Amanuensis

Likewise, I respect your opinion as well. I haven't read either book in quite a while, but whenever I read Amaram, I don't get the feeling his character is as simple as holier than thou and power hungry. I certainly believe he has a hire opinion of himself, given the culture he was raised in. That and he's privy to information most people don't have, and has people with unknown motives whispering in his ear about what's necessary. Personally, I think everything that's happened with Kaladin will humble him. I'm not suggesting the change will be immediate, but from my perspective, people aren't static and unchanging. Could he get worse? Continue to oppose the Radiants? Sure. That's for Brandon to decide. But I don't think that'll be the direction he goes. In a way, it all comes to Kaladin. There's only two ways for him to progress as a character, via Amaram. Vengeance and forgiveness. If Kaladin exacts vengeance via murder, he's no better than Amaram, and deals with the same problems Adolin is going through now, albeit on a less severe scale. He could, however, petition to get him arrested. That's a more likely path, but that requires direct conflict, in which Amaram will be forced to deal with the result of his actions and respond accordingly. One possibility there is Amaram giving up on becoming a Radiant and deciding to ruin them. Maybe he comes to hate Kaladin and embrace that hatred and it twists him to work for Odium. But, in my opinion, that's not the moral of this story. I would much rather see Amaram try to redeem himself and see how Dalinar and Kaladin react. Whether he fails, succeeds, or dies trying, I can't say for sure. But I think the most beneficial character path for Kaladin is learning to forgive him, and in order to do that, Amaram needs to do something that warrants forgiveness.

I don't think it'll be a Prologue, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it in a flashback. Eshonai's Prologue begins quite a ways before the actual ceremony / assassination. We very well could see what happened before / as Dalinar was getting ridiculously drunk. I wouldn't even be surprised of something explicitly happened to drive him that far, and that said thing could be revealing.

That's not long after Dalinar stripped him of his cloak, correct? And before Kaladin was revealed a Radiant? If so, I don't see that contradictory to where I think Amaram will go at all. At this point he doesn't believe what he did was wrong (in the context of his goals, not in the context of morality). What Amaram did is undoubtedly immoral. But I don't think anything is as simple as good and evil. Likewise with Adolin killing Sadeas, it certainly wasn't good or just. But it was justified in the sense that Sadeas was asking for it, and if left to go about his business, very likely would have prevented to Kholins from achieving what's necessary to save the world. Adolin too is an example of doing something immoral for a greater purpose, which is a reoccurring theme in this series. I don't expect that Brandon will personally reward or admonish actions such as these. I think individual situations will dictate, and that he's going to leave it up to the reader to interpret things, as he prefers. But I would, unfortunately, say that both what Amaram and Adolin did were net-positive, in that the first made Kaladin the man who he is today and put him in a position to save Dalinar from Szeth, defeat him, and allow Szeth the opportunity to be redeemed, and in that the second removed a genuinely horrible man with ambitions to destroy the protagonists from the equation of the apocalypse.

I don't remember that, to be honest. Will have to check WoR. Any idea what chapter this is? Or any keywords I can search for? EDIT: As for the Hoid bit, I think that's more to deal with the principle of Sadeas being upfront with his being crem but Amaram hiding it.

I don't agree that's why Amaram did what he did. It's possible, but... From The Way of Kings, Chapter 51: Amaram clearly feels bad about this decision. Sure, he could be using Restares to deflect the blame off himself, which may be a factor, but we can't ignore that he's unhappy about this decision. It took several hours for him to make this choice. Given the fact he spared Kaladin to begin with, he proves he still has honor. If he was truly evil he would have killed Kaladin as well. I won't say Amaram isn't at fault, but the Sons of Honor are clearly misguided if not brainwashed entirely. I think Kaladin turning out to be a Radiant will have a huge impact on his character and where things go from here. The alternative to him trying to redeem himself is turning against the thing he was aiming to do the whole time: restoring the Knights Radiant and saving Roshar. EDIT: And I think that's out of character for him. I believe Amaram has a lot of room to grow.

Personally I don't think Amaram will be a villain for much longer. He was misguided, sure, and did immoral things as a result, but I wouldn't say he's evil. He did what he believed was necessary to save the world. Now that a big part of that has been proven wrong, I think he'll start a journey towards becoming an actual Radiant.

