hoser

This being Roshar, there would have to be ten . I think Telcontar's post provides the real answer. As for what the Shin believe, it seems that they are as rotating fastenered up as anyone else on that world. Apparently, the Stone Shamen deny the existence of Voidbringers. Another group, which Szeth must have been involved with and may have included his grandfather, very much believes in the Voidbringers. The punishment of being Truthless doesn't just punish Szeth. It is an act of staggering irresponsibility toward the rest of the world. It provided a weapon of staggering power to people not morally equipped to use it well. In effect, it is like the Radiants dumping their Blades and Plate for anyone to pick up. From the Prologue, p 13:

Dunny: dark violet (ch 46, p 813). According to Sigzil, violet is characteristically Veden and not Alethi. Interesting that Navani and her daughter Jasnah have violet eyes, but her son Elhokar's are yellow. Shallan, who is veden, has blue eyes. Some of the lighteyes may be descended from the Radiants. Others certainly descended from those who picked up the weapons after the Recreance.

Szeth describes it as long and thin. He is relatively short. Under the influence of stormlight, I imagine he would be strong enough to use it. I don't remember anything about people not being able to use Shardblades due to their height. The female Stoneward in the midnight essence vision and Shallan don't seem to see it as a problem. The main bullet hole for me is that the Heralds were already involved in the Oathpact. The blades may even have been involved also. Keeping the blades (a benefit) might have interfered with their ending the Oathpact or drawn them to the place of torture. Whereas some random truthless born 4500 years after the Oathpact ended might not have the same problem because he had no other connection to the Oathpact. Now this is a cool theory. The Shin are making new Shardblades. Interesting. Not only do the eyes get permanently lightened, but your descendants eyes keep the change (sDNA or something). This is the basis of the Alethi and Veden nobility. When Kaladin kills the Shardbearer his men call him a lighteyes in anticipation of him picking up the sword. At the end, Hoid comments that there was a good reason for lighteyes having been in charge. Or look at the Recreance vision. Dalinar talks to one of the knights after the Blades and Plates are abandoned. His eyes are nearly white. But not the Heralds and their Honorblades. Witness Taln at the end, his eyes are dark brown. If I lightened brown, I would get something like light brown, tan or amber. For me, it would be something like mixing brown and white paint. I wouldn't get blue. There are two points I was apparently failing to make: His eyes go from dark green to light blue when he takes up the sword. But this isn't the first time he took up the sword. So his eyes must revert when he stops carrying it. This is not how normal Shardblades work. Blue is the color of your namesake order. The one whose surges he is able to use without oaths or spren. I think it's a hint that the sword is related to the surgebinding abilities he uses. Really, I'm just applying Occam's razor to the problem of the unusual sword and the unexplained surgebinding abilities. Your idea about the Shin fabricating Shardblades in the contemporary Rosharian era seems more interesting. Please let me know what I've gotten wrong here.

All I can find is this (p 14): Where does it say that it specifically fits him? Okay. I don't want to be defensive. But I am confused (not uncommon). It seems to me that you are saying that the blade is too short to possibly be Jezrien's but not unnaturally short. Are you trying to have it both ways? Yeah, the Heralds didn't think they could keep them. It's possible someone else would get sucked into the Oathpact if they picked up the Honorblades, but I am not aware of any supporting evidence for that theory. The Honorblade theory explains the following: The Honorblades are described as unique. Szeth describes his sword as unique. It is smaller and two-sided, whereas the normal Shardblades are single-sided. It turns his eyes blue (your color!) temporarily where a normal Shardblade would lighten his eyes permanently without changing the color. If not from the sword, then how do you explain his gaining the surges corresponding to the eye color change the sword gives him? I can't prove anything. Please offer some textual evidence that my theory is wrong. I love being right, but if I am wrong, I want to know it.

