hoser

The bridgemen in the Way of Kings are an expression of the Alethi concept of honor as interpreted by Sadeas. I completely agree that it is just a failure of Dalinar's imagination that he doesn't separate the implementation from the execution and see the effectiveness of light, portable bridges in moving forces quickly. The bridgemen are just part of the army. There are many non-bait ways to use portable bridges. Since untrained slaves can carry the bridges effectively, you could have your regular soldiers carry them and just train more soldiers to allow for some of them being exhausted at the beginning of the assault. The soldiers carrying the bridge can have their armor carried by others until the final approach. Units could also take turns carrying the bridges. Amen! If Dalinar becomes Highprince for war successfully and survives Szeth's assassination attempt things will presumably change. I imagine that there will be a period of force integration and retraining before a systematic campaign will push to the center of the Shattered Plains and attempt to engage the Parshendi at their bases. The bridges are a metaphor that do not bear too careful examination anyway. Consider what happens when you push a pencil over halfway off the edge of the desk. As soon as the center of gravity is over the edge, the bridge wants to fall into the chasm. There would have to be downward force on the back of the bridge. Otherwise the bridge would have to be about twice as long as the width of the longest chasm it would have to span. Neither of these matches the descriptions from the Way of Kings. The Parshendi, for their part, should be pushing the bridges sideways when they reach the Parshendi side of the chasm. If the bridges drop into the chasm, no cavalry charge. They could also concentrate their fire on one side of the bridge as it is being pushed across. The bridge would have to slow to accommodate the losses on one side and it would be easier to push the bridge to that side as it approaches.

If any shard could develop a race adapted for an environment, it would be Cultivation. What if the Parshendi are evolved by Cultivation to survive the highstorms? Maybe even make use of the flash of energy from the spiritual realm with something like a gemheart. Maybe their strange ability to communicate and sing in unison could be linked.

Basically, I agree with this, with the minor exception of the Voidbringers. I do think that Odium invested the ten Voidbringers, perhaps a similar expenditure to what Honor did with the Heralds. When Honor further invested the Radiants and maybe all the people of Roshar, he became weaker. Odium, due to the nature of his intent, could see how to render Honor's investment worthless in the distant future and eventually turn on an Honor weakened by his multiple investments. So Odium has invested in the Voidbringers, but with only 10, he has retained more strength than any of the other Shards that he splintered. The Voidbringers, which he presumably hates, and who probably hate him also, exist only to corrupt, take over and destroy, so they are a very efficient investment.

Really interesting theory. It doesn't totally fit for me because I believe the Radiants and Shardblades follow the expulsion from the Tranquilline halls and the Radiants didn't seem to have the intention of taking them back. Historically, as I understand it, the Radiants were started during Nohadon's reign, on Roshar. The Radiants, in turn, were the source of almost all the Shardblades. The only Shardblades that might predate the expulsion from the Tranquilline Halls would be the ten Honorblades of the Heralds. Presumably the Shardblades were made to mimic some of the aspects of the Honorblades. In the Midnight Essence vision, the female Radiant explains their purpose: Per Szeth, in the prologue: I see nothing in this about any purpose beyond defending Roshar. Based on the history and purpose of the Radiants, the Shardblades seem to have been created and used for fighting on Roshar. Whether they would be useful in the spiritual realm is another matter, of course. What if the way that the Radiants kept fighters from being "destroyed" was through the Radiant Oaths? Maybe the only people trusted with Shardblades were five-oath Radiants. Maybe Syl's problem with Dalinar having the blade is that he has not committed to the oaths and become a full Radiant. There might be nothing wrong with the Shardblade, except that to Syl, Dalinar looks like a three-year old carrying a hand grenade around. Dangerous! The way Syl talks about Dalinar's Shardblade doesn't really fit the previous paragraph's theory. She seems to refer to the blade as the problem, not the combination or Dalinar's lack of constraint.

