hoser

In Shallan's illustrations from WoR the Shardplate does not look the same to me.

Thanks Kelsier, +1! Sure, go ahead and change it. The new ending sounds like it might be annoying plotting, but I can't tell w/out reading it. But I bought the book. Give me the new ending, please. Actually, I'll probably buy the ebook anyway, so never mind me. As for 18th Shard's point, does that mean that Jezrien's Honorblade counts as a dead Shardblade? That would explain why Szeth thinks that he can't heal Shard-severed limbs, while Kaladin can. Further, I guess that means that we will have Shard-severed limbs, the healing or lack of which will be vital to future plots.

Did Pattern die? I thought Shallan just rejected the bond and he returned to the Cognitive Realm. Syl talks about being attracted to Kaladin by the gratitude of the men he led. To me this implies that he was a platoon leader when she started bonding him. I don't think he could unintentionally draw until she started bonding him. At other times she seems to imply that it's not so clear-cut. Pattern seems to say that Shallan created illusions including sound before her mother died and she regressed.

With all due respect, I find the quoted post strange. Strictly speaking, the organization is no longer defunct if it has an active membership. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar seem to consider themselves Radiants. They have even had a meeting! Using the circular logic quoted above would mean that no organization could ever be restarted. Seriously though, the original premise of this thread is that there can be new Radiants. I think the original poster deserves the respect of honoring his implicit definitions. If, by your idiosyncratic definitions, the thread is pointless, what value is achieved by trying to impose meaninglessness on the thread? Using a definition of Radiant that allows new members allows us to explore an interesting question: at what levels do the different orders become titular Radiants. Clearly, this happened for Kaladin between level 2 and 3. His conversations with Dalinar and Moash toward the end of WoR are clear and no other Radiant seems to be disputing the contention. Nale doesn't even seem to have any interest in finding an excuse to kill him. It is not as clear what the threshold is for the other Radiants, and so, an interesting question (for some of us, anyway).

You mock. You mock. But that is the point of this thread, is it not?

Yeah. I accept your intrepretation of the WoB. I was just waxing nostalgic for my imaginings before reality intervened. My only other guess for the screaming is insanity, which is really no explanation at all. But does the Honorblade absorb investiture? I imagine Shardblades sever the connections to the spiritual realm. The eyes (windows of the soul) are means of the connection and burn out. When Nightblood wounds somebody, there is corruption of the body at the wound site. I get that the corruption could correspond to investiture drain. What I missed is that Jezrien's Honorblade operates like Nightblade in this regard. Is there evidence that I'm ignoring? If it's purely speculation, then the overall theory seems house-of-cardsish to me. Possible, but ...

It seems very creative and anything is possible. It is strange that the Honorblades are apparently powerful, but display no apparent sentience. So far, the Honorblades seem largely uninteractive. Even Kelek doesn't seem to communicate with his before abandoning it in tWoK. I liked the screaming being an Odious/Unmade connection. This theory has a number of steps without apparent support, so I feel skeptical.

Don't stab me in the back, bro. Am I dead yet?

Szeth can definitely hear the screaming (which I believe to be an Odious influence) when at Urithiru, so I think Odium had an influence there before Adolin's activities. I would actually argue that there was Odious influence in the final conversation between Adolin and Sadeas.

Until we know more, it makes sense to attend to what the spren are saying. Radiant seems to be a title for a Surgebinder of a certain level, kind of like a journeyman Surgebinder. Both Kaladin and Syl think that he was not a Radiant at level 2 and that he became one at level 3. Pattern seemed to indicate that Shallan was not a Radiant at level 3 and maybe became one at level 4. Jasnah seems to have been using her powers for years and I would be amazed if she were not a Radiant. Lift seems to be at level 2 and learning her powers. Her spren has not manifested as a blade yet. She seems to me comparable to Kaladin through most of WoR, so I would guess she is not a Radiant yet. Dalinar and Renarin are interesting. Dalinar seems to be at level 2, but apparently thinks of himself as a Radiant. Do Bondsmiths become Radiants at level 2? Renarin seems to have advanced to the point where he had trouble with Shardblades and healed his eyesight, but he seems neither confident nor masterful. I would guess that he is at level 2 and not a Radiant yet. As always, I know nothing.

All of this. Totally. I don't know of any order more numerous than the Windrunners and Stonewards. As the apparent shock troops of the Radiants, they could have been the most numerous. How the listeners got their blades is interesting to think about. Renegade Knights? Captured Knights forced to betray their oaths? But it doesn't seem like they had very many. Even if there are no more than a three hundred blades, I don't see how a few more would make a difference, so I imagine Dawnshards must be more powerful somehow. It does seem likely that there are caches of Shardblades around.