I am relatively confident that Honor isn't known for having good foresight, so those eyes belonging to someone that Dalinar specifically knows is off-the-table. That being said, I believe that it's Brandon foreshadowing the Champion, still. I've been meaning to create my own thread for this, probably after I conduct my pre-OB rereads of WoK and WoR so I can gather more evidence, but my current theory is that Dalinar - or, more specifically, the Blackthorn - will be Odium's Champion. Here's why. From the back cover of Tor's The Way of Kings: This has been talked about by a lot of different people. I, personally, am interpreting the 'one who will destroy us' as Odium's Champion. That means the candidates are Kaladin, Szeth, Shallan and Dalinar. Personally I'm ruling out Szeth because he starts off the first book as a villain. Pretty much everyone hates the guy already. For him to become the Champion of Odium, especially after recent events, would have the least impact on the narrative, both regarding the plot and the characters. I am pretty confident that Szeth's character arc is going to involve redeeming himself and fighting alongside the Radiants. He's also my greatest candidate for the ultimate hero, given 'one may redeem us' (he does this along the way of redeeming himself) and that he's the new wielder of Nightblood, who is probably one of the most interesting / powerful tools Roshar has to use against Odium. I'm also ruling Shallan out because, ultimately, I don't feel it's her. Besides her interactions with Pattern at the end of WoR, I can't recall her ever using the word hate, or really expressing that emotion, except maybe towards herself? The only thing that I think may be foreshadowing towards her becoming the Champion is Pattern's insistence that she will kill him. Could be Brandon hinting at her betraying her oaths to join Odium but... I dunno. Like I said, I just don't feel it. For the longest time, Kaladin was who I thought it was going to be. Hatred is so prevalent in his character and he's got a long history of regression and failures. I thought that something was going to happen that pushes him overboard. Maybe something that makes him realize not only light eyes are terrible, but all people are, like a betrayal of someone who he really trusts. I liked the idea of Szeth and Kaladin fighting one more time, perhaps in the Everstorm, and this time Szeth proving victorious / the hero. I also liked the idea of seeing how Bridge Four deals with Kaladins becoming evil. That being said, Kaladin is a character that inspires so much hope in people that I don't think Brandon will ultimately take this route. Even if an Anakin Skywalker type storyline might be interesting (if done correctly), it doesn't really match the overall themes of this book: which brings me to Dalinar. There's a lot of different ways these words can be interpreted, but no matter which way you do, it's extremely clear how important they are to SA's theme. You see it especially in characters like Gavilar and Taravangian, the first who is willing to bring back the Parshendi's Old Gods to start the apocalypse again in order to unify Alethkar, and Taravangian who is willing to euthanize thousands of ill and injured to gather intel and also send a powerful assassin after the governmental leaders of many nations, just so he can manipulate events. A lot of people have mixed feelings about these two and what they're doing, both in world and via the readers. It all boils down to journey before destination: what horrible things need to be done to save the world. I think Dalinar is going to be reaching this same question soon and have to make a decision. And I think I can predict what his decision will be. From tWoK Chapter 75. Honor himself has informed Dalinar that mankind's best chance is getting Odium to choose a champion. What better way to do that is to directly offer oneself? Especially when your one most important mission is to... Gavilar had reached the same conclusion, not long ago. He might have been the one to start things off, but as the Diagram says, the Desolation was coming anyway. All he did was accelerate it. I believe Dalinar will find out what his brother was doing, probably hate him for a while because of it, and then as things become desperate realize that, in a way, he was right. Except the sacrifice that needed to be made was not inherently selfish, like starting the Desolation for glory. The sacrifice that needed to be made was giving himself up to become that enemy. To not become a praised hero, but a despised villain. I believe Dalinar will submit himself to the Odium completely and become enthralled by the Thrill. He will renounce his human names and become solely known as the Blackthorn. The world will fear him, and become united in his struggles to fight him. Brandon has even stated that Dalinar is among the most powerful men in the world, and that was before he became a Bondsmith. All of his experience in war has crafted him into a fearsome general, one who's talents are muted by his age and morality. I can't think of any character who could do a better job than Dalinar when it comes to serving Odium, let alone challenge the rest of the world. Plus, just think about how that would impact everyone else. Adolin, Renarin, Elhokar, Kaladin, Navani? Bridge Four? The Kholin Army? The other Highprinces? His "betrayal" would have such a profound effect on so many characters, and it would undeniably make a beautiful story. Especially with how much Adolin longed to see the Blackthorn in action since the beginning of tWoK. My guess? This will be the SA5 conclusion, so Dalinar's got plenty of time to build up the Knights Radiant and train some people, like Kaladin and his children, to take the reigns when he turns (remember how ready he was to give up his title of Highprince to Adolin?). I'm sure he'll have plenty of attempts to reach out to other nations fail, too, as they did when he warned them of the Everstorm, which would push him towards this decision. I think it fits in line with his character (if enough bad happens from this point, onward) and is so beautifully tragic, I almost would be disappointed if things went another route (although I'll love Brandon no matter what he writes). Thoughts?

