hoser

All good ideas! The "we" could refer to another Shard, traitors or minions. Dalinar does definitely seem to be getting help. Almost like a cosmic background radiation. It does seem like it could be from Nohadon, Tanavast, Honor, Adonalsium, the god beyond, perhaps even another cognitive entity. That help could affect how Odium perceives him. I lean towards Adonalsium or the god beyond, just because Dalinar seems convinced that it is beyond Tanavast and he has experienced Tanavast's projections. But now that seems too straightforward, so I expect some twists.

I must be a simpleton. Three simple words: "we killed you". I don't understand any of them. I splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + minions and/or traitors; "killed" = Splintering of Honor and maybe subsequent death of Tanavast): Obvious. But Odium doesn't seem like the most likely to be sharing credit with what he probably sees as lesser contributors. And Dalinar didn't say he was Honor. He said he was Unity. We Shards splintered Honor ("you" = Honor; "we" = Odium + another Shard; "killed" as above): Also obvious. What other Shard? Nepene suggested Autonomy below. Cultivation and Honor are local, but surprising possibilities given what we understand of their motivations. But why did Dalinar say he was Unity? Our group Shattered Adonalsium ("you" = Adonalsium; Implicitly "we" = Rayse + other actors; "killed" = Shattering of Adonalsium): Does that mean that Dalinar reminds him of Adonalsium? Is Unity the same as Adonalsium? Is Dalinar rebuilding Adonalsium? Why does Syl think it's Honor's Perpendicularity? Because Honor was part of Adonalsium and she didn't know Adonalsium? Dalinar and I killed Evi ("you" = Evi; "we" = Odium + Dalinar; "killed" = normal human death): Fifth of Daybreak proposed this below. The "we" makes sense. I assume that the voice is Evi and she has lingered somehow, rather than traveling beyond. But does Odium even know about the communication between what I presume to be Evi and Dalinar? Why would Odium focus on a long-dead pawn in the face of a presence of something that sees him as small that he is apparently unwilling to face? In context, wouldn't Odium be addressing what's in front of him? Dalinar's anger and I overcame Dalinar's responsible, growing self ("you" = new, controlled Dalinar; "we" = Odium + Dalinar's anger; "killed" = human internal transformation): Crimson Not Blood suggests this below. Autonomy and I splintered Unity: mirianme proposes this on the second page. A related issue is what Dalinar is becoming and what is influencing him. It seems awkward to include here. Is the god beyond encouraging Dalinar to unite the Shards? What did Tanavast's unity charge in the vision mean? Unite the human nations? Unite the humans and the parsh? Or is Tanavast also encouraging him to unite the Shards? Was Tanavast under the influence of what Dalinar is perceiving? Does this deserve it's own thread or should I try to include it? You guys have already provided other explanations. Let's figure this out as well as we can!

The biggest problem I have with the "broken Heralds creates Unmade" theory is imagining the first Desolation without agents of Odium. In the flashbacks it has seemed to me that they are known quantities. I imagine 10 Heralds and 9 Unmade facing off at the first Desolation.

On other shardworlds there have been special numbers associated with Shards and combinations there of. The "10" Surges seems like a "magic" number associated with H&C. The other chart that has has 10 alternate symbols could be Odium's corrupted versions (corrupting seems like his thing) or maybe related to fabrials. There is a hint in the text IIRC, that Odium has an association with 9. I know nothing definitively, but making theories based on 9 being 10 - 1 could miss when 9 is Odium's special number. Do we really know that there are 9 types of Fused? The Unmade seem characteristic of Odium. I think there being 9 is based on that being his magic number. The Fuzed, which seem to me to be the Voidbringers, appear to be based on corruptions of the surges. So there could be 10 types or if 9, it could be based on 10 - 1 logic. If this makes any sense. Cheers!

Not that easy. Intent doesn't have to be in the spiker. If the spiker is influenced by another, and the other has an intent ... Consider the first two quotes here.

Yeah. This seems amazing. Assuming Rayse was involved in making the dagger and it is a spike, then his intent could affect what was acquired. Was it some of Jezrien's abilities or participation in the Oathpact? What if Dalinar got spiked into the Oathpact, for example?

I just added these questions to the OP, but this is new to the thread. Consider the quote below. What does Syl mean? There may have been humans on Roshar before the Shattering. There may have been multiple waves of migration thereafter. Honor and Cultivation were on Roshar before Odium. Is Syl saying that the Shin were people of Odium before they came to Roshar? But what about Kaladin? He is Alethi. Is Syl saying that all migrations of Humans were originally of Odium? I don't get it!