Of course, I'm just guessing based on scattered tidbits of a breadcrumb trail. If I were arrogant enough to try to answer, I would say that Odium: has the tattered remains of the Oathpact to clean up (which may still constrain him in some way). can assure himself that Honor and Cultivation will never be taken up by making the planet uninhabitable. But being arrogant is bad, so I would never do that. I agree completely, that is what makes the story compelling and heroic. These puny underdog creatures and Shardic remnants are trying to stop what even the intact Shards could not.

dj, It seems possible, but not my favorite possibility, for three reasons: Taravangian seems to be studying Jasnah to determine if she's a threat to his plans (the rock in the palace when his own people have at least one soulcaster or they can soulcast like Jasnah, conversing with her on a bad day and not killing her with Szeth) rather than just trying to kill her. Taravangian seems to be frighteningly efficient, whereas the Ghostbloods seem to be made of pure fail. Kabsal kind of lost it once when talking to Shallan about Vorinism. I think it was Brandon's way of indicating that he was motivated by religious fervor. Taravangian's crew seem to be more secular. Faint clues and, as you suggest, Taravangian could be using the Ghostbloods or even the Parshendi behind the scenes. I wish Brandon had given us more about the different parties from Gavilar's point of view, but I guess he wants to leave 9 books worth of mysteries a dying man can only say so much.

Or it might not be about Jasnah. Consider what we know about the Ghostbloods. Helped her father advance among the Veden nobility. Tried to have Amaram assassinated. Tried to assassinate Jasnah. They could be trying to destabilize existing leadership to put in their own, more or less like Taravangian. They don't influence Elhokar or Jasnah as much as they would like, so they'll do whatever they can to disrupt his regime. Killing his sister could only increase his paranoia and disrupt the succession. Sadeas and Dalinar are the king's main supporters, and killing Amaram threatens the stability of his region, so Sadeas might be forced to return to Alethkar. Without Sadeas, the group on the plains is less likely to hold together.

It seems to me that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor made before Odium splintered the Shard. This WOK death quote chapter lead-in seems relevant to me. The voice from Kaladin's highstorm dream likewise. and The above quotes are evidence but not proof. There is a Brandon quote about there having been three shards on Roshar. There are various reasons to believe that they are Honor, Cultivation and Odium. There is a Brandon quote that Honor was splintered by Odium. To me, they suggest that Cultivation is splintered or has left. Brandon has also said that the spren are of Honor and Cultivation. So, if you believe that Cultivation left, why would her spren still be everywhere? So I think Cultivation is splintered. Another implication of the highstorm dream voice is that Odium is very present.

Fascinating speculation. Thank you! A few minor points: Dalinar eventually concludes that the vision figure was not responding to his questions. So when he previously thought that the vision figure was responding to his question about Sadeas, Dalinar made the mistake of trusting Sadeas. Interestingly, though, the vision figure actually said "Act with Honor and honor will aid you". So he acted with honor, trusting Sadeas, and was betrayed. But honor, in the form of Kaladin and bridge 4, aided him. Thus he was able to resolve his confusion, form a plan to move forward and join forces with Kaladin. Could the vision figure actually have been responding to the question somehow? When Syl speaks to Kaladin, the other people around can't hear. So there is direct spren to mind communication. Kaladin's powers are spren abilities that Syl shares with him. Maybe he will develop the ability to communicate directly with Syl or maybe he already can, and he just hasn't figured out how to use the ability. I believe Brandon reveals that the Radiants can communicate silently in the midnight essence vision. When Dalinar joins the Radiants in fighting the Midnight Essence, the text says, "The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar...". Why would he use the phrase "turned to her companion", if not to indicate silent communication? Later in the same encounter, the female Radiant "looked to the side, expression growing distant. 'Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He --'" This seems like Brandon revealing a non-verbal communication ability. So the Radiants could be communicating with spren. As he develops, Kaladin may be able to communicate privately with Syl. I think we are seeing the same thing with Jasnah. When she soulcasts, she communicates with a spren to access Shadesmar, but she doesn't say anything out loud. Likewise, in her second trip to Shadesmar, Shallan communicates with the truthspren telepathically as follows: "Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me? Yes, always, a whisper came in response." Szeth can only hold stormlight for a tenth as long as Kaladin (let me know if you want quotes). So merging with the spren doesn't necessarily go with more advanced stormlight fusing abilities. I believe Brandon has said that something different is happening with Szeth. I don't believe that Szeth has a direct relationship with a spren (Nahel Bond). I think Szeth is accessing his windrunner abilities somehow like ardents can use soulcasters without talking to spren to go to Shadesmar. If an Honorspren had been associating with Szeth, I believe it would have broken the bond due to his actions. This still doesn't prove that Kaladin and Syl won't merge. I endorse (and upvote) Windrunner's explanation of Syl's sentience as a splinter of a minimally sentient entity. Whether from his physicality or some other aspect of the bond, Syl is gaining Kaladin's cognitive abilities. It seems logical that as the bond grows stronger, she would only gain sentience (cognitive aspect) and not merge with Kaladin.

