hoser

With all due respect and no desire to insult the poster, I want to go off on a particular post. Please forgive me if some part of my post seems offensive to the Blaze1616, as that is not my intention. The post offers quotes from source documents, which I love. However ... This seems totally wrong to me. That Jezrien's blade changed is not a fact, it is baseless speculation. The quote does not hint at Jezrien's sword changing at all, much less heavily. It merely states that it is different. Likewise this: Jezrien's blade was explicitly not lumped in at all, the quote even explicitly says "Seven" where Jezrien's and Kalak's blades make eight and nine respectively. It is not logical at all to assume that Jezrien's Blade has changed. That is a pure assumption. Please cite me the logical guideline that would lead one to this conclusion. If the spike blade that "Taln" showed up with is an Honorblade (which is the presumption of the OP), then that would be proof that not all the Honorblades are ornate or similarly sized. Cool. Kalak doesn't describe either his own or Jezrien's Blade. You assume that that means that it looks like the others and so it must have changed. Fine. Someone else could see how Szeth describes Jezrien's and assume based on the fact that we don't know of any Honorblades changing that it has always been that way. Also fine. People can believe whatever they want. What I have a problem with is people stating unsupported beliefs as fact. I also hold staff and people with high reputation to a higher standard. That Moogle, whose posts have provided me with so much enjoyment, states this assumption as fact will be taken as more authoritative than if a relative novice such as myself were to make it. Another pet peeve I have is that I hate illogic that masquerades as logic. I really appreciate the way Moogle prefaced this theory: At least we know where we stand. The post I am having problems with seems opposite to me. Someone carelessly reading it may think there is some substance there, where I see none. Once again, I want to clarify that my issue is with this post, not Blaze1616 and his many wonderful contributions to our shared obsession. Edit: Thanks to you ParadoxSpren! That is real evidence! While it makes sense for Sprenblades to change as their spren change, Brandon does not explicitly exclude Honorblades, so this cannot be discounted, in my opinion. Likewise, the notable difference in size of Jezrien's might not constitute a "slight change," but since "slight" is an imprecise phrasing, people can interpret it as they will.

Moogle's assertion about Jezrien's Honorblade seems too strong for a general assumption. There is no ambiguity about the set of blades that Kalak describes that I am aware of. In the absence of evidence for Jezrien's blade changing, I can't see any justification for asserting that it has done so. Unsupported statements by staff with otherworldly reputation are likely to be repeated as fact and become canards.

What is the evidence for extreme ornamentation of Jezrien's blade? Kalak describes the seven (not including his own, Taln's and Jezrien's) as being ornate, but I'm not aware of a description of Jezrien's that makes it anything but simple and elegant.

From the confused ramblings in his POV, there is something wrong with "Taln." The talk about the Gift that was never his and is now his suggests to me that there are identity issues. Is Taln's mind just broken and it doesn't make any sense? I choose to believe that it's meaningful. It suggests to me that it is somebody else's mind in Taln's body or something of the sort. The wet could be the condensation thing or it could be related to the leaves and bits of wood. I tend to agree with Seloun that Mr. T's lie was forced. He had to explain extraordinary healing in a way that Szeth would believe. While we know that the Radiants had fabrials like Nale's, Szeth doesn't know of any. The two healing Honorblades are the only explanation that Szeth is aware of for the healing that Kaladin performed. If the Shardblade that "Taln" uses at the gates of Kholinar is an Honorblade, then it can only be Kalak's or Taln's because it doesn't fit the description of the blades in the circle that Kalak gives in tWoK. The Heralds must have some Transportation ability even without the Honorblades. Otherwise, if the two Heralds with Transportation were killed, the Oathpact would fall apart. If the Heralds have the ability to travel and Mr. T's lies are more or less forced, this theory doesn't seem to explain anything that I can see. While I can't prove that it's not true (I'm not interested in even trying to prove a negative), the chance that the real story in Brandon's mind fits this pattern seems unlikely to me. There are so many things we don't know about the Heralds, Roshar and the Cosmere that explaining things by combining the few things we know in this particular way is not compelling to me.

Good catch, and a pleasure to see your handle as the poster.

More on that in this thread, but you know that, as you participated therein.