Yes! A thousand times yes! I love this so much. Ialai and the Sadeas heir may have a claim that Amaram effectively stole the Shards, but I like this so much more. Since Sadeas just stole the Horneater possessions when challenged, it would be quite fitting. Arguably, Ialai was negligent and responsible for the Shards being misused and they should be forfeit. In addition, with a weak rule of law, possession is a significant factor. The Sadeas army having gotten wrecked doesn't help. Brandon can play it variously, but I love this.

I'm confused. I added a quote, but it is not clear how to reconcile with the information at the end of Oathbringer

We have more information about the history of Roshar. I'm throwing down what I surmise here. Please help 'cuz there's a lot I don't know. If there is enough interest, I will update the OP with information, relevant WoB and other people's theories. Sequence: Adonalsium invests Roshar, creates Listeners and the highstorm. Spren may be a result of the highstorm linking of realms. Greatshells are created or evolve. Listeners have 4 genders as do at least some of the spren. Aimians (both kinds) created by Adonalsium? Larkin too? What about the Nightwatcher and the "Old Magic?" Wandering Investor pointed out thatHumans and Parshendi intermixed to create Herdazians and Horneaters before H, C or O ascended. Did Adonalsium facilitate the combination? If so, are Humans and Parshendi essentially both "native" to Roshar. Cultivation and Honor invest the system, bring people to Tranquilline Halls. Braize? A destroyed planet? Ashyn? The interactions between Honor, Cultivation and the Rosharan system creates the surgebinding magic system Wildly speculating about the order here. Odium comes to the Rosharan system, sets up the mountains around Shinovar and brings people there. The yellow flamespren with Shin eyes who walk on stone projections develop here. These holy spren are allowed to walk on stone, but not normal people. Odium messes with the Tranquilline Halls. Surgebinders develop here. Do H+C create the Heralds here and give them the Honorblades while Honor makes the Oathpact with them? Does Odium unmake the Unmade here? Surgebinders destroy the Tranquilline Halls. H+C transport their people to non-Shinovar parts of Roshar. Cultivation helps horses evolve into Ryshadium. Dawnsingers/listeners help humans get established. Stormfather gets associated with Honor/Almighty. Cultivation and the Nightwatcher associate. Conflict arises between the varieties of humans and listeners. Heralds get established now if the didn't exist before. H+C spren awaken that can bond humans. Odium makes spren forms of power for the listeners including stormform. Surgebinders arise. Odium invests some dead listeners to become Voidbringers. The Heralds make a deal to adjourn to Braize with the Voidbringers and the cycle of Desolations start. The Iriali people arrive (from where?). No real idea about where this fits in the timeline. I think they may start in Shinovar. Ishi and the spren constrain the Surgebinders to become the Knights Radiant. The Heralds lose it and the Desolations become quicker, leading to the Last Desolation. Does Stormseat get destroyed here? By whom? Odium still creates conflicts that are moral dilemmas. Does Aimia get scoured here? Who was the enemy at Feverstone keep? Melishi finds a way to interfere with the spren bonds except for the Last Legion. The Knights become demoralized and eventually conspire with their spren to stop Surgebinding, except the Skybreakers. Honor is splintered, but makes recordings to sustain the opposition to Odium. Vorin gender roles develop (is Odium involved?). Hierocracy Sunmaker The events that we are familiar with, starting with Gavilar seeing the highstorm visions, Jasnah and Shallan bonding spren and the Listeners exploration. Vasher and Nightblood arrive, but Nale grabs Nightblood. Questions: What are the Tranquilline Halls? Braize? Another system planet? A planet on another system? Can Honor and Cultivation create the same magic system (surgebinding) on different systems? If another system was destroyed by Surgebinding, did it have spren? Or did H+C have another way for Surgebinders to become invested? When Syl tells Kaladin that people that they were of Odium before they were of Honor, was she referring to humans generally? The Shin specifically? Some of the races? Where did the people come from? Were the Alethi once the people of Dominion? Were the Makabaki the people of Devotion? Did H+C collect waves of people from around the Cosmere? Quotes: Above quote credit to Wandering Investor Above quote credit to Subvisual Haze. Does this mean we have four separate human migrations?

So the theory is that Odium is really Passion? I'm afraid I don't buy it for 5 reasons: The name Odium seems to be generally accepted The Hoid quote mentioned above Dalinar's perception of him mentioned above In the climactic battle, he planned and schemed and controlled and then was willing to engage, but when things started to go wrong and seem uncertain, he bailed. This seemed to me like the meal "best served cold" rather than the action of Passion. Passion seems like it should be likely to double down when challenged, rather than live to fight another day. The conversation and agreement with Mr. T. That level of scheming, foresight and planning does not seem passionate to me. There are definitely some passionate aspects of Odium, but Passion does not accurately encompass the range of his behaviors, IMO.