Yes. The eyes become a lighter version of the same color and stay that way. Szeth's sword changes the color of his eyes to blue while he carries it, after which they revert to their previous color. paperback chapter I-3 p210: Edited: added quote

If you're making a list, the parshmen and parshendi could be on it. I have an unsupported theory that the parshendi are native, with the armor being a highstorm adaptation. In addition to the armor and skin, they have the chanting in time (is it to the same beat as the stormlight?) and the coordination indicating some form of communication (it seems too far-fetched to think that they have small gemhearts themselves, but I wonder). As far as why is concerned, when Shallan talks to the bookseller, there is a reference to the five Vorin races (although Shallan only knows four of them). Presumably the Vorin races share the history of being expelled from the Tranquilline Halls. Other races might not have that history. If the Heralds were chosen before the expulsion from the Tranquilline halls, that might explain their not fitting the Rosharian racial norms.

Good catches, guys! These do seem to be loose ends. Heralds would be an explanation for the extraneous and discordant details. On the relevance of an accent (expanding on the point lil_literalist made above): Taln was being tortured for 4500 years or so. When he died, people spoke dawnchant. When he returns his first words are: So presumably Heralds can communicate without accents or having to study the changes in the language over time. Thus the lack of an accent could support heraldry. One other reference drew my attention. In the final scene between Taralongnameian and Szeth, T makes a reference to a Lifebrother. The heralds seem to be immortal (not dying of old age). If one had gone to Shinovar, Lifebrother might be a way to refer to an immortal. Szeth was well trained before he ventured out as truthless. A herald could have helped with that. Szeth has a unique sword that turns his eyes blue and (I believe) gives him windrunner powers. A herald in Shinovar would know where the Honorblades are. The Shin could have retrieved some or all of them. This possibility combined with the Niter theory leads to some interesting scenarios. Presumably Niter (if he is Jezrien) didn't die on the Tower because he didn't reappear with Taln. When Szeth comes to publicly kill Dalinar, Niter/Jezrien could be there. Szeth whips out Jezrien's Honorblade and Jezrien does some awesome Herald thing (although, come to think of it, the only things we've seen the heralds do are quit, faint, possibly vandalize artwork and maybe get really plastered). Another interesting thought is that if Niter=Jezrien=head of Cobalt Guard, then if he was serving when Gavilar was assassinated, he might have met the supposed Ishi. Niter might even know how to find Ishi.

One problem we are struggling with seems to be that the blades are obvious signs of Honor's favor and used by the blessed Radiants. Why does Syl disapprove of Dalinar's blade? I do not believe that the blades or plate have been altered, as the technology is beyond any but possibly the Radiants. I don't think Odium would have changed the blades without it being obvious. Similarly to the opening post, I believe that the Syl's disapproval comes from the blades being used for slaughter without the ethical restraints of a five-oath radiant. As the characters advance as Radiants, I believe they will use the blades without Syl having a problem. As to why the items stopped glowing at the Recreance, it could also have been that the Nahel bonds were dissolved at the same time the oaths were abandoned. I think the abandonment by the Radiants is an adequate reason for the glowing to stop. Even if the Radiants had kept their oaths, the armor and blades might have stopped glowing when abandoned. $.02

lil_literalist makes a solid case for Danlan being a spy. Taravangian feels threatened by something that Dalinar is doing recently. Danlan could be the source of that information. It seems to me that there are also other possibilities. Kharbranth, IIRC, is the Rosharian healing center. It is where Kaladin's father studied and where Kaladin had planned to study. I assume that the base of T's spy network is healers. They must have some women if they communicate by writing or at least spanreeds if they communicate by glyphs. Taravangian could be hearing through healers with access to the wounded and maybe at battles with the armies. He could even be hearing from the Parshendi, for all we know. He might not even know about the Highprince for war thing. He could even be reacting to the joint assaults that Dalinar and Sadeas started running weeks before. I think that the ghostbloods are a distinct group from T's cabal because they apparently tried to kill Jasnah where T's group was just studying her. So Danlan could easily be a spy for any of the highprinces, particularly Sadeas; the Ghostbloods and their presumed leader Thaidakar; or the mysterious Restares (who may be associated with some organization of stormwardens).

Amazing how the same set of facts can lead to different constructions. The mind is an amazing tool for constructing theories from limited data. And then I somehow decide that my ideas are correct. It is what he thinks to himself in his second interlude (Ch I-6, paperback p 550): With that motivation for murder, I have difficulty imagining an honorspren maintaining a bond. I don't question that he is surgebinding. I think he knows where he gets his abilities, and was trained in their use. I am not aware of any evidence that there is a spren Nahel-bonded to him. I believe, but I can't support strongly, that his abilities come from being linked to Jezrien's Honorblade.