Excellent work! It would be nice if this thread could be pinned and the OP updated, in my opinion. The Ghostbloods: I believe Iyatil blew darts toward him. The Ghostbloods have at least one nonlethal dart poison, so I don't know whether they wanted to interfere with his mission or kill him. Presumably, if they just wanted to abduct him, they would have done so before he was with "Taln," but we can't entirely rule out abduction as a goal. · Taravangian and Tukar: ... Since Mraize refers to Heleran as seeking out the Skybreakers, Nale refers to his group as the Skybreakers and Nale travels widely, I find it unlikely that he is referring to Nale. It seems to me that it could be Restares or some unknown player. · ... Shallan's father, the family steward and brother Kabsal seem to have been members also. The Sons of Honor: ... On the night of his assassination, Gavilar sent him on a mission whose nature he concealed from Jasnah. Was this mission the thing that made Szeth "too late?" The Diagramists: Quotes: Danlan: a part of Graves' cell, involved with Adolin briefly and one of Dalinar's scribes. Sigzil refers to groups on the Yulay(not sure about name?) Peninsula as trying to bring back the Radiants, which could be similar The Oldbloods have distinctive tattoos. They once ruled Alethkar. If the people who grabbed the Radiant weapons deposed the previous leadership, would the previous nobility have been the Oldbloods? When was their rule relative to the Sunmaker's deposing of the Heirocracy? Shallan's mother was a part of some group, which led her and an associate to try to kill Shallan Ialai has a spy network

Dalinar has to deal with crem to get the trapdoor open to get to the roof, so not entirely. It could well be that most storms or most of the storms pass below.

One good bit of pedantry deserves another. Is "good bit of pedantry" an oxymoron?

You mean "Why on Roshar ..." or "Why on stone ..." But seriously, the healing would only be meaningful if it were a scar.

I really like the OP. Another piece of evidence that might want to be included is from the diagram. A chapter epigraph refers to one as a traitor to the others. It could be talking about the Heralds, and could even be referring to Nale as the traitor. Another thing about Nale is the scar/birthmark. When did he get it. It is mentioned over and over, but there is no backstory. Why hasn't it healed? Is it like Kaladin's slave brands? Did the scarring happen when He was turned to Odium?

The delivery of investiture and the phenomenon at the eye of the storm definitely seem magical to me. The storm itself could have been mundane at one time, but it seems to me that it could have been magically established by Adonalsium. Whatever the history, I would say that is magical now. So any overarching (or reductive) theory needs to take it into account.

Yeah. What Moogle said, basically. The theory is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily fit the data or predict anything, so I'm not sure how it is helpful. Other things to consider: Nightwatcher may be a spren, but do the supplicants really form a bond? There doesn't seem to be any evidence for a spren being in the Radiant (ancient) fabrials. They may "be" spren, but where is the hypothetical bond then? Consider Shardplate, Soulcasters, Healing fabrials, Oathgates and likely more. Cusicesh Larkin - do they have spren? The Highstorms are magical. Where is the bond? Ryshadium? They could easily have a spren bond, I suppose, but I don't know that there is evidence for it. The Unmade are magical, sentient and seem like spren, but are they really spren? If they were once people that gave up their bodies, they would seem like spren, but not really be spren. Depending on how how you define spren, I suppose. For me, Investiture + sentience doesn't make something a spren. Spren have to be born of cognitive activity and are not necessarily sentient, IMO. There are a ton of magical things going on. While spren and bonds seem to be a uniquely Rosharian thing, I don't see that the uses of Investiture on Roshar are limited to using bonds with spren. On other worlds we have seen multiple magic systems and Shardic use of magic outside of the local systems. The evidence seems scanty that Shards can only use their power in a single local system.

Well, maybe. Eshonai's form seems to be influenced by something relating to Odium. I can imagine her being able to be influenced by the Unmade at a greater range and potency than beings not bonded to voidspren. That leaves me less certain about the significance of Adolin not feeling the thrill, but it still seems possible that he has evolved past being affected by the Thrill. Edit: clarify last sentence

Or here is a later version of the first chapter of SA3 on the Tor website. Not canon, Spoilers, small print, etc

We know some of them have glyphs. Both Pattern and Syl manifest as glyphed blades. If some of the ones with glyphs have all ten (particularly Syl, who was a pre-recreance Nahel spren), then it doesn't seem that significant. If that blade uniquely has all ten glyphs, then it could be significant. Would a bondsmith blade uniquely have all ten symbols? That order seems like the behind the scenes heart of the Knights. But what spren do bondsmiths bond? More questions than answers here.

Thanks, good catch!

