hoser

I totally agree. There are a ton of problems with the idea of Dalinar draining the gems in Elhokar's suit. For example: Elhokar is wearing his armor, so it is sort of his investiture. Investiture tends to interfere with other investiture. So how could Dalinar drain Elhokar's suit? As you point out, Dalinar's suit should be drained first and then any spheres he was carrying. It just seems like a sketchy plot to put drained spheres in Elhokar's suit. What are the chances that it would matter? That and Dalinar is clearly consuming investiture. As always, I know nothing.

Wow! What an amazing set of theories. Kaladin can act as a Windrunner at two oaths. Presumably he can do more at five oaths. And then at ten oaths, his blade makes it so that he can act as a Windrunner (which he could do already), but use stormlight less efficiently? Color me confused. The Knights became corrupted and were only pretending to be moral so they could get some amazing advantages. They are so corrupted that when they learn of something, they abandon their advantages and allow themselves to be slaughtered. Color me more confused. If the Heralds do not return to Braize within a given amount of time, a new desolation starts. The knights somehow get sucked into the Oathpact so they have to return to Braize also. The knights stick around for millenia after the last desolation and no new Desolation happens. Color me totally confused. Edit: I just noticed that this was your first post. Please accept my apologies. The tone of this post seems wrong as a response to a first post. While I do find the theories confusing, the above seems harsher than I want it to be. Welcome! Please forgive me. I can only provide 1 upvote, but if I could give two, I would give one as a welcome and another as an apology.

While I can envision a deal where the Heralds being tortured is a part, I have trouble understanding how it fits with Honor's intent. The first ideal shared by all the orders seems important to Honor's intent. Isn't deliberately subjecting the Heralds to torture putting destination before journey? It is easier for me to imagine Honor being outmaneuvered by Odium resulting in the Herald's torture. I have no evidence to support this speculation.

Actually, I think he clearly was on the path. The first two books were full of references to how he had changed to be more honorable. He was following the codes and studying the in-world WoK. In the chasmfiend hunt, his actions were incredible. In the chasmfiend hunt and when he saved Kaladin's squad, his armor seemed to glow. The surgeon remarked that his ability to fight considering the scars he had was incredible. When he healed with stormlight at the end, he remembered that it had happened before. I wonder whether Dalinar could have drained the gems in Elhokar's suit.

Great question. Soon after the previous desolation ended? Which just makes the question: How do the Heralds know that the Desolation is ended? This presumes that the previous Desolation has to end before the next one can begin.

The theory seems certainly possible. My recollection is that the opponents were called "devils." I don't remember anything else about the opponent. While I can imagine Aimians or another race being the opposition, I am not aware of any evidence about who or what the opposition were. Where does it clearly show that they were fighting ordinary people?

I have no idea whether the Recreance was part of some grand strategy, but it certainly seems possible. It could be that it actually is working currently. Maybe Odium needed to think he could win in order to commit his forces and be defeated. The preservation of the dawnchant and the in-book Way of Kings at Vanrial suggest that it is possible. The Knights and the spren could have agreed to a plan which was compatible with their oaths except for the part about turning the weapons over to the non-Radiants. This would explain why the knights functioned until the moment of turning over their weaponry and ceased being Radiants immediately. Turning the weapons over could have been the bad thing to achieve a good result that broke the oaths. If someone who has an electronic copy of WOR would quote the epigraphs for chapters 38 and 40, it might help this discussion, as they seem quite relevant and I believe the one from chapter 40 follows the one from chapter 38 directly.

I hope this addresses the question. I believe that there is WoB that the Greatshells could not function with their enormous mass unless spren were reducing the mass somehow. Also, Rysn is told that the Reshi Islandspren reduced her speed of falling, possibly saving her life. I think that also correlates with her experience. So that may be why people believe that the Greatshellspren affect gravity. I have nothing to add to what natc said above about the other spren.