This seems entirely possible. I proposed, and preferred, but not to the point of espousal, that the Radiants participated in the creation of the Blades and Plate. It just seems more in line with the way Honor works to me. I bind myself to something, sacrifice for it, and am rewarded. Kaladin works hard to protect and an honorspren binds him. The heralds compete to be chosen on Proving day, agree to be tortured as part of the Oathpact, fight whenever they are not tortured, and are given power and immortality. By acting relatively morally, Adolin and Dalinar are chosen by Ryshadium. So having to help make the armor and weapons would be more of an earning than a bribery economy. Either way seems to fit the facts, as far as I can tell. Yeah. Nor do spanreeds or soulcasters, to compare to similar modern fabrials. I don't think either Honor or the Radiants wanted to create a bunch of Nightbloods. When they replace a cracked gem in a Soulcaster, do they have to catch a spren in a particular cut of gem? Don't we already know that the Radiant-era and modern Rosharian fabrials work differently? Me too. Hey look! A bird! Szeth himself claims to not be a Windrunner. His motivation, to have his soul remain in the stone rather than be annihilated, does not seem particularly honorable, nor do his acts conform to any honorable oaths, explicit or implicit. Apparently the act he is being punished for harmed the Voidbringers somehow, so that act was presumably honorable. Doesn't really make sense to me. Anyway, I believe there is WOB on this here (see #24). The involuntary splinters of Devotion are the only ones I know of. They seem to me to fit the Shardic intent very closely. Data, but not proof .

Okay. I will try not to be defensive. Was this for me? I thought I was speculating directly about two points in your opening post. Assuming that that part was not for me and on to your response. No. I don't. I do believe that Shardblades and Shardplate are fabrials of a sort. I believe that they were created using techniques not available to the artifabrians that Navani knows. They have gem and non-gem components, they do magical things, they use stormlight, they do not clone themselves or exchange genetic material to make little Shardblades and Shardplate. Ergo, they are fabrials. Are you assuming that the first Radiants had Shardplate and Shardblades? I believe that between the Nohadon vision and the midnight essence vision, some combination of Honor/Tanavast and the Radiants created the following "fabrials": Shardblades, Shardplate, the Regrowth fabrial that the Stoneward uses in the midnight essence vision. I believe that the Radiants helped establish Urithiru during Nohadon's lifetime. I believe that the Radiants at some point helped create other "fabrials" including Soulcasters and Oathgates for teleportation. As I recall, he says something like: "The ancients didn't have fabrials, I'm sure of that". I think this is after the Midnight Essence vision, in which he has seen Shardblades, Shardblades and the Regrower fabrials in action. I believe that he is referring to the non-Radiant society that the early Nohadon and the Natan peasants were part of. I believe that the Radiants had developed these fabrials after the early Nohadon vision and didn't share the techniques of their fabrication with the non-Radiant society of the Natan peasants. We know that Navani believes this. I don't know that this is the only way, or that this is the technique that the Radiants used to create their fabrials. Is doubt disproof? In any case, the Dalinar-vision Nohadon believed that Nahel bond spren bound to dishonorable people, so I question your "ie" chain. This theory, which I don't believe is canon, explains the lack of spren in Kalak's prelude and Dalinar's vision. While I don't disbelieve it, I don't espouse it either. Consider the other splinters we have seen. I believe that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor (a theory I believe, not proven, not canon, etc). Others have suggested that the honorspren are voluntary splinters of Honor (not my theory, not proven, not canon, etc). Others have suggested that the Shardblades and Shardplate are voluntary splinters of Honor (not my theory, not proven, not canon, etc). The splinters all seem closely related to the Shardic intent. The many, many spren on Roshar seem so random to me that I merely consider their splinterhood to be a possibility, and not evidence to prove or disprove any other theory. Whoah, too long! Sorry! Edited: Add Shardblades and Shardplates as possible voluntary splinters. Ceased to claim ownership of Heralds as splinters.

