hoser

Isn't dueling against the codes? Sadeas was compelled to duel Adolin because of the king's boon. Can Highprinces randomly challenge each other? If so, why did Sadeas have to do the boon trick with Gavilar previously when he killed that Highprince long ago? Could Sadeas just delay it a year? Could challenging Sadeas to a duel lead to the civil war that Dalinar wants to avoid? Are you sure that dueling is a real option for Dalinar? Whether dueling is another option or not, the two situations are still not comparable due to the power, confessed guilt and status imbalances. Dalinar did say that they do not disarm Shardbearers, but he could have, which is my point. He doesn't hesitate to innovate in other situations. They would likely have to disarm Amaram with much greater loss of life later, so why not do it now? Further, if something goes wrong with the expedition, there is little chance justice will ever be served. Yeah, I agree. It was stupid of Amaram to confess, but that is one of the givens, so irrelevant. In Roshar, Aladar was chosen over Yenev's heir (or whoever that Highprince was). The Alethi admire strong leadership even more than the Azish, who chose a juvenile thief as emperor. Status can be changed by decree, just as in our feudal times. Elhokar has been trained from birth to rule and has been ruling for six years and it hasn't made him good. In our world's past, in our present, in Alethkar, leadership has been valued over experience. Consider Kaladin's commentary about the new sergeants if you doubt that that is how it works in Roshar. One of the running subthemes of the series is effective leadership. Where is your evidence to support the idea that experience and training are more important than innate leadership in this world of Brandon's? Whether Kaladin will be considered for leadership is independent of how effective he would be if he even was chosen and if he accepted the position. In point of fact, Kaladin has shown a willingness to learn and consult. A highprince is a leader, first and foremost (particularly since Alethi administration, being capable of being done with one hand, is essentially a female art ). Kaladin could have a council of advisers and would need administrators anyway. Sigzil, for example, would make a good adviser. But all this is probably moot, as Kaladin would probably choose not to be Highprince. Fighting the Voidbringers, Sons of Honor, Mr. T, the Ghostbloods, Odium, helping reform the Radiants and teaching Elhokar leadership might be enough for him. Apologies if my attempt at humor about the sweetness and expense of certain beverages hit a nerve. I have no wish to offend .

Totally fun. But if I can change my self perception at will, then can I just get rid of the hand by changing it back? But seriously, you are an Edgedancer and your arms get caught? What's up with that? Going slick instantly frees either or both of your arms.

The two situations are not comparable. In one Dalinar has no power to arrest or kill Sadeas: all he can do is get the remains of his army killed and cause a civil war. In the other, Dalinar has the power to arrest or kill Amaram with no real consequence. As the great philosopher Ben Parker would say: "with great power comes great responsibility." The external factors that constrained Dalinar from attacking and killing Sadeas are not a matter of honor, but practicalities that do not apply to the situation with Amaram. With Amaram, the honorable thing to do was to confront him. After the confession, Amaram needs to be disarmed and arrested. If Amaram will not go peacefully at any point, there will be bloodshed, but the stain from that would lie on Amaram. I am sorry to break it to you, but people choose leaders based on "leadership," not experience. Ronald Reagan was an actor, but got elected governer of the largest state of the USA. Senators run for president of the United States, not only governers. In Roshar, a juvenile thief was chosen to lead the Azish empire. Leaders choose administrators to administrate after they are chosen. Sure. You can't picture it. I can. With both our opinions and $5, we can get a coffee-flavored milkshake at Starbucks . The cool thing is that Brandon will write something more interesting than either of our imaginings. I did not mean to suggest that you were being antagonistic. It just looked to me as if you were ruling out Kaladin to defend your support of Amaram. But I could be wrong about that, so I'm stopping now ...

Does Sadeas even have children? When Sadeas killed Aladar's predecessor, the predecessor got replaced by Aladar who was an ally of Sadeas, Dalinar and Gavilar. So the Highprince succession is not strictly within the same house.

