hoser

Or Sadeas could destroy the gem to be certain. It could be a continuity error, but unbinding seems simple enough that I doubt Brandon will make a pivotal moment of it. So far, it seems to be mostly color. Now if Amaram had replaced the gem in the sword that Dalinar retrieved, that would have been awkward.

From the evidence we see, Jasnah clearly has a negative history with Amaram, some men and Navani. Amaram seems to be rotten at the core and, I imagine, would have seen acquiring a princess for a wife favorably. I can see him pursuing her in an apparently aboveboard, but utterly unsavory way. Navani seems invasive, controlling and determined (but in a good way). From Navani's description in WoR, there was a moment where Jasnah became distant to her. Between Jasnah's comments to Dalinar and Navani's description, it seems to me that Jasnah decided that keeping Navani at a distance was necessary. She does not exhibit the same animosity toward Gavilar. I imagine that the moment that Jasnah decided that she needed to keep her mother at arm's length corresponded to her breaking, but I am at a loss to the cause. Without her internal viewpoint, I don't know what significance different events would have had. I could see it being due to abuse or being trapped. The agent could have been Amaram, her mother or anybody in a position to try to control her.

To avoidminimize wall o' text, I will just address a few points here. I assume the word "kind" is good-natured sarcasm. I also apologize for the sharpness of my word choices. I fear insignificance. It causes me to be shriller than necessary when I perceive that I am not being listened to. I do not agree. I think H+C brought humans to the planet and things were generally OK until Odium came. Possession seems to be one of Odium's powers and he had influence over a (possibly small) minority of humans. By and large, humans opposed the forces of Odium. Before he recruited the Parshendi (I use this term because I believe the Listeners were the Parshendi that renounced Odium. Rlain didn't seem to consider them listeners after they adopted stormform.). Odious forces in the desolation would have been: Unmade, Thunderclasts and the (rest of the?) ten deaths, some few possessed or influenced humans, some few possessed monsters like the Chasmfiends. H (or H+C) would have opposed them with Heralds, the bulk of the humans and any allies, possibly including Parshendi. I have no idea where the Aimians stood. While he may have made agreements about conditions affecting the Desolations, I do not believe that Honor initiated them or used them to winnow the humans. I think the ten heralds and related orders encompass almost all the aspects of Honor along with Cultivation. The top of the chart (orders 9, 10, 1) are largely Honor and the remaining male Herald-led orders (8, 2) are mostly Honor, with the remaining orders less so. Syl provides much definition for one of the strongest aspects. We see more with the Bondsmith's second ideal (uniting, not dividing). Shallan and Pattern are mostly of Cultivation, but they also encompass an aspect of Honor, as does Jasnah and Ivory. Clearly Honor binds, judges, empowers conditionally, creates agreements, inspires, makes sacrifices, protects, leads and much more that we have yet to discover. Cultivation seems to provide gifts, but she heals, plans (hence seeing the future better) and guides and must have some pruning or weeding effect (perhaps Jasnah's thief episode gives us some sense of this). Odium seems to use possession, corruption, planning. His gifts have high cost (the unmaking of the Unmade) and does not protect his agents well (see Davar senior and Sadeas). Adonalsium invested in Roshar. That investment persists. There are still spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar. After Honor was splintered, the listeners are still able to bind spren. The apparent largest splinter of Honor claimed not to have the power to prevent Eshonai adopting stormform. The Everstorm can apparently bind the parshmen. If Honor enabled bonding then without Honor, it would be disabled. This is clearly not the case. Bonding has existed before during and after (intact) Honor's presence on Roshar. Does Honor work with and build on the already enabled bonding? Sure. So are we just arguing about the definition of enabling? You're welcome. And thank you! Edit: P.S. To repeat the question: If being tied to Cultivation bound Odium, then how did he go on to shatter Honor?