I wonder what made him Bondsmith material. Had an obsession with gluing broken pots back together?

Ah. Sadly a bit late, since I already wasted an hour or so composing my other theory. But yeah, this seems to be correct. Which, in it's own way, is very interesting. Let us dissect that quote, quick. "Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king's death." This means that this very meeting Eshonai has witnessed was the first time that Taravangian learned about Gavilar's visions, which, in turn, lead him to seeking the Nightwatcher, no? That makes me wonder if there was anyone else present who was not already in the know (not a member of the Sons of Honor) and that this secret / impromptu meeting was designed to convince influential figures like the King of Kharbranth to join his side. We know Meridas was there, and now, Taravangian. That leaves one officer left and two women with long dresses. I've seen people guess that Restares is the man and the women are two Adrotagia, Aesudan or maybe even Evi. Can we think of any other prominent females, perhaps that rule other governments, that Gavilar might want to recruit to his side / reveal his visions to? Admittedly I know nothing about Adrotagia, though I can guess she has something to do with that Amia interlude I haven't read yet. Aesudan (unless she truly is Restares' daughter) seems like a weird fit to me, and I severely doubt Evi faked her death, so I'd like to explore other options.

I like this idea. The question is, what delicious lies are they feasting on?

The detail I bolded seems more important. Who is watching Gavilar? The Ghostbloods (seems likely)? Jasnah (unlikely, but seems almost plausible)? The heralds? (at least 2 of them were at the feast!) I feel as if this is related in some way to the voice in the rhythms. Whoever that was, they knew the Listeners would need an assassin, so they had to have had knowledge of Gavilar's plans. But, would Gavilar even notice a being omniscient enough to speak through the rhythms spying on him? I feel as if he is likely being watched by multiple parties, and he may not have known about all of them. Thoughts? The Sleepless come to mind. If he knew their exact nature, I'd expect Gavilar to demonstrate signs of insectophobia (or, I suppose, cremlinophobia?) but they do have a tendency to spy on people, and it's possible he could know they're watching without him knowing how.

No worries! It's my fault for not thinking to look at the chapters from Mr. T's perspective. I wouldn't have missed that piece of information otherwise. Looking forward to having a discussion about Ishar all the same!

And this is why I asked in the Prologue thread if there were clues of him being there xD oh well

