hoser

The larger point about the limited types of Radiant Fabrials may or may not be true. It's hard to say when we've seen so few. The Radiants had some sort of elevator in Urithiru. I guess it could work off the gravity surge, but it doesn't seem like a direct application. The Heralds, Spren and Radiants had various detection abilities as we can see from the following: Kaladin's noticing Szeth's surgebinding during the Highstorm dream Syl observing that there were many people near as they approached the warcamps (this seems most like the alerter) The Radiants were apparently able to detect the midnight essence at great range. Nale was apparently able to detect surgebinding all around the continent. I think it is too soon to be sure that the newer fabrials provide capabilities that the Radiants didn't have. Obviously, if it was something the Radiants could easily do, they wouldn't have made a fabrial for it.

I agree that the Unmade are the listeners' Gods. I would like to suggest an alternative interpretation as to the nature of the Unmade. I think the Unmade started out as living beings that gave up their bodies and gained investiture to become more or less pure investiture. As such they are essentially spren, even though they have a different history than the other spren that we see. After all, what is a spren? I think it is coherent investiture, some of which can think for itself. So where you see two groups referenced as the Unmade, I think they are one and the same.

I think Kaladin would not be able to, as invested objects resist other investiture. An invested person (Shallan) would be resistant to Kaladin's investiture, so he would have to be much stronger in investiture to nullify hers. This is similar to why Szeth could not affect people in Shardplate. I think Pathfinder is referring to when Kaladin is falling with Szeth in their first battle. I believe Kaladin draws stormlight from the spheres that Szeth is carrying, not Szeth himself. The interesting question for me is whether Kaladin could detect the use of investiture. Certainly Nale could detect when Lift was invested. Kaladin didn't detect Shallan's investiture when she first arrived at the meeting w/the king and highprinces, nor when she uses it to lift him into their highstorm shelter. In one case he was not as advanced as a Radiant and in the other he was effectively not a Radiant. It would be interesting to see what would happen currently.

Baseless speculation: The Alethi heard that the listeners had gods. Seeing the Chasmfiends around and not understanding the relationship w/the Unmade, the Alethi put 2 and 5 together to make 4.

As for one light and one dark eye being possible, there is another example besides Highprince Valam's bastard son. Graves, Mr. T's lighteyed shardbearing agent who tried to assassinate Elhokar, is cited as having married a darkeye and having a mixed-eye child. I really like the creative thinking abpout Gaz. It could be an interesting plot development, but I don't see it as possible. I cite a selection from Chapter 24 of WoR and my understanding of the nahn/dahn system. As I understand it, dahn is for lighteyes and nahn is for darkeyes. Children start one rank lower than their parents and can be elevated during their lifetimes. Consider the following quote from WoR, Ch 24: As I read it, he was born sixth nahn or lower. The offspring of a lighteye-darkeye union would be at least first nahn.

Wow. Gaz. Shallan's squire. If the Lopen can regrow an arm ... I never thought about this before. Gaz could see out of that eye again. His flashback in tWoK didn't seems to be from a purely darkeye POV, but doesn't seem definitive. I quote what seems like the most relevant excerpt below. I note that he was a soldier. IIRC, lighteyes are officers or archers. Of course, a mixed-eye might take the lower status.

Kaladin, Adolin, Dalinar, Jasnah or Navani interacting w/one of Shallan's secret identities could be interesting and amusing up to a point. I trust Brandon not to make it tedious or overwrought. I don't see Shallan being Veil except on a mission for the Ghostbloods. The only "advantage" being Veil has over being a random lighteyes is that the Ghostbloods would recognize her. In most circumstances, that would be a disadvantage. So I don't see Veil occurring much, if at all. The point of the OP is not dependant on Shallan being Veil particularly, anyway, so this is mostly irrelevant.