Humans on Roshar. I think there are surprises coming (this comment brought to you by a master of the obvious ) . Honor seems to be associated with the Vorin peoples. The Vorin peoples may have come from someplace else: the Tranquilline Halls. What kind of planet would you call a hall? Do the people live in underground tunnels? Is it a spacecraft? A hollowed-out asteroid? I don't think it is the spiritual realm. Clueless, I am. Edit: I've got it. Honor's Vorin people are hobbits! In this alternate universe Sharkey/Saruman chases them out. So Odium=Saruman. /joking The Makibaki (sp) origin story suggests that they are part native. Some of the remaining peoples could easily be native. With their interesting physical characteristics, it is easy for me to imagine Cultivation helping or wholly creating the Dysian Aimians, the Parshmen and the Parshendi. The Parshendi and Parshmen, who sing synchronized to a beat that the Alethi can't hear. The carapace of the Parshendi could be a highstorm adaptation. What if the Parsh peoples have something that functions like gemhearts, so their common rhythm is the rhythm of the Spiritual Realm and their connection gets renewed with every highstorm? If they were connected to the Spiritual Realm, it could help explain their reverence for the dead. It seems to me that they could be native to Roshar and particularly likely that Cultivation could be involved in their creation and/or evolution. All baseless speculation, but it might be best not to treat all Rosharian peoples as having a common origin. This comment is relevent to some of the discussion, but if people feel this posting is too far from the thread purpose, please let me know and accept my apologies.

Thanks! I hadn't seen that before (not in paperback). Interesting that although only five are Vorin, all have symmetric names. The intersection of Makabakam, Sela Tales and Valhav looks like an interesting spot to place an inaccessible city. Kharbranth is Vorin, presumably the capital of Thalath, but the Thaylen are described as pagan. Presumably Makabakam is the fifth Vorin kingdom.

Just a few points based on my failing memories: Kharbranth - Taravangian's kingdom - is listed as one of the Vorin kingdoms by Shallan when she is buying books to get accepted by Jasnah. Szeth has killed a non-Vorin leader, perhaps the Selay Gerontarch. I think that may be what Kaladin witnessed in the highstorm vision/dream. An interesting related question is: What/which/where were the ten silver kingdoms and which of them were the five Vorin kingdoms. Vorin: Alethela, Jah Keved, Natanatan, Kharbranth, ? (Maybe the place where the Dawnsingers/Parshendi were, possibly north of Dawn's Shadow) Non-Vorin: An Emuli confederacy based near Sesemalex Dar, The Thaylens, the Herdazians, The Selays north of the Emuli, Something around Iri, Rira, Reshi. I discount the possibility of Shinovar being one of the silver kingdoms because: without stormlight voidbringers wouldn't have been as much of a problem, the stone shamans seem to deny the existence of void bringers and they may not even be a kingdom.