Welcome! We know that the surviving spren consider it a betrayal. However, the bonded radiantspren must have been around when the Radiants were planning the Recreance (assuming Tanavast's projection was accurate). So planning the Recreance wasn't a betrayal of the Oaths. It is not clear that the spren involved considered it a betrayal. Furthermore, the jettisoning of the Shards was very deliberate. If they didn't want people to have the Shards, they could have been stashed in Urithiru, for example. I suspect Sandersonian twists in our interpretation of the meaning of the Recreance.

I need to start a troll thread about cognitive time-bubble based FTL. The problem is that Kurk has always been able to see through my BS even when I didn't realize that I was BSing. What is this thread about? Oh yeah, spren's spren. Maybe it ties into the fundamental nature of the Cognitive. I get that spren are created based on investiture and intelligent thought. But how is the thought associated with the spren? If someone has a passing thought about the wind being capricious, that probably doesn't create a windspren. But somehow the effect of many thoughts get aggregated to create a single windspren. How does that focusing occur? Looking at it another way, consider the Stormfather. He started out as a splinter of Honor and focused the thoughts about Honor and storms after the splintering. Why? Why wasn't a different spren of Honor created by people's thinking about Honor? Why aren't there Almighty spren, as well? I don't get how the thoughts that invest spren are channeled to create the spren we see. If we assume that spren can't have spren, we can ask why. People thinking about things creates spren. Assume that spren thinking about things doesn't create spren. People are more physical and more spiritual than spren. Is it the thought by beings that are also more spiritual that causes spren to be attracted and created?

No offense, but ... Executive summary: Smaller: yes, supported by text and WoB Shorter: contradicted by text (it is "long"), unsupported speculation, reasons

Thanks for your thoughtful addressing of my concerns! As far as I can tell, this is another oft-repeated canard that it bothers me to see from experienced Sharders. I believe the notion that it is shorter is a misinterpretation of the following (Prologue of tWoK): The blade is specifically described as long, suggesting it may even be longer than some. Apparently, it is not as thick, not as wide or both. Having seen the blade illustrations in WoR, I can imagine a two-sided blade being less ornate, as the fanciful shapes of the Sprenblades often seem to be single-edged forms (although since they can change shape, they can take two sided forms, or maybe they have edges on the weird shapes). Please let me know if I have erred in this, as I have so often in other matters.

We know that dead sprenblades can change, as they adapted to gems. It makes some sense, as the spren revive somewhat when recalled. Live sprenblades can take a variety of forms. Do we have any support for Honorblades changing? It is an interesting question. The Honorblades presumably have more investiture, but they don't seem to have the same "life" that spren do. Are Honorblades sentient? There are different ways to read these tea leaves. If the other Heralds have fancy blades, I could totally see their leader having a simple elegant blade. I could see the Herald of war known for his stubbornness having a spike. I could also see that the blades became simpler over time away from their Heralds. If they did become simpler, would they become ornate again in the hands of their Heralds? There are so many possibilities. As far as I know, there is no evidence supporting the idea that Jezrien's blade changed. If I'm missing something, I apologize and would love to see it, as I am often wrong. This is not to say that it didn't change. It just seems like an unsupported theory at this point. I have no problem with unsupported theories and arguing for them. I do think that we should be clear that that is what we are doing when we do it. I also expect more from someone with your knowledge in your position. When you say: It looks like you are stating the Honorblade changing as fact. Given that you are a moderator and a "Tarachin Superstar," I fear people will think that it is more than an unsupported theory. Likewise when you say (emphasis added): The use of "all" seems misleading to me, as the description is of only seven blades, excluding Taln's and Jezrien's. Please don't be offended by my nitpicking. I totally respect the enormous contributions you have made, and I want to emphasize that I do not consider this a big deal.

Szeth's Honorblade was not one of the ones described at the beginning of tWoK (the ones planted in the ground do not include Jezrien's). I am not aware of any evidence that Szeth's Honorblade changed. Have I missed something?

He could certainly try to convince her to join. I doubt he would, since his chance is between slim and none and Amaram loves his reputation. If Jasnah got wind of Amaram in an organization trying to bring back the voidbringers, I don't like smArmyIam's chances of dying of old age. He would be well advised to avoid her at all costs. We agree then that he wouldn't succeed. I read your previous post as saying that he would try to convince her, which I doubt. She freely shares her conclusion with anyone who will listen, so he can benefit from her research anyway. He should get the information from her via a third party, in any case.

