical ones. I don’t have the book on me, so I can't really check. Her poetry and glyph art is far more telling, but I really need more examples. I really liked her transforming her emotions into art at the end of WoK. And her Ketek at the end of WoR shows turmoil, but also awe and wonder. So it’s very expressive. I think Navani would be more accurately described as a poet or calligrapher. She sublimates her emotions as a mix of writing and glyph usage. It’s actually really healthy; she’s very well centered. Adolin deals with emotions by using his sword - but he’s a duelist. Dueling is really more like dancing. I think it’s the sparring, and the motions - the kinetic art - that is really at play here. Which actually means his teaching Shallan was actually a form of therapy for him. Hmm... I didn’t put that one together before... I’m wary of saying Shallan has more than DA, which we know she has. She’s pretty old for developing alts (which usually occurs in childhood), it’s usually an unconscious behavior, and she hasn’t had them long. WoB has also called them personas, not alters. Right now I’m going with ‘Shallan sees Veil as not being able to draw and having a simpler existence’ while watching carefully to see how things progress. Shallan continuing to draw concrete, well bordered images is actually a good sign for cohesion. Veil’s drawing keeps those boundary lines, as it’s a cartoon, which is another good sign. I really want art from Radiant. @aemetha Computer art is definitely a thing. I did a whole project on using the Sims build tool with teenagers! Art therapy tends toward the psychoanalytic. If I had to describe my image of the psyche it would probably be swirls of color and light and music. In my head the colors would form words. And... that sounds very artsy. Art therapists are all very insistent that everyone can draw! (Never tell an art therapist anyone is not creative. Cue major lecture.) If I was working with you I’d probably first talk and ask why you feel that way about your art. Then I’d give you a pen and paper and ask you to draw me a stick figure. Though that’s based on what little you just told me. If I was actually working with you I might end up choosing something different. Definitely a permanent type of media though. No erasing!

Oooh. Nice! Great theory, and welcome to the Shard! (Sorry that I can’t upvote; I’ll try to remember when I have them again.)

That’s an interesting thought! I’d love to hear more on it. You clearly know way more about psychological theory than me. My focus is on art as therapy and art as a potential diagnostic tool. And we have no art from Mr. T! Obviously, the next book needs art work samples from all characters. Shallan offers me much more to work with. Her preference for the concrete vs. the surreal implies a need for stability. This is also implied by her preference for charcoal (black on white/stark contrast) as well as her tendency to begin with broad strokes and outlines. The preference for charcoal also implies a fairly stark world view, with some rigidity. Her switch to surrealism can be said to reflect the instability in her life. The way she reacts to the image is telling as well. Veil utilizing a completely different style (it's almost a cartoon!) is very interesting. It shows that Veil is viewed as a different person on an unconscious level. It also shows that Shallan sees herself as the artist, and not her personas. (I really wish we had art from Radiant.) Veil’s utilizing a cartoon is interesting, because cartoons and comics are simplified figures. Shallan tends to view Veil’s life as simpler. Shallan collecting faces keeps the people with her wherever she goes. This could imply several things, such as fear of loss or a need for connection. This is what I came up with at 05:35 off the top of my head. I hope it makes some sense. Basically... I need more people to draw in SA.

I actually thought it might be Dragonsteel, especially with the ‘super big RAFO.’ We did just see some of those chapters released...

Because Art therapy is often focused on the unconscious, and because Jung was a big influence on many art therapists, a lot of art therapists draw heavily from him. Sand tray, which I love, is almost entirely Jungian in theory. Jung’s theories actually sit on the border between psychoanalytic and humanistic in many respects. It’s his theory on the psyche that I’ve always been most drawn to, as it resonates with me tremendously. Other aspects I disagree with, or have been disproven. I also had a strong rapport with a teacher who was a Jungian, so I was influenced in that manner as well. Obviously, not all art therapist focus on the unconscious. But I haven’t really met any cognitive focused ones. (They exist; they just haven't been my teachers.) Most of my training the past few years has focused on using art in different groups and settings. Aside from Jung, only a few others have been more than touched upon. We probably should continue this in PM. Maybe a three way conversation.