Yes! Let's dive into another mystery! It seems possible to me that a group of fifth-oath Radiants of varying orders combined with their spren and maybe a little extra from Honor could create the amazing fabrials that the plate and blade seem to be. They could still be primary investitures (or not, depending on how Brandon wants to play it). The blades are supposed to be unique art pieces, which would support the idea of individual craftmanship. What happened to the non-Radiant surgebinders? We know that Kaladin as a first-oath Radiant used stormlight an order of magnitude more effectively than Szeth. So there is a payoff to adopting the oaths: increased power. Consider surgebinders who wanted to use the power in dishonorable ways. Wouldn't the Radiants feel bound to stop people who were abusing their power? Remember Kaladin's storm dream. He is drawn to a phenomenon (Szeth using stormlight) and find Szeth in the act of assassinating. It seems reasonable to me that Radiants could detect other surgebinders. So for surgebinders, the choice quickly becomes stark. Option one: become a Radiant, with much greater power, a cause, a society and awesome hardware. Option two: use your power honorably without any of the benefits. Option three: Use your power in dishonorable ways and fight the numbers, honor-enhanced strength and hardware of the Radiants. Just a few thoughts. I think I can count on you guys to find the problems with my ramblings ...

7. Groups trained by heralds, possibly including the Shin mentioned above. The mysterious Shin Lifebrother could be a herald. 8. If Cultivation has followers that bind spren, then some of Cultivation's followers.

That is an interesting idea. I had assumed that when the Radiants abandoned their oaths, the associated spren dissolved the Nahel bonds and lost their sentience. The Nahel bond spren would still wander around looking for beings to bond with. I interpret Brandon's other bombshell that other sentient spren exist to mean that other people that we haven't met yet have formed the bond w/appropriate spren. This would be consistent with either a pocket of Radiants having persisted or other people having started the bonding process like Kaladin and Syl. It seems clear to me that Jasnah has a bond with a particular spren, but who else is there? The possibilities include: people having communicated with Gavilar before he was killed (since he seems to have known things that Dalinar still doesn't know) if voidbringers or other servants of Odium bond with spren, there could be existing pockets of sentient spren bonded to Odium's servants people associated with the king of Kharbranth the people on the Yulay peninsula (not sure about this location) that Sigzil references as anticipating the return of Radiants.

Hopefully this isn't too obvious to everybody and people will correct the holes (or wholes) in my understanding. What are the splinters of Honor? As I see it, a Shardholder can voluntarily create slivers when alive, and some are created when a Shard is splintered so there is no longer an intact Shard (presumably the holder dies in the splintering, if they weren't already toast). If we call the first kind of slivers "voluntary splinters" and the second "involuntary (or would post-mortem be better?) splinters" we get. What are the voluntary splinters of Honor? What are the involuntary splinters of Honor? The obvious candidates are the Heralds and the sentient spren like Syl. The sentient spren: As said above, there were Radiants before the Heralds packed it in. The Radiants used honorspren at least. So, if they were splinters , at least some of the sentient spren were voluntary splinters. The Heralds also predated the decease, so if they are splinters, they are voluntary splinters. Another mystery, alluded to above, is: Why doesn't Kalak see spren in the opening scene? Why don't spren appear in Dalinar's visions? Crazy theory: Tanavast and splinters can't see spren. Why? I believe that the Heralds are voluntary splinters of Honor, which gave them their immortality and inability to see spren, among other things. If this crazy theory is true, then Syl is not a splinter, because she can see other spren. The instance I remember for sure is that when Kaladin is dying after being exposed in the Highstorm, Syl fights the deathspren. So this leaves us: Voluntary splinters: Heralds Involuntary splinters: ? Remnants of Honor, but not splinters: Some sentient spren, Ryshadium horses, the power gained by committing to the oaths, Shardblades and Shardplate, Dalinar's visions, the highstorm face. It seems to me that there could be other spren that are involuntary splinters, but otherwise, the remaining involuntary splinters are a mystery. What do people think?