As you wish ... Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 848). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Exactly my point. Unless you designed the gems to be in a structure that was exposed enough to be autocharged or some other solution. Navani may be babbling about what she knows, while not understanding the elevator. She might also understand elements of its operation. I don't see how you can be certain which is the case. My point is that it may be using fabrials similar to the modern fabrials. You have offered nothing of substance to refute it. Given that the Radiants very deliberately passed on very few of the many fabrials they used, we cannot conclude anything about the ones that they did not pass on. We do know that the few fabrials they did pass on (plate, Soulcaster, Oathgate) worked differently from each other, so it is quite possible that the ones they didn't pass on may work differently. Invested Kaladin does not block Shardblades very well. Shardplate blocks Shardblades, but is not impervious to it. Invested gems can be cut by normal swords, even. Shardblades and the guards seem to be the only things that are impervious to Shardblades. The guards may not even be invested. The Oathgate lock even changes shape to accommodate the blade, so I don't think it is made of the same stuff as the guard. The only thing we've seen so far that is malleable and and impervious to Shardblades are other Shardblade-spren. As it is the only teleportation fabrial we have seen, I fail to see any point to this statement. What is interesting is that when Jasnah teleports (presumably without a fabrial), something shiny circumscribes the space just before she appears. I assume that this is Ivory, her spren. When the Oathgate is used, a similar phenomenon occurs. This might be a spren, as I have trouble imagining what else it could be. If a spren, it is presumably the spren of the Oathgate or the Radiantblade used to activate the Oathgate.

I think we really don't know the range of old style fabrial construction yet. Navani says that she doesn't understand Shardplate. Dalinar describes Navani talking about conjoined gemstones when discussing the elevator at Urithiru. The Oathgate lock is impervious to Shardblade, suggesting that it is a spren, as does the circumscribing flash of the teleport area (which matches the description of Jasnah's arrival at the end).

Hoid meets someone surprising at the end. Shallan is mentored by a new person. Dalinar leads an army into annihilation and is saved by Radiants Kaladin is depressedimprisoned Jasnah protects herself from a Ghostblood assassination attempt. Mr. T instigates mass slaughter. By the end of the book, Mr. T is leading as many countries as there are books. Szeth commits mass mayhem before being recruited by another organization to commit more mass mayhem. We see Kelek (assuming Kelek is the one talking to Nale in book 2) interact w/one other Herald at the beginning. Eshonai is defeated and injured. The listeners make things much worse for everybody rather than just communicate. Elhokar, while seemingly well-intentioned, has a key moment where he childishly undermines the Kohlin plans. Patterns that I predict will end: Shallan acknowledges to herself for the first time having killed yet another parent. Navani is involved w/a different Kohlin brother.

One kind of pointless explanation would be that the Soulcaster people are slowly becoming like the Soulcaster fabrial. It is very interesting that the fabrials and the users of the fabrial are referred to with the same name. The eyes, which burn out when shardbladed, may be the link to the soul/spiritual realm. They are analogues to the gems, which store the energy from the spiritual realm (stormlight) in the physical. The flesh, while not becoming metallic, is changing in a way that might resemble the "body" of the fabrial more. I fail to see how it matters as more than local color to the story unless the fabrial-like more experienced ardents, now forced to work in shifts, find that they can soulcast without the fabrials. The mechanism of the change seems mysterious also. The only thoughts I have on the matter are: the ardents identify and are identified with the fabrials so deeply that their spiritual or cognitive identity is being changed. the process of exerting their will to change things subjects their spirit to be changed to be more like the objects they are changing or the fabrial they use.

I totally agree that there is WoB that H&C were on Roshar before Odium. Even so, there are a number of explanations of Vorin mythology that include, but are not limited to the Tranquiline Halls being pre-odium Roshar. My point is that the accuracy of this theory is completely independent of your explanation of Vorin practices.