My point is this. It is not an execution. It is either an arrest or suicide by police. Dalinar certainly has the authority and responsibility as Highprince to arrest and disarm a murderer. Amaram has pulled a Shardblade, the local equivalent of a gun. Dalinar offers him the choice: turn over your weapon or die. If he refuses to turn over the weapon, it creates an emergency that Amaram's death neatly solves. Letting the murderer go free with the means for mass murder makes no sense and is without honor. If Amaram wants a trial, he just turns over the Shardblade and, if he is exonerated, they can put a new gem in it and return it to him. Given that there are many witnesses to his confession, the trial is a moot point and the local equivalent of an inquest could certainly show that Dalinar killing him was justified. Arresting a murderer is as honorable as it gets. If he won't go peacefully, there is no dishonor in protecting people from whatever Amaram plans next. At this point, Kaladin is not a candidate for Highprince. If he plays a visibly heroic role in Hearthstone and then Kholinar, the capital, he could be the logical candidate. Whether he would accept it is another story. He can be a lighteyes at will. The Radiants are disliked by the ardentia, but popularly, there is a lot of sympathy (see Teft, for example). Recent glorious exploits will carry much more weight than semi-mythical stories. Let's see now: who would likely have the most important voice in the discussion? Elhokar, you say? The king who he just saved and admires his leadership. Hatham, the leader of the largest faction of highprinces and himself chosen by Ryshadium could easily go along. Sadeas might have a problem with it, but he's discredited, a proven fool and dead besides. As a Radiant, Kaladin is what lighteyes aspire to be. Depending on events and the role he plays, the frightened people of Alethkar may soon see his official status as a pale insignificant shadow of his real rank and power. Changing his official caste is the work of a moment, if he proves worthy. This is all contingent upon him being visibly and effectively heroic.

I hated the ending of the Amaram confession. All Dalinar had to do was demand that he hand over the Shardblade. If he doesn't, kill him. Amaram has already admitted to murder and drawn a Shardblade against a highprince. They just crush the gem and Amaram isn't a Shardblade bearer anymore, then they imprison him immediately. This gives them more Shards for the expedition, also. I assume that Brandon wants to play with Amaram some more, but it is annoying to see smart characters missing obvious solutions. Having Amaram become Highprince would create more drama, but I agree that the politics don't seem to fit. Depending on how things go in Hearthstone and then maybe Kholinar, I could imagine Kaladin having support to become Highprince of his birth region.

This is creative and it seems like it might be brilliant if I could only understand it, but I feel so confused ... Snap-upvote for Diogenes reference! Before every Desolation, spren implanted in the Honorblades take over a temperamentally-suited host and implant them with "... abilities ... physical appearance, personality and memories." Brandon has said that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. So the Oathpact was the an agreement between Honor and the Heralds to turn them into Unmade? When a new host gets taken over, there is nothing of the host left? This fits with Honor's intent? Destroy your allies and use them to possess and annihilate innocents. With Honor like this, who needs Odium? Isn't possession one of Odium's favorite tools? This would explain the Recreance, I guess, so there's that. What happens after the Desolation to the surviving Heralds? They think they are returning to Braize, but they are really annihilated? The memories of being tortured so horribly that these super-honorable people break at the prospect are imaginary as the torture never occurs? Why bother with a temperamentally-suited host? They are going to be made over anyway, right? Now the Stone Shamans are unwitting trainees for being possessed, because the It's too hard for the identity spren to impart the knowledge of how to use the Honorblades? Considering the other things these Honor-Unmade supposedly do, using an Honorblade seems trivial. Wasn't Shinovar a Vorin nation at Aharietam (sp)? So Stone Shamanism only took over after there were no more desolations? When there were desolations, there weren't Stone Shamans and they wouldn't have had the Honorblades to practice with, so they wouldn't have had the skills that they are chosen for? Szeth is given a punishment worse than death for telling the Stone Shamans that their reason for being, the thing they practice for and what they spend every Highstorm doing is meaningful. The "truth" of the Valley of Truth is that the purpose and activities of the Shamans are meaningless. They do their things despite a world view that tells them that their activities have no purpose? So the Honorblades suck up Investiture on the scale of an entire Highstorm? But wait, they don't suck it up at all unless wielded effectively. Kaladin carried one around for a while without noticing anything. Szeth carries pouches of spheres around that seem to be drained only when he is infused or surgebinding. So the Shamans travel to the other side of these huge mountains for every Highstorm and line up so they can absorb all the Stormlight to a huge region. During the highstorm they infuse and consume the investiture to waste it all. This is the alternative to the mountains stopping the rain and the stormlight nexus not occurring without the storm. This seems like a Rube Goldberg machine that can't work as an explanation of the lack of spren in Shinovar. But maybe this is a largely irrelevant sidebar to the main point. So the Honorblade (one that was not with the Shamans, Taln's) somehow transports itself to Shinovar and convinces a Shaman (so far as we know, the Honorblades are not sentient) to travel to Kholinar (using a blade that does not have the transportation ability, no less) so the Shaman can be possessed. And "Taln," whose most lucid moments are his first ones (when he actually communicates clearly with Hoid) is a person remade by a spren uncalibrated by time and slowly recovering. What does it matter if the spren slowly recovers after botching the demonic possession? It seems particularly irrelevant when it seems to be nowhere near "Taln" at the moment. Wouldn't "Taln" have to be the one recovering? I guess a sentient spren-Honorblade that can travel freely could go anywhere, so that might explain why it doesn't seem to be near Taln. When the Honorblade fixes itself, it will go back to "Taln" and re-possess him properly? Aren't spren pretty fixed in how they operate? Wouldn't they be the least likely to break over time and similarly unbreak? The more I think about this theory, the more confused I get.