Interesting. I've also been thinking about the highstorms. I agree that the stormlight is some sort of spiritual essence from the spiritual realm. You are presenting it as a quantity coming from the Origin as is universally known. Well, I missed it. I've been thinking of it another way. I see the center of the highstorm as a weakening of the barrier between the physical and spiritual realms. The spiritual phenomena that we see during the highstorm would all be the result of this partial gateway traveling around the world. Tanavast's video log that Dalinar experiences during highstorms could be in the spiritual realm. The face that Kaladin sees during the highstorm could also be a spiritual manifestation. The gems (and maybe their spren) could catalyze the transfer of stormlight when the partial gateway passes through them. The epigraph for chapter 61 is also interesting: From Kaladin's experience of the highstorm (chapter 35): There is actually a lot there. Kaladin doesn't infuse the stormlight, but he does seem to experience it from his head or the top of his spine throughout his body. Hope this helps.

Post #29, by Zas678, should have the quote. Some more of that thread may also be relevant.

Windrunner, thinking your question over led me down a different path on the Radiant appearances. First, what we know: The Radiants live across Alethela (not Urithiru). Source: Radiant said so. The Windrunner arrived by flight and the landing was felt, seen and heard. Source: Dalinar. The Windrunner arrived first. Source: Dalinar. The Stoneward arrival was unnoticed. Source: Dalinar. The Radiants are able to teleport/travel. Source: Brandon S Deduction: The Stoneward arrived by teleportation/travel. Problems: Why did the Stoneward arrive later, when flying should take longer than teleporting? Wouldn't it take an unreasonably long time to fly continental distances? Solutions: The Radiants have fabrials for travel called Oathgates in a spoke arrangement with the hub at Urithiru. Someone detects a voidish presence in Natanatan. The Windrunners and others are called from their bases in Alethela, teleport to Urithiru, then to the nearest Oathgate to the disturbance. The flyers fly the remaining distance to the source of the problem. The next part has three possibilities: either the teleporters don't want to arrive first, they can't arrive as precisely or they need the flying Radiants (presumably two orders) to provide a target. For whatever reason, the Stoneward arrives later. The Radiants just happened to be nearby, as you suggest. What do people think?

I like the thought of recharging with a ride in the highstorm. I do wonder about the limits on stormlight storage. As a level 1 Radiant Kaladin uses stormlight an order of magnitude more effectively than Szeth. At level 2 (after the second oath), he is even more efficient. Szeth makes reference to Voidbringers holding stormlight perfectly. I wonder whether windrunners who have taken the fifth oath can do nearly as well. The armor is full of charged gems on the inside, where the armor wouldn't interfere with the wearer's use. I'm guessing that windrunners can use the armor as battery and actually travel great distances. In the Midnight Essence vision, the knights seem to brighten and dim at will. I think that it's due to depositing and withdrawing stormlight to/from the armor. In the battle scenes, Szeth essentially flies around at will by lashing himself upward various fractions, so I think we already know how it's done. The opening scene with Gavilar and the one with the Veden king are particularly instructive, as I recall.

Nice! Very clear presentation. Nice idea about where to assign the ability. This topic could focus discussion and lead to better understanding. Another point in favor: If you believe, as I do, that Surges are abilities of spren shared across the Nahel bond, then Syl's detection of the masses of humanity at the Alethi warcamp as they approach is an instance of the spren ability the surge could be based on. And another one linked to OP point 3: The knights are based in Alethkar to protect everywhere. They have to be relying on a detection ability. I do wonder about OP point 2: It seems to me that it could be from a Radiant remote communication ability rather than detection. A minor quibble: I believe there has been previous discussion of this possible surge here, here, here and here.

Thanks. Well, you've followed the implications further than I had, frankly. So, upvote back at you! I couldn't find either "prismic" or "prismatic" anywhere else on the forums, so I'm working off your summary. I think there must be more to it, as the Regrowth ability seems to work from any piece. Maybe that is part of what Honor contributes (it is Shardplate after all) that the regrowth ability (and maybe others) applies to any part. Well, I'm of the opinion that Regrowth is a distinct surge or part of one (like the Lashings), and not a form of soulcasting. If a part, the surge could be life, health, growth or something like that. It would be logical to have such a surge create life, and Shards can definitely create life, but I fear that Brandon doesn't want Radiants to be that powerful the Shard or Shards that enable the power didn't want to give away that much power. It would seem messy and not that useful to say that a Radiant could create something like a cremling, but not a full human. I guess Brandon could limit it by requiring unobtainably large gems and impossible amounts of stormlight. But what if you started with a sperm? Could that be the truth behind the "Origins of the Makabaki" story? Interesting. Another side note: What is Odium's Shard? I thought Odium was the Shard that Rayse was connected to. Silly things I wonder about while replacing single quotes with double to make your name come out right when quoted and wishing your name was "Shard of Odium". Anyway, enough of my rambling for now, I look forward to your further thoughts.