WoB confirmed! Yay. For me, I figured it out the moment she said, “like white on black.” Zahel likes that phrase too... I think that was actually the first time Kal sees her.

I’m in art therapy, which really tends to the psychoanalytic and humanistic schools of thought. Though some art therapists are Cognitive in their philosophy there aren’t many. So I haven’t had much experience with it in a while. I was taught that mental illness is caused by a combination of biological and psychological factors. If both are present an appropriate trigger can cause the illness to manifest. In someone else it wouldn’t. So I consider the ‘cause’ to be the first two factors, and the event a trigger. I’ll do more research when I’m more alert. @PhineasGage It might interest you to know that I have worked with people who are suicidal in in-patient psyche. We got on fine and it was a wonderful experience. Real people are very different than characters in books! I also had a good friend who struggled with depression. We drifted apart after high school, which I regret. I still do not have to enjoy reading about characters with that issue; nor do I have to like them. Actually, I generally hate reading about people with psychological disorders. It’s too close to my real life work. When I read I really just want to NOT think about it. Personally, I have a non-verbal learning disability, which manifests similarly to Aspergers. I’ve worked on it all my life. My husband has Aspergers. He’s working on it. My daughter may never have normal brain function. My paternal grandmother has dementia. I’m not exactly unaware or quick to judge people with mental illness. I DO intend to do this for a living and it’s something I’ve dealt with all my life. To clarify: my knee jerk reaction to ANY CHARACTER -not person- whining about their life circumstances causes me to react with ‘what a whimp.’ This is not just Kaladin, and that was prior to his suicide attempt. Kaladin actually has a decent reason, more so than many other characters I’ve read. For the most part I’m actually okay with him, even if he’s not a particular favorite of mine. (The other time I couldn’t stand it was during WoR, but that was due to my husband being somewhat depressed emotionally, if not clinically, because his father was dying. I wanted to be able to NOT deal with that, and Kaladin was being very depressed when I needed him not to be.) But that is an INITIAL reaction, not the final one. And it is NOT the despair and emptiness I react to. It’s actually the way the author writes the thought process that I’m reacting to, not the character him or her self. Once I get to know the character better my impressions change. I rarely experience that feeling on reread. I should have written in past tense. I was describing my reaction when I first read WoK not how I felt reading OB. (Wow, that feels like a lifetime ago, but I still remember it vividly!) I was REALLY unclear, which is totally on me. I’m going to edit my post so that is accurate. I’m not always great at translating what’s in my head into words, especially when tired. And this was compounded by thinking of WoK and how I reacted then as though I was reacting now. When I’m tired I really remember things very vividly; I once watched an entire movie that way in my head. I should probably add so as to avoid future issues: it is 4AM and I can’t sleep because I don’t trust the temp nurse to take care of my daughter. (She almost messed up her vent settings earlier which was terrifying.) So please understand if I’m not always completely clear. I’m exhausted and am trying to stay awake. Argh! This stupid grammar check keeps switching my words and tenses. I am way too tired to catch this. If anyone sees any, let me know and I’ll try to fix it.