Exactly! Religion/society/worldview overthrown: check Oppressed warrior class: check riot/revolution chance: unknown How quickly can the Shamans deploy with their Honorblades to keep the warriors in their place if needed? A chaotic setting could make it easier for Nale to operate. Does Nale plan to get the rest of the Honorblades? My crystal ball seems broken... An interesting situation, to be sure.

Adolin was alone and far from the rest of his patrol (see quote from Adolin's point of view in Chapter 89 below). Although if Brandon wants, someone will have seen it. I don't know about losing credibility, either. Just as Sadeas could get away with his betrayal at the Tower because it wasn't "public," the Alethi might accept the assassination of a discredited leader in private and just move on. It seems like a critical mass of important people who want to bring Dalinar and Adolin down is needed. While I imagine Ialai will be upset, I don't understand Highprince succession well enough to know if anyone will even care what she thinks. The Diagram can do their plotting, but Kaladin can undermine Graves easily and who else does the Diagram control that matters? As usual, I think Brandon has enough levers to make things work out the way he thinks the story needs to go.

The Stormfather speaking in Chapter 89 of WoR: My interpretation is that the Everstorm was designed long ago, but is actualized for the first time. This would allow it to be a new thing, but old of design. I am not aware of the listener songs referring to it. Eshonai and her sister seem to discuss it as a new event. So my belief is that the Everstorm has never hit Shinovar before. Given the unknowns involved in the effect on Shinovar, I find predicting even it's approximate effect on Shinovar to be a dubious enterprise. It seems that it will have a huge effect, both physically and culturally (as the Valley of Truth turns out to be based on a lie). Brandon can make it as significant as he wants for the best story.

I beg to differ. To me, the "It must be done brutally" requires him to take unnecessary life.

That is an excellent point, as Szeth was explicitly instructed to make the assassinations bloody. On the other hand, he was in the process of wantonly murdering him when Kaladin rescued Dalinar and attacked Szeth. It is not clear why Szeth fought Adolin before Dalinar, either.

Apparently, according to Edgedancer (and Edgedancer seems authoritative to me), everything is made of Investiture. Vocabulary aside, the point I was trying to make is that I think the Unmade are like the spren in their projection into the Physical Realm. The Heralds, Listeners and humans like Kaladin have much more physical presence. The phrase I used for the sprenlike class was "pure Investiture," and I guess that is wrong on a number of levels as everything is apparently "pure Investiture" and spren do have a minimal projection into the physical realm (Syl can push on things, Wyndle leaves a slight residue and Pattern can pick locks). I am still confused about the limits of Investiture as souls travel to a place beyond the reach of Shards, there are agents beyond Adonalsium and there could even be a more monotheistic God or purpose interacting with multiple Adonalsium-scale beings. Ponderings about the meaning and limits of Investiture aside, does the distinction I was trying to make about the Unmade seem clear? And what would be a good way to say the thing I so horribly bungled?