The general presumption has been that Nale and Ash are the Heralds you describe. Process of elimination has led to the conclusion that the person Nale is talking to in the beginning is Kelek. There is a brilliant theory by Argent that claims that the Heralds are twisted version of their attributes. So Nale is inhumanly cold, Kelek has become timid and Ash destroys beauty (particularly images of herself) rather than creating it. Edit: added link and credit

I agree. The left side seems to me to relate to the cognitive realm and the right side to the physical realm. I don't really understand the internal/external thing, but that could just be my stupidity and impatience.

First of all, please accept my appreciation (and an upvote) for your patient response. I appreciate that you are going on a deep dive. I respect the attempt. I am personally not interested in deep diving, as I believe my projections would diverge too heavily from Brandon's reality. I am interested in understanding the Cosmere and putting the related hints together to go one or two steps ahead, but not making an overall structure (bottom-up, rather than top-down, if you will). So I have no interest and consider it absurd to ask me, as a critic who studies minutiae, to "Just state not only your alternative, but how you fit that alternative into a comprehensive storyline, spelled out in detail." as a precondition. The problems with your overarching theories may first show up as cracks in the foundation. If the cracks are there, and I see them, it shouldn't matter whether I formulate my own overarching theories. If the cracks in the foundation of your theory are present in Book Two, it is not hard to predict a collapse before very long. I can treat your theories like a shipping thread, where people are enjoying their projections and I am better off not referring to the most likely extrapolation of the text, but I thought you were aiming for an accurate projection. Please let me know if you want me to treat your theories with the kid gloves that I use for shipping. If that is so, I apologize for all my comments about them and will do my best to refrain from further analysis. I made a specific criticism. I can understand that you integrate the various criticisms of your theories and amalgamate them. I challenge you to disintegrate your response to specifically answer the criticism presented. Responding to my specific comment and calling me out by handle with your general defense boilerplate seems like bad manners to me, particularly when it does not really apply. If Honor is causing the Desolations, it is hard to see him as a good guy from any perspective. If he just wanted to stop humans from encroaching on the listeners, there are many solution that are less contemptible and more "honor"able. I do not see your posts as "pure speculation." They seem to me to be based on the text that Brandon has written. Various evidence is filtered, integrated, weighed and judged to fit into patterns that attempt to flesh out the structure behind the presented surface. If the filtering, judgements, integration or weighting is wrong, then the structure may not be accurate. Claiming that your posts can only be criticized for factual inaccuracy or internal inconsistency seems like a defensive trap to me. If you are attempting to understand Brandon's Cosmere, your filtering, integration, weighting and judgements are all legitimate grounds for criticism. Referring to Schroedinger's Cat is in fact a red herring, because we do have a lot of data to work with in addition to great uncertainty. As I said above, demanding that your critics come up with their own overarching theories seems like just another defensive trap to me. If the criticism is legitimate, why does it need to be attached to a grand and almost certainly incorrect facade? I think that Honor's aspects are captured by the ten orders of Knights, while combining elements of Cultivation. It is interesting that you choose a noun to describe Honor's actions, when Brandon chooses a verb: bind. While Syl focuses on a particular aspect of Honor, I doubt it is the eighth most significant one. While the eighth definition most closely approximates good, the fourth and seventh (purity and chastity can be more than sexual abstinence) also overlap. As others have pointed out, the first ideal points more to these definitions than the more formal and social aspects that predominate in Mirriam-Webster. So evidence from Brandon's work is integrated with the title of the Shard to understand more clearly what Brandon means. in this post, you said 'I see Honor’s mandate (intent) as “Relationships,” enabling Rosharan bonding.' If, as we apparently agree, Rosharan bonding was enabled before Honor arrived and continues to be enabled independently of Honor, then the above quote does not make sense to me. That was the entirety of my point. Having one's consciousness tied to a wretched person bound to the spirit of Hatred seems like torture to me. Not something I would choose for a romantic partner. If we chose it together, I guess it might be more possible. If being tied to cultivation bound Odium, then how did he go on to shatter Honor? My point was this: there is a lot of evidence suggesting that the Desolations were Honor, Cultivation, the Heralds, the Knights (when they existed) most humans and maybe some allies against some odiously aligned humans, Odium, the Unmade, the ten Deaths and the listeners and maybe some allies. Any theory that puts Honor as being on the Parshendi side of the Desolations and Odium on the human side has some 'splaining to do, as does any theory that puts Honor on both sides of the Desolations while Odium is not a significant factor. While I will not be creating theories on the scale of yours (and I consider your expectation thereof to be a defensive trap), I do look forward to your predictions. It is definitely interesting to debate our shared obsession.