Given that Jasnah saw through despised disliked Amaram even before Gavilar died and was wondering what Gavilar and Amaram were up to together, I can't see Amaram convincing Jasnah of anything. From the WoR Prologue:

The explanation seems fine, except it seems to me to be stating speculation as fact. It seems possible, but it seems like only one of many possible explanations. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that I see many ways it might not be right.

Heleran's attempted hit on Amaram seems very different from the way we've seen Nale operate. While it is certainly possible that Heleran was working w/Nalan's group, I am far from certain. The following items seem different from Nalan's MO: Nalan is in charge of his operations or operates alone. Nalan has been careful to avoid the kind of wanton slaughter that Heleran perpetrated. Nalan has operated discreetly. Nalan has communicated with his victims, operating in a vague semblance of the forms of justice. As for Mr. T and the Diagramists; Odium seemed to be completely on board with Szeth's activities (screaming, etc pointing to unmade cooperation) in general and with the hit on Dalinar in particular. The attempted hit on Elhokar brings into doubt their competence and ability to think things through. While the Diagram may be impossibly brilliant, we have reason to believe that it is fundamentally stormed up. It also suffers from the fact that as Mr. T's day of brilliance recedes, the accuracy of the plan decays due to accumulated divergence from reality.

In the pre-prison duel w/Adolin, Kaladin seems to fight with an almost precognitive awareness when using the helm. I read it as possibly pressure related. It seems potentially peculiar to windrunners. There are unexplained lines in the surgebinding chart that seem significant also.

Thanks, Voidus! There is nothing in the Coppermind under "timeline". For the Stormlight Archive, there is nothing under "Chronology" or "Timeline". Maybe some added references would be helpful. One amusing sequence: 1171 Shallans brother Helaran disappears and is proclaimed dead[38] 1172 Kaladin rescues Amaram and gives up a Shardblade and Shardplate[39]

I would search for "timeline" and "chronology" in the forums. People have done good work that you can build on. When you're done, it might be a good thing to add to the coppermind for the series.

Answering "why" the heralds have to suffer. Argent mentioned the speculation that the Tranquilline Halls became Braize/Damnation. {Speculation} Imagine that the Oathpact resurrected you to a decent place. The Heralds deal would be that they have to serve, but they get cool swords and powers and come back to life forever. It wouldn't be too bad. When the place you come back to life at gets controlled by the epitome of hate with godlike powers that you have continually defeated, you will suffer. {/Speculation}

To say that the listeners didn't object is an inference. I base it on the following: They still signed the treaty. Gavilar was surprised that they were behind the assassination. They didn't explain afterwards. If they had objected beforehand and Gavilar had told someone, then there would have been no reason for reticence later. Szeth expected to surprise the Alethi. My only guess that they didn't want people to know they were potential voidbringers, so they didn't want to explain themselves and open that can of worms. Even though understandable, if this were true, it would put the onus more on the listeners than Gavilar. For me, this is a well-supported inference. Not proven! The only certainty is my ignorance. Edit: added guess, paragraph, formatting

Whew! Safely back in fantasy. Not wanting to rehash too much ... Moelach (not sure about spelling) had already been around for a year or so, IIRC. If Gavilar knew that he was threatening the Parshendi w/enslavement and they objected strongly, refusing to sign the treaty if he went forward w/his plan, I can imagine it as a hostile action. But if Gavilar doesn't understand the implications and the Parshendi don't enlighten him and object, then I can't see it as a declaration of war. Gavilar seemed to be negotiating a peace treaty that he intended to honor. And he was doing something else that he didn't see as hostile to the listeners. As different from declaring war as a faint breeze is from a highstorm, IMO.

What Moogle said, and ... How do you explain Szeth's training? He has a whole vocabulary including "lashings" and an understanding of what he can do. Unlike Kaladin, who has to figure it out w/vague hints from Syl. Szeth doesn't even have Syl to talk to. If Szeth just picked up a sword that had been on the floor for millenia, he would not have been trained that well, IMO.