I know it wasn't what you were saying. But if the spren had been trying to bond Eshonai as a Radiant, then Venli seems unlikely, particularly for the same order. as there interests and personalities seem different to me. So if the spren is trying to do the same thing with Venli that it had been with Eshonai, then what was it trying to do? What do they have in common besides mothers, Listener leadership and the sword?

So the spren follows the sword? I haven't seen any hints that livespren feel particular attachments to particular deadspren, but it seems possible. Venli doesn't seem like a candidate for Radiance, at least not the same order as Eshonai.

I agree. Why would the cometspren stick around if she were dead? Could Eshonai be dead enough for her stormspren to abandon her, but the cometspren revive her somehow? The parshendi have proven unskilled at medicine before. Maybe the cometspren is going to get human help for Eshonai. Maybe some of the Listeners become Unmade retained tactical skill while others remained or became more mindful. Planning and organization seem compatible with Odium's portfolio, so it makes sense to me that some of the unmade would have skills in those areas.

Wait, what? Adolin is too old for Shallan? In my experience, we "boys" are 2-3 years less mature than girls of comparable age. Then we never grow up. I think Shallan is too mature for Adolin if he is only 5 years older!

Yeah! Right up there with realizing that she may not think her mother is good enough for her uncle.

Yes! And Hoid apparently knows that the Heralds are still around. Maybe Dalinar can even give the Heralds a call on the Stormfatherphone, watch and discuss old times on Honorvision and start kicking some serious Odious butt.

I do wish that Kaladin had made the point to his angry Parshmen "captors" that the people who are around in the present are not responsible for depriving them of the bond. It happened long ago. The current people had nothing to do with it. I can imagine Bridge 4, Kaladin and Elhokar heading off to Kholinar and Alethkar generally. Rlain could present the rebellious parshmen with an alternative path and hopefully an understanding of their range of options.

Ooh, ooh, ooh! It probably won't happen, but ... wouldn't it be awesome if a Herald (I know that they are all insane, but one that is capable of some coherent conversation, ... please, pretty please) showed up?

Jasnah once considered assassinating the queen. Jasnah would probably not at this time, but who knows. She has proven to be more ruthless than Shallan expected before.

Hoid knows when and where something important will occur. Either he stayed with Jasnah or he left because he was needed elsewhere. Assuming that they stayed together, what useful things could have happened between the Unclaimed Hills and Urithiru? 1. Find another budding Radiant 2. Go to Kholinar, saving or killing the queen, as needed, but saving the Royal heir. But why not communicate from Kholinar in this case? 3. Visit the monastery of Radiant secrets (where tWoK and dawnchant were preserved). 4. Pick up a 17th Sharder like Nazh. This could be good, but I think the 17th Sharder are already here. 5. Intercept Shallan's family Anyway, we're almost halfway through the first quintet, so it seems like time for a big info-dump council meeting. I hope it's Jasnah, Hoid and a 17th Sharder if needed. The phrasing "several other people" implies to me that they are more than just Jasnah and Hoid.

Sure, sure. Important distinctions. We really only know WoB, in-world legends are possibly warped, distorted or worse. It having been a few years since I really thought about this, I wrote loosely. I can't speak for recent popularity of the lost aspects of the Unmade, but it seemed obvious to me all along and that is years. It makes sense to me when I think about Odium, that he would warp or corrupt things, that he isn't creative or inclined to supplement things, so where he giveth, he would take away.

Interesting. Since the Unmade seem unique, I have been assuming that they were based on aspects of Odium. In general, I think Odium wants to minimize nonrecyclable use of Investiture. I further assume, based on the name "Unmade," that Odium invested existing creatures that subsequently lost physicality. Don't we know that some were once listeners?

I think I was annoyed at being told my theory was wrong and that I had tried to explain my not very thought-through (due largely to indifference) realmatic theory to someone who cared and had thought more about it. So using the word "tendentious," while maybe justifiable on threadjacking concerns, was boorish, IMO. Anyway, I'm sorry and wish I had responded more positively. Your post was interesting and we find this stuff fun. I thought the quotes were on point, though. I wonder whether I should edit the post to be how I wish I had responded or leave it there as a badge of shame. And thanks! PS: In light of your enthusiasm, I am starting to think about your points about the surges. I'm concerned about threadjacking relative to the OP, but maybe I shouldn't be, given the title.

Sorry. I misunderstood your original question. I thought you were asking out of curiosity rather than tendentiousness. I like that Brandon systematizes the magic, but I don't take realmatic theory too seriously. The point was, as far as this thread was concerned, that the ten orders of knights and their corresponding spren are H and/or C, not 10 Honor Knights/spren and 10 separate corresponding knights/spren for Cultivation. I think we agree on that?