Hundreds (300 in the Recreance vision) to thousands (10 orders times about 150 = 1500, loosely thousands) =/= hundreds of thousands

The Dawnshards are a sort of Rorschach test for 17th Sharders. What people project onto the concept tells you more about the person than about Roshar . Seriously, though (but ignorant speculation): One theory is that the Listeners were originally the Dawnsingers (before being corrupted by Odiumspren). Dawnshards seem more awesome than just more Shardblades. The way Tanavast refers to them in his last vision (without the Dawnshards ...) suggests to me that they are more important than the Shardblades (which can already become any kind of tool). There are hundreds to thousands of Shardblades. I don't see how a few more would make a difference. I can imagine something that was a significant part of a Shard that could have helped carve (or harmonically vibrate) out the huge rock formations around the Dawncites.

+1 for actually looking up quotes! What happened to the stones in the East that they are actually and actively cursed? Or are all stones cursed unless they are blessed somehow? The Shin revere Heralds, the Sun, maybe Cultivation, maybe Radiants. Are the stones cursed by Odium somehow? By being walked on by the stonewalkers? The bodies of the Listeners? No answer seems clearly correct to me.

Great question. I guess the stone at Urithiru could be sanctified by the Radiants or the Heralds. Or maybe the stones at Urithiru that are walked on are Soulcast. The prohibition on walking on stone might have to do with the ancestor spirits residing in the stone. Soulcast stone might not get spirits for some reason.

Given that we have no information about what the Radiants spend their assets on, I don't see how we can decide that they are over, under or correctly charging relative to their expenses. Clearly they are not overcharging for the value the complainer receives or he wouldn't travel that way. Corruption goes beyond overcharging. The ardents serving the queen were clearly corrupt. I don't see any evidence the Radiants were using the proceeds of their position for personal gain. Given that we don't know what the Radiants are spending their assets on and how their expenses may have changed, I don't see that we can conclude that they are corrupt even if they have increased their charges. They may be corrupt, or they may have good reasons for charging more than some people want.

I took issue with what seemed like more obvious issues before, but seeing this quoted, I am reminded of my concerns. I disagree with the premise here. We have a quote from a whiny rich person about a luxury he consumes costing more. His mission was by no means necessary, nor was he required to use the Oathgates, except for his convenience. I suspect, though I am not certain, that the costs of using the Oathgates may have risen for the likes of that complainer. So far, all the evidence I have seen pointing to Radiant corruption is bald assertion from unreliable sources. I am not aware of any on-screen corrupt actions by Radiants. The Recreance, the largest reason for claiming the Radiants were corrupt, does not seem to have benefited the supposed corrupt individuals nearly as much as remaining Radiant would have. So, for me, the Recreance is evidence against Radiant corruption.

1. I'm with Darkness on this one. What is the supporting evidence for this contention? The crescent scar seems to be quite distinctive and consistent. And I would expect Darkness to know about his namesake .

Really? Where? I totally missed it. Please enlighten me.

"Good" is a very interesting idea. Reading Mistborn, I completely misunderstood what was happening because of my associations with good and evil. Is Honor good? Is Odium evil? What about Cultivation? I clearly see Mr. T and Amaram as dishonorable by the first ideal of the Knights. So far, Odium seems to fully endorse Mr. T's activities. I expect Brandon to surprise me with how "good" relates to Odium and Honor.

galendo, that is exactly the sort of scenario that I consider possible. There is information from interviews and book signings with which you may not be familiar. At one point, Brandon said that the Oathpact is a deal between the Heralds and Honor. From the beginning of tWoK, it apparently involves the Honorblades also.

This makes sense, but I see other possibilities. Pattern describes patterns in nature evolving to become cryptics. So spren could continuously be coming into being, possibly using the increased free investiture from the splintering of Honor. It could all be true actually. Honorspren could evolve from windspren, but Cryptics evolve from patterns. I know nothing, except that Pattern seems to imply that the newer spren didn't come into being all at once, IIRC.

I appreciate your graceful acceptance of my boorishness. I see what you are saying now. The Honorblade level-up for Radiants would make the Shardblades convey the Radiant powers to any wielder, not just the Radiant in question. I was apparently badly paraphrasing the quote in this post that I believe is from an interview with Brandon Sanderson (locally known as WoB). Apparently, only Taln had to go back to Braize in order to hold the desolations off. Taln was known for his stubbornness, so he might have held out for an unbelievably long time. There is also a quote from the Diagram about the Ancient of Stone holding off the Desolations. Taln's order were known as the Stonewards. Ishar was the Herald corresponding to the bondsmiths. Bondsmiths seem to have at least some influence over spren bonds. In tWoK Nohadon complains about surgebinders acting unconstructively, implying to some that there were surgebinders for a time before there were Radiants. Based on a chapter epigraph quoting the in-world Words of Radiance, some believe that Ishar was involved in the oaths and limitations (as we saw when Kaladin temporarily killed Syl) that kept the Radiants from being as chaotic as the precursor Surgebinders.

Actually, I guess we've missed it in the descriptions of Szeth's slaughters, but when he kills people their bodies have been untouched, but their fingernails have been cut through and their hair has been flying free. The demon barber of Roshar. Meanwhile Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin, Lift and Kaladin can have perfect nail clippers, hair scissors and razors that never dull by resizing their sprenblades. Brilliant!

When I review the excerpt, nothing that Elhokar does seems magical to me. Brave, maybe foolhardy and willful, but not exceptionally skilled or powerful.