hoser

What a great thread! There are so many amazing confrontations already set up. I can't wait! I keep thinking of Szeth going to kill Dalinar. He is instructed to start right away and to do it "brutally". I assume brutally to mean publicly and with great collateral damage. The first question is whether he meets Jasnah and Shallan on the way. Jasnah has chartered a boat to take her and Shallan to the Shattered Plains. Looking at the map, the boat will presumably go to Karanak in Alethkar and then they will caravan to the Shattered Plains. Conceivably one could also travel overland through the frostlands or boat to the end of the unnamed bay in the frostlands and caravan from there, but I imagine the frostlands to be somewhat difficult. Will Szeth be on the same boat and/or caravan? Jasnah could get suspicious. I doubt Szeth would kill them unless he had to. Potential hilarity. Next, Szeth has to sneak into the warcamps. The Alethi are going to be wary of Shin, Kaladin knows him and Kaladin is going to be looking for people trying to assassinate Dalinar. More potential hilarity. Finally, Szeth has to perform the public assassination. Szeth seems skilled enough to best Kaladin, but Kaladin may have certain advantages: He may be able to use stormlight more efficiently (particularly if he has learned the third Windrunner oath)(this assumes that Szeth is getting his Windrunner powers from the Honorblade he carries and not the "Nahel Bond"). Szeth is in his mid-thirties and will have been slowed from his physical prime. The other bridgemen may have developed some Windrunner abilities and may thus help. The assorted developing Radiants may absorb all the available Stormlight and leave him stranded. Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Elhokar, Jasnah, Shallan could all help. Great hilarity. I envision a conflict where he runs out of Stormlight and is then at the mercy of Adolin. No-one can be imprisoned with a Blade, of course. He could be confronted with the choice of giving up his Blade or being killed. He would have to choose to violate one of the rules that bind him to his Stone, which could be a problem for his already cracked mind. I don't want to go any further with my fantasies when we all know that Brandon will come up something infinitely better.

This is just the physical realm shadow of an awesome comment made in the cognitive realm. Commenting before, hope gains hope, before commenting.

Thanks! This seems to be a quite reasonable alternative theory. I tried to include it in the head post. Please let me know if I failed to do it justice. I also seem to be covering some of the same ground as your timeline thread. As I understand this theory, the Day of Recreance would immediately follow the shattering of the Oathpact. Looking for more evidence, I found the following in Chapter 42 Paperback p 737: And then in Chapter 28: I am too lazy to look for it now, but I remember there being a description of the "Heraldic Epoch" somewhere else that might harbor a clue. I wonder whether someone with an ebook version might be able to just search for it. The quote in the first spoiler does not seem to clearly indicate that there were Desolations after the Oathpact Shattering, but it does imply to me that the Radiants persisted for a significant amount of time after the end of the Oathpact. If the Radiants were in combat with "devils" at the time of the Recreance, it seems possible that there were desolations between the end of the Oathpact and the Recreance, at least if we trust these records of the ardents. The second spoiler also indicates that there was a significant time between the departure of the Heralds and the Recreance. For reasons that are unclear to me, the Yelig-nar thread that is referenced in your timeline thread seems to assume that the Radiants persisted for some time after the Shattering of the Oathpact.

