hoser

Snap-upvote! Good catch Lightflame. I was so distracted by the jerk who would insist on making an extra trip before dinner and then complain about the cost that I ignored the other implication. There is an implication that the charges were growing. There are other implications of this quote. Whoever wrote it likely wrote it post-Recreance. Therefore the Radiants were using Urithiru as a hub within one lifetime of the Recreance. But I believe Jasnah reports that they abandoned Urithiru pre-Recreance. Does that give us multiple events for that timeline? The organized and disciplined way in which the Radiants quit leads me to believe that they were not corrupted at the end. If they were corrupt, they had a great gig, and they could have ruled and pillaged for a long time. As for the main question, a completely baseless bit of speculation would be that they had some huge magical thing to do or make to: Communicate with Honor Determine if Honor was alive Defend Honor Hide the bulk of their weapons Put themselves in stasis so they could be brought back when needed Put their weapons and armor in stasis so they could be brought back when needed Travel somewhere Kill bureaucrats Empower a set of catquisitors or Cats Radiant This would imply that the Recreance or one of it's triggering events was planned for long in advance.

I'm sorry if I wrote unclearly. What I meant was that I believe neither the Radiants nor Urithiru existed at the time of Dalinar's vision, which I consider to be immediately after a Desolation. As we saw from the opening scene of the book, the Heralds would have left almost immediately. Nohadon is just starting to ask the questions that will lead to understanding the ideals, forming the Radiants and establishing Urithiru. The next Desolation and the heralds won't be around until long after Nohadon is dead (unless he becomes a Radiant and Radiant longevity is greatly increased). Thus I believe that the heralds weren't involved in setting up the Radiants or Urithiru, as Nohadon helped establish them between desolations.

Nice catch. If he'd been an ardent, he could have written a book. He could have dictated it, but then the women who actually wrote it would have written who knows what as footnotes.

I like the theory. I agree that WoK contains the ideals. I think Honor created the ideals before Nohadon. Nohadon discovered them, then wrote them down. I believe that Urithiru and the Radiants were established during Nohadon's lifetime, which was between desolations, so the heralds wouldn't have been around. Once the Radiants were established, they were stronger than other surgebinders and could detect surgebinding (as Kaladin detected Szeth during the Highstorm). I believe that they would have stopped unethical surgebinding. So, before long, they would have been the only surgebinders.

There's quite a bit here. His relationship w/a spren is not as far along as Kaladin's with Syl. It seems comparable to when Kaladin was fighting back in Alethkar (thank you Voidus). Syl was playing tricks on him, trying to get noticed and yet he was doing incredible things. The two scenes where his armor seems to glow are the Chasmfiend fight and when he saves Kaladin and his crew by wiping out some Parshendi archers. If you don't find a hint that he got some special strength in the Chasmfiend scene, your copy must be very different than mine. The fast healing goes with infusing, which may or may not be something his order does (some people think he will be Resolute/Builder). The stuff dodging Kaladin seems to be a lashing, which would be a windrunner (and one other order) thing. Since Dalinar is wearing armor that is full of charged gems, I'm not sure we would notice if he was drawing a bit of stormlight himself. Kaladin tends to have only a few smaller gems, so their dun-ness is much more noticeable. All of this could also be said of Kaladin when he was in Amaram's army and Syl was hanging out w/him. Szeth is not getting his abilities from a spren. Some think his Oathstone is the source of his abilities, others think it's his sword. The Radiants in Dalinar's visions seemed to be able to use their abilities when wearing their armor. Well, o-kay. I'm certainly no spren psychologist, but if a spren found something he was doing over the last six years attractive, I don't know that they might not stick around. I don't even know that a spren would be aware of his previous history. It's possible. We'll see. I can't wait for Stormlight 2!

We have a vision wherein two orders of radiants abandon their weapons and armor and march away. What happened to them then? Possibilities: Merged w/society and their descendents are lighteyes (but wouldn't they have been recognized and we'd know that that was what happened?) Mass suicide/vow of Chastity (but why walk away to commit suicide rather than do it right away) Form a Radiant society somewhere else secretly Form a non-Radiant society somewhere else I think the descendents are somewhere and we will find them. On the subject of bloodlines, why is Kaladin such a good fighter? He is not a lighteyes. His fighting abilities manifested as a child before his behavior was particularly honorable. He was also an amazing fighter in the army before Syl was attracted to him. Is it inheritance, or was he chosen somehow? Tien doesn't seem to have the same abilities.