The parshendi are also referred to by the Stormfather as the "ancient ones." By their songs, they seem to predate the coming of Honor and Cultivation. If the Nightwatcher and the old magic are of Cultivation, then what is the "not old" or "new" magic? That gives the following as a possible magic timeline: Listener spren bonding with highstorms, Aimians doing whatever they do - Adonalsium created these, presumably (the ancient magic). H+C+humanity (and maybe Heralds) arrive The Nightwatcher starts old magicking and the Oathpact is established if it wasn't before. Odium comes and starts using his Unmade in desolations. (the order of these things is uncertain, so I lumped them together. That doesn't mean that they happened at the same time) The spren start bonding with humans to make Surgebinders (the new magic?) Odium makes spren to bond with the Listeners and uses them in Desolations (voidbringers) Ishar imposes ideals on the Surgebinders and spren, turning them into Knights (or is this the new magic?) Some listeners debond, becoming Parshmen. The Knights quit at the Recreance The new Knights arise as the listeners give themselves again to Odium and invoke the Everstorm. Listeners start bonding with the Nahel Bond spren (hinted at in the listener songs. A prophecy?) Edit: reversed 4. and 5. as Kelek's Breath suggested.

Thanks, sorry, good catch, etc. Hopefully the edit covers your concern.

Interesting. It may be that there is magic apart from the "systems." So we could have the three magic systems from above, and other distinct magic. I would be very interested in the exact quote about three magic systems. It seems that with Adonalsium, Cultivation, Honor and Odium there could be many more. The only quote I found in the Interview Database did not limit the number of magic systems to three (quote below). How did you correlate the magic systems to the Shards? Surgebinding seems to me like it could be a combined system between Honor and Cultivation. The female Heralds and their Surges seem more Cultivation related to me. While the Oaths seem more related to Honor, the leveling up seems like a potential Cultivation thing. The fabrial magic does not correlate to Honor necessarily for me either. If anything, the modern fabrials that trap spren could be of Odium. The ancient fabrials, with invested metals, would not be of Odium since they were made and used by the Radiants. The magic animals such as the Larkin seem like a logical "magic system" for Cultivation. There is the alternate Surgebinding chart that seems to have Cultivation portrayed around the margins. What "magic system" does that depict?

SA3 spoilers: I think the cognitive identity of the paper would have been established during it's creation and handling. There might even be an ideal form of paper, so I think the identity would be established independent of Jasnah. Maybe by use of authority, she could change it, but I don't see it as the simplest solution. Ink seems like the kind of complex organic that she would have trouble with. Blood is easier, as an essence.

As far as I know, there is no authoritative explanation. My baseless speculation is that all the lines represent Knight abilities. If we break the lines up as follows, we can speculate about their significance: Lines between Surges and Orders: These could represent the Radiant access to the Surges, so the lines from Windrunners to Adhesion and Gravitation represent the Windrunner access to those surges. Lines between surges: These connect adjacent surges. They could represent each order special ability (for example, if stormriding is the Windrunner special ability, the line between Adhesion and Gravity could represent it because only Windrunners share those surges) These lines could also represent any ability that comes with access to those two surges (unique Windrunner abilities that are not their "special" ability). Lines between orders: Each order is linked to their opposite order with a thicker line as are orders 1-4 and 6-9. These could represent abilities shared by orders, or abilities that these orders have when acting in concert with the linked order. /baseless speculation

Alcohol. He mixes his drinks very uniquely and consumes them in interesting ways.

Purely speculation, but each Highstorm might be a separate occurrence. There might still be only one at any given time. It seems to me that the Realmatic discontinuity (or whatever it is that has Kaladin feeling no pain and talking to the Stormfather) at the center of the Highstorm could be unique, but the storms are spawned anew each time.

Hey wait! People are being pedantic without me. I feel left out. Per Wikipedia, the Declaration of Independence was written by the Continental Congress, not the Constitutional Congress. The United States was governed under the Articles of Confederacy and Perpetual Union (which basically failed) until 1789. The current constitution was then adopted. The Declaration and both constitutions were ratified. As discussed above, the meaning of "legal document" is vague. In theory, you could argue that I could initial a cocktail napkin with the words IOU $5 and it would be a "legal document", but the Constitution is a more direct and precise legal authority than the Declaration. Apparently, certain rights were established by the Heralds, including the right of travel. These "rights" could be analogous to the Declaration. I would hate to be a Skybreaker. Using human language to communicate and all the varying authorities that establish laws would be very difficult to interpret unambiguously.