Oh, he hated the Germans all his life. He just didn’t let it consume him. @PhineasGageNo, I don’t think Kaladin is a whimp. My issue with him, at least before OB, was that he placed a lot of his misery on his life circumstances. When he was actually acknowledging the depression I liked him much better. I just, in general, REACT to characters whining about their horrible life circumstances in that manner. That does not mean I consider them, or any one else, to actually be a whimp. I will acknowledge that it was a poorly phrased. It is how I react; that does not mean it is accurate. It’s just how I react in general to characters like this, including ones without depression. There is nothing wrong with such a reaction; what’s important is too acknowledge it, recognize the source, and move on by opening yourself up to possibilities beyond the initial reaction. I actually think Kaladin is quite strong as a person, especially considering the lack of therapeutic services. I preferred the way his depression was handled in this book. I REALLY liked him realizing that he’d been feeling depressed before he had ‘reason’ too. I(Yes, I am aware that the first people gassed were the mentally ill. This was in the 1930’s. I actually have researched the Holocaust extensively.) It’s blaming circumstances that I react against, in part because it’s over used. Circumstances may EXCABERATE, or reveal underlying issues and/or stressors. Sometimes they activate certain genetic pathways. But they do not cause them. Trigger, yes, but not the ultimate cause. And it is not an excuse for improper behavior. I don’t find Adolin’s lack of obvious internal conflict boring. He’s not the main character. I actually find it refreshing. It’s so rare characters that quietly manage to work through their issues. I think he’s fine where he is, and the conflict is there, just subtle, which is nice shift from Kaladin and Shallan. But I think how we feel about individual characters is based on personal taste. You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. It was the ‘unrealistic’ part I took issue with. I did not know there was a Survivor archetype. That’s fascinating. As someone who comes from such a family, however, I can assure you we do stupid things. And idiotic, impulsive ones. I think Evi was a survivor, and she gave some of the skill set to her sons. It doesn’t compensate for the underlying personality. Renarin will still have self doubt and Adolin will still be impulsive. But when faced with trauma they will likely manage it better. I’m impulsive. I lose my temper and do stupid things. I’ve still managed to hold myself together despite the past two years. (I’m not getting into it here. Suffice to say, my daughter got really sick and several family members passed away.) I doubt I would have handled it as well as I have without the way I was raised. Archetypes are just that; over riding, primordial constructs of the collective unconsciousness. (I’m a Jungian; if you are not using the Jungian definition please let me know.) Reality is very different. Just as RL heroes are very different than the Heroic archetype, so too are RL Survivors. I know of plenty that did really stupid things that destroyed their families after the war. But they weren’t any less Survivors, as they still managed to reconstruct their lives. I think Adolin and Renarin are Survivors in the same way I am; as children of a refugee, growing up on those stories and absorbing coping mechanisms. That doesn’t make me the person my great grandparents were. But if I’m faced with trauma I’m more likely to react in a way that lets me move on, instead of falling apart.

My point was that Adolin is not unrealistic. Many real life people experience awful things and come out unbowed and unshattered. I was not comparing Kaladin’s life to Adolin’s. I compared it to someone who’s life was much worse as an extreme example to illustrate my point. I keep coming across this idea that if you are not an emotional wreck after a terrible event you are either ‘unbroken’ or ‘unrealistic.’ And since I grew up around people who make 99% of the lives of characters I read about look like a walk in the park I know that neither is true. So this is kind of something that really bothers me. My examples may be extreme, but that’s the point. My grandfather, who went through worse than Kaladin ever did, came out sane and a good, kind person. Adolin, who went through far less, is this not unrealistic for coming through as whole as he did. I think the reason I love Mistborn so much is because the characters, especially in the first book, remind me of my family in their internal strength. I don’t relate nearly as well to the SA crew, the majority of whom lack that kind of strength. (I’m pretty sure Jasnah and Renarin have it, but we haven’t seen enough of them on screen.) I like Adolin and Lift very much however. (Dalinar too, because his issues are not due to his life but his actions.)