I like Moogle's point. I can also imagine that he may have had reports from Kabsal or others in Kharbranth about Shallan's drawing abilities, as Kabsal may have been a Ghostblood. Once it is revealed that Shallan is a Radiant, then maybe it can be deduced that she is a Lightweaver. From there, wondering about Veil could allow them to connect dots.

These posts are very interesting and creative. With a foundation of ignoring what we know of Brandon's world, it seems that you are spinning off into your own fantasy. That's fine, but it gets confusing for me when you assert that it is similar to Brandon's Cosmere. The Shards have been very carefully named in meaningful ways relating to their intent. Honor is not called "Relationships." Relationships is not even close to a synonym for honor. Any logic based upon the idea that "Honor" means "Relationships" is claptrap. EDIT (added this paragraph): Further, connecting Honor as the enabler of Rosharan bonding seems strange given what we know about the planet. We know that it was invested by Adonalsium at one time. It has a wide variety of creatures that are dependent on bonds, including the Parshendi, who are barely sentient without them. The Parshendi apparently predate the humans, who arrived with Honor and Cultivation. To me, it is apparent that the bonds predate Honor on Roshar, with Adonalsium possibly involved in the creation of the Parshendi and bonding in general. Responding to a post of mine that isn't even in this thread seems impossibly confusing. In this thread, I suggested that tying his romantic partner to Odium would not be in line with Honor's interests or intent. I think the element of romantic partner trumps concerns of race by so much that the comment about anthropomorphic trap is more claptrap. Using Kaladin's observation comparing an Odiously-influenced human army to Odium-free warforms long after Honor has been splintered shows that someone has fallen into the trap of assuming that all humans represent Honor long after he is gone. It also falls into the trap of assuming that all Parshendi are like the warforms. This is contradicted by much of what we know: Word of Brandon, the visions sent by Honor and the Listeners own visions. Here are just a few of many examples:

Interesting. Honor and Cultivation are romantic partners and Tanavast honored her by pairing her mind to the spirit of hatred. It would be a noble sacrifice if he was the one bound, but to do it to another seems off to me. Odium splinters Shards left and right, but does not pick up their power for fear that it will change him. But he somehow allows Tanavast to tie his mind to another's in a way that limits him. The theory seems creative and interesting, but it seems contrary to the little we know about how Honor and Odium work to me.

Aren't there many ways for Shallan to pick up Lightweaving tricks? After all, even in opposition, Kaladin learned from Szeth. Here are just a few I thought of quickly: learn from the Herald associated with her order find a book at Urithiru Pattern conveniently remembers learn from another proto-Radiant in either of the orders that Lightweaves learn from Hoid Jasnah tells her something she learned (even if Jasnah can't use it herself) I believe that Shallan is as far advanced as she ever was, if not more, so she could do sound lightweaving if she learned the trick. Brandon will likely make it dramatic, but this limitation is exists at Brandon's whim, as I see it. What did I miss?

My pathetic brain is not clear about how this discussion is moving. When she tries to use her surges in tWoK, Pattern asks her for truths. Only after the truths can she use the surges. But is that Pattern forcing her to deepen the bond, or is it that Pattern can't do it without the deeper bond? My judgment is that the level of the bond determines her capability, unless it is a situation like Syl temporarily suiciding herself to save Kaladin. Summoning the sword is either possible or not. If not, Pattern can interrogate her for a truth, then be there instantly as a sword. After the bond is re-established by truths and Shallan "drawing" Pattern more into the Physical, I don't think any more truth is needed to Shardblade-wield her spren. But maybe that is the point you were making. If summoning the sword for the first time counted as a truth, it would have advanced her, but it didn't seem to. While I agree that leveling up->powers and not power (shard-wielding)->leveling up, it could be that shard-wielding leads to a lower level truth, which at the time, Shallan is beyond. In addition, having the sword is an acknowledgement she has been fighting, so I have difficulty being more certain than posing the question.