@Outis I have been confused, but I am starting to understand. I think you have two theories. This theory is very interesting, and, to me, plausible. I have never seen this theory and I have haunted this forum for quite a while. I would say the commonest theory was that the Tranquiline Halls were once Braize, but I don't think there is anything remotely approaching a consensus. As far as I can tell, most people don't know enough to have a clear opinion. This is what I see as a separate and independent theory. Your Vorinism theory could work independently of whether humanity emigrated from off planet before the Desolations started on Roshar. Odium is currently "on" Braize (sp?) (WoB, I believe), a planet in the Rosharian system identified in Vorin Mythology as Damnation and possibly where the Heralds are tortured (see "Prelude to the Stormlight Archive": hooks, fires, searing, driving to the bone, centuries, millennia, blah, blah, blah). I would say that "showing up" can be off-planet, but in-system. There are a number of possibilities: Tranquiline Halls are in another system entirely that H&C were at before, then Odium chased them to Roshar. Tranqilline Halls were on another planet in the Rosharian system: Braize or the third one. Tranquiline Halls are on a non-planetary entity in the Rosharian system (Roshar has 3 moons, for example) Tranquiliine Halls are on Roshar. I fail to see how the Tranquiline Halls "must be a place on Roshar." IMO, linking this "Roshar is the Tranquiline Halls theory" with what I see as your "Vorinism theory" distracts me from your very interesting and well presented concepts about the development of Vorinism.

Why look for a place where nothing ever happens? This seems like a very creative and interesting idea. There is evidence for a migration in the books. Vorin Mythology Listener Mythology References to the listeners as ancient ones Shinovar's earthlike appearance The way the apparent "native" fauna are more adapted to the spren. Horses, chickens and humans are less so. The Heralds being compelled to return to Braize (an actual planet) as part of the Oathpact. That leaves a lot to be explained away. Vorinism seems to post-date the Heralds and even the Knights in some regards, dominating at a time when actual understanding seems to have been in short supply. OTOH, WOB has Adonalsium investing Roshar first, then H&C arriving, then Odium. The Tranquilline Halls could also be pre-Odium Roshar and Odium's arrival could have somehow been the casting out. Edit: added other hand

The questions I have relate to the Santhid. Did Jasnah communicate w/it and help inspire it to rescue Shallan? Did she use it to move her trunk? I also don't like being that guy, but what is the downside to having a less spoilerific title? Like say, "Book 3 Female POV Reading."

I totally endorse everything mostgratuitous, Kurkistan and Moogle have written. There may be nothing more to it. The possibility also exists that Hoid has acquired investiture of Adonalsium. Roshar has been invested by Adonalsium. Adonalsium investiture, as it is the basis of all the Shards, has the potential to be some sort of universal donor or receptor (in the privacy of one fanciful fan's mind, at least). There are more things in the Cosmere than are dreamt of in my philosophy .

IIRWOBC, Wit knows when and where he needs to be, but not what he will find there or what he needs to do. Accordingly, he might have known he needed to be there, but not that he would find that he needed to encourage Shallan. So he would be startled to find Shallan and unsure of how to proceed until he explored the situation by ingesting some metal powder. As I read the story, he was unusually kind and gentle w/young Shallan, so he was startled by her affectionate reaction when she saw him again.

I beg to differ. Kal and Szeth are obviously both smart. There are numerous differences between them, however: Szeth has been trained in Kammar, windrunning and the use of Honorblade by the people who have had them for millenia (you don't think he made up all the information we get from his POVs?). Kal has been trained as a healer and a spearman. Really, Szeth is his mentor in windrunning more than anyone else. Kal can heal shardblade-severed limbs. Without this, he likely might not have survived the final aerial fight. Kal is aligned with the spren, which he is just figuring out how to use. Szeth is aligned with Odium and possibly accompanied by the attention of an unmade (the screaming is characteristic of Yelig-nar). While it is not clear whether this is actually helpful, we really don't know enough to separate the effects of the various influences on him. So when Kaladin and Shallan killed a Chasmfiend while he was unaided by surgebinding effects it was witless and purely based on the advantages he wasn't experiencing? When he jumps into a fight against four Shardbearers with only a spear, he is witless, just prevailing by creating a mess that his advantages pull him out of? Putting the helm on his hand and using it as a shield was not creative and intelligent? The way we seem to be able to gauge people's intelligence and "native" fighting skill is just amazing given all the uncontrolled variables. To me there seem to be so many differences in Szeth's and Kaladin's situations that it is impossible to tease out how much effect each difference makes. I get someone identifying with Szeth and wanting him to do better, but this last post doesn't even seem to be about the same book that I read.