Very interesting response. Thank you. I tried to incorporate your theory into the head post. Please correct me if you think I misinterpreted your theory significantly. It seems possible that things happened the way you say. Which makes me think of my assumptions. There are a number of events whose order is not clear to me: Death of Honor Destruction of Natanatan Oathpact Termination Day of Recreance Most recent Desolation At the Oathpact Termination, there are clearly still Knights Radiant, so that orders those two events. You seem to be saying that The Knights Radiant quit after the end of the Oathpact, and that there have been no Desolations since the end of the Oathpact. You also believe that the Radiants were caught up in non-Desolation struggles. I envisioned the Heralds quitting before the most recent Desolation and that there were some number of Desolations that were held back by just Talanel'Elin, the KR and their allies including the Silver Kingdoms. I also envision the Silver Kingdoms holding together until after the Recreance. The only evidence I can find is from the Prelude, the Midnight Essence Vision and the Recreance Vision. In the Prelude, the conditions described are different than those at the Recreance as detailed below. In the Midnight Essence Vision the Knights Radiant seem to be figuring out when the Desolations are coming on their own, so the 9 Heralds could have already quit (This supposes that the Radiants were depending on the Heralds to "herald" the coming of the desolations before the shattering of the Oathpact. After the Oathpact Talanel would have been coming back anyway, so this argument is not strong). In the Recreance Vision the only reference to the enemy is as "devils". Is there any evidence that the Radiants were used in non-Desolation battles? The differing conditions between the Prelude and the Day of Recreance are: Prelude fighters in ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather vs Recreance reserve troops in armor and bronze helms Prelude bronze spearpoints vs Recreance steel spearpoints Prelude furious battle, " ... one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious." vs Recreance reasonably well equipped reserve castle well behind the front lines and not expecting to be challenged. Day of Recreance Most recent Desolation These differing conditions could also be due to differences between parts of Roshar. One argument for there being no Desolations since the shattering of the Oathpact is that if the Heralds declared victory and then there were more Desolations, they might not have been viewed with as much reverence. The Stormlight Timeline lists the order as Midnight Essence Vision, Oathpact Termination+Most Recent Desolation, Day of Recreance. I think the Midnight Essence vision could be between the Oathpact Termination and the Recreance and that the end of the Most Recent Desolation could correspond to the Day of Recreance. This gives a different timeline: Possible Desolations Oathpact Start Desolations Nohadon organizes Silver Kingdoms, writes/dictates WoK Knights Radiant form Desolations Possible Midnight Essence Vision Occurrence Oathpact Termination Possible Desolations Alternate Midnight Essence Vision Occurrence More Possible Desolations Day of Recreance+End of Most Recent Past Desolation Death of Tanavast (Honor) The destruction of Nanatanan could occur anytime after the Midnight Essence Vision. The arguments for the Most Recent Desolation being after the end of the Oathpact are: the varying conditions between the Prelude and the Recreance Vision, the reference to the Radiants' opponents being devils, the Heralds' ignorance in the prelude about whether the Desolations would end when the 9 walked away and Jezrien's insistence that . I believe that the degree of detail in the visions places the Death of Tanavast after the Day of Recreance. I don't see how any Desolation after the Day of Recreance could have been defeated, so the Day of Recreance must have coincided with the end of the most recent past Desolation. There is a lot of flimsy evidence involved in this assemblage. I really want to know what people think about these ideas and what I may have missed.

As I've suggested in a couple of threads lately, I wonder whether Shard bearing as in Dalinar's final vision refers to creatures (voidish or not) taking up Shards of Adonalsium and enabling magics. If Tanavast was killed and his Shard (Honor) has been inactive, then his vision could talking about somehow getting hold of the Shard and somebody doing as Vin and Sazed did in picking them up. This would fit with the back cover reference about there still being magic before Tanavast was killed. I read surgebinding coming from acting in ways that attract certain spren that engage in the "Nahel Bond". Honorable actions would attract an honorspren and the ideals would lead toward the Knight Radiant thing. Some non-honor spren can also create the "Nahel Bond" (see Alakavish? from the vision with Nohadon) that creates surgebinders. There are supposedly 30 magic systems in Roshar. Each of the ten orders of the KR has a unique pairing of two surges. I like the idea that I've read elsewhere that Windrunners (Kaladin) use Pressure and Gravity. Elsewhere, I've seen it suggested Jasnah uses Soulcasting and Stormlight blasting (something like that) while Shallan uses Soulcasting and her Memory thing. Dalinar seems to be able to move extra fast and be extraordinarily strong. So we've got Pressure, Gravity, Soulcasting, Strength, Memory, Stormlight transmission. The healing thing (Regrowth?) that the KR woman does with the fabrial seems like it could be distinct power also. At least some KR also seem to be able to do a teleportation thing too. With this many, it almost seems like there should be 10 for some reason. Now what would the 30 systems be? Three shards times 10 abilities? Or is the pair of abilities that the Windrunners use (Pressure and Gravity) a magic system? Three shards times 10 sets of pairs of abilities from a palette? Can there be positive and negative abilities that different shards can't endow their agents with? Ouch! I just don't know enough...

I love this theory for tying together loose ends that I had ignored. These Ghostbloods seem to be drowning in supposedly rare Shard-arms. Who's behind them? I like the previous comment about Amaram being killed causing instability as a motivation. Who gains from Alethan instability? Odium? Other kings? Highprinces? I think the battle was between Alethans, but perhaps the Vedan king is wants to weaken Sadeas and Alethkar in general and provided generous assistance to one faction.

Yes, dyring, I think you make an excellent point. The honorblades could be helpful or necessary. They could hold some measure of Honor's power. I've even seen speculation that seemed to imply that Szeth was carrying one. It brings up other questions: Can they be found? Do the Heralds need to use them? Do the Heralds need to reassemble? [digression] I even get a picture of an adventure to find and convince the Heralds to come out of retirement ... [/digression] The one thing I don't get: Dawnshards and Honorblades are two completely different words. They are both apparently powerful and can be borne, but I don't understand them to be the same things. I know that there are Shardblades that share a sub-word with each, but I don't get how that makes Dawnshards and Honorblades the same. So I don't see how the final vision quote from Honor is about Honorblades. Educate me, please. I also imagine that if the final quote is talking about the Shards of Adonal-Gibber-Balder-sium, then they are so much more powerful than the awesome Honorblades, that Honor would emphasize them even if the Honorblades are also needed. Of course, the final quote could just be Tanavast's recorded point of view. In which case the Dawnshards could be a red herring, or irreparably shattered or splintered or whatever. The Honorblades could then be the vital remnants of Honor that hold off the final Desolation. My personal opinion is that the speech is more significant and that someone will take up and/or reassemble the Shard of Honor. Dalinar seems like a logical candidate, but that's probably too obvious.