All along Shallan seems to have known that she could use Pattern as a Shardblade at some level. Meanwhile, Pattern has mostly retreated to the cognitive. Shallan states truths to re-establish the bond. Do we know whether she could use Pattern as a blade without stating truths? She thinks she can summon the blade, but if the bond has weakened, it may be that she has to state some truths before it will actually appear.

It seems logical, but would render the healing surge less valuable. The evidence I would cite is the knights in Dalinar's starfall vision. The Stoneward seemed to only do regrowth with the fabrial and described it as a limited resource.

It only glowed in Shallan's imagination. Shallan rejected Pattern and "he" returned to the cognitive realm. Interview: Mar 11th, 2014 WoR Signing Report - Awesomeness Summoned (Verbatim)

Shadesmar only really exists where there are Shards and other thinking beings. Odium wants to wipe out all other Shards. To do that he needs to get free of Roshar with his investiture. Presumably he wants to splinter Cultivation and destroy all intelligent life before picking up his investiture and going to hunt down other Shards. That would not leave much of Shadesmar, methinks. Interview: Dec 15th, 2011

The Iriali mythology has multiple migrations (five?). The Vorin mythology has at least one. The listener mythology has the humans appearing suddenly. While nothing is provable, either way, you are discarding a lot of information and worldbuilding for your textually unsupported theory that Brandon wrote part of the story the same as Mistborn. My understanding of Brandon has doing it the same as Mistborn as an unlikely possibility. So the only support you have for your theory is more evidence against it for me. Brandon likes to do things in creative and interesting ways. While there are likely twists involved in understanding the mythological migrations, discounting them totally as a distraction makes no sense to me. The books are already long enough. Brandon doesn't need to throw in random red herrings.

So the Knights feel betrayed by what different spren (possibly Odious) have done? So offended that they kill their friends (who may be innocent) and abandon their Oaths-sworn duty. It's a theory. I can't prove it false. But it explains nothing. The Knights could have pursued many courses of action. They could have tried to trap or affect the spren that were causing the mischief. They could have acted in individually different ways. Why did it cause them to do what they did? Nine orders, to the person, and in unity. Because they felt betrayed. People's feelings are individual. For a joint action like this, I think it would have required something connected to their duties. Some of them likely would have been broken naturally, even. The author of the in-book WoR, who wrote soon after the Recreance and was very cognizant of spren bonds, apparently didn't know. If the Vorin church was censoring information about bonds, they couldn't have gotten to that book. The church was censoring things that made the Knights look good. They would have no reason to hide the fact that the Knights had been broken by spren deliberately traumatizing them. I have no evidence either way about the Vanrial. While a precognitively-influenced plan for the Knights to be reborn would explain it neatly, there are other possible explanations that rely on coincidence to explain why a single copy of tWoK was preserved in the same place as the Dawnchant. It seems that you agree that the Recreance may have been, in part, a plan to give people Shardblades, Shardplate and Soulcasters for their own protection. Meanwhile certain other artifacts were withheld. Yay for agreement! Why would Odiously-influenced spren want more Knights? Why would the existing Knights consider the Odious actions a betrayal by their own spren? I don't get it.

I've never understood how you would call a planet "Tranquilline Halls". I could imagine a spaceship on a multi-generational journey being known as such.