Some of us think he may have already attracted a spren. You might enjoy this thread.

from the interview database: If Odium knows that they can be unsplintered, he must still think it worthwhile. If it takes active interactions to unsplinter a Shard, then depopulating a planet might still be effective.

I think a big question will be who ends up as Honor's champion. The leading candidates (from what we've seen) seem to be Dalinar and Kaladin. Jasnah and Adolin seem less likely. Kaladin was more of a leader at the Tower and is of the leadership order, but he is young and has some issues to work through. Dalinar is a Highprince and seems to be an effective leader also. If Kaladin eventually became the leader of the reformed radiants, I think his status would be elevated to the point that his birth status would not matter. A logical way to reconcile his authority with Alethi society would be for him to marry Princess Jasnah, particularly if something happened to Elhokar. That said, I don't see either Kaladin or Jasnah having a nominal marriage. Their differing ages (Jasnah is described as being 34 on p75 when Shallan is about to meet her, whereas Kaladin is 19 when he gets to the Shattered plains) seems like it might interfere with their getting together more from the point of view of them being at different stages of life and having different goals. Still, if that's what Brandon wanted to do, I'm sure he could make it work.

What a fun theory! For me, Odium has splintered four Shards (the Godlike objects) and seems like enough of a heavy for team Radiant, Hoid and the splinters of Honor and Cultivation to deal with. Occam's razor cuts me when I imagine another heavy. The 16 Shards each have the power of Creation. One could extrapolate that Adonalsium was the Creator. There could have been an opponent, who might be involved with breaking Adonalsium into Shards. I don't see any supporting evidence. I must be missing something, because I don't see the relevence of the Radiant quote, except that it uses the word "three". The three reigning Shards were apparently working together enough to have an Oathpact, but I see that as more of a Geneva Convention governing their conflict. I don't see any supporting evidence for another force. Honor and Odium could both be reigning while fighting each other, much like Bonaparte and George III reigned in Europe in the 19th century.

I like the list, but have some suggested adds for completeness. The Ghostbloods may be should be listed rather than just mentioned as associates of Thaidakar given what we know they've done with Shallan's family, attempting to kill Amaram and attempting to assassinate Jasnah. The Stone Shaman seem to deny the existence of Voidbringers and inflicted Szeth on the world. They could be a problem, particularly if they are manufacturing Shardblades. The ten deaths, of which Midnight Essence is one, and which can apparently be summoned. I think the thunderclasts are another of them. They may have particular associations with particular unmade.

If we assume that the two orders we saw at feverstone keep are the only ones with the Shardblades and Shardplate and that's all there is, then 600 sets. If all orders each have 300, then 3000 sets. If all orders have them, have normal lifespans, are buried with them, and each new knight gets a new set, then many, many thousands. I think even the 600 sets are a significant shardic investment, and the 3000 would definitely be. My point is that while 3. is appealing, I doubt it works like that (unless the plate and blades decay underground) just from the point of view of Shardic energy (not to mention the danger of grave robbers, etc).

And what exactly do you mean by "Kaladin's Spear"? Actually, I'm not sure I want to know. In terms of age and availability, Szeth/Jasnah and Kaladin/Shallan seem obvious, probably too obvious. I see a significant chance that either Szeth or Jasnah is not interested in the opposite gender. Both Kaladin and Shallan tend to make wisecracks, so their interactions could be fun to read. Given the already antagonistic relationship between Kaladin and Adolin and their inevitable rivalry for Dalinar's attention, any triangle involving them will be juicy. With two five-book arcs to the series, presumably the first five books end with team Radiant surviving (barely) the Desolation and the next five have them improving things somehow (restoring a Shard or two?). I think we can expect some major characters to explore their arcs and die toward the end of Book 5. I think we lose Kaladin or Dalinar in book 5. Elhokar seems so flawed that I don't think he'll last long.

It seems to me that the Shardblades and Shardplate represented a significant investment of the power of creation. If new knights made their own weapons, the weapons of knights who died would have been destroyed somehow to preserve Shardic investment. I read the knights in the Midnight Essence vision as implying that they recruited in the buildup to a desolation. Thus there would be a peacetime size and larger Desolation numbers. Kaladin was a natural with a spear. I don't see why he couldn't be equally "natural" with a sword and pick it up quickly enough to work effectively in less than a book or two. If he were superbly talented in all aspects of fighting, that leaves me wondering about his genetic endowment. Does "Child of Honor" imply something about his ancestors? It also seems to me that the Shardblades and Shardplate are a destabilizing force, so any dictator would want to limit the number in circulation. Thus the Hierocracy and the Sunmaker would each have reason to hide or destroy them.