I've been trying to understand why the Knights Radiant quit. There are theories: A deal with Odium to end Desolations. Understood that they were really serving Odium. In response to Tanavast's death. Being used non-Desolation wars between kingdoms. (Suggested below by dyring) Because they were told by the Heralds that they had won and that there would be no more desolations. (Suggested below by Kelek) Part of a long term plan to foil Odium which, in the short term, forced at least some of them to violate their oaths. There is a Brandon Q&A that deals with this question and seems to indicate that there is a distinct trigger for the Recreance. It does not shed any light on whether there are Desolations between the Prelude and the rest of The Way of Kings. I favor the first because the conditions at the end of the Oathpact seem different than at the Day of Recreance and there seem not to be any Desolations after the Radiants quit. They also claim that it is their "duty and privilege to stay vigilant for the Desolations". Thus they could honorably declare victory if believed they were at an end. This seems consistent with either 1 or 5 above. Related questions: Were there any Desolations between the "Shattering" of the Oathpact and the Day of Recreance? What happened to the Radiants? What changed that Odium can initiate another Desolation now? What do people think? Edited: Add theories

I am grateful for this compendium and have learned a lot from reading your thoughts here. One line of speculation that I haven't seen addressed is what the contributions of Honor to Roshar are? I have the following lists that I would love to know what others think about and how they could be improved. Honor: Honorspren Knights Radiant Heralds People? Honorblades Ryshadium Horses Honor+Odium (not sure where Cultivation fits into all this): Shardblades Shardplate (Syl doesn't seem to have a problem with this, so maybe it's Honor's) Oathpact Highstorms Nahel bond, Surgebinders Odium: Desolations Voidish Creatures Thunderclasts Unknown Dustbringers Nightwatcher Stone Shamanism GhostBloods Parshendi Parshmen Enjoy!

I really like this thought, because of the following quotes from Dalinar's final vision (paperback p 1246): My wacky interpretation says that there are multiple not-borne Shards that can be returned to men (Honor and Cultivation? (but Tanavast apparently refers to Cultivation in the present female tense earlier)). Apparently Tanavast's view is that they are almost necessary if the Final Desolation is to be kept from being fatal to people.

Synthesizing, stealing and wildly speculating, it seems to me that "dawn" could be used as a prefix for anything in the "prehistory" of Roshar. If the "modern" era begins sometime after the recreance and the most recent desolation, then Dawnshards and Shards of Adonalsium could be synonyms. The interesting quotes for me are in Dalinar's final vision (paperback p 1246): These quotes could be referring to the same things as Shards and Dawnshards. I don't see how Shardblades and Shardplate could be returned to men when men still have them, so I don't see the quote referring to them. Elsewhere in these forums, I have read that Honor, Odium and Cultivation are the Shards that were on Roshar. Odium still seems to be active and therefore borne by a man (generically, or a woman). The implication of the above quote is that there are plural Shards that are not currently borne by people. Since the only non-odium Shards on Roshar seem to be Cultivation and Honor, the implication is that both Honor (borne by Tanavast until Odium killed him?) and Cultivation are both not being borne by people. A further implication is that without finding and taking up the unused Shards, reestablishing the Knights Radiant and getting Odium to choose a champion will not be likely to work very well.

Great speculations! I do note a few things that I remember from the book. Kaladin's dream storm-ride goes ocean to ocean, so the storms must pass around Shinovar, rather than end in the mountains shielding it. Nohadon walks from Abamabar (I don't know where this is although at one point he is in what is now known as Kholinar) to Urithiru in weeks. If he walks 15 miles a day, that might be about 300 miles within a factor of 0.5 to 2. Thanks for the thoughts.

Interesting thoughts. Spoiler warning. I think Dalinar is already connected to an honorspren. I cite Chapter 26 "Stillness" p467-468 of the paperback. He is caught between the "Thrill" and a strange revulsion. I don't know whether the revulsion is from his spren or not, but then he experiences thoughts that seem alien to him: "Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered." "Life before death. What was that voice?" These thoughts and maybe the reaction seem like they could be coming from an honorspren. I don't know whether the spren hasn't revealed itself to him or he just doesn't recognize it.