I agree with Roamer that the Ghostbloods could be associated with the ardentia. Obviously, some of them are not ardents, as we see from Shallan's family's inclusion. This thread also has some relevent discussion. I take the liberty of requoting below. To me, the money quote about Kabsal's motivation is in chapter 45, talking to Shallan about Jasnah: Not a great thing for a would-be assassin to say while trying to sneak into position. Dalinar's visions are available to others (one of the death quotes mentions someone else who had been having similar visions). They could have been the motivation for the Hierocracy takeover in the first place. They could be motivating the Ghostbloods now. On the other hand, I think Kabsal may not have been a fan of the Radiants. The "broadcasting" of the message to "Unite ..." by Honor has the potential to set up serious contention among those who receive it. When the Sunmaker remade Vorinism, the Ghostbloods could have been a resistant group. They could be still trying to unite the world. The Ghostbloods seem to be rolling in priceless Soulcasters, Shardplate and Shardblades. The Hierocracy would have been in a position to hide some of the missing items before the Sunmaker took them over. I doubt that the Ghostbloods and Taravangian are the same organization. Taravangian is clearly studying Jasnah, but I think he still sees her as a potential tool, not an imminent threat. The Ghostbloods seem to be trying to kill her. Taravangian's faction also seems to be much more effective than the Ghostbloods.

At the risk of repeating points made elsewhere and building on kari-no-sugata's comment, Kaladin really has all the pieces to mount an effective defence: He knows that infused gems are just windrunner super-power-ups. His own windrunner abilities could be used. He will be learning more about windrunner powers with the Bridge 4 experiments. He is responsible for Dalinar's safety. With Gavilar's fate and Szeth's recent rampage, the "Assassin in White" will be one of the foremost dangers, and he could be briefed (lengthened?) on Gavilar's opponent and the Veden king and highprince opponent. He saw Szeth in action during his highstorm dream. Responsible for Dalinar's safety, he would logically be working on Shardblade and Shardplate defenses. Szeth is tasked with acting publicly, so whatever defenses Kaladin envisions will likely be active. What will Kaladin do? Limiting the stormlight available seems like an excellent idea Presumably there is already a watch for Shin entering the Shattered Plains encampment, but extra attention given an understanding of windrunner powers or spren (if they can recruit more) enhancing the entry checkpoint(s) could allow them to detect Szeth smuggling himself into the camps. Ambushing Szeth seems like it would make it easier to run him out of stormlight. Learning more about his windrunner powers and training bridge 4 in countermeasures seems helpful. If Dalinar and Adolin become aware of his abilities, many interesting scenarios pop up (more if Shallan/Jasnah get to the Shattered Plains before Szeth): Kaladin practicing with shardplate that glows telltale blue, Adolin practicing against a windrunner, others getting in touch with their radiant powers and being able to help, at least by draining spheres. How can Szeth be captured/turned? A dilemma where he is forced to violate the conditions of his sentence (not give up sword, not kill self) and he cracks. Loss of belief in Stone Shamanism. He is resigned to the world ending soon at the hands of the voidbringers. If he saw a possibility of effectively acting to stop the voidbringers, he might be enlisted. Kaladin sets up a situation where he gets stranded without stormlight, and Adolin (or Renarin?!) in Shardplate drops his Shardblade to capture him by breaking his arms or something similar (this one is my second favorite). The awesome thing that BS will actually do (my favorite). Obviously, there are problems: The alethi nobility's death wish-like adoption of more and more fabrials Kaladin's status and antagonism toward lighteyes in general Adolin's antipathy toward Kaladin Kaladin's ignorance about his own powers The short time before Szeth arrives Brandon has assembled so many juicy ingredients that I can't wait to see what he cooks up.

I love the creativity of the Cusicesh idea. I struggle with tying it in thematically with Radiant ascension. I can't see the Radiants being created by the Heralds, as they were apparently started during Nohadon's lifetime, but after the post-Desolation vision. Since the Heralds only appeared during Desolations and Desolations were hundreds of years apart, I think the first Radiants had to be created without heraldic intervention.

I think it is specifically cognition (as in Shadesmar) that she lacks without the Nahel bond. As I recall, what she offers to do is to stop the changes she is making to Kaladin. I presume that to be the Nahel bond. I think it gives each of them some aspects of the other. Kaladin gets the ability to infuse, lash, stormride, magnify his voice, etc. Syl gets cognition. The books provide a detailed evolutionary path of her evolving cognitive development, including understanding lies, sarcasm, white lies, remembering her name, remembering the kind of spren she is. If she dissolves the Nahel bond, then presumably they both revert.