This is really quite intriguing. There are so many details that really don't hang together! Here's one chain: If Shallan's father wanted to kill "Mother", he could do it anytime. And if he had, Shallan would have seen him as the monster. Conclusion: Shallan's father didn't kill "Mother". With all the bodies, there is obviously a conflict. Given that "Mother" seems to have been killed with a Shardblade, either there was an accident or a party to the conflict that was not allied with Shallan's father killed "Mother". I ignore the accident possibility for now because it makes conclusions impossible. Conclusion: An opponent of Shallan's father had a Shardblade. What happened to the Shardbearer? Possibilities: Shardbearer left (but why kill Shallan's mother while leaving her and her father) Shardbearer is in the safe (but why would they go inside the safe). Shardbearer killed by people using conventional weapons (but why do most of the people who are dead seem to have been killed by conventional weapons). Shardbearer killed by something we haven't seen yet, possibly the glowing "monster" in the safe or another Shardbearer. My speculation is that the Shardbearer was in a group opposed to Shallan's father, got killed somehow and that Shallan's father then kept the Shardblade until Shallan killed him and took it for herself. On top of the other questions: Why does Shallan feel guilty (she must have been involved in the killing somehow)? What is the glowing monster in the safe? Who are the parties and why are they meeting? Did anybody besides Shallan and her father and possibly the "monster" in the safe survive? It will be interesting to see, in a year or so, how our speculations match Brandon's words.

My nearly baseless speculation is that it is one of the ten deaths - sort of the opposite of the midnight essence in appearance, but capable of being summoned similarly

I beg to differ (paperback p1170): He is around effectively infinite Stormlight batteries bearded and begemmed parshendi, so his power is only limited by his desire to be unobtrusive.

Wow MadRand, I thought I had gone over the top on wild speculation, but I think you've outdone me. I struggle with some little details. These people have metals. I assume that the safe would be made of metal. Even if a Soulcaster glows brightly enough in the moment of use (which I doubt), I don't think anyone is closed in the safe using the soulcaster, so it shouldn't be glowing. Shallan says that the Shardblade was the fruit of her most horrific act, which seems to be the murder of her father. Her father is still alive in this flashback, so I think she gets it later when she kills her father. The other people seem to have been reduced to bloody corpses, not smoke, crystal, fire or any of the ten essences (the easiest things to soulcast), so I don't think they were killed via Soulcaster.

Kaladin does some other things. He can use stormlight to project his voice loudly as when he gets Adolin's attention in the climactic Tower battle. He can use stormlight to survive a fall that should injure him as he does when he hides the armor under the bridge. I believe that both of these are "non-adhesion" applications of the pressure surge. Syl also demonstrates other abilities. Syl has the ability to make an attention getting snap. I think that is her version of a pressure wave. She frequently walks on surfaces sideways. I think that relates to her version of the lashings. She can also communicate with Kaladin without others knowing. I think that Kaladin will gain that ability also. This communication ability is not specific to windspren as we see from Shallan and Jasnah's examples, and I think all Radiants will be able to communicate mentally as they advance. Syl can detect large groups of people as she does when they approach the Shattered Plains. I think at least some of the Radiants will develop detection abilities. This may operate somewhat like the detection fabrial the traders use in the interlude.

Cheese Ninja, you're probably right on both counts (stepmother and metaphor). I am just not totally convinced. Shallan is about 17 in WoK. If the flashback was to when she was around 12, she could still be referring to when she was a younger child of, say about 7. Her attitude towards her father in the flashback seems different and the "Mother" isn't necessarily how she would refer to a stepmother. I'm not convinced she's the mother or the stepmother, but mother still seems like a possibility. No good guess here, but wildly speculating, I remember that Szeth claims that voidbringers can hold stormlight perfectly. Somewhere else, there is a reference to voidbringers possessing people. Could it be one of the ten deaths or an infused voidbringer? Could it have possessed Shallan and used her body to commit mayhem? But how do you get it into the safe? I don't think there should be voidbringers yet. If it was 6 years prior, a lot seems to have happened about that time. Her father may have a way of controlling or communicating with it. She and her father seem to be the only survivors. Why are she and her "Mother" there, but not her brothers? The father is crying. I speculate that he is upset at his wife's death. The less blood around her mother and "horrible eyes" seems to hint at a Shardblade, as commented on previously. Did her father use the monster to betray the other men, but one of them used a Shardblade on Mother before he was killed? What could kill a shardblade wielder? Could that be where Shallan's Shardblade came from? Whoa! Stop me before I speculate again! Cheers

Wow! I've just got more questions. Could it be Shallan's mother rather than stepmother? What would make a closed safe glow brightly? No need to put a Shardblade in a safe when you can just drop it. A monster inside the safe? Does that mean that it's alive?