Lets assume it were so. The spren are causing people to be broken. It's an interesting idea, but so what? Why would that cause the Knights to quit? There must be another step that I'm not seeing. Are the Knights doing it to stop the spren from helping break other people? If so, then why not communicate it? Wouldn't it be more helpful to warn people about the danger? Instead, they seem to have carefully protected "The Way of Kings" and the Dawnchant among the Vanrial at the Silent Mount. They carefully made sure that people had Soulcasters, Shardblades, Shardplate and one Oathgate, but no Regrowth or portable teleportation fabrials. Why such particular details if all they wanted to do was to stop the spren from bonding? I don't see how it fits either the spren or Honor's intent. Pattern and Syl seem straightforward enough that a secret dark side doesn't really make sense. I can see where Odious influence on Roshone or Shallan's father could be implicated. Syl is composed of Honor, supposedly the embodiment of Nobility, oaths and promises. How does she reconcile that with getting Tien killed? Kaladin's signing up to help protect Tien was really the thing that started him on his protection path, but did Syl even know him when Tien was killed? All I can figure is that the Knights had a plan. They had Truthwatchers with precog. They somehow saw that their continued existence would be worse. Planning the Recreance could still have been congruent with their intent, but the moment they took action by yielding their Shards, they broke the first ideal and the spren were killed. They must have needed people to have certain fabrials and not others. They left only one working Oathgate as a way to get to Urithiru when the spren returned.

The spren fear extinction. If Odium wins, then he will presumably destroy the local Shadesmar and the spren. Why would they not take the risk that some would be killed, rather than the certainty of annihilation? Couldn't they have agreed, but the effect of what they agreed to caused them to scream? The Knights must have had meetings or discussions to plan the Recreance. They learned of the "wicked thing of eminence", then nine of the orders decided to wholly disband in concert. There is no way the spren would not have known. If the spren had disagreed they could have appeared to others and made their POV or objections known. There is no evidence that they did.

He likes playing this game with us, I think. He wants you to feel rewarded. Anything too specific could run afoul of either things he wants concealed for now or that he wants to congeal later. So there is no trickery or mean teasing. Tell the truth and ask for what you want. Something in your own words that means: "I really like Adolin. I know that his role in the story has changed and want to know more about him in his evolved position."

If the Nightwatcher were an accurate fortune teller, what is something she would tell Adolin about his fate?

One related thought is that it is presumably a matter of the first Herald to break that triggers the Desolation. I suppose it could be any arbitrary number or form of plurality, but the first to break is the simplest solution. I don't think it can be all of them breaking, because Taln is supposedly stubborn and would take much longer to break. I also can't imagine Odium saying: "Cool, you broke. Now enjoy yourself while we wait for five more to break." Odium would have to love the exquisite torture of the Heralds each knowing that one of them broke and still working together effectively in the subsequent Desolation.

Good catch. Thanks! I knew Lirin was of second nahn, but I thought his children would be one nahn lower, since I didn't think second nahn was a stable rank. But, as the heir, I guess Kaladin stayed second nahn. That does make the point even stronger. Supposedly, as second nahn, Lirin had the right of inquest, but Kaladin was certainly not granted an appeal.

I was not arguing that Dalinar should kill Amaram, but that he should disarm him, with killing as as the last resort if he resists being disarmed. Just be sure not to leave a confessed multiple murderer to walk free with the means of mass destruction. Whether or not Yenev had a child, his house would have had a succession and he would have had an heir (third cousin, once removed, or whatever). So unless Aladar was that heir or Yenev (if that's the correct name) was the very last of his house, the Highprincedoms are not strictly inherited. As for caste, people are born to a level, but it can change in an instant. Consider that Moash moved from nahn to high dahn instantly. Likewise Jushu almost moved from reasonably high dahn to slave. Kaladin moved from high nahn (third) to slave on the word of less than a highprince without judicial involvement. If there was a consensus that Kaladin should become a Highprince, the king could adjust his status. If he proves to be outstandingly heroic at Hearthstone and then Kholinar (big ifs!), not many will care about the birth rank of a Radiant Shardbearer hero. Likewise, his dealing with the Assassin in White, saving the king, dealing with Voidbringers in Hearthstone and riots in Kholinar could easily take care of the PR. In feudal systems, people could be knighted for meritorious performance on the spot. Even modern armies allow for field promotions. Whether Elhokar learns anything or not, if Kaladin is accessible, he may feel obliged to invest effort in trying to teach him. I personally think that Elhokar has a good heart and Kaladin has been an effective mentor, so I hope for Kaladin's leadership development that he is effective with Elhokar, but the results don't affect the burden.