Well, I just found another quote that seems relevant to understanding Szeth. At the end of the battle with Gavilar, Szeth expresses some interesting thoughts: I interpret this as meaning that Szeth believes in the imminent final desolation. He may have tried to do something to avert it before, but he currently feels hopeless and is resigned to the occurrence. In conjunction with the honor quotes, this indicates to me that he believes in the Voidbringers and since his honor demands that they exist, the act(s) he is being punished for tie into the Voidbringers and the coming desolation. What do you guys think?

Well, if Szeth can touch a mistborn, he can probably slice through them with a sword, gg . Otherwise, if he lashes the ground to be attractive, then why doesn't he stick to it? I think it's because he's invested. Well, I assume an active mistborn is invested also. Remember how he couldn't lash the Shardbearers in the battle against the veden king, so he lashed the table under them. Why a mistborn would land in that particular spot is also a problem for Szeth. A mistborn can also just drop a coin and push off it if he somehow got "stuck". What am I missing? I miss many things and this could easily be one of them. I haven't seen this at all. The very rich use gems to illuminate secure indoor locations. Gems are valuable. Nobody leaves them around outside because they would be stolen. Yes, even the bridgemen use their few chips for illumination, but they bring them with them and take them when they go (and bridgemen chips don't provide much in the way of either light or stormlight). I would like to see the textual support for the notion of Rosharian gem "streetlights". While currency is used in both systems, the Rosharian gems have much more than token value, whereas metal is everywhere as a fundamental construction material. A coin's value is largely symbolic. Given your contention that mistborn cannot accelerate while airborne, this could be very relevant. You make some other very thoughtful points, but I don't have time now to advance this discussion further. Cheers!

Wow, Brendan, I am really impressed at the thought and effort you've put into this. The only thing I'd really quibble with is that humans will likely fight in a human environment, so maybe there should be some iron or steel points to push or pull. If they start in melee range and Szeth has already retrieved his sword there is no telling what might happen, Szeth is fast and deadly, but atium is OP'ed and mistborn are maneuverable. Indoors, I think he might be able to surprise an unwary mistborn and it would be basically up to the author's discretion. Beyond melee range, atium and ranged weapons seem to favor the mistborn. I can't even see it lasting very long. However, assuming that Szeth can somehow defend himself, I believe that his inefficient use of stormlight, the way its use can be detected and his melee range would allow a mistborn to win a war of "attrition". I am assuming that Szeth's defense requires the use of stormlight. Obviously, not if Szeth is given infinite stormlight. I must be missing a few things. I don't follow this. Mistborn have ranged weapons, Szeth is limited to melee. They can both accelerate, Szeth still has mass and momentum and closing in three dimensions is difficult. As soon as his target moves laterally those multiple lashings pull him away. New lashings consume more stormlight and his existing momentum reduces their effectiveness. Szeth has to draw stormlight when a mistborn approaches to within ranged range(?), whereas the mistborn only needs to consume resources if Szeth starts glowing and pursues. Pursuit would use even more stormlight, putting Szeth in a Catch-22 situation. Now, if the mistborn were to attack with ranged weapons while Szeth pursues, Szeth would have merely reduced his reaction time and increased his distance from any defensive assets. What am I missing?

In addition to the point dyring made, there are three reasons Szeth's stormlight would run out first. Szeth leaks it quickly (a few minutes, vs Kaladin who leaks it at least an order of magnitude more slowly) Once you infuse, it goes away whether you use it or not, whereas a mistborn can burn it only when needed Your opponent can see whether you are using it - a mistborn can approach, see if you start glowing, stay away until you stop, lather, rinse, repeat. I do think that Szeth knows that he can fly, but I doubt that he can catch a mistborn.

He can drop a coin and push it, just push one where Szeth will be or several where he might be. After the coins have killed Szeth, he could wait for the lashing to dissipate if he didn't feel like pushing at a coin sitting wherever gravity was pulling him. Vin was experienced in fighting with and against atium, whereas Szeth would have no understanding of it. Stormlight healing is slow, as we saw with Gavilar, so Kel can do damage much faster than Szeth heals.