Well, I started this post before, but the first part just amplifies ReaderAt2046's point. Hopefully the second part brings something to the discussion. We know that he can't, from the prologue: I interpret this to mean that Szeth can't draw from the gems through the armor, but must get the armor out of the way/disassemble it to draw from the gems. The only question I see is "Why can't he?". I think I can help with this. Requoting from another thread: I believe that Brandon does tell us some of how Shardplate works. In chapter 26, Dalinar is armoring up: It seems uncoincidental (probably not a real word) that the windrunner ability "cling to rock" is paired with the windrunner gems (sapphires). This conceivably could support a connection between the Radiant abilities and the Shardplate ... What I extrapolate from this is that one or more high level Radiants (or Honor, or Hephaestus) create the Shardplate and give it Radiant fabrial abilities. The ability to cling to rock could be a gravity or pressure manipulation, as could the ease of movement and the extraordinary balance feature. The self repairing could be related to the Regrowth ability or the Stormlight-infused healing. The ability to resist a Shardblade could be a form of investiture. The feeling through the armor could be action at a distance, like spanreeds. I don't know what the disappearing helm trick in the Midnight Essence vision could be. Anyway, carry on.

Yes! Great questions/thoughts. It seems to me that since Kaladin draws from the spheres of other bridgemen and the gems of the Parshendi, either Kaladin or Szeth could draw upon the other's non-infused Stormlight stores (spheres carried around, for example), except as incorporated into Shardplate. I agree that they shouldn't be able to draw on each other's infused stormlight. Following on, I've been wondering about Kaladin and Szeth lashing each other. If either of them is not infusing, it seems to me that they should be as vulnerable to being lashed as anybody else. When infused, would lashing work on them or are they invested and invulnerable to other's lashings? What do people think?

Very thoughtful. With respect to the Stormlight Archive I mostly sort of agree. I recommend Zas' Spren Hypothesis thread for a more thorough discussion of spren and surgebinding. There is this quote from Nohadon: Briefly, one implication is that honorspren are a subset of Nahel bond spren. Another is that surgebinders need not act with honor (at least pre-Nohadon, this brilliant theory suggests that it may have changed, although I'm not convinced) There has also been some discussion about whether: all Radiants work with honorspren; some radiants work with honorspren and others (Shallan, for example), work with other kinds of spren or; there are multiple subtypes of honorspren. A surgebinder presumably needs a Nahel bond spren, but it need not be an honorspren nor would they be a Radiant unless they adopted the oaths. The theory I am currently leaning toward is that there are 10 kinds of Nahel Bond spren, one of which is the honorspren. Surgebinders can have a bond with any of these. If they adopt the oaths, they become Radiants and become much more powerful. The ten orders of Radiants are defined by the behavior that attracts the spren and the type of spren attracted (which should match). We also have WOB that Szeth is getting his windrunner abilities from somewhere else (I guess that it comes from using Jezrien's Honorblade, but it's just an idea). This leaves the following known surgebinders: Kaladin: honorspren Jasnah: ? spren Szeth: not using the Nahel Bond to get his powers, so maybe not really a surgebinder Shallan: Symbolhead/truthspren Dalinar (speculated, but not proven): ? spren Alakavish: not honorspren It will be very interesting to see what Shallan draws if and when she draws Syl. Anyway, I would argue that Honor is responsible for the honorspren and maybe some others of the Nahel Bond spren, but maybe not all of the Nahel Bond spren. The Radiant Oath increase in power definitely seems to be an honor thing. Apologies for the length, hope this helps.