In the Oathbringer Prologue released online by Tor, Eshonai stumbles upon a meeting between Gavilar, Meridas, and four other unnamed people with very limited descriptions, before they are dismissed so he can converse with the adventurous Listener alone. In this post, I will present my thoughts on the identity of one of those guests in particular: the old man in robes. Emphasis mine. Consider these bolded facts together. Gavilar not being at the feast and having no guards at the door implies that this was either an impromptu meeting, or a secret one. In either case, Amaram being present - combined with the information Gavilar reveals to have shortly thereafter - lends credence to these people all being Sons of Honor. As for the other officer and the two women in long dresses, they could be anyone. The one old man in robes, however, is particularly intriguing to me. Having read the comments on Tor and in the Prologue Reaction thread here, it seems most people think the old man in robes is Taravangian, due to the similarity of opinions and methods. I, however, want to challenge that opinion, due to one simple fact. Although Eshonai would not have recognized Taravangian as a king, we should not forget that Mr. T is one. I'm basing a lot of this off memory, but I am relatively certain we have never received a hint that the King of Kharbranth was present on the day Gavilar was assassinated. With how often Jasnah interacted with Mr. T in The Way of Kings, I would have expected a comment on it, at least. Due to this reason alone, I am skeptical. So, what's the next assumption? We know that many male ardents shave their heads and wear long beards, and that most ardents dress in gray robes. Generally, people who are bald and have beards are perceived as old, but I'll take Eshonai describing him as old at face value and assume he truly is. So who is this ardent? Have we seen him before? I can't think of any that fits the description in particular, which is odd, given how important the Kholin family is. So then who is this ardent who may also be a Son of Honor? My immediate thought: Ishar. Unfortunately, this happens shortly after Eshonai is invited into the room... ...so we don't get any more description of the old man to help prove this fact. However, I'm going to explain my thought processes behind this and try to cite as much text as possible to support it. From the Epigraph of Chapter 86 in Words of Radiance: If you're unfamiliar with the theories regarding this statement, one of the most prominent ones is that Taravangian is referring to the Heralds, here. I personally believe this to be the case, especially after this particular scene in Edgedancer: Nale's got quite a big opinion of Ishar. One that, if Ishar turned out to be a traitor, could easily be used to lead Nale astray. Which, at the end of Lift's "battle" with Nale, he comes so close to realizing... ...yet the Herald of Justice blames himself, instead of the guy who sent him on this task of killing Radiants in the first place. Now, some people argue that Radiants are the cause of Desolations, which could very well be the case, when if you look at the chain of events that lead to the True Desolation, it all comes back to Gavilar alone. Sure, he's a proto-Bondsmith, but I don't think it was the cause of his powers. We saw the visions he got through Dalinar (unless they received different ones, which seems unlikely to me). That makes me wonder how he developed his twisted interpretation of the visions. The world is trapped, eh? That seems like a particular interesting way to word it, given the fact that it's Odium who we know to be trapped, and all this talk about bringing back Eshonai's old gods and needing a threat is very clearly pointing in the evil Shard's direction. In fact, this entire statement, a long with others from Gavilar, suggests he's either batchull insane or being severely mislead. Granted, humans do need to be broken in order to become Radiants, but let's pretend, for now, that the King's not crazy. Two things that are particularly noteworthy about Gavilar's conversation with Eshonai are how familiar he is with the Listeners, and just how much information he has that's not in the visions Dalinar received. To provide an example: In this excerpt alone, he demonstrates knowledge about the origins of the Parshendi that you can't even find in the libraries of Kharbranth, as well as an understanding of their politics and some rhythms. Until this scene, we haven't received any clues to him interacting closely with any Parshendi themselves (although I suppose Venli would make a lot of sense, given Eshonai is surprised Gavilar knows her name, and how much involvement Venli had in the return of the Voidbringers). There is one more thing he says, however, that makes me think of Ishar. Emphasis mine. This particular sentence is very intriguing to me. Through Amaram we've learned the Sons of Honor want the Heralds to return, which they believe requires a Desolation, but this is a very different phrase which makes me think he got this piece of information from a Herald directly, since only they are aware of what the other's are doing really. Considering how many other Heralds were present at the feast already (Jezrien and Nale are both witnessed directly, I believe Kalak was there as well and we see evidence of Shallash's destructive tendencies), I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ishar, the one initially responsible for them abandoning the Oathpact, was around as well. We don't know much about the man himself, but I think there's a few things we can infer from what information we do have. Ishar is the patron of the Order of the Bondsmiths, and his attributes are Pious and Guiding. If a Herald like Ishar, who's depiction in chapter titles suggests he's old, balding, and has a large beard, I think it makes a ridiculous amount of sense for him to disguise himself as an Ardent, if he wants to blend in while still influencing events in the world. We have seen various examples of other Heralds attributes being inverted / corrupted, so Ishar seeking a very influential proto-Bondsmith and helping corrupt his interpretations of his visions makes a lot of sense. Especially if we assume that the Traitor epigraph is referring to one of the Heralds, and if we consider Ishar's history of misleading others (looking at you, Nale). Overall, I'm making a lot of assumptions here. Too many, if I'm honest. Still, being a believer of Ishar betraying the Heralds and now working for Odium, I think it makes a huge amount of sense for him to have been guiding Gavilar towards releasing Odium, whether he does so disguised as an Ardent or openly claiming his identity to him. If this is true, and that Ishar is also responsible for Gavilar's deeper knowledge about the Listeners, then I also think it's possible that he... ...could have been this voice. I do like the idea of this being Cultivation trying to intervene with Gavilar's plan via the Rhythms, especially since I'm a believer in Taravangian unknowingly working for her. After all, if Szeth never assassinated Gavilar, then he likely would have never end up serving Mr. T and helping him "prune the weeds." However, since this is described as a voice speaking to the rhythms and not in or through them, I do wonder if it came from someone actually speaking. If so, maybe Ishar, having been dismissed from the chamber before Gavilar and Eshonai talk, remained at the door to overhear what they discussed and realizing that the Listeners being warned severely impacted his plans, and thus decided the best course of action would be to get rid of Gavilar now before he could be nudged off course. A bit of a stretch, I know, but let's talk about it! Do you think the old man could be Ishar? If not, why not? I'd love to have the discussion.