Given Atium, why would Kelsier let him do that? A mistborn burning anything is also likely invested. With Szeth's fragile mental state, one has to wonder about the effects of rioting or soothing also. Given the superior ranged weapons of the mistborn, he'd be foolish to close with Szeth. He can also just wait for Szeth to run out of stormlight. It seems at least even, if not tilting to Kelsier. Atium is a powerful trump, and, given the Heralds' prohibition on predicting the future (the essence of Voidbringing), likely none of the Radiant powers allow future sight. I suspect even Jasnah's soulcasting at a distance could not overcome the investiture of a mistborn.

From the interview database: There are ways to parse things to rationalize these quotes to make them mean other things, but Occam keeps cutting me when I think anything other than that Honor, Cultivation and Odium were the three Shards on Roshar being referred to . Speaking of relationships between Shards, the cracked idea I had was that the purelaker story was sort of true and Tanavast and Rayse were brothers.

Well, three ruled, but now the Broken One reigns. The voice in the highstorm infomed Kaladin that "Odium reigns". I doubt Cultivation is still active as a "shard plus human" on Roshar. Possible: Cultivation holder dead, Shard intact Cultivation holder dead, Shard splintered Cultivation holder and Shard fled (but, although Odium has traveled to destroy other Shards, we have not seen Shards abandoning their planets, so I doubt this one) With the value of this opinion and $5, you can get a coffee flavored milkshake at Starbucks .

Interesting post, Telcontar. I think Shaman is a good guess at what he might have been. The Truthless punishment seems to go beyond being punished for a mistake. Brandon uses the word betrayal, so being a Stone Shaman and acting fundamentally contrary to Stone Shamanism would logically be a worse crime than the same action taken by a non-Stone Shaman. The main problem I have with the theory that Stone Shamanism is opposed to Voidbringers is encapsulated by the question: To me the most intriguing quote is the one about the Voidbringers. I believe it is preceded by the thought that the Voidbringers were able to retain stormlight perfectly. An implication of this is that the Voidbringers' use of stormlight was significant. But, as I understand it, there is effectively no stormlight in Shinovar (I assume: no highstorms=no stormlight). (Off-topic: Does this imply that Odium's magic system makes use of stormlight?) Does this mean that the Voidbringers were not active in Shinovar? If so, then maybe the Stone Shamans (Shamen?) really don't believe in their existence, hence the punishment that denies their existence. But his punishment doesn't seem to have anything to do with Voidbringers. Does the act that he is being punished for relate to the Voidbringers? If the Voidbringers are proven to exist, does it invalidate his punishment? His honor demands that the Voidbringers exist. I read that as also saying that his blasphemous act related to the Voidbringers. If his honor was involved, hopefully it means that he did something intended to harm or impede them. I think he believes he did the right thing when he acted to precipitate his punishment. Consider the following: He was once "very respected" in Shinovar. Fighting people are not respected in Shinovar. He knows Kammar, a form of martial arts fighting. He has a sophisticated understanding of surgebinding, suggesting that he was trained in that also. He has a unique Shardblade that turns his eyes blue temporarily when he carries it. He is very skilled in his use of the Shardblade, also suggesting training. He does surgebinding, but has no fabrial other than the Shardblade, nor an apparent relationship with a spren. In fact, his lashings are incompatible with Shardplate, which is not so for the Radiants. He doesn't think his father should be sullied by association with him, but has no such qualms about his grandfather. How does one even practice surgebinding in Shinovar? With no stormlight to work with, it seems impossible. Telcontar makes a good argument about all his training being with the Shamans. As religious functionaries, they might be permitted under certain circumstances to capture stormlight, bring it to Shinovar and train with it. Or they could train outside Shinovar. It would seem strange to sentence someone for a blasphemous offense and then train them in surgebinding. A possibility is that he got the ideas that led him to commit his crime from other people. I imagine his grandfather to be among them, so he doesn't mind dragging his grandfather down by association. By implication, his father had nothing to do with it. If so, there must be a subversive thread among the Shin. Some of his training could have been with the Shin Underground. As he starts the assassination of Gavilar, he thinks: So: he has killed other stonewalkers previously other non-stonewalkers have seen him in action and survived To me this implies that his surgebinding training must have been among the Shin (or he killed the stonewalkers that trained him, but I don't like that idea). At least that is what my reading of the tea leaves reveals today .