For the record, I actually know people like this. I have an aunt who had miscarriage, followed by a stillbirth (and it was her second sb!) and is whole. My daughter almost died at two months and may never be fully well (though I hope she will be), but while I’m still healing I’m far from a broken mess. My infant paternal grandfather and his three year old brother were hidden with a French family during WW2. My grandfather didn’t meet his mother until he was five. His oldest brother - who was only six!- was hidden in a monastery. My great uncle, despite being a child, spent the war getting in trouble for not bowing to a cross. He deliberately got kitchen duty so he could keep Kosher. (You want to talk about unrealistic?! What were you doing at six years old?) My great grandparents hid in an attic during the war. Every. Single. One. of these people came out sane and continued their lives. They even adopted a daughter - the child of a cousin who was murdered. She’s normal too. My paternal grandmother’s parents fled Italy. They climbed the Alps with their young daughter, my great aunt. My great-grandmother was pregnant with my grandmother at the time. Yes, they were normal. My maternal grandfather (who was 16/17) and his younger sisters were deported in 1937 and spent 8 years in hell, thank to the Nazis. One sister got married in the DP camps. My grandfather rebuilt his entire life from scratch. All three started and raised families. And my grandfather was widely known to be a true gentleman and a genuinely kind individual. Did they suffer tremendously? Yes. Whole? No. Broken? Not visibly. (Internally is another story, but not to the extent of Kaladin and Shallan.) My family is one of raised by Holocaust Survivors and we were raised to be survivors. Maybe that’s why we react as we do; accepting pain and sorrow without letting it incapacitate. Maybe we are the strange ones. But people like my family do exist. And so do people like Adolin. Honestly, it’s Kaladin I couldn't stand initially. Every time he started thinking about how ‘horrible’ his life was I think of my grandfather. (Please note this was how I reacted when first reading WoK as an older teen. By the time I reread it I had a much better understanding.) He lost his brother? My grandfather carried his dead brother on his back through a war zone after said brother died immediately AFTER being liberated from Auschwitz. And his baby brother (who was under ten) was gassed with his mother. His father vanished without a trace in Russia after the war. Kaladin had to run a bridge, while getting normal food and actually being paid? See Auschwitz above. You were betrayed by a couple of nobles Kaladin? Try being betrayed by the world, who couldn’t care less when Hitler annexed the Sudettanland. The war didn’t start until two years later. So every time Kaladin started whining I would go ‘man, what a whimp. My grandfather was way stronger than you’ll ever be.’ Adolin I actually respected more. He picks up the pieces and moves on. How is that weak? Isn’t being able to move on the greater strength? (This is also why I love Disney’s Snow White. She comes from an abusive home, yet manages to retain her ability to love, to trust, to be compassionate. And she’s fourteen. There are people who go their whole lives trying to regain that. If I didn’t know RL people like that I’d think she was unrealistic. Since I do, I think she’s beyond awesome.)

Someone asked Brandon, officially confirming this. It was fairly evident however, as Ambition was the only Shard we knew Odium killed who’s Vessel we did not know. In addition, the description of Uli Da fit with the idea of Ambition, and we know Odium went after Ambition first (though he didn’t find her until Aona and Skai had been killed.) Unless Odium had killed a fifth Shard that we did not know, Uli Da had to be Ambition’s Vessel by process of elimination.

Just to clarify, Uli Da was female.

This was adorable! Thank you!

The last time I checked I still couldn’t order it.

Ah, well. I agree that it is a cool name though.

Oops! I forgot to put a question. (To be fair, it was 3am.) Thanks for fixing it @The Technovore!

BoM Kelsier has a rematch with TLR. (Yes, Kell takes aluminum guns and allomantic technology.) TLR is still a stronger allomancer. Two Fullborn in a fight? I soooo want to watch this! From a distance, say a space ship at the far end of the system.

How did you get ahold of Dragonsteel? If you didn’t, how do you know Hoid had the surname Maxtori at some point? Because I’m pretty sure I haven’t seen it published... I really want to read that thesis...

Mistborn era 4. There is no way of reading any version of this early. The (original) Dragonsteel I intend to try and get ahold of when I go back to college. Peter Ahlstrom says it’s supposed to be available for inter-library loan...

I think it would seriously mess with your identity and, possibly, connection. You wouldn’t be you any more.

I actually think Kell would be a Willshaper or Lightweaver. I think Willshapers tend to be free thinkers. And Kell is a conman, so I suspect he would attract a cryptic. We don’t really know much about Dustbringers, but I think they might prefer those inclined to science. I think Khriss could attract an inkspren or releaser Spren

Another alias. I actually checked, and WoB is Cephandrius is closer to his original name than Hoid; is less alias than long term identity; he was also known as Topaz at the same time; it was one of his first aliases. So Cephandrius is not his real name. However we don’t know the status of Midius yet.