Building a theory now, but it's slightly hinged on one thing: do we have any previous hint at Taravangian being present at Gavilar's assassination? Because that doesn't feel right to me at all. He's the King of Kabranth, which kind of makes him a big deal, so I would expect it to have been commented on by Dalinar or Jasnah at some point throughout the Way of Kings, particularly in the scenes where Jasnah interacted with him.

New AG coming soon mean more Non-BS Credits, I reckon

@Seonid I would love a link to the spec doc, when you have it.

I made some adjustments. For example, I decided to put 2 of each "special" Pokemon in. I believe #1 was the distro I went with, just used another RNG to determine who of the starters got them. EDIT: Ecth was supposed to be Bulbasaur, Bard Squirtle and Bugsy Charmander. With Mage as an Extra, they got Metapod, Dragonair, Kadabra and Arbok, respectively.

Heh

I think every GM has their own method, but I usually make a list of the roles in the game, randomize it 10+ times, put them all next to the player list, and then select the one I think is the most balanced / interesting. As Stick's said, it's not uncommon for us to make a couple minor adjustments, given the fact that RNG doesn't account for who the player's are. For an example, see the below image.

@Aonar Faileas, @A Joe in the Bush How important is it for the player list to be even?

For those who aren't aware, the "Wildcard" game I was participating has finished (eliminators won ) and the votes for who's moving on have been revealed. Once again I got third place, which means I will not be immediately advancing into the Finale, BUT I am the top priority of subbing (pinch hitting), which means if any of the 15 finalists are unable to commit to the game, I will take their slot. Needless to say, I'm hoping someone will need to tag me in because I would love to represent the 17th Shard all the way to the end. I don't think it's likely I'm determined this years Champion, but I'm confident that if given the opportunity, I can probably get third place for a third time This experience has been wonderful, really. I'll try to publish all of my thoughts on it after the Championship is officially finished, but I want to say now that if anyone is interested in being our representative next year, start preparing yourself now. My hope is that you can achieve more than I was able to this year and make our forum proud as well.

A while ago I was asked to give me thoughts on this discussion about competition and never got around to it, so I'll offer my perspective now that I've got some time. Personally I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with playing these games to win. I may be biased since my biggest motivation is victory nine-games-out-of-ten, but that's besides the point. The issue I feel is when decisions are made without first considering how your words and actions could effect others. My philosophy on this has a lot to do with my general philosophy about life. I believe that all conflict in the world can be broken down to a person being unwilling to accommodate another in some way; in putting their own interests above anyone and anything else's. I used to have a lot of trouble with this starting off. A great example of this is a situation involving Orlok and myself in LG23: The Siege of Luthadel. In that game, on the second day, I felt I was being unfairly targeted because I was accumulating votes for no other reason than people considering me a threat. Several players had it in their heads that if I was kept alive, their factions would lose, and thus allied together to get me killed. I reacted very negatively to this because (it being my first faction game) I think it's ridiculous to lynch a villager out of paranoia alone. That and I was genuinely trying to make sure that every faction worked together to eliminate the true threat (the eliminators). As a result, I decided to lie about Seeking my biggest suspicion, Orlok, and finding that he was Spiked, only to save my own skin without ever considering how that would make him feel, especially since it turned out I was wrong. Having seen his reaction in the dead doc after my eventual lynch, I realized the error of my ways. I put my survival over the fun of another player, and that was wrong, even if the reasoning for people voting for me were wrong, too. Had people put themselves in my shoes, or if I had put myself in Orlok's, I believe that game would have been a lot more fun for everyone. In the end, I think that no matter what reason people play these games for, so long as they don't dismiss others and try to empathize with their perspective, we can all have a great time. This aligns perfectly with the concept of not forcing others to play the way you want. I understand how it can be frustrating when someone on your team isn't playing optimally, but I've come to find that something like that can easily be worked around. Rather than antagonize, just try to start a conversation with them. Figure out what they're thinking first before you make any judgments, and even if you come to the conclusion that they are evil, treat them with respect (this applies to any situation when you're pushing someones lynch, too). And more importantly then not participating in arguments yourself, don't sit on the sides lines and say nothing if you see one developing. I think as long as everyone follows this advice, it doesn't matter what your goal is with playing these games. Be altruistic, always, not just in these games, but in real life too. It honestly couldn't be any simpler.

Oh btw I won't be playing, sorry can't handle a QF and I gotta take my retirement seriously hope everyone enjoys, though!

I wonder how that happened...