I think it has potential. It hasn't been done because the Alethi don't work together AND it isn't either party's real goal. They need the gemhearts, but the Alethi are also using the battles as a form of attrition. The Parshendi leader appears to be trying to engineer some sort of battlefield confrontation with Dalinar. If the Alethi wanted to Shardbearer rush, they already have the scouts in place. Yes, Shardbearers are faster than scouts, but with a little planning a chain or web of scouts could be set up to guard against traps. They could have an abort signal to keep the Shardbearers out of ambushes or tell them when to retreat.

I meant the ideals, two of which Kaladin commits to in the form of oaths. I think committing to the ideals is effectively taking oaths. To whom? Good question. I don't know that there needs to be a second party that one commits to. There is apparently something observing and providing Shardic power in response. I wonder if a Nahel bond w/a spren is also a precondition for getting the power. I don't think physical people would inhabit the Spiritual Realm long term, so I have trouble seeing the Spiritual Realm as the Tranquilline Halls. But what planet would be called "Halls"? Did Honor make "Halls" in the Spiritual Realm somehow? The Oathpact (I edited the post to clarify also.). I agree that the Shardic energy involved with the Oathpact brought Taln back and may be able to be tapped into further. To the extent that Odium has free will, I don't think that he will adhere to the Oathpact's provisions unless it suits his purposes. But really, I've got more questions than answers, which is what I get for speculating on the basis of so little evidence. I hope this helps.

What is the Oathpact? From pact we gather that it is an agreement between parties. The "oath" part is more mysterious. Did the parties take oaths? Does the Radiant oaths relate? Honor is big on oaths, do the other parties use oaths too? Who are the parties? I would say the Shardholders Honor and Odium, plus maybe Cultivation. What are the terms? The Heralds seem clearly to be affected parties. The Honorblades seem to relate also. The Heralds may predate Rosharian Shardic settlement, seem to be immortal, are subject to torture if they die or yield themselves between desolations, are brought back just before Desolations and I imagine have extraordinary powers. The Voidbringers and desolations seem to be other aspects of the Oathpact more under Odium's influence. Is surgebinding part of the Oathpact? Are honorspren and the Radiants part of the oathpact or are they an independant initiative of Honor? According to Elwynn's theory, Nohadon found a Dawnshard and reconfigured the rules for surgebinding. The problem I have had with this theory is that I imagine the Dawnshards to be the Shards of Adonalsium. If Tanavast gave up Honor he would die and I think Tanavast lived past Nohadon's time. That leaves two possibilities that I can only explain by referring to the Mistborn series. If the Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and Odium, and Odium has already shattered Honor and Cultivation, how can the Oathpact still exist? Why would Odium's actions be constrained in any way? I can think of the following possibilities. Odium will be shattered if he violates the Oathpact. The Oathpact is an irrevocable commitment of the energy that would be needed to destroy Rosharian civilization. Without that energy, Odium is unable to destroy the world. Destroying Rosharian civilization outside of the Oathpact terms would mean never getting that investment of power back (or at least not for a long time). If we follow this speculative chain, then the Oathpact as a living agreement between active parties is clearly done, but the Shardic investments continue. Taln and the final desolation are constrained by the terms of the Shardic investment. The remaining Heralds or anybody bearing the Honorblades may be able to opt into the use of the Shardic power.

I think you are asking a key question. The following threads discuss the oathpact, but largely make assumptions about the question you are asking: In this thread, this thread (one post) and this thread, the nature of the Oathpact is discussed. In this thread, Elwynn spins an amazing theory about Nohadon changing the Oathpact, with much relevant discussion. The nature of the Oathpact seems key to answering this question. For now, I just provide the links and an upvote. Later, if I can think coherently on the subject, I may edit in some speculation. I am curious about your point 4. Does the first sentence mean the same as "So I presume that "The Oathpact" itself had not ended."?