Some relevant facts: In the Skyfall vision, the Radiants popped in on rural Natanatan from Alethkar within an hour or so of the midnight essence showing up. When stormriding, Kaladin can sense Szeth's use of investiture and witnesses him at work. So the use and products of investiture may well be detectable by skilled practitioners. Nalan may be able to find Szeth whenever he wants without following him around. This could also explain how he decided to go after Ym and Lift. It is unclear to me how the parshendi got access to Szeth and had faith that he would be able to complete the assassination. Nalan could easily have been involved with connecting Szeth to the parshendi.

Welcome! The purity of only posting to start a thread is brilliant. Upvote! I haven't seen any signs that Amaram understands about the spren. IIRC, their theory seemed to be that bringing back the voidbringers would bring back the Radiants and the Heralds. Which is sort of true ... The spren came back because they sense the imminent Desolation. I agree that Amaram wants to be good, and is good whenever he thinks he can afford it. He does not have faith, though. Deep down, he believes that sacrifices may need to be made. He, like Mr. T., is willing to make the sacrifice of sacrificing others. So pure, but why doesn't he belch rainbows? He is working w/Restares, whom Gavilar expected to kill him. He seems to be a younger, more Alethi version of Mr. T. It is interesting that we have the Amaram of the Sons of Honor and Mr. T claiming to be inspired by Gavilar, but fundamentally believing the ends justify the means. So many questions! Gavilar was giving Amaram an important mission when Jasnah interrrupted them. Did he know that Amaram was working w/Restares? Is Restares the "not of the local species" in Tukar that the Ghostbloods were referring to? What do the Sons of Honor understand about the spren? Navani has suggested that Gavilar was not the man people thought he was. Was he also an "ends" person? There are hints that he may have started to attract a spren, possibly even the BondStormfather. He asked Dalinar not to carouse on the night he died. Jasnah asks when he became so discerning. He has the weird, possibly voidish sphere that he gives to Szeth. Who is he trying to keep it from? Where is Gavilar's heart really?

This! And If the people that we've been reading about end up not mattering ... what's the point of reading the books.

Thank you maxal. I think that this is the nub of our disagreement. I can't read Jasnah's quote the way you do. For someone to be "dedicated to combat," fighting would be their number one priority. If I were to make an arbitrary 0 to 10 scale of interest in fighting, I would only call someone "dedicated to combat" if they were at 8 or above, comparable to Adolin or Kaladin. To say someone is "not a warrior, period," I would have to rate them a 0 on that scale. As I would rate Shallan a 1 or 2, she meets your definition of dedicated to combat, but not mine. So, long story short, I think we see the characters somewhat comparably, but disagree about what "dedicated to combat" means. Does this fit your understanding?

The female radiant in the Starfalls vision is a Stoneward, as shown by the amber glow of her armor. Stonewards are one of the obviously martial orders. One can be a totally awesome fighter without being dedicated to combat. I don't think anybody believes that only one in four radiants were deadly. Given that desolations were widely separated, if most radiants were dedicated to combat, being a radiant would be quite dull.

Shallan could easily have gotten instruction in self-defense from Tyn using normal weapons. She learned forgery, which they couldn't do while traveling (unlike accents). It seems clear to me that learning to fight is not a high priority. While it seems possible that she would learn attain some fighting skills, I can't imagine her ever being "dedicated to combat." Jasnah herself didn't claim that the proportion was precise. My point was that even within the tiny, biased sample we see, it would be easy to envision that over half the radiants are not "dedicated to combat".