My point relevant to this thread was that I think that neither the Unmade, nor spren have much in the way of bodies, but are composed of the stuff of Shards. They can also have memories, programming and personality. The programming may be hardwired by the Shard that they came from. I believe that they are historically different in that the Unmade were once "made", but are effectively spren now. I stated that spren were "pure investiture" and in the post that is being responded to, I stated that "Shards are investiture plus maybe some stuff." It seems to me that you are misquoting me and then quibbling about the definition of vague terms using the straw man you created by misquoting. I fail to see how this advances the thread to the purpose of the original poster. I am grateful for the actual information provided by Edgedancer, so there's that I said that the spren were composed of the stuff of Shards. I did not say that Shards are spren. In the splintering of a Shard something can be lost and size matters. So again, you seem to be misinterpreting what I have said and then quibbling about your misinterpretation and the vague terms we are using. Not only do I fail to see how this advances the discussion, but I experience being misquoted, being misinterpreted and pointless quibbling as annoying.

What is your evidence for the Radiants coming way after Surgebinding? As I see it, Surgebinding was new in the Nohadon vision and the Knights formed during his lifetime as they were involved in the creation of Urithiru and he went there. So the spren started copying the Honorblades, then Ishar constrained them to limit the power they provided to their bondees within one or maximum two Desolations. Since some spren can imitate anything, anything can really be a spren, so that is an argument that cannot be refuted. By the same token, it is a pointless and meaningless argument to make. Points favoring the Unmade being the monsters in the Highstorms: Assuming that the Unmade have an appearance, we don't know what they look like. We don't know what the monsters in the Highstorm are, so they could be the same. Of course, you could use the same argument to believe that the monsters are larval Chasmfiends, Dawnshards or any other unknown thing, so this is not really a point in favor.Points opposing the Unmade being the monsters in the Highstorms: The name "Unmade" suggests a lack of physicality The only thing we know about the monsters is their physical description While some spren can imitate physical forms, they tend to imitate existing forms. Many spren cannot do even do that. The Unmade are described as working individually, whereas there are multiple of these monsters together. Mr. T apparently believes that the Silent Gatherers are only effective when a particular Unmade is nearby. If said Unmade were a monster in the middle of the Highstorms, then the Gatherers would only collect during Highstorms and none of the death rattles that we have seen between Highstorms could have occurred.

Well, I thought it was obvious. But how did I reach that conclusion? Syl says shes a piece of a god. The real gods are people combined with a Shard, in Roshar: Honor, Cultivation Odium. Syl is not a piece of Tanavast's corpse. Shards are investiture plus maybe some stuff. Honor was splintered, leaving lots of investiture unfocused. Since the splintering of Honor there are many more spren Read items 3-5 and 8 from this search for supporting quotes If you doubt the conclusion after that, please get back to me with your thoughts. If my conclusion is incorrect, I'd like to figure that out sooner than later.

The way I see it (but with very little textual support): The Unmade were once physical but are now mainly investiture. This is based on the name: Unmade. Which implies that they were once "made" or real. While they are effectively now spren (pure investiture), they have a different history and were not born out of thought. The Vorn mythology has an expulsion from the Tranquilline Halls and the Unmade were around before the Knights arose (and therefore before Odium enlisted the Listeners). So I think the Unmade were Odium's agents in the expulsion from the Tranquilline Halls and his counterparts to the Heralds during Desolations and became the voidbringer gods. The giant figures that Kaladin saw in the Highstorm seemed very physical and so I do not believe them to be Unmade.

These seem to be the notes corresponding to the comment in Chapter 89 that follows: As far as we know, Jasnah had not been to the Shattered Plains, which is why she and Shallan were traveling there. So I think "Shattered Plains" is not correct for the bracketed text, but rather something like Epoch capitals or Silver Kingdom capitals would fit contextually, since we know that she has been to all the other Oathgates. The mirroring of the text could be because the notes are on the other side of the paper or the facing page and Shallan is drawing on the back or opposite. In chapter 17 of WoR, Shallan is described as follows:

When Shallan attends the meeting with the Highprinces, she comments that Hatham is the leader of the largest faction, those trying to reconcile and get everybody to work together. He basically seems to be between the worlds: somewhat corrupt in a standard Alethi way, but significantly more constructive than most. Without the "divine" assistance of Dalinar's visions and (what I consider) the divinely inspired hatefulness of Sadeas, finding a way for the highprinces to work together would likely seem the most helpful course. I could easily see Hatham becoming a Radiant if he survives long enough. I really like the idea presented below, but the textual evidence in the books seems to overrule it. The books seem clear that the Ryshadium are different from the get-go and choose the rider based on some quality which may be related to Radiant predisposition. It will be interesting to see what happens if Kaladin goes to the Ryshadium place before Odium's minions wipe the Ryshadium out (or try to). The quote below is one example. If the person and the way they cared was what changed a regular horse into a Ryshadium, then the concept of a "full" Ryshadium wouldn't make any sense, as it seems to be a breeding reference. It does suggest that there are part-Ryshadiums, which is an interesting concept.

We know that Hoid can tell when and where he needs to be, but not what he will find. Kholinar seems like a logical place for groups to plant sleeper agents. For me, the first question is: what did Hoid do? Since he was definitely involved, he is the prime suspect. Even though none of our questions have teased out what he did with it,that doesn't rule out his involvement in the transfer. The diagram could have done something, but I find it unlikely that they could predict "Taln"'s arrival.

Sure, Occam's Razor is not rigorous. With further apologies to Blaze, I experience Occam's Razor as more rigorous than the bulk of his/her argument. I don't get this. We have two descriptions of the blade: Szeth describes it as long and relatively small Kaladin doesn't comment on it's length, but calls it "thin," "silvery" and "unornamented" Yet people persist in claiming that it is short when the only reference to it's length states explicitly that it is long. Even the Windrunner glyph portrays a narrow blade. This seems to me to be another canard. Oh well, time to edit my title.

Okay. I'll bite. The Skybreaker blade is one of those that Kalak described as "magnificent works of art." If it resembles the glyph, I am beginning to doubt Kalak's abilities as an art critic . I would not describe the middle blade as: The middle blade seems to widen toward the end, which is not how I see a spike. The glyph from the endsheet could be described as a spike, but that is not how I see the middle blade. Edit: This is an imprecise science, but the way I read the tea leaves, the middle blade could only be for orders 3-8. The glyphs for orders 9, 10, 1, 2 do not widen toward the end.

Thanks for your graceful acceptance of my criticism of your post. I was not aware of the quote that ParadoxSpren found when making my post. Were you aware of it when you made the post that I took exception to? Had you mentioned it therein, it would have greatly strengthened your argument in my eyes, If you were not aware, and since you didn't mention it in the challenged post, I question it's post facto inclusion in the "logical" chain as steps 3 and 4. Likewise step 5 is new information and possibly irrelevant. Jezrien's blade is described as long and small. "Logically," it is not as wide or as thick as other blades. If it is as long or longer, it could be as effective against large opponents. My challenge was to the word "logic." It was a reasonable chain of thought or suppositions. One can follow the reasoning, which fits for a common meaning of "logic." When I challenged your statement that it is "logical to assume," I wanted some more rigorous logical principle like modus ponens or Occam's Razor that Spock would appreciate, rather than a vague series of possibilities mashed together with some information that was previously not mentioned or irrelevant. I claim that stating assumptions as fact is not helpful, but rather misleading. Period. If status and reputation are not significant, then why are they included with every post? It is human nature to accept certain authorities. As such, I believe staff and high reputation posters have a responsibility to be careful. My experience has been that they generally are. Of course, they can theorize with the rest of us, but if they make misleading posts, I think the misleadings will be taken more seriously than the misleadings of those who lack their reputation and status.

While I took pains to acknowledge my delight in the presentation of the OP, the assertion in question is not in the OP, and seems unequivocal to me. The first part could easily include a "may." The parenthetical remark is a total fabrication, as far as I can tell. In context, the acknowledgements regarding the basis of the theory do not seem to apply to the subsequent post, which just seems to be asserting background information. Overall, with regard to the OP theory, I was offering support in the post that Moogle was responding to. My point was that the Shardblade in question could have been either Kalak's or Taln's, as neither of them seems to have been described. With the OP suggesting that it was Kalak's, I thought the unknown appearance was supportive of the OP. So I fear this whole digression came about because of my inability to communicate effectively. With this clarification and mea culpa, I am attempting to rerail the discussion.